Numuhukumakiakiaialunamor Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 Hi all. This is my first post on the forum. I just read the Eshonai interlude from Words of Radiance. This sentence in particular stood out to me. "she and the others had ordered the murder of their king in a desperate gambit to stop the Parshendi gods from returning. Well, that hadn’t worked out." That got me wondering: who are the Parshendi gods, why would they want to keep them from returning, and why would killing Gavilar have anything to do with preventing their return? I have a theory that might sound a little ridiculous, but it makes some sense. I think that the Parshendi might have worshipped the Radiants. Here's why. First, if my understanding is correct, Gavilar was attempting to restore the Radiants. I'm not sure where I heard this, but it was somewhere on this forum, and it makes sense, though I could be wrong. It would make sense if the Radiants were the Parshendi gods for them to try to kill Gavilar to prevent their return. Furthermore, the way the Parshendi reacted to Kaladin in the final battle when he began to glow is further evidence that the Parshendi may have feared and worshipped them. I could be completely wrong on this, but it makes sense to me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinpoint Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 (edited) I was thinking Odium or the Radiants Edit: oops I meant to say Heralds Edited December 30, 2013 by Pinpoint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cayden Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 Im not sure if I agree that the gods are the Radiants, Heralds I could understand, same as Odium, but the Radiants? doesnt quite fit as well. But bear in mind we're pretty sure to an extent that the Heralds have been doing a certain degree of manipulating, there were several of them at the peace treaties signing. Its possible that they know that Odium would return if certain criteria were met. Im not sure if surgebinding or the Knights Radiant would be enough to spark that off, but we know so little about what was happening before the assassination. Galivar could have done so many things to spark it off. Also regarding Kaladin, I think the reason they were so amazed is that there legends likely speak of surgebinding as well as their own version of it, I think that might be what Stormform allows. It would kinda like hearing tales from the Bible all your life, then seeing someone walk on water after he's finished giving you and your army a pounding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numuhukumakiakiaialunamor Posted December 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 I'm not saying that the radiants are actually gods, merely that the Parshendi may worshipped them as gods. The Parshendi seem to be a relatively uncivilized people, so they could have seen the radiants and their been so awed at their power that they assumed them to be gods. I'm probably wrong though as I didn't do much research on the subject Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinpoint Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 Maybe that is why they were in such awe when they saw Kaladin? Maybe they saw that as their Gods returning. However, the Heralds were "awesome" as well weren't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Count Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 I think the Parshendi gods are probably the Voidbringers (or maybe the Unmade) rather than the Heralds.... If Gavilar was trying to return Radiants / Surgebinding to the world then the Parshendi may have had the same fears that Darkness has regarding the use of surgebinding powers. That could well be motivation enough to order the assassination. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikorr Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 (edited) I see a few problems with the Knights Radiant being their 'gods' 1. The Parshendi possess shardsets (armour & blade) - which the Knights Radians possessed 1a. Dalinar et al in Shardsets would look very similar to KR, but they try to kill them 2. The Parshendi are believed to be related to the voidbringers 3. The Shattered plains, from the air, appears to be almost an arcane pattern (seen in Kaladin's dream) 4. The back cover of WoR (which has been revealed) suggest other than the Knights Radiant. In relation to the Parshendi calling Kaladin 'Neshua Kadal' - I always figured that was a title from a prophecy or some such. I would have thought it was their name for 'Windrunner', but it doesn't really fit with their reaction vs a Windrunner's abilities - the fear is much more akin to a reaction to prophecy (which admittedly doesn't greatly with the prophecy limitations on Roshar). Edit : if their Gods were Odium related - they may well have tried to prevent Gavilar from returning the Knights Radiant to existance. Edited December 30, 2013 by vikorr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinpoint Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 Assuming that Their reaction was because of a prophecy Their gods are the Voidbringers Surgbinders will bring desolation Then could the Parshendi have believed that their gods were returning? ...She and the others had ordered the murder of their king in a desperate gambit to stop the Parshendi gods from returning. Well, that hadn’t worked out. Do they think their gods are back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasukerinnegan Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 (edited) I am nearly sure that the Parshendi gods are the Void spren, not the Voidbringers themselves. Binding these Void Spren gives them the power of Voidbinding which in turn may also corrupt them. The Alethi think that the Parshendi gods are the Chasmfiends. This is because of a simple misunderstanding: they worship the spren inside the Chasmfiend, not the Chasmfiend themselves. Also I believe that the voidspren are similar/related/corrupted versions of the spren inside the Chasmfiend. If Eshonai had encountered the voidspren which formed the thunderclast in Dalinar's vision, she would definitely have considered it to be one of the "Parshendi gods". I believe these spren are Odium's lieutenants something like what perhaps the Dawnsingers were to the Almighty. Darkness believes that the return of Radiants would also cause the return of Voidbringers to the world. Eshonai might believe the same thing. Maybe that is what Gavilar told her i.e he would return the Radiants to the world. Edited December 30, 2013 by Sasukerinnegan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisapx Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 I allways thought that the Parshendi/Parshmen were something like the foot soldiers of the Voidbringers, but the Parshmen were somehow culled over the years due to mankind slavery. But it's strange because from Dalinar PoV they have their own type of society and sense of honour. Maybe because they resembled the voidbringers they were dispised, and doomed to slavery. Just playing both sides of the coin here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikorr Posted December 30, 2013 Report Share Posted December 30, 2013 This is because of a simple misunderstanding: they worship the spren inside the Chasmfiend, not the Chasmfiend themselves. Aren't they trying to prevent the return of their gods? The spren inside the Chasmfiends already exist. And in the Eshonai Reading, they Parshendi fled their gods - coming to where the Chasmfiends were : They named it Neurock, exile, for it was where they had come to be separated from their gods That said - I think what we are looking at here is something quite remarkable. The Parshendi have separated themselves from their gods just as 'the final desolation has arrived'. And Honor seems to worry that the Humans won't be able to stand against the Everstorm -but it's obvious that the books have to go on, so... ...with the Parshendi separating themselves from their gods, and apparently related to bringing no voidbringers - who appear whenever a desolation occurs....could the Parshendi be necessary to their gods to bringing on the Everstorm? And Dalinar, in uniting the High Princes, may force them back to their gods. It could be the crux of WoR. With Kaladin (who appears to have the greatest empathy for the Parshendi, and who appears to be the object of their Prophecies, or some such) playing a central role in the survival of the Parshendi, and perhaps by extension, the Human race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisapx Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 I don't think Dalinar will persue war for much longer, he also saw the Parshendi in a diferent light(I'm talking about that part when he tried to stop the klling of that young parshendi, and the talk about the codes) I like to believe that Dalinar his changing, slowly but surely turning into a person more like Kaladin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinpoint Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 They named it Neurock, exile, for it was where they had come to be separated from their gods and where would we find a place that is geographically different or separate from the stony, rocky plains? Shinovar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasukerinnegan Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 Quote This is because of a simple misunderstanding: they worship the spren inside the Chasmfiend, not the Chasmfiend themselves. Aren't they trying to prevent the return of their gods? The spren inside the Chasmfiends already exist. And in the Eshonai Reading, they Parshendi fled their gods - coming to where the Chasmfiends were : Quote They named it Neurock, exile, for it was where they had come to be separated from their gods Sorry I've not been clear about my theory. The Chasmspren are related to the Voidspren who are the actual Parshendi gods. Something like how Syl is related to the wind spren but isn't actually a windspren herself. Also see the second part of my argument. If Eshonai saw the spren animating the thunderclast, she would consider it a "god" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisapx Posted January 4, 2014 Report Share Posted January 4, 2014 Sorry I've not been clear about my theory. The Chasmspren are related to the Voidspren who are the actual Parshendi gods. Something like how Syl is related to the wind spren but isn't actually a windspren herself. Also see the second part of my argument. If Eshonai saw the spren animating the thunderclast, she would consider it a "god" I don't think that Syl is related to windspren, it was just that they thought she was one because they didn't even knew Honorspren existed until she remembered what she was... Unless I missed something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duladen Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 I'm going to join the position that the Parshendi gods are not the KR. Voidbringers, Unmade, or the so-called Voidspren (or Odiumspren to oppose Honorspren?) makes more sense. This is the second instance of someone thinking surge binding and/or a Knights Radiant renewal would lead to a desolation. Darkness seems to be hunting down surgebinders to stop this from happening. So the Parshendi didn't kill Gavilar because he was directly bringing their gods back but because a KR renewal would lead to their gods return. It's probably related to the Oathpact. If Honor has his champions, Odium gets his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) I think the parshendi gods are binding spren Edited January 7, 2014 by marianmi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikorr Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) So the Parshendi didn't kill Gavilar because he was directly bringing their gods back but because a KR renewal would lead to their gods return. It's probably related to the Oathpact. If Honor has his champions, Odium gets his. I don't think that the return of the Parshendi gods was tied to the return of the Knights Radiant, as the Parshendi Gods appear to have already returned. The Parshendi knew that by killing the Alethi King they may face destruction, but they considered that a better proposition than their 'terrible gods' returning. She and the others had ordered the murder of their king in a desperate gambit to stop the Parshendi gods from returning. Well, that hadn’t worked out... ...They named it Neurock, exile, for it was where they had come to be separated from their gods So their gods look like they've returned, but the Knights Radiant haven't yet. Edited January 7, 2014 by vikorr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duladen Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 I don't think that the return of the Parshendi gods was tied to the return of the Knights Radiant, as the Parshendi Gods appear to have already returned. The Parshendi knew that by killing the Alethi King they may face destruction, but they considered that a better proposition than their 'terrible gods' returning. So their gods look like they've returned, but the Knights Radiant haven't yet. Interesting - I hadn't read it that way but it's a solid point. What, then, was Gavilar doing that would bring back their gods? Does it have to do with that black sphere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_warko Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 I don't think that the return of the Parshendi gods was tied to the return of the Knights Radiant, as the Parshendi Gods appear to have already returned. The Parshendi knew that by killing the Alethi King they may face destruction, but they considered that a better proposition than their 'terrible gods' returning. So their gods look like they've returned, but the Knights Radiant haven't yet. If the Parshendi have a better oral / recorded history than the Alethi (which I have money on), they might have noted the increased Radiant (possibly Herald) actvity and know this preceeds their Gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 She and the others had ordered the murder of their king in a desperate gambit to stop the Parshendi gods from returning. Well, that hadn’t worked out... ...They named it Neurock, exile, for it was where they had come to be separated from their gods Good quote. So the Parshendi have come on Roshar to be separated from their gods, while humans have come on Roshar because they were chased from the TH - probably by the Parshendi gods? Now, why do I have this feeling (again) that Odium is not the "enemy"? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Alaxel Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) Odium isn't the enemy? Preposterous! Unless... We have WoB that, before Adonalsium was Shattered, there was a force that opposed it. When you have something as fundamental as the Power of Creation there really isn't much that can oppose it except for its fundamental opposite. In this case, I take that to be the Void. The opposite of something is nothing, right? The opposite of the Power of Creation would not be the Power of Destruction, like you might initially assume, but the Power of Unmaking - let me pause here to say, "Oh my God we have the Unmade in Stormlight Archive." - So Voidbringers are likely related to this old force that opposed Adonalsium. I've always felt that that revelation was the most Cosmere shaking, so to speak. If Adonalsium and the Void were in some kind of balance then the Shattered of Adonalsium upset the balance. Which could mean that Odiums Shard Shattering spree is petty mischief compared to what is happening even further behind the scenes. If the balance is upset, perhaps Harmony, armed with Sazeds massive reservoir of knowledge, is aware of the problem and considering methods to fix it. Or perhaps Hoid, who was present at the Shattering, is laboring to address this issue and guided the events on Scadrial to result in the creation of Harmony for just this purpose... ...okay, I'll stop now. This is by far the most unorganized string of unfalsifiable claims I've ever created. But these ideas have stewed in my head too long, even if I expressed them as soon as they popped in to my head, and now it's time to inflict them on you guys to see what other ideas they create. Edit: Holy crap, I'm in WoR when I thought I was in Cosmere! Threw a spoiler tag around that chunk speculative text Edited January 8, 2014 by Alaxel 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Let me add to the string of unfalsiable claims. So maybe .... the Oathpact was made between the 3 shards on Roshar to fight the voidbringers. Also, this would explain why Hoid is becoming more involved here than anywhere else - except Yolen, where maybe there was a clash between Adonalsium and Void - and why he is writing a letter to ye olde dragon on Yolen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_warko Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) ...okay, I'll stop now. This is by far the most unorganized string of unfalsifiable claims I've ever created. But these ideas have stewed in my head too long, even if I expressed them as soon as they popped in to my head, and now it's time to inflict them on you guys to see what other ideas they create. +1 for the use of "unorganised string of unfalsifiable claims". Edited January 8, 2014 by el_warko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Odium isn't the enemy? Preposterous! Unless... We have WoB that, before Adonalsium was Shattered, there was a force that opposed it. When you have something as fundamental as the Power of Creation there really isn't much that can oppose it except for its fundamental opposite. In this case, I take that to be the Void. The opposite of something is nothing, right? The opposite of the Power of Creation would not be the Power of Destruction, like you might initially assume, but the Power of Unmaking - let me pause here to say, "Oh my God we have the Unmade in Stormlight Archive." - So Voidbringers are likely related to this old force that opposed Adonalsium. I've always felt that that revelation was the most Cosmere shaking, so to speak. If Adonalsium and the Void were in some kind of balance then the Shattered of Adonalsium upset the balance. Which could mean that Odiums Shard Shattering spree is petty mischief compared to what is happening even further behind the scenes. If the balance is upset, perhaps Harmony, armed with Sazeds massive reservoir of knowledge, is aware of the problem and considering methods to fix it. Or perhaps Hoid, who was present at the Shattering, is laboring to address this issue and guided the events on Scadrial to result in the creation of Harmony for just this purpose... ...okay, I'll stop now. This is by far the most unorganized string of unfalsifiable claims I've ever created. But these ideas have stewed in my head too long, even if I expressed them as soon as they popped in to my head, and now it's time to inflict them on you guys to see what other ideas they create. Edit: Holy crap, I'm in WoR when I thought I was in Cosmere! Threw a spoiler tag around that chunk speculative text +1 for the use of "unorganised string of unfalsifiable claims". Amen. Make that +23, sir. Unfalsifiable claims? A challenge, methinks (if unfalsifiable means anything like not provably false). I'll try one (please everybody, feel free to play along). Cosmere spoilers that are so vague as to be nearly meaningless: When you have something as fundamental as the Power of Creation there really isn't much that can oppose it except for its fundamental opposite. In this case, I take that to be the Void. The phrase "not much" may be so vague as to pretty much make it unfalsifiable. Still I soldier onward with a list of possibilities that I will assert may add up to "much". Possible opponents of the Power of Creation, some of which are arguably fundamentally opposite. Entropy - also Destruction Stasis - Itself - This could be deliberate like the Iriali religion or through insanity or confusion Envy Greed Competition Insanity Confusion Procrastination So I claim that this list may falsify the assertions quoted above (the use of "may" making this in turn an unfalsifiable assertion). As for the thread topic, I can't think of much to add to the thoughts already recorded about who the gods might be. I think that the "gods" are gods in the sense of having power over them rather than being willingly worshiped. Jasnah's scholarship and the presence of orange blood in the initial scene with Kalak leads me to believe that they were at previous desolations. It seems to me they could have fought on either side or both. They seem to be magical creatures that are symbiotes with spren. I imagine that they were originally created by either Cultivation or Adonalsium, which could be their gods, but I don't see why they would want to be separated from them or how they achieved that separation recently. Adonalsium is long gone and Cultivation is either all over the planet or in a valley far away. People seem to have been continuously traveling to that valley and never seemed to have come across the Parshendi before. If Odium or his minions could corrupt the spren they bind with, that might make them gods in a sense. Following that thought, where did they come from that they were with Odium or his agents? Another planet? Another realm? The place that the Wandersail tried to go to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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