Surgebinding Attributes

[Windrunner]

Ok, this is just a thought that's been in my head for a while. I can't find a topic that I can post it in without getting off topic so I'm starting this. If any admin knows of a better spot for this post, feel free to move it there.

I keep seeing people talk about the truthspren (aka symbolheads, but in my mind there is no doubt thats what they are called so that's how I will refer to them.) One of the main problems people keep having is that they say, "Why would a truthspren be attracted to Shallan when she's the biggest liar in the whole book?". I just wanted to point something out. It is my firm belief that the Nahel spren don't just bond with anyone. If I was on Roshar and decided to tell the truth for a day, I wouldn't end up with a truthspren. They are attracted by the defining attributes of a person. Shallan's defining attributes are creativity and honesty, regardless of what she was currently doing. They make who she is as a person. Her drawings are a part of her, and I do believe she thinks about having never told a lie before, in TWoK, but I could be wrong. It's not what she is currently doing, it's character based.

That's why Dalinar would fall into Resolute Builder. He may be destructive and confused for most of the events of the book, but those attributes define who he is. For most of his life, he's known exactly what he wanted to to, he was resolved, to rebuild Alethela. The same goes for Kaladin. No matter how much he gives up, his desire to protect and lead define who he is as a character. And that is why Syl doesn't leave, even through all those months of him sitting in the slave wagon. IT's who he is and what he does. I hope this isn't out of place, I just wanted to correct what I see as being a misunderstanding that I've noticed in a couple places. If you feel that I've misunderstood something, please comment, I would love to debate it with you.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Windrunner

[Voidus]

That's exactly how I see it too. You couldn't suddenly gain the soulcasting ability by just spouting a whole lot of true things to form the nahel-bond. I think it's more about having a drive to be truthful, or act with honour.

[ReaderAt2046]

Ok, this is just a thought that's been in my head for a while. I can't find a topic that I can post it in without getting off topic so I'm starting this. If any admin knows of a better spot for this post, feel free to move it there.

I keep seeing people talk about the truthspren (aka symbolheads, but in my mind there is no doubt thats what they are called so that's how I will refer to them.) One of the main problems people keep having is that they say, "Why would a truthspren be attracted to Shallan when she's the biggest liar in the whole book?". I just wanted to point something out. It is my firm belief that the Nahel spren don't just bond with anyone. If I was on Roshar and decided to tell the truth for a day, I wouldn't end up with a truthspren. They are attracted by the defining attributes of a person. Shallan's defining attributes are creativity and honesty, regardless of what she was currently doing. They make who she is as a person. Her drawings are a part of her, and I do believe she thinks about having never told a lie before, in TWoK, but I could be wrong. It's not what she is currently doing, it's character based.

That's why Dalinar would fall into Resolute Builder. He may be destructive and confused for most of the events of the book, but those attributes define who he is. For most of his life, he's known exactly what he wanted to to, he was resolved, to rebuild Alethela. The same goes for Kaladin. No matter how much he gives up, his desire to protect and lead define who he is as a character. And that is why Syl doesn't leave, even through all those months of him sitting in the slave wagon. IT's who he is and what he does. I hope this isn't out of place, I just wanted to correct what I see as being a misunderstanding that I've noticed in a couple places. If you feel that I've misunderstood something, please comment, I would love to debate it with you.

Determination and leadership are the two attributes Dalinar has chosen to define himself by, so that supports your position.

[Telcontar]

I keep seeing people talk about the truthspren (aka symbolheads, but in my mind there is no doubt thats what they are called so that's how I will refer to them.) One of the main problems people keep having is that they say, "Why would a truthspren be attracted to Shallan when she's the biggest liar in the whole book?".

I just wanted to point something out. It is my firm belief that the Nahel spren don't just bond with anyone. If I was on Roshar and decided to tell the truth for a day, I wouldn't end up with a truthspren. They are attracted by the defining attributes of a person. Shallan's defining attributes are creativity and honesty, regardless of what she was currently doing. They make who she is as a person. Her drawings are a part of her, and I do believe she thinks about having never told a lie before, in TWoK, but I could be wrong. It's not what she is currently doing, it's character based.

Yeah, you probably now that I'm one of those guys you mention

What you are missing, in my opinion, is that spren are not attracted by the defining attributes of a person but by actions If it were only your attributes, and if Kaladin has always been a protective person (that's what you say, isn't it?) then why did Syl only arrive when he started ACTING as a protector by saving the young Tien-ressembling recruits.

It's all about actions. That's one of my problems with that truthspren-interpretation. Because one may be honest, but you would have to act honestly. I don't believe that's the same as never speaking a lie.

I don't know if you've followed this thread. That's where I try to explain why spren are only attracted by actions in accordance with the primary attribute, which happens to be the Heraldic ideal after which the order is formed.

So I refuse the idea that the spren responsible for the Primary Investiture (the Bond ('Nahel Bond') which grants you abilities.) could be attracted by actions according to a secondary attribute.

Still, you're right about saying that one sole action would not be sufficient to attract a spren. It is, of course, the repeated actions. Btw, spren can only be attracted by actions and not by the attributes themselves, otherwise one would say that they could read your mind. And I don't think that's possible. If they could, why would the symbolhead want Shallan to tell a truth?

Anyway, we've had the discussion over on that other thread, you can read my opinion and my arguments over there.

That's why Dalinar would fall into Resolute Builder. He may be destructive and confused for most of the events of the book, but those attributes define who he is. For most of his life, he's known exactly what he wanted to to, he was resolved, to rebuild Alethela. The same goes for Kaladin. No matter how much he gives up, his desire to protect and lead define who he is as a character. And that is why Syl doesn't leave, even through all those months of him sitting in the slave wagon. IT's who he is and what he does. I hope this isn't out of place, I just wanted to correct what I see as being a misunderstanding that I've noticed in a couple places. If you feel that I've misunderstood something, please comment, I would love to debate it with you.

Syl doesn't leave because she is already bonded to Kaladin. Remember that Kaladin escaped like ten times in eight months, always trying to save his co-slaves? That's protecting in a way. Syl manifested herself when Kaladin had finally given up (after eight months of trying) to struggle against his situation.

About Dalinar. We'll have to analyse how he acted to know in which order he will end up. The problem is, he would fit into more than one category.

The reason why he came to the SP in the first place was to protect Elhokar. He manipulated other Highprinces in order to protect Elhokar as a king and as his nephew. He protected a whole company of bridgemen by trading his Shardblade. He protected Elhokar from the chasmfiend.

Did anyone else ever consider that maybe Dalinar could become a Windrunner himself? The fact that Kaladin is going to be one does not necessarily exclude Dalinar becoming one. In the Dalinar chapters you will often find Jezrien-heads in the archway, pointing to that conclusion. However, later there is also Nalan who appears often. We've seen with Kaladin that there can be a change in the Herald-heads associated with a character. The surgeon-Kaladin was always accompanied with Vedeledev-heads (loving-healing). The squadleader-Kaladin is accompanied with Talenelat-heads (dependable-ressourceful). It's only in his Windrunner-chapters, that Jezrien appears.

So: Nalan (just/confident). Dalinar would need to have acted just. "Never demand something of your men that you wouldn't do in their place". Following the Codes is just. Also trading a Shardblade for the lives of that much bridgemen coud be seen as just. then there is the Herald-heads of course.

third order: Brave/obedient. Not much clues there. You could say that he is brave in combat, but he did not fight often before his alliance with Sadeas. It's probably not brave.

Seventh order: Wise/careful: is following the Codes and showing it openly, enforcing them in his camp wise? certainly, those are the most honorable soldiers of the army. Those who are the most likely to be prepared for the Everstorm.

Eight order: Resolute/builder: enforcing the Codes certainly is resolute. He also sticks with his decision to protect Elhokar, no matter what it takes. This is the favorite choice for many of you, so I won't say more.

Ninth order: Dependable/ressourceful: he keeps his word. especially about saving the bridgemen.

Again: it's not Dalinar's inner thoughts that will attract his spren, but his actions. If we assume that Dalinar has already attracted a spren, then his actions must have taken place for some months back. I'm going for Just or Protecting.

[Triasmus]

I have to agree with Telcontar. You are how you Act. I see no possible way how that statement can be refuted.

EDIT: Nevermind, I'm going to agree with all of you (I think, there's a chance that I'm agreeing with none of you ) when I say you are how you Act. How you act defines who you are, with the more recent actions given a bigger slice of the definition pie (a single action will still be way small, I'm just saying yesterday's actions define who you are more than an action ten years ago). Spren are attracted to you depending on how tasty your pie is .

third order: Brave/obedient. Not much clues there. You could say that he is brave in combat, but he did not fight often before his alliance with Sadeas. It's probably not brave.

There are many ways to be brave. It seems as if everyone is telling him that living by the codes is stupid. Is it not a form of bravery to resist peer pressure?

I don't think I'd call bravery his defining attribute, but I would call him a brave person.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Lantern13

[ReaderAt2046]

Determination and leadership are the two attributes Dalinar has chosen to define himself by, so that supports your position.

For this reason, I think he's either a Metalborn or a Windrunner.

[Windrunner]

@Telcontar

You make a valid point on actions, but I have a question for you. Doesn't this mean someone coud fake their way into becoming a Surgebinder? They wouldn't have to believe in their actions, only follow an attribute and you suddenly have an evil character with good guy powers. It seems the intent of Honor in the magic system wouldn't allow just your outward actions to give you power.

Dalinar fits eight perfectly in my mind. I really think his ultimate goal is tor rebuild Althela. Maybe I missed where this you explained this but if you believe actions alone form the bond, then how did Shallan end up with a truthspren? (They might be confirmed to be called truthspren, we'll see when Zas posts his new interview) Is this why you believe the spren to be the guardians of Shadesmar? It seems random to me that there is just this one spren type that will let anybody truthful in. Wouldn't the world know about them by now? You also say that Syl only bonded with Kaladin when he started protecting, but that may or may not be true. Something odd is happening the now Surgebinding is returning to Roshar. It couldn't have always been there, because I find it hard to believe that in 4500 years no one was Honorable enough to attract one of those spren. Also Syl could have left Kaladin whenever she wanted, she even offers to at one point.

Perhaps Lantern13 is right and we can unite our diverging beliefs, he makes an interesting point. I will also concede that Brandon said what you do, is what gives magic not who you are. Maybe acting in accordance with your basic traits? Kaladin could have chosen to be selfish, and not go back to help Dalinar on the Tower, even though his attribut of Protection wanted him to. But he acted in line with it, and he actually ended up swearing the second Oath. On a related note, how did Kaladin know what the Oath was? Did he ever speak the first one, or was it just something he had to be in accordance with to be able tp swear the Second Oath.

@Reader

I agree that those two Orders are where Dalinar likely falls. I certainly hope for eight, to see a wider view of the powers, but I'm cool with however it pans out. I would be careful with using the term metalborn though. You mean Order 8 right? On Scadrial metalborn (albeit lower-cased) is the generic term for someone who uses any of the Metallic Arts so that could get confusing.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Windrunner

[Aradel]

Why does it have to be character traits or actions? They go hand in hand.

Spen bind with someone because of defining personal traits, and the only traits that matter are the ones that become actions. They have to "walk the walk" so to speak.

Another thing I want to bring up is that the time when Syl started talking with kaladin, and the truthspren began appearing to Shallan was when they both were struggling with the ideals we've been talking about. Kaladin doubts himself as a leader, Shallan is deceiving Jasnah...

It seems that the times when they're struggleing with the attributes that mark their presumed orders is some kind of step in the bonding process.

[Odium's_Shard]

This would make sense.

It is a more defining trait of character in a person if they can feel doubt about their actions and then overcome it and end up confident in your abilities than to never doubt yourself in the first place.

Perhaps the act of being doubtful in one's traits and then overcoming the doubt to reach a better conclusion of who you are that draws the appropriate spren.

[Telcontar]

@Telcontar

You make a valid point on actions, but I have a question for you. Doesn't this mean someone coud fake their way into becoming a Surgebinder? They wouldn't have to believe in their actions, only follow an attribute and you suddenly have an evil character with good guy powers. It seems the intent of Honor in the magic system wouldn't allow just your outward actions to give you power.

Dalinar fits eight perfectly in my mind. I really think his ultimate goal is tor rebuild Althela. Maybe I missed where this you explained this but if you believe actions alone form the bond, then how did Shallan end up with a truthspren? (They might be confirmed to be called truthspren, we'll see when Zas posts his new interview) Is this why you believe the spren to be the guardians of Shadesmar? It seems random to me that there is just this one spren type that will let anybody truthful in. Wouldn't the world know about them by now? You also say that Syl only bonded with Kaladin when he started protecting, but that may or may not be true. Something odd is happening the now Surgebinding is returning to Roshar. It couldn't have always been there, because I find it hard to believe that in 4500 years no one was Honorable enough to attract one of those spren. Also Syl could have left Kaladin whenever she wanted, she even offers to at one point.

Perhaps Lantern13 is right and we can unite our diverging beliefs, he makes an interesting point. I will also concede that Brandon said what you do, is what gives magic not who you are. Maybe acting in accordance with your basic traits? Kaladin could have chosen to be selfish, and not go back to help Dalinar on the Tower, even though his attribut of Protection wanted him to. But he acted in line with it, and he actually ended up swearing the second Oath. On a related note, how did Kaladin know what the Oath was? Did he ever speak the first one, or was it just something he had to be in accordance with to be able tp swear the Second Oath.

Yes, I think someone could 'fake' his way into becoming a Surgebinder. Szeth could be an indication to that. There is that difference between Surgebinders and Knights Radiants. It could still be possible, that acting according to the ten Ideals is not the only way to bind a spren. We also don't know if the honorable interpretation of the attribute is the only one that attracts spren. Protecting: you can protect one person at all cost (bodyguard) and causing a lot of damage in the process. Or you can be very creative in inventing different forms of torture. Just random thoughts. What made the KR special is the honorable interpretation of the Ideal: I will protect those who cannot protect themselves.

There is also the quote fron Nohadon that Alakavish, a Surgebinder did bad things, and not all spren were as discerning as honorspren.

I say that Surgebinding does not necessarily come along with being a good guy. It's like you could do very bad things using Preservation.

Shalland ending up with a truthspren: it is my belief (even if I may be the only one to support it) that symbolheads are not responsible for Shallan's Surgebinding. they are in fact what I have called 'Guardians' of Shadesmar. that term may be misleading, I admit. I believe their function is to permit people access to Shadesmar. the bonding just makes the symbolhead follow you, so that you have always one at hand, when you need one. The telling of the truth would then be needed so that the symbolhead may recognize your cognitive aspect (or something like that).

About Surgebinding returning. We would have to know when the Recreance took place. We've seen in Mistborn that a Shard's power regenerates (every 1024 years), maybe something like this happened. We don't know, this is pure speculation.

The speaking of the Oath... There is a theory which treats this exact problem. 'An Amendment' I haven't really thought about it yet. The only thing I found very intriguing is that just before Kaladin spoke his Oath, there was someone speaking in capitals to him (THE WORDS). The only other time we have someone speaking in capitals to someone is during Kaladin's dream. Whoever that is would probably give us clues about where the words came from.

Why does it have to be character traits or actions? They go hand in hand.

Spen bind with someone because of defining personal traits, and the only traits that matter are the ones that become actions. They have to "walk the walk" so to speak.

Another thing I want to bring up is that the time when Syl started talking with kaladin, and the truthspren began appearing to Shallan was when they both were struggling with the ideals we've been talking about. Kaladin doubts himself as a leader, Shallan is deceiving Jasnah...

It seems that the times when they're struggleing with the attributes that mark their presumed orders is some kind of step in the bonding process.

I believe Syl appeared because she didn't want to go back to being dumb. If Kaladin had stopped acting like a protector, she probably would have broken the Bond. But she doesn't want to. So she tries to keep Kaladin being a protector.

and I don't see the symbolheads as spren responsible for Shallan's abilities, so...

Hope I was clear.

And I'd really like to read that interview with a possible answer about 'truthspren'.

[Triasmus]

I also think that One's actions will start to change One's attributes/beliefs/whatever. A bad guy might decide to start doing honorable actions to fool spren/people/God(), but their honorable actions will start changing who they are as person until, eventually, they do honorable actions because of who they are instead of because they're trying to fool somebody.

Of course, Telcontar might be right in that surgebinding doesn't necessarily come with only the good half of the ten attributes. Maybe there's a dishonor spren o.0

[Odium's_Shard]

I agree with both Telcontar and Windrunner about their points on becoming a Surgebinder.

Everyone's personal motivation is led by their beliefs, what they think is right, wrong, bad. Taravangian is a good case in point. He may be doing the wrong thing, but for the right reason, or at least what he thinks are the 'right' reasons. In this way, nothing is right. Nothing is wrong. Some things are frowned upon, actively disdained, or even considered criminal. But all in all, its a moral mindset, which is guided by your personality, that leads to your actions in all circumstances. Nervous people don't walk right up to the front desk and ask where the toilet is. It isn't morally 'correct' for them to do this. They may not shake over with fear, etc, but their personality just influenced their decision.

And so, considering what the person's belief on 'right' is, guides his actions. Spren can't be discriminative in this way like humans. They can't pick right against wrong, whatever those may be. They are just attracted to the personality, which guides your actions. But I take Lantern's point that, eventually, your actions can make an impact on your mindset. Like standing up for yourself suddenly, on an impulse, may lead to more confidence. However, I don't think you can 'fake' your into a Nahel bond. You have to be honest in what you are, as the spren can tell whether you truly follow your actions with reasons, so you can't 'pretend' to be leading, you just have to be, in all circumstances. A natural leader. Not someone who shrugs and say 'Ok then'. Someone who steps up against every foe.

But you can be a Surgebinder, doing the wrong thing for the right reasons (depending on your interpretation of 'right' and 'wrong').

[ReaderAt2046]

Something interesting I discovered.

The first time Kaladin draws in the Light without needing it is right after he is told that his crew will be on bridge duty every time. This is one of the times when he is most protective and leading (he's infuriated at her for trying to kill off his men.)

[Zas678]

Brandon didn't want to canonize it, but he said that Truthspren would probably be a good enough name. He didn't want to set it in stone yet.

And from what he said, the names aren't as set in stone as we think they are. There's been in-world debate about what the Nahel Bond/Attribute Spren should be called.

[Bunyod]

@Telcontar

You make a valid point on actions, but I have a question for you. Doesn't this mean someone coud fake their way into becoming a Surgebinder? They wouldn't have to believe in their actions, only follow an attribute and you suddenly have an evil character with good guy powers. It seems the intent of Honor in the magic system wouldn't allow just your outward actions to give you power.

This is priceless!

[marianmi]

Dalinar's order is very obvious.

RESOLUTE/BUILDER

1) he does great feats when he is "resolute". Re-read when he saves Elhokar - you will see that he became "resolute", there is a quote how all his worries and restrictions dissolved when his brother's son was in danger. Similarly when Adolin does not blame him in the tower battle, he is then able to battle without the thrill. Lastly, at the end of the book, "he knows what to do", he is resolved and has a clear purpose, no doubts anymore.

2) builder - he long-dreams of building a united country. simple as that though, we will build more than that i guess.

Dalinar is on the verge of "leveling up", and discovering the words.

EDIT -- now he is also without armour, so he can properly make use of stormlight.

Edited August 13, 2012 by marianmi

[callumke]

I think there is an extra part of becoming a surgebinder - being extremely good at something.

The ardernts say that the Almighty will reward excellence in any field. That is where the idea of a calling comes from.

I think this means that you need to follow the primary/secondary divine attributes AND be excellent at something.

Kaladin is a master of the spear, Shallan is great at drawing, Jasnah is a great Scholar and Dalinar is a supreme strategist and general. And Szeth... is special

[Thought]

Random question: are the Nahel clearly defined somewhere as the symbolheads/truthspreen? People seem to be taking it for granted that they're the same, but I don't recall any link between the two.

[ReaderAt2046]

Random question: are the Nahel clearly defined somewhere as the symbolheads/truthspreen? People seem to be taking it for granted that they're the same, but I don't recall any link between the two.

Well, we know that the Nahel bond grants Surgebinding powers, we know that Soulcasting is a form of Surgebinding, and we know that the symbolheads have something to do with Soulcasting.

[Uduak]

Regardin the reason of the creation of A Nahel bond i'm inclined to the "Act along your traits" and regarding Shallan i have something to say, just because one time you decieved a person doesn't mean you're not a honest,sincere person and Shallan did feel guilty about this all time (before and after the act). Btw i also agree about the doubt as another thing that concern the Bonding,though i also think there must be something else because as someone before me stated it's strange that for so many time there weren't any Surgebinding user. May the reason be about the Shards or the "destiny" or being excellent at something (like Arcadia said), this i not know.

Another Thing: If the Spren are attracted by the acts, Shallan does acts honestly along the book (except the stealing thing) and after all it's not a lie tha she was glad to have as a teacher Jesna. My point is: The stealing is not the only reason why she wanted to become Jesna's student, she also wanted to follow her passion (study) and isn't this honest? Jesna -while seeing his drawing book- did say that she(Shallan) dedicated his life to the study of the world or something like this,right? And seeing and drawing the world as it is falls in the Sincerity area, After all almost all his drawings were what she saw and preserved in his memory not works of imagination. I can say she is a valid candidate as "food" for Truth SPren

[The Count]

I think there is an extra part of becoming a surgebinder - being extremely good at something.

The ardernts say that the Almighty will reward excellence in any field. That is where the idea of a calling comes from.

I think this means that you need to follow the primary/secondary divine attributes AND be excellent at something.

Kaladin is a master of the spear, Shallan is great at drawing, Jasnah is a great Scholar and Dalinar is a supreme strategist and general. And Szeth... is special

I think this must be right on the money, but I suspect thst the expertise must come first.

So you study / train and becom an expert in your field. Then it is how you use that skill that attracts a spren / bond or not.

Kaladin is a great spearman / leader and he chose to use those skill to try and protect others.

Dalinar is a great warlord and strategist and he has chosen to use this to try and build a stronger nation.

Shallan is a great artist / scholar and she chooses to use this to seek the truth of events.

Jasnah is a great scholar and thinker and also chooses to search for truth.

Szeth... never fits into any threories about surgebinding... he is just odd.

So I think it must be the way in which you decide to use your skills that attracts a spren bond or not.

On another note, I think that 'something' happened seven years before WoK. I find it a little strange that in 4,500 years ther have been no-one who has attracted a spren bond, now suddenly there are 4 (and 1 Szeth) that we know of.

So seven years ago, Gavilar met the Parshendi, Seth became Truthless, Dalinar started having visions, spren bonds started appearing again.

My guess is that these are all related somehow... I can't shake the feeling (baseless and devoid of any evidence) that whatever this event was, it was something Szeth did. Mostly because he just doesn't seem to fit in...

Sorry to go off topic at the end there a bit.