Shardworld DNA blueprint based on Yolen DNA

[Shardlet]

Bear with me on this (and cure me of my ignorance if necessary), I am rather new to the Cosmere stuff.  I only have a big picture grounding when it comes to Adonalsium.  If I am not mistaken the shardholders (less Sazed of course) are from Yolen.  Looking back to Mistborn, it has been shown in the books that 'human' life on Scadrial was the result of a joint effort of Preservation (sorry, don't recall off hand his original name) and Ruin (Ati) to create this life. 

 

Presumably, all shardworld 'humans' were created in a similar fashion with, again, presumably, Yolen 'humans' being used as the general pattern but with subtle differences from world-to-world. 

 

Now, regarding Hoid specifically being able to have multiple magic adeptness (i.e., lightweaving, feruchemy, etc.) in conjunction with the comments above about identity.  Hoid is also from Yolen (homeworld) so he embodies the master DNA, if you will, upon which shardworld 'humans' were patterned.  Could this be the reason why Hoid is able to use a variety of magic systems from multiple shardworlds? 

 

In other words, if the sDNA of a person from Scadrial is required to use Feruchemy, etc. in the same way a key is required to open a lock, then could it be that the sDNA from Yolen is some kind of master key which is able to open the locks from each shardworld? 

 

If so, this would go a long way to explaining Hoid's versatility.

 

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I don't think so necessarily.  The only real quote I can recall on the matter is one about people not from Nalthis trying to Awaken.  It would seem like a bit inaccurate for Yolen people to be able to use Breath as well, though the limit might be non-identity related...

 

 

ZAS
After several more signings, I asked my other question. "Do people in the Comsere, besides Nalthis, have Breaths?"
BRANDON SANDERSON
"No." He then signed a person's books, then said "To elaborate a little more, that's not to say they don't have a life force, because they do. But if someone not from Nalthis were to suddenly gain the ability to become an Awakener, they could not use what they have to Awaken something. That's not to say that they can't receive breaths though."

 

Incidentally, Hoid 'probably' has acquired a Breath.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Shardlet]

I agree that people not from Nalthis would not have 'Breath', but as you pointed out, Hoid probably has at least one Breath, given his penchant for acquiring skills.  I don't read Brandon's response as necessarily being absolutely limiting.  I read it as more like someone from <insert name of shardworld> would not be able to awaken if they acquired Breath (other than Nalthis, of course). 

 

Hoid has been shown to be a special case in a variety of ways.  While he has Lerasium and could have, or could yet, have therefore acquired allomancy, how did he get his Feruchemy?  Unless he is spiked or has been changed by Harmony, such was the case with Spook, he acquired it given his existing sDNA.

 

It is hard to say for sure, since, to my knowledge, Hoid is the only Yolan(ian?, ite?) that we've met other than the Shardholders.  But I think, given the extremely limited number of mortal Yolanites, that they could be a reasonable exception to Brandon's response.

 

Also, I may be misinterpreting what you said, if you read Brandon's response carefully, he says that people from Nalthis do not inherently have 'Breath'.  He leaves the door open for a person not from Nalthis to acquire the awakening ability and to receive 'Breaths' in order to use that ability.  In other words, inherent 'Breath' is a feature exclusive to Nalthis (i.e., a result of Endowment's particular variant of 'humanity').  Other than that, the field is wide open.  

Edited May 15, 2013 by Shardlet

[Kadrok]

Bear with me on this (and cure me of my ignorance if necessary), I am rather new to the Cosmere stuff.  I only have a big picture grounding when it comes to Adonalsium.  If I am not mistaken the shardholders (less Sazed of course) are from Yolen.  Looking back to Mistborn, it has been shown in the books that 'human' life on Scadrial was the result of a joint effort of Preservation (sorry, don't recall off hand his original name) and Ruin (Ati) to create this life. 

 

Presumably, all shardworld 'humans' were created in a similar fashion with, again, presumably, Yolen 'humans' being used as the general pattern but with subtle differences from world-to-world. 

 

Now, regarding Hoid specifically being able to have multiple magic adeptness (i.e., lightweaving, feruchemy, etc.) in conjunction with the comments above about identity.  Hoid is also from Yolen (homeworld) so he embodies the master DNA, if you will, upon which shardworld 'humans' were patterned.  Could this be the reason why Hoid is able to use a variety of magic systems from multiple shardworlds? 

 

In other words, if the sDNA of a person from Scadrial is required to use Feruchemy, etc. in the same way a key is required to open a lock, then could it be that the sDNA from Yolen is some kind of master key which is able to open the locks from each shardworld? 

 

If so, this would go a long way to explaining Hoid's versatility.

 

 

I'm glad to see you've turned this from a post on another theory into a full-fledged theory of its own, and being very Scadrial-locked in my thinking (books are a tad out of my budget of money and time for a little while) I look forward to the discussion.

 

Now, on the matter of Hoid's Feruchemy... my understanding of Investiture is that different expressions of it develop in different ways based on the world and the Shards present. Metal is obviously very Scadrian as a key... but if Hoid and some of his abilities are from before the shattering, as your theory describes, is it possible that the key to Hoid' Feruchemy is NOT metal? Feruchemy separate from its particular context on Scadrial might function differently from the metal-Feruchemy we know and love, utilizing... something else? Or perhaps Yolen-Feruchemy needs no key at all and Hoid is able to dump attributes into another realm (Cognitive, Spiritual... pick one) and draw on them later.

 

Something else to consider. We know that Hoid has a bead Lerasium (sidenote for Shardlet: Leras is the name of the original Preservation Shardholder)... as in... he HAS Lerasium... not had and burnt it, he HAS Lerasium. So he may already have Allomancy, or Yolen-Allomancy (if there is a difference of keys), or he may be keeping it for some other purpose, like the secret primary use of Lerasium we don't know about... OR, and here's where it gets interesting... if his Feruchemy DOES utilize metals, or at least CAN utilize metals, perhaps Hoid is using the bead as a metalmind.

 

Thoughts?

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Well, we know that any remaining pre-shattering magic systems are pretty limited.

 

 

Are there any magic systems in the cosmere that aren't shard based?

 

2) This depends on definitions. The effects of Adonalsium permeate everything, and Adonalsium is also the source of the Shards. It is possible to find a magic that isn't DIRECTLY powered by a specific shard, however, though most of these would have been set up before the shattering and would be much smaller in scope than things like Allomancy and Surgebinding.

 

I think that rules out any ur-allomancy.

[Shardlet]

I think I failed to clearly express what I meant with my master key analogy.  I did not mean to say that because Hoid has Yolen DNA (according to my idea the master blueprint for all Shard-power created humans) that he naturally has the ability to use any shard-based magics.  Rather, I meant that he has the capability of recieving any Shard-based investiture.  Since each investiture is only capable of being used by humans of the associated shardworld (because of the need for compatible sDNA), Hoid's sDNA, being of the source-world DNA (WoB is humanity originated on Yolen) is likewise compatible with the sDNA of each of the shardworld sDNA giving him the capability of receiving an investiture without a (major) sDNA rewrite.

 

I think the biggest flaw in this theory would be the case of Scadrial where, upon consumption and burning of Lerasium, a native Scadrian would have his/her sDNA rewritten to grant allomancy.  In other words possesion of Scadrian sDNA does not equal allomantic ability.  Perhaps the only case I can think of where the Sard-based ability would be universal to the general populous would be Nalthis where if one (having Nalthian sDNA) has sufficient Breaths, then they would have the ability to Awaken (although I may be inccorect on this, I only read Warbreaker once). 

 

That being said, there is a great deal of variety in the utility off-world and by offworld humans.  For example, an allomancer would be able to have their full allomantic strength available to them regardless of the world they were on insofar as they had the metal needed to catalyze the ability.  In contrast, an Elantrain's ability to access and use the Dor is geographically associated so an Elantrian would have a challenging time accessing the Dor effectively if far away from Elantris (such as was shown when Raoden was in Teod) much less off-Sel.  This variety of versatility and limitations among the Shard-based abilities may well give some excuse to quandry of the above paragraph.

 

To sum up (perhaps I should put a note saying read the last paragraph first), I doubt Hoid had any abilities (except for perhaps lightweaving) pre-shattering, but, because he has Yolen DNA (i.e., universal DNA, in the sense of a unverrsal remote), he has capability of receiving investiture of Shard-based abilities from any shardworld without an sDNA rewrite.

 

Edit: edited text in italics.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Shardlet

[Cheese Ninja]

I agree about Yolen being the initial blueprint, but I think Hoid has a significant history that makes him even more adaptable to the magic systems than the average Yolen human.

From the forum Q&A:

InsurrectionistFungus

Did Sazed do anything with the bodies of Ati and Leras after he ascended?

Brandon Sanderson

No, I'm afraid not. Those might have been useful to have around, though.

 

I think their utility stems more from them being the original type of humans than being former Shardholders.

[Shardlet]

Here are some delightful quotes to answer your question, Aventia.

 

Quote

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2383-qa-with-brandon-sanderson/page-6

Can magic systems from one world work in any given other?

Brandon Sanderson

For some, it will take quite a bit of work, but it's possible to get them each to work. Sel's magics are regional, and so they are going to be tough. Scadrial's magics are the easiest.

Quote

Odium's_Shard

Lastly, less pressingly, do Spirit Points (hemalurgic spots) apply to ever magic system, and through the Cosmere at large? Ie. could Hemalurgy be used to take any other magic systems aspects, and do other magic systems also have these 'Points', such as Body Focuses, that work in similar ways?

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgy crosses magic systems. You could steal things from people on other worlds, if you knew the right places for the spikes.

 

 

One thing that hangs a lot of people up about this is the thought that 'How could someone access the power of Preservation when Preservation is not present there?'  In answer to this, I say, remember that the power of all the Shards is the same power of creation.  Thus, the power source should be available on every shardworld at least.  Potentially it could be anywhere in the cosmere since the cosmere was created by the same power of creation which powers the Shards.  Your investiture and sDNA are the key that unlocks a specific door.  But, all the doors ultimately lead to the same place.

 

Edit: added the last paragraph.  500 posts woohoo!  I got me a fourth pip under my picture.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Shardlet

[Aethling]

I really don't have a problem with Hoid being a special case.  A little while back there was a discussion about shards investing their power in a location or planet.  Pre-Shattering Yolen could easily have been attuned to the potential for ALL of the powers.

[Vortaan]

When we think about Hoid's and Feruchemy, I think people tend to forget there is a whole other continent that uses the Metallic Arts in ways we haven't seen yet. It may be possible that Hoid's Feruchemy is used in the more mechanical nature of the Southern Continent and not the Keeper style Feruchemy we are used to

[chronotrigger]

Could the Heralds be from Yolen? It might describe their immortality, (as I believe even with the world hopping and time jumping Hoid would be incredibly old). Furthermore, that could me that the Tranqilline Halls is Yolen. 

[Elementalist]

Could the Heralds be from Yolen? It might describe their immortality, (as I believe even with the world hopping and time jumping Hoid would be incredibly old). Furthermore, that could me that the Tranqilline Halls is Yolen.

I doubt it. More likely their immortality comes from Honor in some way. Also, remember that in Vorin mythology the voidbringers conquered the Tranqilline Halls, and they couldn't have existed on Pre-Shattering Yolen as Odium wouldn't have existed yet.

[Chlehrma]

I like the idea that Hoid can acquire these abilities because his planet's people were the template for all others. It makes a certain amount of sense. I do not remember reading anywhere about Hoid being a Ferichemist. I do recall that Hoid acquired a bead of Lerasium, so it is possible he is a mistborn.

Tangents:

Considering how different the Terris people are from the human races of Scadrial, I wonder if they were actually transplanted from Yolen.

Considering that Hoid wears black (black having the most color for awakening) and has spent time on ? (Warbringer world) he most likely has over 2000 breaths. I believe this because even with time jumps, he does not appear to age.

Edited December 22, 2013 by Chlehrma

[Swimmingly]

I like the idea that Hoid can acquire these abilities because his planet's people were the template for all others. It makes a certain amount of sense. I do not remember reading anywhere about Hoid being a Ferichemist. I do recall that Hoid acquired a bead of Lerasium, so it is possible he is a mistborn.

Tangents:

Considering how different the Terris people are from the human races of Scadrial, I wonder if they were actually transplanted from Yolen.

Considering that Hoid wears black (black having the most color for awakening) and has spent time on ? (Warbringer world) he most likely has over 2000 breaths. I believe this because even with time jumps, he does not appear to age.

It's also possible that a large enough Splinter of any shard makes you functionally immortal while you hold it - So atium, when burnt feruchemically, simply gives you enough Ruin that you do not age. Except I just remembered that Feruchemical atium compounded can reduce you to a baby, so never mind

[Oudeis]

Considering that Hoid wears black (black having the most color for awakening) and has spent time on ? (Warbringer world) he most likely has over 2000 breaths. I believe this because even with time jumps, he does not appear to age.

There's WoB somewhere that Hoid does what he has to do, and then jumps forward in time (or something very much like that) in order to get to the next event without dying of old age. One quote says something like, "Hoid hasn't lived through all the time there's been since he was born."

If he was at the 5th heightening and were therefore ageless, the color distortion around him would be enormously obvious.

[Chlehrma]

There's WoB somewhere that Hoid does what he has to do, and then jumps forward in time (or something very much like that) in order to get to the next event without dying of old age. One quote says something like, "Hoid hasn't lived through all the time there's been since he was born."

If he was at the 5th heightening and were therefore ageless, the color distortion around him would be enormously obvious.

Good point, I forgot about the color distortion. Didn't Brandon also say something along the lines of Hoid being older if both real time and age than he appears?

[Shardlet]

Brandon said that notwithstanding the time jumping he is far older than a person can normally live.

 

Source

Q: Brandon, you're awesome for doing this. Thanks for being so open. I have some very theoretical cosmere questions (as usual), but I'll keep it spoiler light.
Can Hoid jump through time? If so, can Shards jump through time?

A: Hoid, so far, has only moved forward in time. He has not 'lived' all of those years, but has used some time dilation techniques. That said, he is far older (both in relative and real time) than a normal person can live.

[Cheese Ninja]

The 5th Heightening seems like the simplest Cosmere method so far for attaining Immortality, but I doubt it's the mechanism that Hoid uses.  From the all the comments I've seen, the Liar of Partinel is supposed to take place hundreds of years before the Dragonsteel books.  I'm not sure when the Shattering of Adonalsium is supposed to take place, but I assume it is sometime between the beginning of Partinel and end of the Dragonsteel books.  Since we know Hoid was at the Shattering, he achieves his immortality well before other magic systems have had time to develop, possibly even before the Shattering.

 

The thing that bothers me is that it seems like the rest of the humanity is just made in imitation of the Yolen humans.  That feels kind of tacky, like the Yolen humans are somehow superior.   I prefer to think that Yolen humans would be more like a Jack of All Trades-Master of None.  In that case, a normal Yolen human would be incapable of properly accessing the magic systems to the degree of a native, even if they somehow fulfill the other normal requirements, such as Breath for Awakening or a Nahel bond for Surgebinding.  Hemalurgy could probably be used on them to impart a world-specific magic system, but I think that applies for any non-native magic user.  But I do think there's something in Hoid's particular history that does impart greater access and abilities.

 

Hmm, now that I look back through this thread, I see my post was mostly just repeating already stated stuff, probably why I post so infrequently lately.

 

Note to Chlerma about the Hoid Feruchemy thing, it's how he knows when and where to be: It almost certainly predated his acquisition of the Lerasium bead.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Cheese Ninja

[Stormgate]

When did Hoid show Feruchemical abilities? I was not aware of this. If he uses it to get where he needs to be when he needs to be there, what metal does he use? Hoid is known to be Mistborn, having burned the lerasium and being documented as swallowing metals with the intent to burn them. It is likely he has reached the Second heightening, but it is unknown whether he can actually Awaken things. Last I heard, he had no spikes in him, and I still don't know how he can Lightweave (He says in WoR that he isn't a KR, and thus must be getting his Lightweaving from another magic system. Given his white hair, he likely is at least half Elantrian, though I have no idea how that could happen.

In any case, Hoid is not a normal Yolen. He knew many, if not all, of the Sixteen Shards, and it has been confirmed that the Shards knew each other pre-Shattering. While Hoid does not hold any Shard, he may hold a Sliver of Adonalsium. This may somehow be linked to his versitality in using magic systems, but for now it's a theory.

Not to say your theory can't be right, I just think that of all the Sanderson characters that refuse to follow a mold, Hoid is the character that is least likely to ever be called average, and if Hoid heard about someone calling him average, he would get so upset that Hoid would march right up to them and spin their words around till the words got dizzy. I wouldn't be surprised if eventually Hoid makes a threat much like that one, probably on Roshar, given his greater role there than on Scadrial or Sel.

[Moogle]

When did Hoid show Feruchemical abilities? I was not aware of this. If he uses it to get where he needs to be when he needs to be there, what metal does he use? Hoid is known to be Mistborn, having burned the lerasium and being documented as swallowing metals with the intent to burn them.

 

At the moment, it's purely through WoB that we know.:

Mike Cockrum

Hoid is regularly around when important events take place. How does he know where to go?

Brandon Sanderson

He uses Feruchemy. Part of it that will show up in later books.

(source)

 

Your guess is as good as ours. Some suggest he taps a ton of luck and throws darts at a map. One person suggested a metal (be it an alloy of a god metal or whatever) stores serendipity.

[Ari]

 

At the moment, it's purely through WoB that we know.:

 

Your guess is as good as ours. Some suggest he taps a ton of luck and throws darts at a map. One person suggested a metal (be it an alloy of a god metal or whatever) stores serendipity.

 

Or he could just store feruchemical luck, then tap it before deciding where to go next.

 

edit: LOL and somehow I missed that you said that exact thing ><

 

On the OP, I'm not entirely sure that's how sDNA works. I always viewed it more as the "spiritual" things about yourself that don't change over time, eg. where you were born, your species, etc...

Edited October 31, 2015 by Ari