Adolin's Test

[hoser]

I think the duel excerpt shows us Adolin's evolution and challenge.  It is theorized that a form of the Thrill is of Odium.  I imagine the fight for Adolin's soul going on in the duel.  He is being tempted by Odium's influence, but is starting to see another way. 

In tWoK Dalinar moves from feeling an unholy Thrill to fighting while regretting the necessity.   Is Adolin going through the same evolution?

 

Dalinar at the Tower:

He'd killed many of them.  So many. A frightening number, and he did it without the Thrill.  He was hollow inside.  Better that than pleasure.

Adolin in the duel:

Adolin growled, feeling the old Thrill of battle as he shoved aside Salinor’s attack—careless of the hit it scored on his side—

...

He trailed off as Adolin carefully placed a gauntleted hand against his neck. Salinor’s eyes widened. “You wouldn’t.”

Fearspren crawled out of the sand around him.

“My prize,” Adolin said, suddenly feeling drained. The Thrill faded from him. Storms, he’d never before felt like this in a duel.

What do people think?

 

Is Adolin's behavior in the duel influenced by Odium? Is he being tempted?

 

Is the sudden fading of the Thrill due to another, more Honorable influence?

 

What does he mean when he says that "he'd never before felt like this"?

[Mysty]

What does he mean when he says that "he'd never before felt like this"?

It could just mean he never felt the Thrill of battle in a duel before.

 

There are different levels of the Thrill. Remember when Dalinar chases Elhokar up the rock formation before the hunt? Dalinar mentioned feeling the "Thrill of contest" which was not "nearly as keen as the Thrill of battle, but it was a worthy substitute" WoK pg 223, paperback.

[Shardlet]

I agree with Mysty.  Adolin fought this duel differently than previously.  He was brutal.  Lacking artistry and finesse.  He fought as if he were on the battlefield rather than the arena.  As such, I suspect he felt the Thrill that he is used to feeling in battle but is unaccustomed to it in a duel.  This would contrast with the Thrill of Contest as spoken of by Dalinar when he raced Elhokar.  I would expect this to be a more likely form of the Thrill to be felt in a duel.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Shardlet

[bartbug]

Eh. I could see it both ways. Adolin is starting to understand.

[don_karma_II]

Eh. I could see it both ways. Adolin is starting to understand.

('*in a Morpheus Voice) He's beginning to believe!

[hoser]

I agree with Mysty.  Adolin fought this duel differently than previously.  He was brutal.  Lacking artistry and finesse.  He fought as if he were on the battlefield rather than the arena.  As such, I suspect he felt the Thrill that he is used to feeling in battle but is unaccustomed to it in a duel.  This would contrast with the Thrill of Contest as spoken of by Dalinar when he raced Elhokar.  I would expect this to be a more likely form of the Thrill to be felt in a duel.

 

It makes sense that way.  It seemed to me there was a measure of abuse to it that surprised even Adolin.  He seemed to take unnecessary chances in a way that I haven't seen him do on the battlefield as described below. 

They’d come for a spectacle and had instead been given brutality. Well, that was how things often went in war. Good for them to see it, he supposed, though as he ducked back into the waiting room he was uncertain of himself. What he’d done was reckless. Dismissing his Blade? Putting himself in a position where the enemy could have gotten at his feet?

[Meg]

It could just mean he never felt the Thrill of battle in a duel before.

That was exactly what I wondered reading this part: "Is it normal to feel the Thrill in a duel?" I kind of thought that in a duel the Thrill doesn't come up.

I'm curious if we get an answer to this question later on in the book.

 

There are different levels of the Thrill. Remember when Dalinar chases Elhokar up the rock formation before the hunt? Dalinar mentioned feeling the "Thrill of contest" which was not "nearly as keen as the Thrill of battle, but it was a worthy substitute" WoK pg 223, paperback.

I'm not sure I'd call it different levels, but surely there are different types of the Thrill, as your quote perfectly shows.

In "Starfalls" (Ch. 19) when Dalinar was fighting the Midnight Essences, is to be read:

 

The old Thrill, the sense of battle, consumed him. It did not enrage him, as it did some men, but everything seemed to become clearer, crisper. His muscles moved easily; he breathed more deeply. He came alive.

If I understand this right, "the sense of battle" means the "vibe" or "mood" for the battle?

This type of Thrill really seems helpful in battle. What Adolin felt must have been another type because it made him act more brutal than usual in a duel.

[QuantumHarmonix]

I wonder if the different Thrill's are at all related to the Passions?

[Morsk]

If I understand this right, "the sense of battle" means the "vibe" or "mood" for the battle?

I think so. "Sense of battle" is a mental state. "Mood" is for emotional mental states, and sense of battle isn't an emotion. But it's close.

[Meg]

I think so. "Sense of battle" is a mental state. "Mood" is for emotional mental states, and sense of battle isn't an emotion. But it's close.

Thanks Sometimes it's quite difficult to find the right translation so I've got to ask seemingly 'dumb' questions.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

 How many blades and plates will he win before, the opposition realize his true mission, and how many will they loose before he is forced to stop? Does he have a plan for which opponents to target?

THose that are-

• most likely to bet their blades in the match,
• easiest to beat at duels,
• greatest opponent to his father's cause,
• guilty of having insulted him and his father the most/worst,
• specific high prince whose loss of shard would be that more dependent on other to provide shard bearers,
• rich in shards,
• only shard blade wielders, so less experienced in plate fighting as well,
• only shard plate wielders, so less experienced in blade fighting as well,
• only those with both blade and plate

 What happen if he looses his own sword, it would ruin his luck ritual?

 It is said about 30 are at the plains, so that represents 30 duels, but that would never happen. Say each of the nine princes have on average, 3-4 shard bearers. We know one only has one. Some likely only have one or two, others have more than the average. I doubt that there is a high prince with none.

 I am thinking possibly ten, with 15 at the very most, but i am likely over estimating the guy. How often do they they parties/feast, every night? 

 Imagine what a small force of shard bearers could do on plateau assualts, much easier to win. THey would prove the usefulness of a united shard force against the enemy, it would be strong enough to possibly help end the war.

[Ness]

I feel like with 30 sets of shards on the plains, the most Adolin could get away with taking is 5-8.  Which would still give his family a huge advantage over any other group, other than an alliance of highprinces.

[QuantumHarmonix]

Where do we get 30 shards? Does it include the sets belonging to the king? Is it 30 total sets or a mix of plates and blades? 

[hoser]

I think there are some constraints to consider. 

• The Kholins have some solid opposition and some highprinces they hope to win over like Aladar.  I doubt they would want to take the Shards their potential allies have.  If they have nine committed enemies, they are probably dead. 
• Sadeas was planning to start working with two Highprinces, so that probably puts the floor of committed enemies at three. 
• After the debacle at the Tower, I guess they might need 3 allies at least. 
• Sadeas and Amaram seem to be the only Shardbearers in their camp.  In the planning meeting, they were saying that Highprinces were untouchable and Amaram is Dalinar's friend, so they may be out.  That leaves between two and five highprinces to take Shards from. 
• If a highprince has four Shards (a relatively high number) and loses two, I guess they will probably either go to war or knuckle under. 
• That gives a ceiling of ten Shards (two each from five opponents) and a floor around three. So I pretty much agree with Ness. 

I think this tactic will lead to either success or civil war unless something else happens. 

We know that at least Szeth is going to happen, and I can't really tell what the effect will be. 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Slight necro here, but I just found this thread. 

 

I must say that when I read this sample chapter, it actually really worried me for Adolin's character. It gave me great foreboding that he is going to become Odium's champion... being the best duelist in the army, embracing the Thrill and letting it drive him to brutality... 

 

I like him, but this makes me worry for him greatly. 

[makromag]

I don't exactly know why, but I always took Adolin's brutality as a good sign. Before this one, duels were a game to him, a contest, something done for the fun of it. He now connects these duels with his father's efforts for unity and the war on the shattered plain. He doesn't duel for frivolous reasons, he fights for an important cause. As such, he is more driven in battle, leading to the "war"-Thrill.

 

He drew a distinct line between the duels he fought before and the battles he is fighting now.

[WitSpren]

I don't exactly know why, but I always took Adolin's brutality as a good sign. Before this one, duels were a game to him, a contest, something done for the fun of it. He now connects these duels with his father's efforts for unity and the war on the shattered plain. He doesn't duel for frivolous reasons, he fights for an important cause. As such, he is more driven in battle, leading to the "war"-Thrill.

 

He drew a distinct line between the duels he fought before and the battles he is fighting now.

Same here.     He has always enjoyed the Thrill of the Dual.     This time there was still a bit of Thrill, but no enjoyment.

[AerionBFII]

I this is more Adolin getting over the thrill and moving on.

[Dros]

The Radiants knew about the Thrill and figured out a way to avoid it. I imagine the first step in avoiding the Thrill, is recognizing it does something to you that is not desirable. Adolin didn't seem comfortable with what he was feeling, so this might be the first step in him trying to avoid the undesirable side effects that comes with the Thrill.

[johnnycage720]

I thought there was a different form of the thrill called something like "the drive." I read that somewhere and I thought it was WoB but I may be hallucinating as I have gone slightly insane waiting for words of radiance.

[Swimmingly]

It's all speculation. We know Kal is immune to the Thrill, however.

[DocHoliday]

. I imagine the first step in avoiding the Thrill, is recognizing it does something to you that is not desirable. Adolin didn't seem comfortable with what he was feeling, .

I had a conversation tonight about the Thrill and found myself explaining it to a first time reader of WoK, and found something interesting.

 

The Thrill is basically adrenaline. I don't think that any one disputes this?

But then I threw out the definition of Thrill; and a light bulb came on

Thrill:a sensation of excitement and  pleasure. 

This is about more than adrenaline junkies like Sadeas. It's about making the Alethi love fighting. 

 

The KR from Star fall talks about fighting, even against "the enemy" would change an individual, but they know how to stop it.

 

Dalinar himself is enjoying the Thrill in WoK then has a realization of the task brutality of what he is doing, and freezes up.

 

I think what we see in all the above cases is a mental recognition of what they are doing and what this makes them feel, and how the two should not coincide. 

Similar to a Scadrian recognizing that they are being manipulated by Emotional Allowmancy. Once they recognize that what they feel does not add up to what they believe, they have the tool to combat said manipulation.

[el_warko]

The Thrill is basically adrenaline. I don't think that any one disputes this?

 

I read the Thrill as bloodlust, which is a 10 point disadvantage in GURPS

[Seloun]

Adolin seems to think that the Thrill led him to fight sub-optimally in the duel (enough that he goes along with the explanation that he intentionally did that to make other potential opponents underestimate him). We don't really have any reason to think Adolin is reckless in battle (in fact, Dalinar does way crazier stuff); that and Adolin's reaction leads me to believe what happened in the duel wasn't really what he was trying to do (i.e. it's not just because he's taking the duels more seriously).

 

Dalinar does seem to feel the Thrill even when he's doing pretty heroic things (saving Sadeas) and what the Thrill seems to sometimes encourage is something very close to what I would associate with Honor (looking for worthy opponents). It's just taken to an extreme. Maybe the Thrill is something of Honor which was subverted by Odium.

 

Regarding Kaladin being immune to the Thrill, it seems pretty likely it's related to the Second Ideal (at least for Windrunners?) given how very focused Syl is about Kaladin reciting the Second Ideal before engaging in battle (it's interesting to speculate if Kaladin is unconsciously aware of this, i.e. when he avoids sparring with the spear in the chasm). I wonder if this is part of what was somehow built into the Radiants' oaths by Nohadon. This would explain the other vision where the Radiant says everyone with an inclination towards fighting should become a Radiant. That also makes me wonder if the Desolations are somehow tied to the non-Radiant surgebinders (which might explain a lot about Darkness) though the Nohadon vision seems to imply that it isn't the only reason...or is it? Nohadon mentions Alakavish as if it was a coincidence, but it's interesting how he notes that 'our own natures destroy us', which is very similar to what Honor says about what Odium has figured out. Maybe it wasn't a coincidence, after all.

 

Re-reading Nohadon's section also brings up an interesting point (though not really related to the topic) - the Desolation has struck but Nohadon talks about what the Heralds will find when they next return (which seems to imply they did not presage that particular Desolation). When first reading that section I remember (due to that passage) thinking that this occurred after the Prelude chronologically (i.e. the Heralds didn't show up because all but one quit) but upon reflection that contradicts there being no Desolation since the Heralds gave up. The Prelude seems to imply pretty strongly the Heralds' return is connected to the Desolations, so it's unclear if Nohadon's phrasing here is just misleading or if what's going on isn't actually a Desolation (or maybe the Heralds showed up but got killed immediately...).

[WitSpren]

Re-reading Nohadon's section also brings up an interesting point (though not really related to the topic) - the Desolation has struck but Nohadon talks about what the Heralds will find when they next return (which seems to imply they did not presage that particular Desolation). When first reading that section I remember (due to that passage) thinking that this occurred after the Prelude chronologically (i.e. the Heralds didn't show up because all but one quit) but upon reflection that contradicts there being no Desolation since the Heralds gave up. The Prelude seems to imply pretty strongly the Heralds' return is connected to the Desolations, so it's unclear if Nohadon's phrasing here is just misleading or if what's going on isn't actually a Desolation (or maybe the Heralds showed up but got killed immediately...).

I took it to mean that the Haralds had already departed as the fighting was done (maybe all killed as it was a very bad one) and Nohadon was wondering about the next Desolation and how prepared mankind would be with 9 out of 10 dead and all of civilization to rebuild.

 

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