Travis1984 Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Ok...so I've tried searching unsuccessfully but when do any of our surge binding characters actually say the first ideal? Dumb question? I'm allowed one per day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arondell Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Ok...so I've tried searching unsuccessfully but when do any of our surge binding characters actually say the first ideal? Dumb question? I'm allowed one per day. Life before death, Strength before weakness, Journey before destination The first ideal is the only one that is common to all ten orders. Kaladin first learns of it from Teft when he was first trying to consciously breathe in stormlight. I don't believe it actually has exactly the same import as the following ideals. It is more like a motto that is supposed to define the Radiants as a whole. Both to themselves and others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 I personally am of the opinion that reaching the first ideal does provide a benefit. I think Kaladin did this when he made the decision for bridge 4 to go back to the Tower to rescue Dalinar. I'm not completely sure how important it is for the words to be verbally spoken. It seems important, but the time that Kaladin did verbally speak the first ideal, it did not seem to mean anything to him. Rather, he was contemplating it. Arondell may be correct though. We just don't know yet. I suspect that we will get a much clearer picture with Shallan since Jasnah is (hopefully?) there to guide her way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis1984 Posted February 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Ok I just wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy because I couldn't remember anyone saying it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardus Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 I'm actually pretty sure It does provide an increase in power, Remember when Kaladin was sticking rocks to the wall in the chasm? I remember him thinking it over. Here is the quote for that part: “Life before death,” he whispered. “Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.” The First Ideal of the Knights Radiant. He breathed in deeply, and a thick jolt of power shot up his arm. His muscles burned with energy, with the desire to move. The tempest spread within, pushing at his skin, causing his blood to pump in a powerful rhythm. He opened his eyes. Glowing smoke rose around him. He was able to contain much of the Light, holding it in by holding his breath. It’s like a storm inside me. It felt as if it would rip him apart. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arondell Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 (edited) In the rock climbing scene it doesn't appear that speaking the ideal alone did anything. The description of the feeling after he inhaled seemed much the same as prior descriptions. Was it a stronger feeling then before or was it just because this was the first time he intentionally infused? The text doesn't make it obviously clear. It certainly wasn't as dramatic as when he later spoke the second ideal. Maybe someone can ask Mr. Sanderson at some point. Edited February 1, 2014 by Arondell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chlehrma Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 I think that with the first ideal, it is something they have to live. He does not seem to fully grasp it until after his meeting with Hoid. Kal does say the words though, repeatedly, as he is trying to figure Things out. I am guessing Galivar figured them out, Dalinar is close. Perhaps in WoR we shall see the others speak or think the words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis1984 Posted February 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 I just think with the fact that both Shallon and Jasnah have actual Spren interaction...they should have both IMO said the first ideal by now...whether or not they know it. Maybe not though. But Jasnah seems pretty "strong" in her abilities to have not said it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chlehrma Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 I just think with the fact that both Shallon and Jasnah have actual Spren interaction...they should have both IMO said the first ideal by now...whether or not they know it. Maybe not though. But Jasnah seems pretty "strong" in her abilities to have not said it. The words are for the path to being a radient. Surgebinding requires a nahel bond only. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musica Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) you know, I thought of something- before the KR Orders were established along with the Ideals, did the Surgebinders have some other way to strenghen and refine their Surgebinding? and if so, why did the forming of the KR made so that a Surebinder was suddenly require to learn the Ideals in order to become nore powerful? or were the original Surgebinder just, as a general rule, more limited in how much Stormlight they could hold and how potent it was? but why? why do the Words grant more power? and do you have to figure the Ideals by yourself, or can you be told what they are? what happens if someone just tells you? maybe it's only the intent behind the Words and wether or not you truly internalize their meaning... what do you think? Edited February 12, 2014 by Dreamer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloom Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 I'm leaning towards the idea of the first ideal being a unifying ideal of the Knights Radiant rather than something that strengthens the Nahel bond. A set of principles that all spren were able to agree upon. On the other hand, if it is a set of principles that all spren were able to agree upon, adopting those principles could effectively bring a person closer in line with what is required to attain the later ideals and thus result in a stronger Nahel bond. Regardless, I don't think that it is a requirement to speak the First Ideal, so much as it is a requirement that you accept and adopt the tenets of the First Ideal in your life. I think it's a starting point from which one begins the journey to Knight Radiant, not a stepping stone to greater power. @Dreamer I think that before the KR Orders were established, most surgebinders existed at a lower level of power. I don't doubt that some stumbled upon those principles that strengthened the bond, but since they weren't codified, they may have varied slightly from person to person, spren to spren. This would have made it very difficult for knowledge to be passed on in any meaningful way. This is why what Nohadon did, however he did it, was so revolutionary as far as I can tell. I don't think telling another surgebinder the words would help. I'm sure this was tried at some point. This is a good reason why Nohadon would use the forty parables rather than just list out the ideals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbauks Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 I think that the First Ideal is different from the rest of the Ideals. I think that each of the other Ideals (2-5) are inherent to the Spren that the Surgebinder is bonded to. That would mean that they are the same for each member of the Order before and after the KR were formed. However, I think that the First Ideal only became the First Ideal after the KR were formed. Before this point, there was no "First Ideal". Some things I noticed: -When Kaladin says the Second Ideal, Syl only asks "Do you know the Words?" She never tells him what the Words are. Nor does she say the Words of the Second Ideal. -Kaladin doesn't know the Words until after he has absorbed Stormlight. (Might be because he wasn't thinking about them. He was more focused on getting to the other side.) -The First Ideal is mentioned in the book Way of Kings. None of the others are. -Nohadon laments "Alas, not all spren are as discerning as Honourspren" when talking about Alakavish. What if Nohadon was trying to do what the Spren could not. What if he was trying to create a Kingdom where regardless of whether someone was bonded to an Honourspren, they would be as honourable as a Windrunner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikorr Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 Syl won't even tell Kaladin the other ideals. She says he will either know them or he won't progress. I dare say that the 40 Parables helped potential Knights Radiant discover their ideals. I doubt any Knight Radiant was ever directly told what they were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 I seriously doubt that repeating the ideals by regurgitation or reading off of a page would have any effect at all. The words of the ideal come into the mind of the KR acolyte, if you will, spontaneously. It is only when this happens that the words of the ideal appear to have any effect. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday Posted February 10, 2014 Report Share Posted February 10, 2014 I seriously doubt that repeating the ideals by regurgitation or reading off of a page would have any effect at all. Certainly true The words of the ideal come into the mind of the KR acolyte, if you will, spontaneously. It is only when this happens that the words of the ideal appear to have any effect. I'm on the fence here. Kaladin repeats the first ideal on several occasions, but only when living it does he appear to gain the initial Surge-binding as Leonardus pointed out. I think that knowing the 40 parables, while not in itself providing any real benefit, can provide a KR acolyte with a map to acting in accordance with Honor. Living the Ideals grants power, so knowing them would enable one to live them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloom Posted February 11, 2014 Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 I think that knowing the 40 parables, while not in itself providing any real benefit, can provide a KR acolyte with a map to acting in accordance with Honor. Living the Ideals grants power, so knowing them would enable one to live them. I would agree with this mostly. The 40 Parables are the key to reaching a higher level of synchronization with each of the different types of spren. If a KR initiate aspires to live up to the appropriate parables, they should find it easier to reach a point where they know the words to speak. I only say mostly because not all Orders are concerned with Honor. This could also lead one to wonder if the words are always the same, or if they vary slightly from person to person within an Order. I imagine that they can and do vary since Kaladin spoke those words in modern Alethi, and the Knights Radiant spoke them in a long lost language. I don't believe that Kaladin spoke Dawn Chant when he said the words. If it can vary by language, it can vary in phrasing as long as it means the same thing to the person saying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbauks Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 I would agree with this mostly. The 40 Parables are the key to reaching a higher level of synchronization with each of the different types of spren. If a KR initiate aspires to live up to the appropriate parables, they should find it easier to reach a point where they know the words to speak. I only say mostly because not all Orders are concerned with Honor. This could also lead one to wonder if the words are always the same, or if they vary slightly from person to person within an Order. I imagine that they can and do vary since Kaladin spoke those words in modern Alethi, and the Knights Radiant spoke them in a long lost language. I don't believe that Kaladin spoke Dawn Chant when he said the words. If it can vary by language, it can vary in phrasing as long as it means the same thing to the person saying it. The only time the origin of the Ideals is mentioned is when Teft says that the Ideals were based on the WoK. But what if it's the other way around? It's strongly implied that Nohadon and/or Karm are Windrunners. What if the WoK is written based on the Ideals and therefore make it easier for KR recruits to reach higher Ideals? What if it was written with the intent that those who read it and follow it have an easier time making the Nahel bond? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 In the rock climbing scene it doesn't appear that speaking the ideal alone did anything. The description of the feeling after he inhaled seemed much the same as prior descriptions. Was it a stronger feeling then before or was it just because this was the first time he intentionally infused? The text doesn't make it obviously clear. It certainly wasn't as dramatic as when he later spoke the second ideal. Maybe someone can ask Mr. Sanderson at some point. It is not clear that the first ideal provides a benefit to Kaladin at this point, but it seems possible. Maybe what happened to Kaladin when he spoke the second ideal is the exception. It seems unlikely, as Jasnah has been Surgebinding for a long time and Lift seems to have reached the second ideal, but what if Kaladin was the first to reach a second ideal in millenia? Maybe what happened with Kaladin was a release of some built up energy that won't be happening for every Radiant and every ideal. Something similar happened to Raoden in Elantris, IIRC. Not saying, just suggesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binnut Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 The only time the origin of the Ideals is mentioned is when Teft says that the Ideals were based on the WoK. But what if it's the other way around? It's strongly implied that Nohadon and/or Karm are Windrunners. What if the WoK is written based on the Ideals and therefore make it easier for KR recruits to reach higher Ideals? What if it was written with the intent that those who read it and follow it have an easier time making the Nahel bond? How are that implied? I have not seen anything about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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