Mr. T's Intelligence Service and Darkness

[Humph]

Kharbranth an insignificant piece of Roshar in terms of geographical extent and military might, with its king generally held in lower regard by others.   And yet it appears to have the finest intelligence service in all of Roshar.

 

We know Taravangian has been blessed with extraordinary intelligence (when not stupified by the conjoined curse).  We also know that he has long placed value on the gathering of knowledge (the Palanaeum).

 

But consider also the following:

• of all the kingdoms in Roshar, it was Kharbranth that tracked down Szeth in Bavland to use him as a geopolitical tool
• their knowledge of Szeth's background was such they uncovered his father's name, and called him as such ('Szeth-son-Neturo') rather than the name given elsewhere all through the book ('Szeth-son-son-Vallano').  This knowledge could only have been its origins in Shinovar.
• Kharbranth had been shadowing and studying Szeth for a while, unnoticed.  This implies a careful and professional commitment of serious intelligence-gathering resources.
• Mr. T gets relative quick inside intelligence assessments from the Shattered Planes
• Despite the horrors of his secret hospitals, not a word has leaked out to the world. 

 

All this implies a spy service of world-wide extent in the gathering of intelligence, and of extreme competence in safeguarding complete loyalty in those around Mr. T.

 

How does he do it?

 

While Kharbranth is a trading hub, and thus has easy access into many places, it would appear that the finances needed for such a spy service would not be covered simply by tarriffs.  Elsewhere it has been suggested that Mr. T runs the Stormwardens to finance himself, which would make a lot of sense.

 

But his ability to track Szeth down raises another possibility to me -- what if Mr. T employs, or has a working relationship, with Darkness?  And that he used Darkness's preternatural ability to sense the manipulation of stormlight through Honorblade usage to track down Szeth?  In the Jasnah prologue it appears that Darkness was aware of Szeth's existence as Truthless from its very origin -- could Mr. T have gotten his knowledge of Szeth's background that way?

 

Part of the knowledge Mr. T collects are the dying words of vision from his hospitals.  Why would this collection effort be limited to the hospitals?  Could Mr. T's agents (e.g. Darkness) also be doing this throughout Roshar?  Take the vision from chapter 3 of WoK:

 

 

-- Collected on the 4th of Tanates, year 1171, thirty seconds before death.  Subject was a cobbler of some renown.

 

Could this be Ym?  I find it somewhat hard to picture that a hospital of the death and dying would know that the person was a cobbler "of some renown".  This could be taken as evidence that Darkness -- whether he has his own agenda or not -- might be passing field reports on to Mr. T.

 

While spanreeds work to give quick intelligence updates, I wonder if there might also be another avenue of update.  Is it possible that Mr. T has working for him a person with a Transportation bond?  I don't believe that Darkness has shown such, but could there be others who do?

 

 

[Gloom]

There is no doubt that Taravangian has his fingers in a lot of pies. It wouldn't surprise me if he has connections, or at least informants in many of the organizations throughout the realms. It makes sense to me that he would have cooperation from the Ardentia at the least. I wouldn't be surprised if he has connections within the Ghost Bloods as well. It may even be that the Ghost Bloods are a faction of the Ardentia. It's possible that Darkness and Taravangian have come to some accord, but I think it more likely that Taravangian is working with a different Herald entirely. Darkness seems to me to be arrogant, extremely competent, and highly driven. This is not the type of person you play games with, and spying is all about manipulating people, events and information. I think Darkness would find a way to destroy Taravangian after the first time he found out his actions had been manipulated.

 

As far as funding goes, I can almost guarantee that he gets at least some of his funding from the Ardentia itself. The sum he charged Jasnah for the use of the Palanaeum was astronomical, and she still couldn't find what she was really looking for. This leads me to suspect that she wasn't given access to any of the books that the Ardentia would deem heretical or dangerous. The only reason to withhold that knowledge from such a wealthy patron is that he was being compensated to do so. I don't believe that the Ardentia has continued to destroy or corrupt knowledge through to the present, because at some point they would have had to come to the realization that the true history was important for at least some people (them) to know.

 

There is also those who patronize the Palanaeum. The donations required to have full access to the knowledge within is exceedingly expensive. 100 emerald broams was the price that Jasnah paid if I'm not mistaken. Considering that most of the books are cared for by Parshmen, and that most of the scribes are Ardents, the costs to run it really come down to food, water, shelter, and materials.

 

The big expense would be his hospitals and spy networks. I can almost guarantee that he receives charitable contributions from wealthy patrons. In fact, I can almost guarantee it. The reason I say this is that a large number of highly trained medical personnel are trained in Kharbranth and sent out into the world to make their way. Many of those surgeons end up in the employ of Highlords. This is a vital service, and one that Taravangian is surely compensated for. Then there are the surgeons themselves. They pay a premium to learn their skills. It wouldn't surprise me if some of those surgeons are given a scholarship of sorts. I can think of few people more trusted than those you entrust your health, and the health of your family too. In short, Taravangian has not only found a way to have those he spies upon pay him to do so, he also has found a way to place those spies amongst them.

[vikorr]

To Darkness, Justice is everything - more important than stopping a desolation. We see this in the Lift Interlude. What reason then, would Darkness have to allow Szeth to run free? What reason could he possibly have not to bring  Taravangian to justice?

[Moogle]

What reason then, would Darkness have to allow Szeth to run free? What reason could he possibly have not to bring  Taravangian to justice?

 

I imagine because Szeth's Surgebinding will not bring a Desolation down on Roshar like regular Surgebinding will.

 

Also, why would he bring Taravangian to justice? What laws has Taravangian broken? He's king, he makes the law. Taravangian is also working to stop the Desolation (or win the ensuing battle), so I really can't see Taravangian and Darkness being at odds. More likely to be allies, I think.

Edited February 16, 2014 by Moogle

[vikorr]

Oops on the Szeth thing.

 

And even a king can break his own laws.

 

And he's also ordered the assassination of leaders the world over, breaking those countries laws.

 

In terms of High Prince deaths (etc), Taravangian is the equivalent of a world spanning mobster...he may not do the killing himself, but he does order his henchman to.

Edited February 16, 2014 by vikorr

[Aminar]

Anywhere else, this would have looked a whole lot more like a spam topic... That said, I think his intel is more being part of an organization. Szeth wasn't exactly being subtle when he was found. If even one agent was nearby and noticed a string of impossible murders they would probablu notify the rest of the organization.(This meaning I've pretty much been assuming Mr. T is one of the Ghostbloods.

[hoser]

Based on the WoR excerpt, we know that Mr.T is heavily engaged with the stormwardens, who make ideal intelligence agents.  They are presumably somewhat unified in training, if not in organization and able to communicate in writing.  With spanreeds, he would have nearly instantaneous communication over distance. 

Another likely source of intelligence agents is healers.  The finest healers are trained in Kharbranth and I would be amazed if Mr. T did not recruit operatives from their number.  They can also communicate via glyphs. 

[vikorr]

Healers would be the least suspicious group to own spanreeds. Who is going to argue with a surgeon & wife team who says 'we use spanreeds to assist diagnosiis, share discoveries of cures, seek surgical advice' etc? 

 

Stormwardens on the other hand would arouse too much suspicion if they owned spanreeds - but they appear to be trusted advisers - which means they have access to much greater intel.

 

If Mr T controlled both, then the solution is to have the stormwarden 'befriend' the healer.

[Aminar]

Healers would be the least suspicious group to own spanreeds. Who is going to argue with a surgeon & wife team who says 'we use spanreeds to assist diagnosiis, share discoveries of cures, seek surgical advice' etc? 

 

Stormwardens on the other hand would arouse too much suspicion if they owned spanreeds - but they appear to be trusted advisers - which means they have access to much greater intel.

 

If Mr T controlled both, then the solution is to have the stormwarden 'befriend' the healer.

It seems natural that Storm Wardens would have span-reeds. They have to communicate signs from a number of areas to predict a storm(assuming they work off of anything like meteorology. They should be a network unto themselves, and thus would have need and use for spanreeds.

[vikorr]

Stormwardens predict storms based on mathematical calculations.  They write in glyphs (from memory). 

 

A problem with such a 'network need' arised because panreeds are paired. So the only way such a network would function properly at all, would be to have each stormwardens spanreed paired with a centralised set of spanreeds. From that centralised location, reports could then be sent to the appropriate receivers.

 

Even with an East-West (or was it West-East) movement of highstorms, they are obviously wide, and you would still want to notify many people.

 

So, the Kings & High-Princes would know that all the information is centralised...and they know that stormwardens are foreigners...and said foreigners sit in on their meetings / advise them / have access to their lords....they absolutely will want control over what information the stormwardens send & received...

 

...which is so easily solved by having the stormwardens pass & receive messages through the govt operated spanreeds (which will be just as effective as the stormwardens having their own spanreed)

 

So there is no reason at all for a stormwarden to have a spanreed, and every reason for them not to.

 

As I said - it would be suspicious of them to ask for a personal one.

[Humph]

The idea of healers both being a source of financing, and actual operatives really resonates with me.  It has a certain symmetry to it as well.

 

Kharbranth's agents are able to eliminate Szeth's master AND his target prior to Szeth arriving at the mark's location.  Either they had to run the head along to the target location or simply weave a window and step through.  As Szeth didn't lollygaggle on his way, I lean toward the latter -- and that would imply someone with a Transportation bond.

 

And I just realized (duh!) that there was one other 'nation' that uncovered Szeth first to use as a geopolitical tool -- the Parshendi.  They actually seem to have the basis for the best intelligence service of all -- thousands of (potentially at least) telepathic Parshmen operating unhindered under everyone's noses.

 

Could the Parshendi be the means through whom Taravagnian uncovered Szeth?  This would entail some contact or working relationship between the two nations.

[shadewolf]

Uhhh. There seems to be this impression that spanreeds are inherently suspicious and are closely regulated, I doubt this to be true. I believe spanreeds to simply be expensive, that the only ones that would buy them would be those with the means. This is because the upfront cost and the cost to have someone watch the reeds to make sure you know when someone is trying to contact you. That being said, there are too many benefits, that don't entail subterfuge and chicanery, that wouldn't draw immediate suspicion . I believe that the stormwarden would have salaries that would enable them to own spanreed, and what could the lords do, tell you that you can't communicate with you're elderly parents, talk to a friends, make business decisions, not use your own property.

 

Also it's very likely that every 'noble' of sorts has his own network of spies and whatnots equipped with spanreed, Taravangian simply has a better network then the rest. This could be because he employs many of the stormwardens to be his eye's and ears, but something tells me that's only so good, because the general population are superstitious about the stormwardens. 

[vikorr]

No one has said they are closely regulated, nor that they are suspicious.

 

It's not the spanreed that is suspicious - it's the person who wants it Vs motivation & need to have one Vs national interest.

 

Quite frankly, any monarch who allowed a stormwarden access to senstive information, and then allowed him to willy nilly own a spanreed, deserves to have their plans and economy etc undermined. It would be plain stupidity.

 

That said - I can't quite work out why Brandon has written in stormwardens as advisors in the first place - there doesn't appear to be any given justification for it. The only thing I can come up with is that Mr T has trained people not just to be stormwardens, but to be diplomats...and only the top of the class got sent out.

Edited February 17, 2014 by vikorr

[shadewolf]

 

It's not the spanreed that is suspicious - it's the person who wants it Vs motivation & need to have one Vs national interest.

 

There is simply too many mundane uses of spanreeds that mere fact of having one would not automatically throw suspicion on you. As of now spanreed technology is prime to explode. Something like a telegraph service could be easily implemented, it's only a matter of time before someone realizes this and brings it to the common man.

 

 

 

Quite frankly, any monarch who allowed a stormwarden access to senstive information, and then allowed him to willy nilly own a spanreed, deserves to have their plans and economy etc undermined. It would be plain stupidity.

 

If you share sensitive information with anybody, you better make damnation sure the person is allied with you. Also whether you like it or not, people will continuously try to undermine your plans and economy, and its your job to develop smart countermeasures, and counter offenses to deal with them.

 

The fact that we're sitting around debating on the security of trusting stormwardens is more dramatic irony than anything; Monarchs have no real evidence that stormwardens are working against them. This however is however is negated by the following. As a monarch, the rule of thumb is don't trust anyone. A monarch will have plenty of advisers, diplomats, and solicitors that they'll have to interact with. All those people are scheming, quite often against the monarch, but they're all still valuable tools to keep within reach, and must be handled appropriately.

 

Stormwardens seem to be great statisticians as discussed in the lore so far, which might allow for them to be employed to determine proper tax rates for some crop, or tariffs on imports. Could your enemy do damage if said stormwarden was a traitor, yes; but it's your job to surround yourself with men that have vested interest in your proceeding, so they don't turncoat or are noticed by others of your party before great damage can be done. If not yes your nation is going to fail.

Edited February 17, 2014 by shadewolf

[Swimmingly]

The greatest advantage of stormwardens (for a king) is probably that nobody likes them much anyways due to their religiously dubious practices. Need a scapegoat? "Look an intellectual practising an art scraping close to being religiously taboo! He's been using the dark arts of Voidbringing to increase the cost of living!"

[Gloom]

So basically it seems likely that Taravangian receives a large part of his funding from the very hospitals he uses to train surgeons. Surgeons that, at least in some cases he can recruit as agents. It also seems likely that he has at least some ardents in his pocket. If I recall correctly, some of the medical staff in his hospital of death were ardents. It stands to reason that he has other ardents acting as agents. Last we have the stormwardens. We know he works with them, and can assume he has some of them reporting to him as well. This appears to be a very robust spy network.

 

Now, Taravangian can't act on all the information gathered by this network without exposing his spies or himself. Information gathered by medical personnel would need to be verified independently in such a way as to keep suspicion off any of his surgeons because if enough surgeons got caught spying, it would point directly back at Taravangian, or at least Kharbranth, regardless of any pseudonym he may be using. Ardents and stormwardens are more expendable as long as they don't know who their true master is. This still means that he has to have independent agents, like the one that contacted Szeth who owe their loyalty directly to Taravangian. These would be his most expensive assets.

 

Funding for this extensive network of agents likely comes primarily from donations to his hospitals and fees required for training. Seeing as most of his spies are gainfully employed, it's unlikely that many of the spies actually cost a lot to maintain on site. The primary expenses would be in placing them and equipping them with the required communication apparatus. This means that most of the spies would have to believe in what Taravangian is doing, or at least feel an obligation and a sense of loyalty to Taravangian or whatever front or pseudonym he recruited them under. His direct agents would be capable of supplying his on site personnel and removing those who fall under suspicion. They could also supply payment for services rendered and contract outside agents for risky endeavors.

 

This doesn't mean that every stormwarden, ardent, and surgeon is a spy in Taravangians pocket. I'm certain that only a small percentage would actually be in Taravangians employ. What we should be cautious of are those who are placed close to people in power, especially the healers and the stormwardens. With the healers, we can be fairly confident who they owe their loyalty to, but from what I've seen so far, the stormwardens are a pretty mercenary bunch.