All Magic Systems Existed on Yolen Prior to the Shattering of Adonalsium

[Two McMillion]

We know that Hoid has access to several systems of Investiture, and that among these are Feuchemy and Lightweaving.

 

Now, that fact that he seems to have Feruchemy is particularly interesting. As far as we know, Feruchemy cannot be obtained later in life- you must be born with it. It stands to reason, then, that Hoid was born with this ability, and, frankly, there's no reason to think he wasn't. After all, the raw material from which the Shards, and hence magic, come- Adonalsium- existed on Yolen at some time in the past. When the shards went to other worlds, they brought systems of magic with them.

 

Lightweaving is also interesting, as the Lightweavers were apparently also an order of Knights Radiant, and both apparently have similar abilities. It seems unlikely that this is a coincidence. Once again, the KR are associated with a Shard, Honor in this case, and once again that shard, or a form of it, seems to have existed on Yolen when Adonalsium was there.

 

Given these facts, I propose that before the shattering of Adonalsium, all the systems of magic we now have scattered throughout the cosmere were present on Yolen. Allomancers, Awakeners, users of the Dor- you could find all of them there.

 

I suspect, of course, that magic on Yolen will not look exactly like the magic in any of the books. They would have known about the interactions between the systems and probably a bit about the underlying Realmatic theory. And since the shattering, you have gotten things such as the Dor that are strongly linked to new physical location of the Shards. The Yolenites woulds probably have viewed them not as separate systems of magic, but all parts of a single whole that could be controlled to various ends. Essentially, if having a single Shard on a world, and that lets you use magic, how can having all sixteen of them on a single world not let you use magic?

 

Hoid seems to know a great deal about the interactions of systems of Investiture. Where did he learn this? I suspect he learned much of it on the world of his birth, where such things were studied and known about- Yolen.

[Kadrok]

Interesting idea, but I have a few issues to note:

 

 

Interview: Apr 15th, 2013

Reddit AMA 2013 (Verbatim)

Phantine ()

Are there any magic systems in the cosmere that aren't shard based?

Brandon Sanderson

This depends on definitions. The effects of Adonalsium permeate everything, and Adonalsium is also the source of the Shards. It is possible to find a magic that isn't DIRECTLY powered by a specific shard, however, though most of these would have been set up before the shattering and would be much smaller in scope than things like Allomancy and Surgebinding.

Tags

shard, cosmere, adonalsium, allomancy, surgebinding,

 

In other words, magic that isn't powered by a specific shard is limited, and I suspect (and this quote implies) that before the shattering, all magic was powered not by shards but by the whole Adonalsium (not a "specific shard").

 

 

There is also the issue of Scadrial the planet's involvement in the Metallic arts:

 

Interview: Oct, 2008

Hero of Ages Q&A - TWG (Verbatim)

Kaimipono (16 October 2008)

Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies?

Brandon Sanderson (17 October 2008)

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.

Tags

mistborn, first mistborn trilogy, hero of ages, vin, ruin, preservation, shards, adonalsium, atium, future sight, mists, pools, metallic arts, allomancy, hemalurgy, feruchemy, realmatic theory, power of creation,

 

Note the bolded section. The Metallic Arts arose not just because of Ruin and Preservation and their relationship, but the relationship between them and Scadrial. This, in my mind, suggests that before Scadrial, the Metallic arts existed only as potential. That said, there is room in this quote at least for what you describe to be possible... if the powers existed preshattering, and were lost at the shattering, and then re-arose on Scadrial, the Preservation-Ruin-Scadrial combo only allowing the metallic arts of millions of possible systems to develop. There is more on the magic pre-shattering at the end of this post.

 

My view is... well, I've already outlined it elsewhere, so I'm going to quote myself (please forgive me):

 

And this is the part where I refer you to one of Shardlet's theories I personally believe: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3473-shardworld-dna-blueprint-based-on-yolen-dna/?hl=%2Byolen+%2Bblueprint

 

Basically the thread of it is that Hoid is from Yolen, and is of the human stock that existed before Adonalsium was shattered. Rather than being of just Ruin and Preservation (like the Scadrians), these humans are presumably of all the Shards (as their original whole). Thus, Hoid has potential access to all manifestations of investiture because he has the seeds of all of them within him, just as the Southern Scadrians have the seeds of all the metallic arts in them, even without ancestors who burned lerasium. I assume that Hoid has found a way to wake up his Feruchemical potential.

 

As I recall I speculate in that thread that it is possible Hoid's Feruchemy doesn't use metal as a focus, given the whole metal thing is presumably a result of the interplay between Ruin, Preservation and Scadrial. I now think that is unlikely given that preshattering systems are meant to be limited. I think it's more likely that Feruchemy came about on Scadrial and Hoid worked out how to awaken his potential in it while visiting Scadrial, back around the time the Worldbringers were a big deal (there are other theories that connect Hoid to the founding of the worldbringers, but I've rambled enough about this already).

 

Short answer: Hoid probably has Feruchemy because he both has the master sDNA of the humans (presumably) created by the unshattered Adonalsium, and has worked out how to draw Feruchemy out of that potential by examining the manifestation of Feruchemy on classical Scadrial.

 

In my view Hoid's access to these systems are a conjunction of his master sDNA, and previous visits to the Shardworlds on which these powers originate.

 

Interview: Sep, 2012

Cosmere Q&A - 17th Shard (Verbatim)

Link389

Before Adonalsium was shattered, was there magic in the Cosmere and what form did it take?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, and when I write Dragonsteel, you shall see the answer to this.

Tags

adonalsium, shattering, investiture, dragonsteel, cosmere,

 

Sorry to drown you in quotes.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Kadrok

[Gloom]

And as far as Light Weaving goes, I believe that this was one of the actual magic systems on Yolen. I believe that Tanavast and Cultivation were native of Yolen before the Shattering. Hoid is also a native of Yolen. I believe that Hoids Light Weaving is the Yolen version of Light Weaving, and that Light Weaving on Roshar was named after that original system. It is still to be determined how much in common these two systems actually have.

[Shardlet]

In my view Hoid's access to these systems are a conjunction of his master sDNA, and previous visits to the Shardworlds on which these powers originate.

 

Ah, Kadrok.  My Master DNA disciple.  Spreading the word where e'er you go.

[Claincy]

I concur with Kadrok and with Gloom here.   I suspect that all of the current magic systems *could* have existed pre-shattering, but I also think that most or all of the single-shard based systems (allomancy/surgebinding etc) did not. I think Adonalsium was capable of creating them but would have had to specifically decide to do so. (If he had created them they would have had different focus's due to being on Yolen rather than their respective planets, buts that's a whole different can of worms.)

 

(I too support the Yolen DNA theory   It makes a lot of sense.)

[Shardlet]

(I too support the Yolen DNA theory   It makes a lot of sense.)

 

And the flock grows.

[Robot Aztec]

Hey a Guy on reddit in r/stromlight archive said that he asked and hoid doesnt have magic from all shardsworld but that he could in the future i dunno if that is pro or against that or not.

[Shardlet]

I think, ambiguous.  But, very interesting.  Gives some good context.  Thanks for the info Robot.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Shardlet

[Robot Aztec]

What He said exactly is this ''I asked if Hoid had magic from all the shardworlds and he said no, but he could in the future.

'' it was Dr_irrational who asked it so you should give him all your upvotes for it.

[Gloom]

I'm not surprised. In order to get the magic from all the Shard Worlds, he'd have to visit all the Shard Worlds. I never really thought Hoids mission was to collect magic. At the moment, Hoid seems to be focused on stopping Odium, so Odium is likely to be a hindrance to his long term plans. If Hoids mission was to simply collect magic, he'd be trying to gain access to Voidbringer magic.

 

Just because Hoid is from Yolen, and likely lived when Adonalsium was whole doesn't mean he would automatically have access to magic that was created after the shattering and the migration of the Shards. It just that he can gain access to that magic assuming that Shardlets theory about SDNA is correct, which I have no reason to doubt.

[Kadrok]

I'm not surprised. In order to get the magic from all the Shard Worlds, he'd have to visit all the Shard Worlds. I never really thought Hoids mission was to collect magic. At the moment, Hoid seems to be focused on stopping Odium, so Odium is likely to be a hindrance to his long term plans. If Hoids mission was to simply collect magic, he'd be trying to gain access to Voidbringer magic.

Let's call collecting magic the hobby Hoid pursues when he has time between pursuing his real goals... like if James Bond was addicted to Magic the Gathering.

 

Ah, Kadrok.  My Master DNA disciple.  Spreading the word where e'er you go.

It's a really good theory! If it ever gets knocked down, so much of my thinking and theorizing about the Cosmere goes with it.

[dyring]

Hoid doesent absolutely need to have been born with it thou. Preservation could bestow allomancy on anyone he want even without Lerasium, by an act of will. (as shown by Sazed when making Spook a full mistborn.

 

And Hoid(almost certainly) new all of the shards before them gaining the powers. In the letter he notes that Ruin was a nice person once. If now Feruchemy is of both Ruin and Preservation, what is to stop them, just having ascended, to show/reward their friend/helper with feruchemy?

 

Now, I´m not really fully advocating the above stand, just pointing out, there is other possibilities then the master DNA thing, its possible, but not certain.

Edited October 23, 2013 by dyring

[+ElephantEarwax]

I support the DNA theory.

Edited July 4, 2017 by ElephantEarwax

[Calderis]

21 minutes ago, ElephantEarwax said:

I support the DNA theory.

Please look at thread dates. The last post before yours is almost 4 years old. 

[Chaos]

On 7/4/2017 at 10:35 AM, Calderis said:

Please look at thread dates. The last post before yours is almost 4 years old. 

That's fine. 

Guys, chill on the thread necroing reporting. It's a very minor deal and is usually okay on theory stuff. You do not need to be thread necro police  

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

Well, since it's revived already, might as well add some more.

A. Has the Master DNA theory been confirmed or destroyed over the last 4 years? Or is it still just a theory? Any WoB or other Canon sources to attack or strengthen it?

B. I'm fairly sure at this point WoBs say that Hoid does not have Feruchemy, so that throws a major wrench in the theory.

C. However, I think that the master DNA theory might be right anyways. I'm thinking of the passage in MBSH where the IRE need a spherical artifact to temporarily connect them to Preservation so they can take up it's power. It sounds like a non-Scadrial human wouldn't have that connection. However, the master DNA theory might mean that Hoid can take up any shard, regardless of where it is invested, because he predates the shattering.

So, if more light is shed on recent developments of the master DNA theory, you might have another disciple, @Shardlet

[18th Shard]

Hoid did not gain Elantrian powers in the new scenes for Elantris.

[Nohadon]

the main focus of this theory is that hoid gained feruchemical powers without being born with them, yes?

it's been shown in Wax & Wayne books (i think it was Shadows Of Self?) that hemalurgy can steal feruchemy, hoid could've spiked himself, allthough for complete feruchemy that would be 16 spikes, and by then hoid would easily be on Harmony's control (oh wait, its hoid)

and when is it even shown that hoid is a feruchemist? we know he's a lerasium mistborn but we don't know about him ever using feruchemy...

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

44 minutes ago, Nohadon said:

the main focus of this theory is that hoid gained feruchemical powers without being born with them, yes?

it's been shown in Wax & Wayne books (i think it was Shadows Of Self?) that hemalurgy can steal feruchemy, hoid could've spiked himself, allthough for complete feruchemy that would be 16 spikes, and by then hoid would easily be on Harmony's control (oh wait, its hoid)

and when is it even shown that hoid is a feruchemist? we know he's a lerasium mistborn but we don't know about him ever using feruchemy...

Actually, we have it strongly hinted and almost confirmed that Hoid used the Lerasium bead, but it was never completely confirmed.

[The One Who Connects]

8 hours ago, Nohadon said:

Hoid could've spiked himself

Hoid doesn't use Hemalurgy. He's averse to opening himself up to outside influence.

Quote

Question

Aha! Yes! Uh, ok, second thing. My brother and I have been debating about Hoid and how he got his abilities. We have a couple theories. One of them is Hemalurgy.

Brandon Sanderson

Ok, he does not have Hemalurgy. He has powers that predate the Shattering of Adonalsium. Not all of his powers predate, but he does have powers that predate.

Quote

Ruro272

Does Hoid have a Hemalurgically charged Nicrosil spike?

Brandon Sanderson

It's... unlikely. Hoid would not want to open himself to the influence of Shards so using Hemalurgy on himself is unlikely. Although Hemalurgy is the easiest way to get other powers, he'd more likely do things the hard way.

[Steeldancer]

10 hours ago, Nohadon said:

the main focus of this theory is that hoid gained feruchemical powers without being born with them, yes?

it's been shown in Wax & Wayne books (i think it was Shadows Of Self?) that hemalurgy can steal feruchemy, hoid could've spiked himself, allthough for complete feruchemy that would be 16 spikes, and by then hoid would easily be on Harmony's control (oh wait, its hoid)

and when is it even shown that hoid is a feruchemist? we know he's a lerasium mistborn but we don't know about him ever using feruchemy...

He has unkeyed metalminds. I got that WoB, I can vouch for it. He can use feruchemy. Now as for what he uses them for... I have no idea. I just figured if he had an unkeyed coppermind, he probably got himself other things as well. 

[Nohadon]

12 hours ago, The Flash said:

He has unkeyed metalminds. I got that WoB, I can vouch for it. He can use feruchemy. Now as for what he uses them for... I have no idea. I just figured if he had an unkeyed coppermind, he probably got himself other things as well.

oh ok, if he is using feruchemy, he's probably using it for compounding, or he's using a (nicrosil? i think its nicrosil...) metalmind to store uncanny amounts of investiture. (as a random thought, if hoid had feruchemy all along, him compounding atium would explain how he ages slowly)

 

15 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Hoid doesn't use Hemalurgy. He's averse to opening himself up to outside influence.

outside influence? i know thats probs a WoB  but what is that meant to mean? do you mean he is using the metalminds that can be used by anyone? that could be possible, like how anyone could use the bands of mourning.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Nohadon said:

outside influence? i know thats probs a WoB  but what is that meant to mean?

Hemalurgy has a built in problem that allows for the control of the spiked person. 

It's how rioting and soothing control the Kandra and Koloss, and How Ruin controlled the inquisitors.