Theory: The Recreance (Spoilers)

[hoser]

I've been trying to understand why the Knights Radiant quit.

There are theories:

1. A deal with Odium to end Desolations.
   
2. Understood that they were really serving Odium.
   
3. In response to Tanavast's death.
   
4. Being used non-Desolation wars between kingdoms. (Suggested below by dyring)
   
5. Because they were told by the Heralds that they had won and that there would be no more desolations. (Suggested below by Kelek)
   
6. Part of a long term plan to foil Odium which, in the short term, forced at least some of them to violate their oaths.
   

There is a Brandon Q&A that deals with this question and seems to indicate that there is a distinct trigger for the Recreance. It does not shed any light on whether there are Desolations between the Prelude and the rest of The Way of Kings.

I favor the first because the conditions at the end of the Oathpact seem different than at the Day of Recreance and there seem not to be any Desolations after the Radiants quit.

They also claim that it is their "duty and privilege to stay vigilant for the Desolations". Thus they could honorably declare victory if believed they were at an end. This seems consistent with either 1 or 5 above.

Related questions:

1. Were there any Desolations between the "Shattering" of the Oathpact and the Day of Recreance?
   
2. What happened to the Radiants?
   
3. What changed that Odium can initiate another Desolation now?
   

What do people think?

Edited: Add theories

Edited March 1, 2012 by hoser

[dyring]

This is just speculation, I have no real proof, but this is how I believed(and still believe I think;)

I think the desolation where the heralds quit was the last desolation. And they do specifically say that humanity will still have the knights radiant, and that they will say that they have finaly won to explain them abandoning their posts.

I think the knight radiants dissolved later. I think they where used in regular wars, not against the voidbringers, or atleast not in a desolation. I think they quit, disgusted that rulers would use them against eachothers, in petty war from conquest or simular. It sais they came back from the front in Dalinar´s vison, but I can´t remember it being mentioned what the fron was fighting. I think it was just another realm.

As such, I think Odium waited with making a new desolation because the heralds stepping down gave him the chance at breaking his deal with honor, attacking him. As such, he spent a long time killing honor, meaning he didnt have time doing desolations. After that, maybe he went to deal with Aona and Skai. Then rebuilding his strength, perhaps he think hes fully built up now?

Edited November 26, 2011 by dyring

[hoser]

This is just speculation, I have no real proof, but this is how I believed(and still believe I think;)

I think the desolation where the heralds quit was the last desolation. And they do specifically say that humanity will still have the knights radiant, and that they will say that they have finaly won to explain them abandoning their posts.

I think the knight radiants dissolved later. I think they where used in regular wars, not against the voidbringers, or atleast not in a desolation. I think they quit, disgusted that rulers would use them against eachothers, in petty war from conquest or simular. It sais they came back from the front in Dalinar´s vison, but I can´t remember it being mentioned what the fron was fighting. I think it was just another realm.

As such, I think Odium waited with making a new desolation because the heralds stepping down gave him the chance at breaking his deal with honor, attacking him. As such, he spent a long time killing honor, meaning he didnt have time doing desolations. After that, maybe he went to deal with Aona and Skai. Then rebuilding his strength, perhaps he think hes fully built up now?

Very interesting response. Thank you. I tried to incorporate your theory into the head post. Please correct me if you think I misinterpreted your theory significantly. It seems possible that things happened the way you say. Which makes me think of my assumptions. There are a number of events whose order is not clear to me:

1. Death of Honor
   
2. Destruction of Natanatan
   
3. Oathpact Termination
   
4. Day of Recreance
   
5. Most recent Desolation
   

At the Oathpact Termination, there are clearly still Knights Radiant, so that orders those two events. You seem to be saying that The Knights Radiant quit after the end of the Oathpact, and that there have been no Desolations since the end of the Oathpact. You also believe that the Radiants were caught up in non-Desolation struggles.

I envisioned the Heralds quitting before the most recent Desolation and that there were some number of Desolations that were held back by just Talanel'Elin, the KR and their allies including the Silver Kingdoms. I also envision the Silver Kingdoms holding together until after the Recreance.

The only evidence I can find is from the Prelude, the Midnight Essence Vision and the Recreance Vision. In the Prelude, the conditions described are different than those at the Recreance as detailed below. In the Midnight Essence Vision the Knights Radiant seem to be figuring out when the Desolations are coming on their own, so the 9 Heralds could have already quit (This supposes that the Radiants were depending on the Heralds to "herald" the coming of the desolations before the shattering of the Oathpact. After the Oathpact Talanel would have been coming back anyway, so this argument is not strong). In the Recreance Vision the only reference to the enemy is as "devils". Is there any evidence that the Radiants were used in non-Desolation battles?

The differing conditions between the Prelude and the Day of Recreance are:

1. Prelude fighters in ragged tanned skins or shoddy leather vs Recreance reserve troops in armor and bronze helms
   
2. Prelude bronze spearpoints vs Recreance steel spearpoints
   
3. Prelude furious battle, " ... one of the worst. The enemy was growing increasingly tenacious." vs Recreance reasonably well equipped reserve castle well behind the front lines and not expecting to be challenged.
   
4. Day of Recreance
   
5. Most recent Desolation
   

These differing conditions could also be due to differences between parts of Roshar.

One argument for there being no Desolations since the shattering of the Oathpact is that if the Heralds declared victory and then there were more Desolations, they might not have been viewed with as much reverence.

The Stormlight Timeline lists the order as Midnight Essence Vision, Oathpact Termination+Most Recent Desolation, Day of Recreance.

I think the Midnight Essence vision could be between the Oathpact Termination and the Recreance and that the end of the Most Recent Desolation could correspond to the Day of Recreance.

This gives a different timeline:

1. Possible Desolations
   
2. Oathpact Start
   
3. Desolations
   
4. Nohadon organizes Silver Kingdoms, writes/dictates WoK
   
5. Knights Radiant form
   
6. Desolations
   
7. Possible Midnight Essence Vision Occurrence
   
8. Oathpact Termination
   
9. Possible Desolations
   
10. Alternate Midnight Essence Vision Occurrence
    
11. More Possible Desolations
    
12. Day of Recreance+End of Most Recent Past Desolation
    
13. Death of Tanavast (Honor)
    

The destruction of Nanatanan could occur anytime after the Midnight Essence Vision.

The arguments for the Most Recent Desolation being after the end of the Oathpact are:

1. the varying conditions between the Prelude and the Recreance Vision,
   
2. the reference to the Radiants' opponents being devils,
   
3. the Heralds' ignorance in the prelude about whether the Desolations would end when the 9 walked away and
   
4. Jezrien's insistence that
   "They have the Radiants. That will be enough."
   .
   

I believe that the degree of detail in the visions places the Death of Tanavast after the Day of Recreance. I don't see how any Desolation after the Day of Recreance could have been defeated, so the Day of Recreance must have coincided with the end of the most recent past Desolation.

There is a lot of flimsy evidence involved in this assemblage. I really want to know what people think about these ideas and what I may have missed.

Edited November 28, 2011 by hoser

[Wispsy]

I don't think there are any desolations after the heralds stop, they tell them they won and since then there is no signs of desolations until taln shows up afaik

[Kelek]

IMO, the Radiants quit for two reasons.

1. The Heralds quit and said they won the last desolation(most recent)

2. Without desolations, the need for the orders "to remain vigilant for the desolations"(not an exact quote, but I don't have the reference with me) was no longer valid due to the first.

There may be other factors to this, related to the theories above, but I feel this is the basest of reasons.

[hoser]

IMO, the Radiants quit for two reasons.

1. The Heralds quit and said they won the last desolation(most recent)

2. Without desolations, the need for the orders "to remain vigilant for the desolations"(not an exact quote, but I don't have the reference with me) was no longer valid due to the first.

There may be other factors to this, related to the theories above, but I feel this is the basest of reasons.

Thanks! This seems to be a quite reasonable alternative theory. I tried to include it in the head post. Please let me know if I failed to do it justice. I also seem to be covering some of the same ground as your timeline thread.

As I understand this theory, the Day of Recreance would immediately follow the shattering of the Oathpact.

Looking for more evidence, I found the following in Chapter 42 Paperback p 737:

"The ardents taught something else. They spoke of the Lost Radiants - called the Knights Radiant then - fighting off Voidbringers during the war to hold Roshar. According to these teachings, it was only after defeating the Voidbringers - and the departure of the Heralds - that the Radiants had fallen."

And then in Chapter 28:

The book is a copy of a text originally written in

the years before the Recreance. However, the illustrations are copied from another text, even older. In

fact, some think that picture was drawn only two or three generations after the Heralds departed.

I am too lazy to look for it now, but I remember there being a description of the "Heraldic Epoch" somewhere else that might harbor a clue. I wonder whether someone with an ebook version might be able to just search for it.

The quote in the first spoiler does not seem to clearly indicate that there were Desolations after the Oathpact Shattering, but it does imply to me that the Radiants persisted for a significant amount of time after the end of the Oathpact. If the Radiants were in combat with "devils" at the time of the Recreance, it seems possible that there were desolations between the end of the Oathpact and the Recreance, at least if we trust these records of the ardents.

The second spoiler also indicates that there was a significant time between the departure of the Heralds and the Recreance.

For reasons that are unclear to me, the Yelig-nar thread that is referenced in your timeline thread seems to assume that the Radiants persisted for some time after the Shattering of the Oathpact.

Edited November 29, 2011 by hoser

[Wisdom]

I don't think there were any more Desolations after breaking of the Oathpact. If you look at this it lists the Last Desolation as the defeat of the Voidbringers (although I'm not sure what Aharietiam refers to). It also lists the Day of Recreance and The Heirocracy, so it has to have happened afterwards. If there were more Desolations, why then would they still list it as the Last Desolation?

[Triasmus]

I agree with Wisdom. The heralds go out and tell everyone that that was the last desolation, everyone rejoices and names it Aharietiam, then the hierocracy happens a few centuries later, and now I'm gonna end this sentence because we don't even care about the hierocracy, let alone the things after it.

This is the quote someone was looking for

"It is our duty and our privilege," the woman said, "to stay vigilant for the Desolation. One kingdom to study the arts of war so that the others might have peace. We die so that you may live. It has ever been our place."

[pyrrhical]

I had a theory, and this was just a theory, that the Desolations -- the true Desolations -- ended when the Oathpact was shattered. Or that the Last Desolation was still raging.

Because when the Knights Radiant left, there is no mention of the Voidbringers any further, correct? Just mention of armies marching upon one another? And a lot of jarbled facts that we only get through "flashbacks"? So how I interpreted it -- and this could be absolutely into left field, so stay with the cray-cray for a bit -- is that when the Oathpact shattered, it was the Last Desolation, and the Heralds knew that the Voidbringers were gone, or no more were coming, so the KR could take care of it. But the KR were for the people, and so they stayed past the end of the Last Desolation. Hence why the wars started to rage between kingdoms and people after that. And hence why the KR threw down their weapons, after that -- much like the Heralds did.

And now, now that the Voidbringers are shown to have never left, maybe the KR never really left, they just migrated off somewhere else, too. That was the theory that I ended the book on. Since, to me, the KR were effectively human, only . . . amped up human? Like the Voidbringers were devastation, only amped up devastation, like the difference between parshmen and Parshendi -- KR and human. Those who can lash, and those who can't. And they migrated off somewhere, or became something else, because the "Last Desolation" was the ending of the Oathpact, and the leaving of the Heralds, but that wasn't the actual end of the Voidbringers, like the end of a battle isn't the end of the soldiers?

[Eri]

To all people saying that KR just quit because they believed there won't be more Desolations:

Supposing that the vision is true (not just Honor's predictions or something) they didn't seem to ‘just quit’. They acted strange, as if they were shocked, confused, disturbed or something like that. The theory that they realised their bonded weapons are now full of Odium fits this very well, but there may be alternate explanations.

[dyring]

To all people saying that KR just quit because they believed there won't be more Desolations:

Supposing that the vision is true (not just Honor's predictions or something) they didn't seem to ‘just quit’. They acted strange, as if they were shocked, confused, disturbed or something like that. The theory that they realised their bonded weapons are now full of Odium fits this very well, but there may be alternate explanations.

Personally I still believe that they were disgusted at being used in "ordinary" wars. Perhaps they had an oath not to take power themselves but follow their rulers, and as they where spread over different countries, perhaps they got fed up with knights radiant being asked to fight knights radiant?

Had it just been the blades and plates being tainted, they could have just dropped those and continued to be knights radiant. A windrunner such as Kaladin or(possibly) szeth is quite formidable even without plate and blade, bet the other orders would be too. So I dont think soemthing happening to the plates and/or blades can explain it.

Edited January 14, 2012 by dyring

[treblkickd]

Personally I still believe that they were disgusted at being used in "ordinary" wars. Perhaps they had an oath not to take power themselves but follow their rulers, and as they where spread over different countries, perhaps they got fed up with knights radiant being asked to fight knights radiant?

Had it just been the blades and plates being tainted, they could have just dropped those and continued to be knights radiant. A windrunner such as Kaladin or(possibly) szeth is quite formidable even without plate and blade, bet the other orders would be too. So I dont think soemthing happening to the plates and/or blades can explain it.

I agree with dyring's view above. In a world with regular Desolations, and an obvious enemy in Odium to focus on, the Knights Radiant served a very clear purpose. But when you take away the Desolations and let a lot of time pass, then it seems intuitive that the Knights Radiant purpose would erode, and they'd be looking at a best-case scenario of becoming something like the Jedi circa the Old Republic.

Oh, one other thought about the Recreance scene - which is actually a thought that Dalinar himself has while viewing that scene - is where are the other orders of Knights Radiant? Why do we only see the Windrunners and Stonewardens, but never the other orders? I could imagine that perhaps the Windrunners and Stonewardens are the orders that were tasked with the frontline fighting while the other orders specialized in other areas, but it's still strange that we never see a peep out of the other KR orders - just those two.

Along this line of thought, it actually makes a lot of sense to me that only a subset of the KR orders would really specialize in combat, while others would have powers that focus them on other areas (healing, communication, etc.). There is certainly one order (Vev) with the attribute "healing", which could easily imply an order that is focused on curing people as opposed to running around on battlefields fighting, and there could be other logistical roles that were the focus of other orders that we don't know much about. Soulcasters, for example, aren't necessarily an obvious choice for front-lines fighters (Jasnah's badassery not withstanding).

[dj26792]

I dont know it seems to me like any half decent soulcaster would be as lethal as Jasnah in close quarters, in the kind of combat they seem to engage in its pretty easy to touch someone and if thats all you need to get a kill you arent worried about, you just became every enemies worst nightmare, turn a guy into smoke jump through the smoke and get the next guy before he knows what hit him...

[Aradel]

I dont know it seems to me like any half decent soulcaster would be as lethal as Jasnah in close quarters, in the kind of combat they seem to engage in its pretty easy to touch someone and if thats all you need to get a kill you arent worried about, you just became every enemies worst nightmare, turn a guy into smoke jump through the smoke and get the next guy before he knows what hit him...

She also drained two of her spheres and cracked another. I don't know about you, but soulcasting during combat seems to cost a lot of stormlight.

[treblkickd]

She also drained two of her spheres and cracked another. I don't know about you, but soulcasting during combat seems to cost a lot of stormlight.

Agreed - I'd also point out that in a situation where you're fighting (potentially) armies of giant rock beasts and who knows what else, mobility is perhaps the most important thing to possess in terms gaining the tactical advantage necessary to stay alive.

We've already seen via Szeth how the Windrunner abilities can be used to maneuver around a fight very effectively, and IF (this is hugely speculative) the Stonewardens' surge-based powers include something to the tune of super speed/strength (possibly seen in a mild form when Dalinar saves Elhokar by moving faster and more gracefully than a man in shardplate should be able to do) then that would also make a lot of sense as an ability that's useful for staying alive in battle.

[Wisdom]

There's an epigraph (although I can't remember where) that says something to the effect: "Just got to Urithiru and the tolls are up, the Knights Radiant are finally showing their true colours" (paraphrased as I can't remember exactly what it says). To me this suggests that the Knights Radiant were becoming corrupt, is this possibly the influence of Odium?

[Dahak]

There's an epigraph (although I can't remember where) that says something to the effect: "Just got to Urithiru and the tolls are up, the Knights Radiant are finally showing their true colours" (paraphrased as I can't remember exactly what it says). To me this suggests that the Knights Radiant were becoming corrupt, is this possibly the influence of Odium?

According to Jashnah "Following the firing of the original Palanaeum, only one page of Terxim’s autobiography remained, and this is the only line of any use to me."

Though I was due for dinner in Veden City that night, I insisted upon visiting Kholinar to speak with Tivbet. The tariffs through Urithiru were growing quite unreasonable. By then, the so-called Radiants had already begun to show their true nature.

[CrazyRioter]

unfortunately without knowing the context behind the event we can't know if this was actual corruption or if they had a legitimate reason to raise the tariffs and the dude writing was just being whiny.

[dj26792]

yeah, I always just assumed he was being whiny, we have a culture where Sadeas is a model man, and Dalinar is crazy for being honourable, the knights being honourable (we assume) would cause a lot of whining, if people didnt have the power to fight it.

[fiveAM]

She also drained two of her spheres and cracked another. I don't know about you, but soulcasting during combat seems to cost a lot of stormlight.

I thought Soulcasters used full on gems, not spheres? I always thought that Soulcasting demands a lot from it's gems and is not rechargeable (why they have to keep harvesting gems from chasm fiends instead of recharging them during a highstorm). I assumed the gem cracking was showing the point where the gem was completely drained and could no longer be used to Soulcast. Maybe that's when they create spheres?

[Ibbeh]

I feel like somewhere in the book after they have a larger gem cracking they then mention taking it to somebody to have it cut down into smaller gems or spheres so it can still be used. Not sure who it was but I'd assume its somewhere in the Shallan chapters.

[Triasmus]

The gems are rechargeable. The gemhearts are so nice to have because bigger gems crack a lot less easily and they're able to do more.

and to the post above me, it did say that somewhere in the book, so you can get past your feelings .

[Ibbeh]

hah thanks, I was worried I was gonna have to go scouring through it to find the quote.

[fiveAM]

ah, i stand corrected.

Haha, random thought, I wonder if there's anyone regulating how many gems get turned into shards? There's only supposed to be a certain amount of money in print at one time, or there's risk of hyperinflation. Supposedly that's why people keeping cash in their home or in a safety deposit box can be harmful to the economy because when they finally use that money, it adds extra cash that was not expected. Heh.. guess i actually remembered something from HS economics...

[dj26792]

their economy is (probably) more primitive than ours, meaning (somewhat ironically) that it is more robust and less susceptible to that sort of problem.