Is there anything wrong with Shardplate?

[Daishi5]

I like Gloom's theory that the shardblades of today are different than the shardblades before the recreance, and that event is what created our third type of blade (honorblade, radiant shardblade, modern shardblade).  Stealing his quote, this is from the recreance:

 

 

A terrible feeling struck him. A sense of immense tragedy, of pain and betrayal. Stopping where he stood, he gasped, hand to chest. What was happening? What was that dreadful feeling, that screaming he swore he could almost hear?

This also helps explain why Syl seems to hate a weapon that probably used to belong to a Knight Radiant.  

 

Shardblades seem to be "off" in modern Roshar, however no one seems to question shardplate.

 

Looking back at Dalinar's flashbacks, modern shardplate seems to be less capable than the radiant's shardplate. The radiant's plate was covered in glowing glyphs and the helms at least seemed to disappear and reappear whenever the radiant wanted.  During the chasmfiend fight it seems that Dalinar's plate may have glowed a bit.  

 

Szeth thinks he can't use his lashings while wearing plate because he thinks it will interfere with the gemstones in the plate.  In Dalinar's vision, one of the radiants "falls upward" back to the town.  It seems like he is lashing himself in order to fly.  

 

I think there was a theory that only people in plate felt the "Thrill" but I think that was debunked as not being only limited to plate.  

 

Looking over the Recreance vision again, the swords were glowing and faded, but there is no mention of armor glow or any change.

 

Kaladin didn't just reject a blade, but also the plate.  However, he only thinks about the blade.  

 

So, is anything up with shardplate?

 

If something is wrong with shardblades, and it was caused by the Recreance, would it have also affected the plate? Maybe the Recreance only corrupted (or allowed a certain odius presence to corrupt) shardblades.  

 

We don't seem to have any indication that shardplate is bad in any way, no recreations or revulsion to it.  But, if it doesn't elicit the same reactions as the shardblades, can we assume that whatever causes Syl and Kaladin to hate the blade did not happen to the plate (IE, if Syl and Kaladin hate blades, but not plate, can we assume the Recreance didn't cause the issue with shardblades?)

 

I thought that maybe shardplate was just not working because no one in modern Roshar seems to be able to make it glow or disappear, so its corruption just wasn't seen.  However, when Kaladin kills the shardbearer, Amaram states that the shardbearer is dead:

 

"If he were still alive, his Blade would have vanished.  His armor is falling off of him.  He is dead..."

 

It looks like shardplate is bonded to its wearer in some form, and when the wearer dies, it just falls off.  So, it seems that shardplate is still working, at least in some minimal form.  

 

We also have Dalinar, who seems to almost glow when protecting Elhokar from the chasmfiend, so the shardplate seems like it might still be connected to the ideals of honor, and it might still work if worn by a KR.

 

 

Where does that leave my ideas when it comes to shardplate?  Confused!

 

The quote from the Recreance makes it seem like something really bad happened there, but it doesn't seem to have done anything to shardplate, and I like the idea that it is the cause of modern shardblades being disturbing to Syl.  I also like the idea that shardplate and shardblades are related to the oaths of the KR, but modern shardplate seems to be just waiting for honorable people to pick it up and put it on, while the shardblades are being rejected by our two main honorable characters.  

 

It would make more sense if both plate and blade were corrupted, or if both plate and blade could be made to work properly by an honorable person.  

 

Am I missing something that might imply plate is also bad in some way?  Could the difference between the two mean something important?

[bartbug]

I like this idea. Maybe shardplate was already a lesser form of the power, and so the recreance or whatever it was that tainted the blades didn't affect it as much.

[Guest Alaxel]

Interesting speculations. We have witnessed both Plate and Blades diminish in power, and modern day peoples don't seem to notice that anything is wrong. And only the diminished Blades seem to be viewed negatively, where the Plate is viewed with indifference mostly. There does have to be some significance there.

[Mailliw73]

Maybe because Plate doesn't directly harm anything. Blades have the sole purpose of cutting through things, particularly souls. Plate is just made in Defense.

[marianmi]

A terrible feeling struck him. A sense of immense tragedy, of pain and betrayal. Stopping where he stood, he gasped, hand to chest. What was happening? What was that dreadful feeling, that screaming he swore he could almost hear?

 

This looks to me as the actual moment Honor died. And the KR did actually betray humankind.

[Guest Alaxel]

What happens to a Shard when things it has Invested directly contradict the Shard's intent? We're not certain how exactly one goes about Splintering a Shard, but could it be done by forcing it to run counter to it's Intent?

If Honor was heavily Invested in Roshar, as I suspect he must have been, could the betrayal of the Knights Radiant during the Recreance, with betrayal being just about the least honorable thing someone can do, have been instrumental, if not downright responsible, for the Splintering of Honor?

That would explain how one Shard can Splinter another Shard that should be just about equally as powerful. And why Brandon Sanderson claimed it was a complicated process.

Odium, or Rayse, specifically, was described as being one of the most cunning people Hoid had ever met. If that holds true, Odium would be the Shard most suited to Splintering other Shards.

It would explain Dalinar Kholin's feels during the betrayal during the Recreance if he was sensing Honor splintering.

It would also explain the shardblades and shardplate diminishing in power considerably.

[marianmi]

Exactly.

[Maximus]

But wasn't it Honor who was showing this vision to Dalinar? Seems unlikely he would be showing his own death

[Gloom]

First off, let me say that that theory wasn't mine. I don't know who originally came up with the theory. I have adopted it because it makes sense to me, but I'm not going to claim credit for it.

 

I will say that I believe that the Shardblades are obtained by each individual Knight Radiant through the Nahel Bond. I don't believe this is necessarily the case with the Plate. If the plate was created by Bondsmiths, which was theorized by someone else as well, then the Plate may not have been affected when the Knights Radiant rejected their Nahel Bonds and forsook their oaths. If the Blade alone was a part of the bond, and the Plate was designed to function best by someone who was a full Knight Radiant, then the Plate would be similar to an engine that isn't running on all cylinders. It would still run, but it wouldn't be as efficient, or as effective as it is when running at one hundred percent capacity. I do believe that the Plate was incorporated into the Nahel Bond, but that it was done as an addition.

 

I would say that the Day of Recreance was a blow to Honor, I wouldn't necessarily say it was a death blow. I'm tending to think He died during the Sunmaker war.

[Argent]

I always assumed that feeling Dalinar experienced was caused by the Radiants severing their Nahel bonds. Though it's pretty baseless to be used as anything.

[Fistsofrage]

Honor was happily surprised by the formation of the radiants. So I don't think their disbanding could have killed him since he didn't form them or the nahel bond and spren seem to have existed before Honor ever came to Roshar.

[marianmi]

Honor was happily surprised by the formation of the radiants. So I don't think their disbanding could have killed him since he didn't form them or the nahel bond and spren seem to have existed before Honor ever came to Roshar.

 

He was surprised, not necessary "happily"... since the radiants would tap his shard's power, theoretically weakening him...

And, with the heralds gone, and a lot of his investiture tainted, his remaining not-tainted investiture would have been in the radiants, therefore them not being honourable would have been the "final" blow.

 

EDIT: With the heralds in Damnation I would agree with you that Radiants leaving would have killed him.

Edited November 6, 2013 by marianmi

[Fistsofrage]

Well Tanavast blames Odium for killing him, so I'm inclined to believe that they had a confrontation and Honor lost. Perhaps the fall of the Heralds and the radiants weakened him, but it was Odium who landed the fatal blow.

[marianmi]

"Odium has killed me" does not necessary means a direct "mano-a-mano" confrontation between them.

Odium could have killed him indirectly.

[The Count]

Shardblades seem to be "off" in modern Roshar, however no one seems to question shardplate.

 

This could simply be that, as far as we know, no modern holders of plate and blade can infuse stormlight.

 

From the Starfalls vision it seems like the plate and blade of the windrunner glow when he is infusing / using his surges.

 

This could be the sole reason for the non glowyness of the modern day plate / blades.

 

I know we have WoB that 'something is different' about modern shardblades. But I have always believed that this is down to the blades being weilded by non-radiants (or specifically the Radiant it originally belonged to).

 

In my opinion, The change of ownership + the lack of surges in the current weilders can explain all the differences for shardblades and shardplate.

 

I still do not buy the Odium changed shardblades theory. why try to change a powerfully invested object when humans are so easy to corrupt?

[name_here]

I've theorized that the Oathpact somehow prevented Odium and Honor from simply having it out, and when the Heralds and then the Radiants resigned it collapsed and Odium killed Honor.

 

Also, it seems to me that the Blades but not Plate have been altered in some manner, given how much Syl dislikes Dalinar's Blade. The Plate apparently still works; Dalinar's Plate glows when he's doing really impressive things. The Blade does not. So it appears that Plate is simply not being used by Radiants and most of its special abilities are inert, while something is actually wrong with the Blades.

[Daishi5]

First off, let me say that that theory wasn't mine. I don't know who originally came up with the theory. I have adopted it because it makes sense to me, but I'm not going to claim credit for it.

 

I will say that I believe that the Shardblades are obtained by each individual Knight Radiant through the Nahel Bond. I don't believe this is necessarily the case with the Plate. If the plate was created by Bondsmiths, which was theorized by someone else as well, then the Plate may not have been affected when the Knights Radiant rejected their Nahel Bonds and forsook their oaths. If the Blade alone was a part of the bond, and the Plate was designed to function best by someone who was a full Knight Radiant, then the Plate would be similar to an engine that isn't running on all cylinders. It would still run, but it wouldn't be as efficient, or as effective as it is when running at one hundred percent capacity. I do believe that the Plate was incorporated into the Nahel Bond, but that it was done as an addition.

 

I would say that the Day of Recreance was a blow to Honor, I wouldn't necessarily say it was a death blow. I'm tending to think He died during the Sunmaker war.

Noted, I was trying to give credit where credit was due, but I hadn't looked deep enough, oops!

 

I don't really have a theory, it just seems that something is different between what happened the blades and plate on Roshar.  I think that if we pay attention to how they are different we might be able to come up with a few more crazy and completely wrong theories (and maybe something thats right!)

[name_here]

The glow completely failed when people started killing each other with them. I think it's really that simple.

[Gloom]

I've theorized that the Oathpact somehow prevented Odium and Honor from simply having it out, and when the Heralds and then the Radiants resigned it collapsed and Odium killed Honor.

 

Also, it seems to me that the Blades but not Plate have been altered in some manner, given how much Syl dislikes Dalinar's Blade. The Plate apparently still works; Dalinar's Plate glows when he's doing really impressive things. The Blade does not. So it appears that Plate is simply not being used by Radiants and most of its special abilities are inert, while something is actually wrong with the Blades.

 

Taln was still upholding the Oathpact. The Radiants weren't part of the Oath pact, so their defection, while painful wouldn't have changed the parameters of the Oathpact in the slightest.

 

 

Wetlander: Is there any of the Oathpact still functioning because e of Taln continued participation.

 

A: Yes, indeed.

source

edit: Added quote/corrected spelling.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Gloom

[Daishi5]

The glow completely failed when people started killing each other with them. I think it's really that simple.

That could be it, the glow starts to fade when the blades are abandoned, but it says the glow is completely gone right after the first person is killed.  It isn't clear that they are directly related, but it given that it says they killed the first person, and the very next sentence says the glow was completely gone it not a giant leap of logic.  

 

Is it a huge difference that the blade does the actual killing while the plate only makes the killing easier.  If magic on Roshar is based on intent, and shardplate wearers like Sadeas are running around slaughtering soldiers left and right while wearing their plate, would the plate be unaffected by the horrible things they were doing?

[marianmi]

We know the plate is fueled by gems, but why? Presumably, when you get hit, the blade uses the stormlight to repair itself. So having the gems there would make it possible to stay longer on the battlefield. So, in a bare sense, plates work as they should.

However, we've seen plates glow on radiants, we've seen helmets dissapearing, and I am pretty sure plates did not use the gems to repair themselves before.

 

1) I do believe plates were fueled by the stormlight emanating from the radiant. Maybe the pockets that exist now were used by the radiants to store stormlight for themselves, maybe there were no pockets before and were added over time.

 

2) Helmets dissapearing - it can be something as "easy" as having a transportation fabrial embedded, but I think that actually is because of the glyphs - see below.

 

3) Glyphs - I think that in addition to the "basic" function, plates act also as a fabrial with the help of a spren. We don't know a fabrial needs to keep a spren "prisoner", maybe spren can enter and leave plates as they want. So, when fighting, the KR's spren is part of the plate, and instead of the metal frame used on the modern fabrials, the etching of glyphs in the plate will determine a stormlight pattern. Have one transportation glyph on the helmet, and you can "make it dissapear". Have one division-based glyph like the pattern on the spanreed, and you can talk to base. I am very sure that's the role of the glyphs on the armour - to form stormlight patterns like those in the modern fabrial.

 

I only wonder how the big glyphs on the armour were used, or the ones on the blades....

Edited November 6, 2013 by marianmi

[Daishi5]

Random thought.  

 

We know that Kaladin is protected from feeling the Thrill, and I think we know that this is because of his bond with Syl.

 

Perhaps the bond extended to protect not only the KR, but also his plate and blade. 

 

Perhaps, the Recreance was just the severing of the bonds, which left both the plate and the blade vulnerable to corruption.  Odium may have just corrupted the blades because the blades can be used to kill people, and he wanted the maximum gain in killing for the minimum investure.  

 

So, both plate and blade could be vulnerable because of the Recreance, but the plate is still fine just because Odium wasn't interested in something that didn't harm people.  (Although, Adolins punching Parshendi at the Tower shows that plate can be deadly too.)

[bookspren]

Gloom, why do you think Tanavast died during the Sunmaker war? Is it because the Vorin authorities became dishonorable when they tried to conquer the world? That interests me since Teft's family apparently followed Old Vorinism and he is teaching Kaladin about the Radiants.

By the way, I agree that the Radiants disbanding did not kill Tanavast since they were relatively recent though surgebinders were around for a long time before.

[Gloom]

It's just a hunch really. I think that a lot of things happened during the Sunmaker War that we aren't aware of. It was a huge event, effecting almost every nation, and yet we know so little about it. I'm also leaning towards the idea that this is when the Heralds became cursed, not thousands of years ago.

[Guest Alaxel]

The Sunmaker War...I'm afraid that I'm drawing a blank. The Sunmaker was the man who united ancient Alethkar and overthrew the Heirocracy, right? I could have sworn that that was the War of Loss.

I'm on my cellular telephone, so it's a lille difficult for me to look that up.