Parshendi, the return of KR, and humans on Roshar

[FirstSelector]

First and foremost, I have been away from the forums and the cosmere in general for some time, so my sincere apologies if I am repeating ideas and theories without correctly citing them.  That being said, I have had a lot of catching up to do and so hopefully I can start to contribute usefully.

 

I was reading various theories and I started to wonder if the history of Roshar was even less clear-cut than we might have otherwise assumed.  In particular, agrooster proposed a theory in which humans are not the native species to Roshar.  In particular, the theory claims that due to ecological differences (chitaneous vs mamallian), Parshendi are the native sentient species and the history of wars with humans was in fact the "Desolations."

 

This theory appeals to me since there was a recent quote (which I cannot place now) that essentially said "other nearby planets have influenced Rosharing mythology," specifically referring to the Tranquiline Halls.  Note that Rosharians believe they were brought to Roshar from this place.

 

I then did a cursory poking-about (which almost certainly missed things, and my apologies to others who have written on this subject) and noticed this theory which almost assuredly shows that the dark sphere has an Odium-corrupted spren trapped in it.  I think there is very little wiggle-room available with what we know to contest this idea.

 

So, with credit to those theorists and my continued apologies to those I have missed, I propose the following idea:

The Parshendi killed Gavilar because he proposed to reinstate the Knights Radiant.

Let us start with some founding arguments:
 

Sadeas claims that Dalinar is starting to act like Gavilar in his final days.  We attribute this to The Way of Kings, which we know is basically a blueprint for the Knights Radiant.  Perhaps Gavilar leapt the chasm that Dalinar required Tanvast to throw him across, namely the importance of the Knights Radiant.  A key point here is not specifically the Knights themselves, but instead the existence of such an order.

 

I make the following claim: the existence of the Knights Radiant is somehow tied to the Oathpact.  Even if the KR were not extant when the original Oathpact was laid down, it could be that their existence somehow fullfilled a clause that prevented further Desolations.  This assumption is somewhat justified, since there hasn't been a Desolation since the KR disbanded and might provide insight as to why they abandoned their orders.

 

"If it walks like a god and quacks like a god, it's a god."  The Parshendi "gods," as they were, are not Shard-level powers, but instead a group of entities that can force the Parshendi to their will.  Suppose, for contradiction, that the Parshendi are aware of the Shards of Adonalsium.  They would then know that the reconstitution of Honor (or another Shard) is a very complicated process.  Thus, they cannot mean literally that Gavilar will bring back their gods.  We then assume that they mean gods in the sense I indicated.

 

I agree with agrooster that the Parshendi culture is very much more like the ideals of Honor than that of the humans.  This would suggest that they were originally created by Honor, or at the very least shaped by his existence.  This is not to say that Honor was more protective of the Parshendi as compared to humans. Note that the Parshendi took credit for killing Gavilar, knowing full well that they would be hunted to the ends of the earth by the Alethi (see below).

 

So how does this all tie together?

 

Supposing what I and others have proposed is true, events proceed in the following way: Roshar (with its highstorms) is settled by Honor, and then there are Parshendi.  Some time later, either due to Honor, Odium, or some other force, humans arrive on Roshar.  Odium notices, and in an attempt to be odius, corrupts some spren.  These corrupted spren then bond with Parshendi (possibly unilaterally) and cause them to go on mass murderous rampages against the humans.

 

Honor is really not too pleased with this turn of events, and strikes a deal somehow with the Heralds, Odium, and possibly additional parties.  They forge some divine agreement that regulates these Desolations in ways we don't yet fully understand.  In particular, I claim that Honor (or his executor) gets the Knights Radiant/Heralds if and only if Odium gets to corrupt Parshendi (Voidbringers)/ten leaders of Voidbinders.

 

Now, this didn't work out so well for any of the parties involved.  In particular, the Heralds have fallen from grace and Tanavast is dead.  However, Odium hasn't been able to outright destroy the world, and his Voidbinders are gone from all but legend.

 

What if this is the direct consequence of the loss of the Knights Radiant?  Perhaps the Oathpact prohibits the existence of Voidbringers (i.e. corrupted Parshendi) if there are no equivalent opposing forces?

 

(Note that this system still admits an "Odium wins" solution, through infighting on the humans side and some unspecified looming threat.)

 

The Parshendi realize this, of course, and kill Gavilar to prevent him from accidentally giving Odium free reign to take over their people again.  They are willing to die for their cause en masse because the alternative is so much worse.  Note that any theory for why the Parshendi killed Gavilar must satisfy this criterion, since they knew the consequences of the assassination.

 

As a final aside, this might shed some light on what Natan is proposed (in the above theory) to be running around killing Surgebinders.  The realization by any number of parties that Surgebinding is only forgotten, not lost, would prompt them to recreate the Knights Radiant in some guise.  It might only be a school of medicine that utilizes Growth, but this might satisfy whatever requirement that the Oathpact demands to allow Voidbringers.

 

Closing thoughts:

 

This would make for a somewhat interesting dynamic in the story - to prevent the creation of new Voidbinders, the Parshendi have driven the Alethi to war and accidentally prompted the reinstatement of the Knights Radiant.  In maybe the cruelest twist of fate I can imagine, what if Odium himself motivated Gavilar to The Way of Kings so that he could attempt to reinstate the KR and thus let the Voidbringers wash over the world.

 

My apologies for the rambling writing and any unattributed theories - feel free to let me know so that I can credit your ideas.  Thanks for reading!

 

[The Rooster]

Good little theory and I'll +1 anyone who mentions my Rosharian Anthropology post.  I'm now thinking more that the Parshemen and Parshendi are of Cultivation, but besides that I like what you're throwing down.  I don't think the KR are necessarily a bad thing, but I think the timeline of events you proport is just about what I think happened in the deep past.  Maybe Odium wants them back because you can't have a desolation without Honor's champions present, so they must return in some form so that it seems like the sides are balanced and the pact is being honored.  That would explain Darkness wants to stop anyone from binding.

[Argent]

It's interesting, but I find far too much of to be founded on assumptions and other theories for my taste. 

Edited November 25, 2013 by Argent

[Natans]

I like this theory =) Take this upvote with my regards.

 

And I would like to add another tidbit that maybe would help reforce your theory.

 

 

In the Lift interlude, Blakie said this:

 

“Why . . . why do you hunt me?”

“In the name of justice.”

“There are tons of people who do wrong things,” she said. She had to force out every word. Talking was hard. Thinking was hard. So tired. “You . . . you coulda hunted big crime bosses, murderers. You chose me instead. Why?”

“Others may be detestable, but they do not dabble in arts that could return Desolation to this world.” His words were so cold. “What you are must be stopped.”

 

Idon't know if you are 100% correct, but I think that you are in the right direction, 

[FirstSelector]

Natans, thanks for that reference!  I only finished the Shardhunt (which, incidentally, I think every should do if they haven't) after writing this up, so it was a pleasant surprise to see that.

[Scriptorian]

My best argument is that it makes too much sense.

Seriously though, at least for me, it seems to connect the puzzle pieces a little bit too easily. It could just be that all of this theory crafting has corrupted me.

I don't think the radiant-voidbringer set up you proposed quite works. I feel it could be something along those lines, but most evidence suggests that the Oathpact and the Desolations are inherently tied together, and the Radiants weren't around until after the Desolations had already started, so the Radiants couldn't specifically have been in the Oathpact, at least originally. Although, my gut says your general premise is correct.

[FirstSelector]

I will admit it does work suspciously well, and I wanted to address your point about the timing.  It is, I believe, well established that the Knights Radiant were founded after the cycle of Desolations started.  However, Surgebinders certainly existed for the Knights Radiant.  I would like to suggest that somehow, the existence of Surgebinding practiced on a large scale is the key, not the formal ordering provided by the Knights Radiant.

 

Now, I will conceed that there is support for the idea (references elude me at this time) that Nohadon somehow changed the Nahel bond simultaneously with writing The Way of Kings. By doing so, he may have accidentally altered the role of Surgebinders in the Oathpact, and that would undermine this theory.

 

However, given the evidence from the interludes, I believe that Surgebinding itself is the real danger, not necessarily the existence of an structured group of Surgebinders.

[Natans]

I will admit it does work suspciously well, and I wanted to address your point about the timing.  It is, I believe, well established that the Knights Radiant were founded after the cycle of Desolations started.  However, Surgebinders certainly existed for the Knights Radiant.  I would like to suggest that somehow, the existence of Surgebinding practiced on a large scale is the key, not the formal ordering provided by the Knights Radiant.

 

Now, I will conceed that there is support for the idea (references elude me at this time) that Nohadon somehow changed the Nahel bond simultaneously with writing The Way of Kings. By doing so, he may have accidentally altered the role of Surgebinders in the Oathpact, and that would undermine this theory.

 

However, given the evidence from the interludes, I believe that Surgebinding itself is the real danger, not necessarily the existence of an structured group of Surgebinders.

 

 

I believe that the way of kings is bonded the sprens to the 40 ideal, but I think like Honor said, that this is diferent from the oathpact two similar things but diferents origins =)

Edited November 25, 2013 by Natans

[marianmi]

While it's a good theory, and links up with some other good theories, I just cannot see Gavilar going to the Parshendi and telling them: "I'll reinstate the KR!", why would he talk to the Parshendi about the KR when he did not talk to hist brother/friends/family about it?

 

Plus, Gavilar DID something that triggered spren to bond again, and maybe a new Desolation. He would not have told the Parshendi he was planning to do something that he already did.

 

Plus, you can argue Parshendi also "dabble" in the same arts, trying to bond new spren and all.

 

I actually think the slave Parshmen know more about the Desolations and all than the Parshendi. I think the Parshendi lost their knowledge over time, or were influenced.

Edited November 25, 2013 by marianmi

[Natans]

While it's a good theory, and links up with some other good theories, I just cannot see Gavilar going to the Parshendi and telling them: "I'll reinstate the KR!", why would he talk to the Parshendi about the KR when he did not talk to hist brother/friends/family about it?

 

Plus, Gavilar DID something that triggered spren to bond again, and maybe a new Desolation. He would not have told the Parshendi he was planning to do something that he already did.

 

Plus, you can argue Parshendi also "dabble" in the same arts, trying to bond new spren and all.

 

I actually think the slave Parshmen know more about the Desolations and all than the Parshendi. I think the Parshendi lost their knowledge over time, or were influenced.

 

 

I really can't make my mind about the parshendi.They are the odd ones, or  the parshmen are? Why only them remember the forms? They originated from a faction that fighted with the Radiants against the voidbringers, or are the descedents of the voidbringer that survided.

 

I can easily see the parshemen revolt if, out nothing, they bond voidbringer spren. But what about the parshendi, they don't wnet return of their old gods, soo they are "good" guys. I have a hunch that shen is gonna help a lot understand this mess, but know this to me are one of the big mysterys of the book =)

Edited November 25, 2013 by Natans

[marianmi]

Yes, that's how it looks the first time you look at it: the parshmen are those that are slaves and "forgot" their forms; the parshendi are the "true" parsh people.

 

But let's not forget how Brandon turned

the kandra

on us He can easily turn the parsh on us too - for example, the parshmen may be the ones that actually "remember" everything, and they don't want to use any forms because of their "contract" with Honor, while at the same time accumulating a hoard of shards

like the kandra atium

. And the parshendi descended from some misguided/odium-influenced parshman, who left off with his cache of shards and did not teach his kids about the contract with Honor, and they evolved in this tribe of wild parshmen.

Edited November 25, 2013 by marianmi

[Natans]

Yes, that's how it looks the first time you look at it: the parshmen are those that are slaves and "forgot" their forms; the parshendi are the "true" parsh people.

 

But let's not forget how Brandon turned

the kandra

on us He can easily turn the parsh on us too - for example, the parshmen may be the ones that actually "remember" everything, and they don't want to use any forms because of their "contract" with Honor, while at the same time accumulating a hoard of shards

like the kandra atium

. And the parshendi descended from some misguided/odium-influenced parshman, who left off with his cache of shards and did not teach his kids about the contract with Honor, and they evolved in this tribe of wild parshmen.

 

Exact. Sanderson always pull that kind of thing. The fact is that even after a whole book I didn't even know if the enemy is really the enemy, and to me that speak volumes about the depth of this books  =)

[marianmi]

The fact is that even after a whole book I didn't even know if the enemy is really the enemy, and to me that speak volumes about the depth of this books  =)

 

What enemy?  I think "the enemy" was mentioned only once, in a vision...

Edited November 26, 2013 by marianmi

[Gloom]

It's easy, if Kaladin is killing them they are the enemy. If they are trying to kill Kaladin, they are the enemy.

If neither of the above is true, then they may be the enemy, but aren't actively being the enemy.

 

I hope that cleared it up for you

[FirstSelector]

Plus, Gavilar DID something that triggered spren to bond again, and maybe a new Desolation. He would not have told the Parshendi he was planning to do something that he already did.

 

Consider the following: Gavilar performs some action that starts everything in motion (spren, speaking before dying, etc) which has some directly observable effects.  In particular he is sent/attracts a Cryptic and starts talking about the Ideals.  So, Gavilar doesn't have to say exactly "I'm going to rebuild the KR," but his actions are what in fact enable it.

 

The Parshendi, then, don't kill him because he proposes to bring back the Knights Radiant, but instead because they hope that his death will prevent the floodgates from opening again.  This doesn't work (Eshonai even admits that his death was ineffectual) and we see the resurgence of Surgebinders, which was precisely what the Parshendi wanted to prevent.

 

This leads to a very interesting question - what did Gavilar do or enable that changed the whole world?  Was there some sort of "drawbridge," as it were, preventing Nahel spren from coming over from the Cognitive Realm?  Did Honor build in some sort of failsafe mechanism?  We should also investigate whether Jasnah had her innate Soulcasting ability prior to the discovery of the Parshendi.

[name_here]

Well, I checked the prologue reading; no mention of Soulcasting but her shadow was apparently moving wrong for at least a few days. I suspect that means she had recently acquired a Nahel bond with a shadow-like spren. So after meeting the Parshendi, before the assassination.

[The Count]

Plus, Gavilar DID something that triggered spren to bond again, and maybe a new Desolation. He would not have told the Parshendi he was planning to do something that he already did.

I have my doubts about this...

If Gavilar did something to allow spren to bond again then Jasnah certainly didn't waste any time attracting one.

Her shadow was acting strangely even before Gavilar was murdered.

I am sure Gavilar did something... just not necessarily to the ability of Spren to form Nahel bonds.

[marianmi]

Why would she not attract one quick?

She was extraordinary back then as well...

[Aether]

It could be assumed that whatever triggered the resurgence of Surgebinding would have happened when they were first exploring the Shattered Plains, which is around the time that the Death Chants started as well. This again would presumably have been some time before the assassination of Gavilar, leaving Jasnah a reasonable amount of time to attract a Spren.

[hoser]

Well, if the ability to form the Nahel Bond was not available before, then there could be any number of triggers.  Maybe it's what Szeth is being punished for .

[The Count]

It could be assumed that whatever triggered the resurgence of Surgebinding would have happened when they were first exploring the Shattered Plains, which is around the time that the Death Chants started as well. This again would presumably have been some time before the assassination of Gavilar, leaving Jasnah a reasonable amount of time to attract a Spren.

If this is the case then it cannot have been done by Gavilar deliberately. From Jasnah's own account, Gavilar was still an Alethi warrior king through and through at this time, looking to hunt the greatshells. IIRC he had to have the significance of the Parshendi explained to him.

Having said that, the exploration of the shattered plains does seem to have been the trigger point for the changes to his personality and his interest in the old ways. It is also the time at which, as you say, the death chants began. So something strange must have happened.

On the other hand, we know that Gavilar did something on the night of his death. He tells Szeth he is "too late". Also the Eshonai interlude implies that Gavilar told them what he was planning (at least in part) on the same day as he was killed.

As hoser said, we do not know what Szeth has been made truthless for or how long ago that was. His actions could also have caused the build up to Desolation and / or the resurgence of nahel bonding.

The only conclusion I am willing to make is that the actions Gavilar took on the night of his death did not bring back spren bonding.

I am also inclined (though less sure) to believe that the Death chants are related to the run up to a desolation. Therfore I think that the 'trigger' for the desolation occurred at the time Gavilar was exploring the shattered planes. Whether they were through the actions of Gavilar though, I reserve judgement.

Edited November 27, 2013 by MadRand

[Meg]

Plus, Gavilar DID something that triggered spren to bond again, and maybe a new Desolation. He would not have told the Parshendi he was planning to do something that he already did.

Hid did? What? Is there any evidence? From the book? A quote from BS?

 

What enemy?  I think "the enemy" was mentioned only once, in a vision...

"The enemy" was mentioned once, so far you are right, but not in a vision but rather in the Prelude:

Kalak shook his head. “He will not remain bound by this. The enemy. He will find a way around it. You know he will.”

[marianmi]

Hid did? What? Is there any evidence? From the book? A quote from BS?

 

"The enemy" was mentioned once, so far you are right, but not in a vision but rather in the Prelude:

 

 

1) The dying prophecies, spren bonding have resurfaced after Gavilar discovering the Parshendi on the Shattered Plains. Galivar, before dying, tells Szeth "you are too late". Since I don't think that either humans meeting parshendi, or humans getting on the shattered plains triggered the prophecies and spren bonding, must be that there was some ACTION being done at that point in time. Gavilar saying "you are too late" means the action was completed already.

 

2) Yes, Prelude I was trying to imply that "the enemy" might not be Odium in that fight.