Popular Post BlackYeti Posted September 23, 2016 Popular Post Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 Hello everyone. I expect you’ve all forgotten who I am by now since I haven’t posted here for a couple of years now (save for the odd signing report), life unfortunately got in the way. But I’ve been meaning to come back for a little while now, and I thought: what could be better than doing so with a theory post? Some things have been simmering in the back of my mind for a while now and I need to get them out. Hopefully you don’t hate what follows, and don’t end up wanting nothing to do with me (or tracking me down and lynching me ). So without further ado, allow me to present my first (and hopefully not last) theory. For this theory we need to consider all four of the end pages of the Way of Kings. All of the images that I’ve found of them on the internet separate them out into four different images, however I feel that each chart/map pair is supposed to be taken as a single diagram for reasons that I’ll give below. I’m therefore presenting them both here as they were in the book, and as I think they should be viewed. Quote Quote Much of the speculation surrounding the second chart has been that it pertains to Voidbinding in the same way that the first chart pertains to Surgebinding. I’ve been thinking for a while that this would be a very strange inclusion in the book since we’ve yet to see Voidbinding: it would be much like including a chart for Haemalurgy in the first Mistborn book. Additionally, two of the larger glyphs are not connected to the smaller symbols, which would seem to imply that there would be Voidbinders without powers, which would be weird. It’s also been suggested that it relates to the fabrials in some way, but I don’t see any real similarity between them. There are five types of fabrial that we know of, and no grouping of five in the chart; the fabrials are known to utilize the surges, yet it hasn’t been suggested up until now that the smaller symbols are Surges (at least not that I’ve heard of), and if they are why then are the larger glyphs each connected to two of the smaller ones as with the Radiant Orders? And how do the myriad of spren types used in the fabrials relate to the diagram? In short, I don’t think either of these speculations are correct. I’ve been trying to figure out what this chart is by analysing the symmetry of both charts, starting with the symbols for the Surges in the first chart and their equivalent symbols in the second. The first thing of note here is that the two sets of symbols are distortions of each other: part of each pair is the same, but the other part is opposed. As a result of this, whilst each of the surges has a single axis of reflectional symmetry, the other symbols have no reflectional symmetry but instead have order 2 rotational symmetry. So what does this tell us? Well, by itself, not much; however it was then that I noticed the borders to these images. These are the same for each pair of images, however in the case of the Surgebinding chart the border has been reflected between the two, and in the case of the other chart it has instead been rotated by 180°. In other words: the transformation of the border matches the symmetry of the symbols in their respective charts. This is why I think that these images were placed together as they were in the book for a reason. If they were unrelated and hadn’t been created together (in world), then this pattern wouldn’t be observed, and I think that Brandon presented them to us like this for a reason. The fact that the two charts follow the same internal structure, with one juxtaposed by the map of Roshar in the Physical Realm and the other with the Cognitive version, suggests to me that these two charts are in fact the same chart but pertaining to different Realms. If I may reiterate, the symbols I was discussing earlier are the same but distorted from each other: I propose that they are both symbols for the surges, and that they are distorted because the surges themselves distort between the Realms. Or to put it another way, the powers behave differently in the Cognitive than they do in the Physical. This would mean that the larger set of Symbols in the Second chart also represent the Orders of the Radiants. I think this is supported by the fact that the glyphs in both charts share the same colouring and the same symmetry (1 axis of reflectional symmetry), thus suggesting that they are both representing the same thing (not distorted as with the Surges), but a different glyph is used because it’s a different aspect of the Orders. (It’s worth noting though that the Cognitive glyph for the Truthwatchers is unique in that the symmetry does change: it not only gains a second axis of reflectional symmetry, but it also gains order 2 rotational symmetry. I have no idea why this is the case, but with this in mind we should probably keep an eye on Renarin going forward: something is going on here.) The final thing to note with regard to the charts is that the connections between symbols are identical in both charts, save for one glaring difference. There are no connections from either the Bondsmiths or the Truthwatchers, to any of the Surges in the Cognitive chart. This would imply that if members of either Order were to end up in Shadesmar, then they would not gain other abilities related to the Cognitive, unlike for every other Order. But why would these two Orders be so much more limited? Well, I don’t think they are; I think instead that they are just aligned differently Realmatically. Consider what we’ve seen of Renarin and how it pertains to the Truthwatchers. We know that they have some capacity for future sight; however their Surges are Progression and Illumination, which (from what we have seen of those Surges elsewhere) have nothing to do with that ability. However we know that seeing the future is related to the Spiritual Realm, so it would follow that the Truthwatchers gain additional powers from their Surges, not in the Cognitive Realm like other Orders, but instead in the Spiritual Realm. Similarly, the Bondsmiths are speculated to have powers related to Bonds, which are a type of Connection. And we know that Connection is also related to the Spiritual Realm. So whilst the other Orders are aligned with the Physical and Cognitive Realms, Truthwatchers and Bondsmiths are instead aligned with the Physical and Spiritual Realms. And this means that Brandon must be hiding a third chart from us: the Spiritual Surgebinding chart. I was looking for textual evidence to support this theory when I remembered Jasnah’s plight from Words of Radiance. As we know she used the Transportation surge to escape into Shadesmar at which point she became trapped. But if the Surges behave identically in both Realms, why could she not just use it the exact same way to return to the Physical? We know from her unpublished scene that it’s not because she lacked the Stormlight to do so but rather because she needs a “junction”, such as Honour’s Perpendicularity, to do so. This sounds exactly like how someone without access to the Surge of Transportation would travel between the Realms, yet we saw that when she did rematerialize in the Physical she did not do so in a Shardpool, but rather in the middle of nowhere. This suggests to me that she did use Transportation, but it behaved differently, exactly as I proposed above. Which leads of course to the question of what the Surge is doing in the Cognitive, and I do have a suggestion for this. We know that the Cognitive Realm is far more malleable than the Physical in terms of its geometry; it is after all shaped by the level of cognition in a particular area. I suggest that the Transportation Surge is capable of distorting it even further to the point that two different locations can actually overlap one another. With this in mind, after arriving in Shadesmar, the Elsecaller (or Willshaper) could travel to either the nearest junction, or to their destination in Shadesmar (whichever is closest). Then they could overlap their destination with the junction and thereby leave via the junction, but arrive at their destination in the Physical. There is an apparent problem with this however: it would mean that you would be required to travel through Shadesmar without the aid of the Surge to an extent, and as such it doesn’t allow for instantaneous teleportation. The Oathgates on the other hand, which we theorize to be fabrials that utilize Transportation, appear to do exactly this, thus contradicting my speculation. But, looking at this more deeply, I think there’s a way that it doesn’t have to be a contradiction. We know that each Kingdom had one Oathgate, plus there was an Oathgate at Urithiru; moreover each of the Kingdoms' Oathgates connected to the one at Urithiru, but not to each other. Travel via the Oathgates therefore, necessitates travel through Urithiru. This seems like a bizarre limitation to intentionally build into the system, especially for an organization that put such an emphasis on freedom of travel. I know that it’s been suggested that it was set up this way for the purposes of taxation, or as a symbol of some kind, but I think otherwise. What if Urithiru was built upon a junction? If this were the case then it would instantly work with my theory: every time you use the Oathgate you are already at one of the two places that you would need to be at. It also means that the gates were set up this way out of necessity: it would have been impossible to connect every gate to every other gate. And at this point I remembered the epigraph from chapter 35 of The Way of Kings: Quote “Though many wished Urithiru to be built in Alethela, it was obvious that it could not be. And so it was that we asked for it to be placed westward, in the place nearest to Honor.” “The place nearest to Honour” sounds to me exactly like Honour’s Perpendicularity, which we know from Ivory’s testimony to be a junction. The first sentence also takes on greater meaning if this theory is true. If Urithiru is to be the centre of the Oathgate system, then it has to be built on a Perpendicularity. If there isn’t a Perpendicularity in Alethela, then it cannot be built in Alethela. Problems With the Theory Why couldn’t Jasnah use this second method to leave Shadesmar immediately? This is a huge gaping hole in the theory, and my only possible explanation for it is that she was simply too inexperienced with the Surge, or that she wasn’t at a high enough level in the Elsecallers at that point to be able to manipulate the Surge in that fashion. Ivory knew this so stated it as impossible for her to leave without being at a junction. I’ve been assuming, based upon Ivory’s testimony that a Perpendicularity is a junction, that the two are equivalent; however this isn’t necessarily true. Even if all Perpendicularities are junctions, this does not necessarily imply that all junctions are Perpendicularities. Therefore, there could have been something special about that location in which Jasnah reappeared, that meant that it was a junction even though there was apparently no Perpendicularity there. Therefore, this is not necessarily evidence for my theory. Jasnah’s subsequent conversation with Wit makes me think that it is unlikely that the location was special though. In Jasnah’s unpublished scene, we see Jasnah perform Soulcasting within Shadesmar, and it appears to function exactly like every other Soulcasting we’ve seen performed in the books. The only thing that I can think to explain this is that, since we know that performing a magic will have some effect across all three Realms, we saw the results of the Soulcasting as it appeared in the Physical Realm only. Something else would have occurred in the Cognitive Realm when she did this; but since Brandon stopped the reading at the exact point that we would have found out what this was, we can only speculate on it. Conclusion/TL;DR The mystery chart from the back of The Way of Kings is a Surgebinding chart for the Cognitive Realm. Each Surge Functions differently between the Physical Realm, the Cognitive Realm, and the Spiritual Realm. All Orders have powers associated with both the Physical and Cognitive Realms, except for the Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers which instead have posers associated with both the Physical and Spiritual Realms. The Transportation Surge allows for both travel into the Cognitive Realm, and the distortion of the Cognitive Realm’s geometry. Each Oathgate is connected to the central Oathgate at Urithiru out of necessity, not choice. Urithiru is built upon Honour’s Perpendicularity. 48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugsy Posted September 23, 2016 Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 (edited) That's... wow. That theory looks like a lot of work went into it, and it actually makes a lot of sense. I need to think about this some more to see if I notice any inconsistencies, but if it holds up, do you mind if I espouse it? Oh, and kudos on the design analysis as well. I would never have noticed the rotational symmetry in the borders. Edited September 23, 2016 by Bugsy6912 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackYeti Posted September 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2016 @Bugsy6912 Thank you so much for the kind words, it really means a lot to hear that you like it (and don't just think that I'm a bit crazy, which it kind of what I feared a bit when I saw just how big it had become). I don't mind if you were to espouse it, I'd be delighted in fact. But absolutely check for inconsistencies first, I did my best to avoid them but it grew very large and I could easily have missed something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParadoxicalZen Posted September 24, 2016 Report Share Posted September 24, 2016 (edited) IIRC, the only reason the Oathgates go via Urithiru at present is because Shallan states there are some kind of locks in place barring travel to the other Oathgates but I like it! Edited September 24, 2016 by AnanasSpren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardbearer Posted September 24, 2016 Report Share Posted September 24, 2016 It's an interesting theory, and it seems to have some merit to it. However, can someone please explain to me the rotational symmetry in the borders, because I don't see it. Both set's of borders look to me to have the exact same symmetry. If you folded these pages together, the borders would match where the pages meet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argel Posted September 24, 2016 Report Share Posted September 24, 2016 4 hours ago, BlackYeti said: Why couldn’t Jasnah use this second method to leave Shadesmar immediately? This is a huge gaping hole in the theory, and my only possible explanation for it is that she was simply too inexperienced with the Surge, or that she wasn’t at a high enough level in the Elsecallers at that point to be able to manipulate the Surge in that fashion. Ivory knew this so stated it as impossible for her to leave without being at a junction. We have a WoB that Jasnah is inexperienced (emphasis added): Quote QUESTION Is Jasnah still alive at the end of the book, since the whole scene where she kind of appears... BRANDON SANDERSON Yes, she is. ARGENT Why does she take so long to come back? BRANDON SANDERSON Because Elsecalling is not precise even if you know what you are doing, which she doesn't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegatorgirl00 Posted September 24, 2016 Report Share Posted September 24, 2016 1 hour ago, Shardbearer said: It's an interesting theory, and it seems to have some merit to it. However, can someone please explain to me the rotational symmetry in the borders, because I don't see it. Both set's of borders look to me to have the exact same symmetry. If you folded these pages together, the borders would match where the pages meet. If you look closely at the woman's safehand, it's rotated. Here's a closer image of the place where they would fold over. Spoiler for size. Spoiler 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenod Posted September 24, 2016 Report Share Posted September 24, 2016 Great theory. I think that the solution for problem 3 could be that it didn't change because the Soulcasting we have seen has alsways been done from the Cognitive Realm, not the Physical Realm. Perhaps Jasnah can Soulcast from the Physical, but everything we have seen still worked by having the mind of the Soulcaster in question be moved to the Cognitive Realm, making Soulcasting while being in the Cognitive Realm with your mind the same as Soulcasting while being in the Cognitive Realm in the flesh. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackYeti Posted September 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2016 21 hours ago, AnanasSpren said: IIRC, the only reason the Oathgates go via Urithiru at present is because Shallan states there are some kind of locks in place barring travel to the other Oathgates but I like it! Firstly let me say that I’m really glad that you like it, and also thank you very much for your feedback. With that being said, I don’t think that this is much of a problem with regard to my theory. Whilst I may have jumped the gun a little by saying that we know that the system works the way I states (since now that I think about it I can’t remember ever hearing it be confirmed explicitly), it is nevertheless very strongly implied that it works the way that I stated, and as such I feel fairly confident to use it in the theory like this. Consider the following description of the Oathgate at Urithiru from Chapter 87 of Words of Radiance: Quote The field was ringed by ten columnar plateaus, with steps winding around their bases. The Oathgates. From this it seems clear that each of these plateaus is paired with one of the Kingdoms’ Oathgates, and the Oathgate you would travel to would be determined by which plateau you were on when activating it. In fact I was probably wrong to state that there was an Oathgate at Urithiru in addition to the ones in the ten Kingdoms, when really each pair of plateaus is an Oathgate, not a single plateau (so there are 10 Oathgates in total, not 11). If this isn’t enough to convince you, let me remind you that the Radiants reportedly taxed people for travelling through Urithiru (at least later on in the timeline). This doesn’t make much sense unless we concede that travel through the Oathgate meant travel through Urithiru, and that they were therefore taxing use of the Oathgates. With all that being said, you are absolutely correct that the other Oathgates have been locked: they did try to travel to them from Urithiru and were unable to. @Argel Thanks very much for the WoB, this makes my attempted justification for this seem a lot more likely. 13 hours ago, kenod said: Great theory. I think that the solution for problem 3 could be that it didn't change because the Soulcasting we have seen has alsways been done from the Cognitive Realm, not the Physical Realm. Perhaps Jasnah can Soulcast from the Physical, but everything we have seen still worked by having the mind of the Soulcaster in question be moved to the Cognitive Realm, making Soulcasting while being in the Cognitive Realm with your mind the same as Soulcasting while being in the Cognitive Realm in the flesh. Thanks, I like your idea and do think that it makes a lot of sense. That being said, I did consider this when working on the theory and ultimately decided that I liked the idea of the powers working on the different Realms at the same time more. When Jasnah (or Shallan) Soulcasts, there has always been an effect in the Physical Realm, it would make sense for there to have been another effect in the Cognitive Realm that we weren’t aware of, for each of those Soulcasts. Additionally, since a part of the theory involves powers in the Spiritual Realm, and travel to the Spiritual is still a bit of a question mark at this point, I thought setting it up this way would allow those powers to still happen with the effects being observed as they propagate down to the Physical. I’m still a little unsure regarding the exact mechanism of these Realmatic interactions, (hence why I placed this in the Problems section) so I would rate this as a very strong alternative, but I think for the time being I’ll stick with the rationalization I stated above. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1stBondsmith Posted September 26, 2016 Report Share Posted September 26, 2016 @BlackYeti, This appears to be very well thought out. It is strongly tangential to theories I have been working on. I had a couple of observations that the glyph crackers and the Order buffs might like to pursue. In addition to the bilateral symmetry, and the 2nd order on the Truthwatchers, the larger glyphs appear to have a dual point symmetry. Specifically, when an artist pick the horizon point of a picture. that point is used to establish all parallel lines and curve directions. It is a critical part of technical illustration. In the original glyph for the Orders is given a horizon at the midplane, then -not one but two- points are selected as the infinity point, the glyphs very nearly represent what we see in the Cognitive chart. Make the lines have a thickness, and bend the lines to the infinite horizon point, and they are very close to the same. Having these lines go to a point in the sky, rather than the horizontal plane is not artiscally correct, and seems to very indicative of the way the sky in Shadesmar is always described. To me this is some validation of the glyph theory. I am going to work on this some more in my spare time, which is rare, and than start a new post, but I very much like the border as the key to the orders and powers, and the Cognitive rather than the Voidbringer's chart. Additionally, Your explanation of the Exceptions for the two orders mentioned seems well thought and plausible. I had been wondering if the bonds might not also describe spren powers, which is why Renarin and Dalinar will not be carrying live spren swords. Thanks for the jump in observation! Have a big upvote! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackYeti Posted September 26, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2016 @1stBondsmith What an insightful comment. I didn't knnow what you said about the dual point symmetry (it certainly didn't come up in my mollecular symetry class), you taught me something here. I'll have to read up on this, and give it a think, but it sounds really promising. And as for the the point on the Shardblades, I hadn't even considered that this might be due to Realmatic interactions . I'd assumed that the Stormfather wouldn't become one, simply because he was throwing a tantrum. This would make so much more sense though. I have a question however: what's your basis for assuming that Renarin also won't get a sprenblade? Is there already speculation to this effect that I've missed, or are you making the connection now based off of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1stBondsmith Posted September 26, 2016 Report Share Posted September 26, 2016 To clarify the symmetry question- Draw a horizontal line for the inflection plane (for artists, this is flat ground. Then, by picking any point above that plane as the infinite reference, all parallel lines leading away from the viewer fo to that point. All perspective shots use this as a construct. Now instead of only one infinite point, place one below the plane directly mirroring the first. It would be like the chapter heading picture of Shadesmar mirrored downward. Now, take the Surgebinding glyphs, and bend them towards the horizon (with a little artistic leeway,) and you get the "Cognative" glyphs. Most of my connection to Renarin not getting a live blade is from your observations, but also in his apparent inability to engage in battle. I think this is really fighting the spren he has bonded to. We will likely get more of this shortly. Dalinar can fight, (and well), but as a Bondsmith he will not use a shardblade, nor remain bonded to a dead one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted September 27, 2016 Report Share Posted September 27, 2016 (edited) I thought Stormfather would not allow himself to become "trapped" - i.e. leave the cognitive - not because of the fact that he cannot, but because he's unique/more important. Having Cusicesh (same level as Stormfather) seen by the people in the physical I think it means that he's one of the spren that was bonded by a Bondsmith in the past, which became trapped. Assuming *all* KR spren are "trapped" in shards I think it's a big fallacy. But this theory I think is very correct in the assumption that the chart is surgebinding in shadesmar, for the simple reason that there are 10 icons on it (10 orders and 10 surges). 10 is Honor's number. Odium's number is 9. Edited September 27, 2016 by marianmi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argel Posted September 27, 2016 Report Share Posted September 27, 2016 1 hour ago, marianmi said: Having Cusicesh (same level as Stormfather) Pretty sure there is a WoB that puts Cusicesh and the other Unmade a step-below the Nightwatcher and the Stormfather. It's also really important to keep in mind the Stormfather is a sliver while the rest are splinters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted September 27, 2016 Report Share Posted September 27, 2016 (edited) A sliver doesn't have power (or a lot of power). Stormfather is not a sliver. i think that the rider of storms was a splinter, and he somehow got, hm, that shadow of honor (what you call sliver, but which actually is only the cognitive aspect of the sliver), becoming the stormfather. But I think he's more of a splinter. I don't think nahel bonds can be made with slivers, since slivers already have a physical aspect. Edited September 27, 2016 by marianmi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeskarKomrk Posted September 27, 2016 Report Share Posted September 27, 2016 1 hour ago, marianmi said: A sliver doesn't have power (or a lot of power). Stormfather is not a sliver. i think that the rider of storms was a splinter, and he somehow got, hm, that shadow of honor (what you call sliver, but which actually is only the cognitive aspect of the sliver), becoming the stormfather. But I think he's more of a splinter. I don't think nahel bonds can be made with slivers, since slivers already have a physical aspect. A Sliver is someone who once held a large amount of power but no longer does. Tanavast, after holding Honor and then it being Splintered, would definitely be a Sliver. It seems like you're saying that because it's only his Cognitive Shadow, he no longer qualifies as a Sliver. However, I think that the Cognitive aspect of him would still have a lot of the knowledge/residue of his time as a Shard, and therefore would be referred to as a Sliver. Secret History spoilers: Spoiler This is similar to how Kelsier is referred to as a Sliver despite being a Cognitive Shadow during the time he held Preservation. Additionally, according to the Coppermind, the Stormfather self-identified as a Sliver. I don't remember when this happened (and it isn't cited), but I'm guessing it's at the end of WoR. So I would say, based on those, that Tanavast's Shadow was definitely a Sliver, and therefore the Stormfather is as well. He is both a Splinter and a Sliver. On another note, I'm not sure why you think that Odium's "special number" is nine, but I'd be interested in hearing about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted September 27, 2016 Report Share Posted September 27, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, BeskarKomrk said: On another note, I'm not sure why you think that Odium's "special number" is nine, but I'd be interested in hearing about it. On each planet, there's a "special" number corresponding to each shard. That number is 1-16. Can't remember where I saw a list proposed with each shard number, for Odium it was proposed #9. That number it's not cannon, but Odium does have a "special" number, and I bet that's the number of Unmade (according to WoB, unmade are NOT 10). Honor's number is 10 of course. Edited September 27, 2016 by marianmi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_of_Awesome Posted September 27, 2016 Report Share Posted September 27, 2016 2 hours ago, marianmi said: On each planet, there's a "special" number corresponding to each shard. That number is 1-16. Can't remember where I saw a list proposed with each shard number, for Odium it was proposed #9. That number it's not cannon, but Odium does have a "special" number, and I bet that's the number of Unmade (according to WoB, unmade are NOT 10). Honor's number is 10 of course. That... explains a lot, actually. Always wondered why Roshar is partial to 9 and 10. I agree that 9 would be Odium's number, as there were 10 original orders, but 9 disbanded; there were 10 Heralds, but 9 stayed away from Damnation; and now "Odium reigns". Maybe the year cycle is also effected? 9 months with highstorms, but 10 in total? Maybe the 10th month is the one with the Weeping? Maybe 9 is Cultivation's number? Just in case Odium's 9 doesn't work out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 33 minutes ago, Lord_of_Awesome said: That... explains a lot, actually. Always wondered why Roshar is partial to 9 and 10. I agree that 9 would be Odium's number, as there were 10 original orders, but 9 disbanded; there were 10 Heralds, but 9 stayed away from Damnation; and now "Odium reigns". Maybe the year cycle is also effected? 9 months with highstorms, but 10 in total? Maybe the 10th month is the one with the Weeping? Maybe 9 is Cultivation's number? Just in case Odium's 9 doesn't work out. Weepings are only 4 weeks long, around the first and last 2 weeks of a year. Also, every other weeping has a highstorm in the middle so I think overall that it can be said that every month does have at least one highstorm. Nonetheless, your other points about the number nine do make sense. Would possibly make sense to be Odium's number since he was likely influencing the Heralds and Radiants to some slight degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 13 hours ago, BeskarKomrk said: Secret History spoilers: Reveal hidden contents This is similar to how Kelsier is referred to as a Sliver despite being a Cognitive Shadow during the time he held Preservation. Additionally, according to the Coppermind, the Stormfather self-identified as a Sliver. I don't remember when this happened (and it isn't cited), but I'm guessing it's at the end of WoR. So I would say, based on those, that Tanavast's Shadow was definitely a Sliver, and therefore the Stormfather is as well. He is both a Splinter and a Sliver. On another note, I'm not sure why you think that Odium's "special number" is nine, but I'd be interested in hearing about it. I think we actually knew that before Secret History from a WOB. Yes, it's the end of WOR - Chapter 82: Quote “I am the sliver of Him that remains. I saw His corpse, saw Him die when Odium murdered Him. And I… I fled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1stBondsmith Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 (edited) To bring this back on track... I've been studying the charts some more and I think that @BlackYeti is on solid ground here with the Cognitive (Shadesmar) surgebinding chart. As Brandon likes to give us world with real world science mixed in, here are some thoughts on the cognitive realm that might help this make sense. Consider: 1. We know that space has different bounds and areas of less cognition are smaller space in Shadesmar vs. the Physical realm. 2. With a spherical bending of space, specifically instead of three or two dimensional planar space, we have space represented as a "bent back on itself" space where straight lines connect to themselves at infinity. This is a common representation of a 4th dimensional or even more dimensional train of thought. I do not want other physicists to argue the representation, as I know these are endless topics for decades, but I want you to consider if Brandon and his illustrators want us to see this as a different dimensional plane, we have a lot of clues here. 1. All the lines in the sky going to one point 2. spheres representing the tangible ideas of objects, 3. the spherical shape of all the glyphs, 4. the point symmetry to the glyphs, 4. Kelsier's ability to cross the plane and have a tie to the plane still. Gravity still pushed him to the plane from below implying a spherical plane symmetry. 3. Travel there is very relativistic, with cognitively active areas taking up space, and other areas not. This also implies other dimensional representation. (like a Thought =Space direct or secondary correlation), and thus transcends planetary boundaries. I would assume this is true for the Spiritual Realm as well. This is a strong train of thought and needs to be considered more. There is a lot to add, but I really like the connotations. It gives a good scientific flavor to the Realmatic Theory. PS. This would be a more complete picture with a spiritual chart of surgebinding. Imagine the lines and connections we would see and not see that would give a three-plane view of surgebinging. I think I will make this someday when we get the surge connections completed. WOW! Brandon is very cool to have thought of this from way back when! Simply astounding! Edited September 28, 2016 by 1stBondsmith Spelling and PS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argel Posted September 28, 2016 Report Share Posted September 28, 2016 On 9/27/2016 at 4:48 PM, marianmi said: On each planet, there's a "special" number corresponding to each shard. That number is 1-16. Can't remember where I saw a list proposed with each shard number, for Odium it was proposed #9. That number it's not cannon, but Odium does have a "special" number, and I bet that's the number of Unmade (according to WoB, unmade are NOT 10). Honor's number is 10 of course. Is there a WoB on that? I don't think that's the case, especially given what we know about Mistborn Spoiler: Quote Preservation's choice of 16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted September 29, 2016 Report Share Posted September 29, 2016 Why is that not the case? Here;s the theory proposed by @Tempus - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted September 29, 2016 Report Share Posted September 29, 2016 Actually seems the facts seems more to point with "shardworld number" than "shard number" but this indeed a not strictly rule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted September 29, 2016 Report Share Posted September 29, 2016 The discussion on the Shards' numbers should probably belong to its own thread. As for the theory, I like it a lot. Also, I have a tiny bit of additional information I cannot share with you, but it also fits this theory. So good job, this is now my officially espoused theory on what that second chart is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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