Bavadin and Autonomy

[Elder]

It’s been a while, and I listened to the book so I don’t have access to the written words for reference, but I remember Moonlight’s denunciation of Autonomy’s hypocrisy.  How her brand of individualism ends up creating more conformity.  It leads me to wonder:  how strong is Bavadin’s hold on Autonomy?  If she’s creating effects that contradict the Intent of the Shard, is it possible she’s starting to lose her grip just a bit?  Could she end up being supplanted? 
 

if so, I wonder if Kelsier might be a better fit.

[Trusk'our]

21 hours ago, Elder said:

It’s been a while, and I listened to the book so I don’t have access to the written words for reference, but I remember Moonlight’s denunciation of Autonomy’s hypocrisy.  How her brand of individualism ends up creating more conformity.  It leads me to wonder:  how strong is Bavadin’s hold on Autonomy?  If she’s creating effects that contradict the Intent of the Shard, is it possible she’s starting to lose her grip just a bit?  Could she end up being supplanted? 
 

if so, I wonder if Kelsier might be a better fit.

HA! That would be awesome to see.

Plus, Kelsier seems to fit well with Autonomy's Intent (or maybe it's just the Vessel's opinion).

Quote

Dragonsteel 2022 - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Questioner

We have some idea that Autonomy is fiddling around in Roshar and in Scadrial.

Brandon Sanderson

And other places.

Questioner

Considering her involvement with the Ghostbloods: has she directly interacted with Kelsier/Thaidakar?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Questioner

Whether she has or not, what is her opinion of Kelsier?

Brandon Sanderson

You’re asking, directly Autonomy, not one of her Avatars? Directly, Autonomy likes Kelsier and respects Kelsier. Autonomy is a fan, shall we say.

 

[Elder]

5 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

HA! That would be awesome to see.

Plus, Kelsier seems to fit well with Autonomy's Intent (or maybe it's just the Vessel's opinion).

 

Thank you for those insights.  I suppose the next question:  can Kelsier hold a Shard (or, barring that, an avatar hood) in his current state.  He wasn’t very good at it in SH, he needed a better hold on the PR.  He’s back in the PR now, so that’s something.

Given how Trellium repels other godmetals, and how Kelsier’s first impulse whenever he meets a new god is to punch them in the face, it seems like a good match.

[Trusk'our]

Just now, Elder said:

Thank you for those insights.  I suppose the next question:  can Kelsier hold a Shard (or, barring that, an avatar hood) in his current state.  He wasn’t very good at it in SH, he needed a better hold on the PR.  He’s back in the PR now, so that’s something.

You're welcome  

I don't think that he could hold or use a Shard of Adonalsium very well yet. In fact, I would bet that the reason he can't use his Allomancy currently is because he still counts too much as a Spren-like being. But I don't know for sure yet.

3 minutes ago, Elder said:

Given how Trellium repels other godmetals, and how Kelsier’s first impulse whenever he meets a new god is to punch them in the face, it seems like a good match.

True. He seems to appreciate it when Shards do useful things for their peoples, but also likes it when the masses have power to act on their own, as shown by his desire to comedize Allomancy and Feruchemy.

With that in mind, I think that Autonomy would be an excellent match for Kelsier.

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Elder said:

Thank you for those insights.  I suppose the next question:  can Kelsier hold a Shard (or, barring that, an avatar hood) in his current state.  He wasn’t very good at it in SH, he needed a better hold on the PR.  He’s back in the PR now, so that’s something.

Given how Trellium repels other godmetals, and how Kelsier’s first impulse whenever he meets a new god is to punch them in the face, it seems like a good match.

He can hold a Shard, like in SH, but he still doesn't have a permanent connection to PR, that's not his real body. To Ascend he would most likely need to get rid of the spike, like Vin had to to touch the power of Preservation in the Well, and from Mists, and that would disconnect him from PR. He is still just a CS without a body, so he wouldn't be as powerful as others at being a Vessel for a Shard.

[Elder]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

He can hold a Shard, like in SH, but he still doesn't have a permanent connection to PR, that's not his real body. To Ascend he would most likely need to get rid of the spike, like Vin had to to touch the power of Preservation in the Well, and from Mists, and that would disconnect him from PR. He is still just a CS without a body, so he wouldn't be as powerful as others at being a Vessel for a Shard.

I wonder if Autonomy would want to recruit a cognitive shadow as an avatar.

[TheoreticalMagic]

I'd really like to see this explored in future books for sure....because I think Autonomy is potentially one of the most unique of the Shards and has quirks that might not be true of the others....just because of the very nature of her Intent.

In theory, its possible that in the long-run, NO ONE could hold the Shard of Autonomy without issue....because the mere existence of the wiggle room in how Autonomy is interpreted.....means that sooner or later, Autonomy as a singular Intent is going to HAVE to resolve the question of whose Autonomy takes priority...its own, or the cosmere's. And its entirely possible that there's just no way for Autonomy as it exists now, TO ever reconcile that dichotomy.

Like I just mean.....from the jump, as others have pointed out, there's a LOT of wiggle room for even just Bavadin's own interpretation of her Intent. Because she's a singular entity as much as an embodiment of a divine urge....one can argue that the actions she can take that best embody or fulfill her Intent.....would be ones that put herself and her own needs/wants, the singular entity Autonomy....above all others. But then on the other hand, you could argue that the best way for her to embody her Intent is to maximize the number of people acting Autonomously, while minimizing the limitations/restrictions keeping people from acting with full Autonomy.

Both seem like valid interpretations of her Intent....but eventually, these two interpretations WILL come into direct conflict with each other. Because the 'downside' of free will, is its paired with a spectrum of wants and needs encompassing all the choices people can make, even when those wants/needs put two people - and their free will - in direct opposition to each other. Being equally free to act on wholly opposite and conflicting needs/wants inevitably results in some degree of friction. And there's a give and take to these conflicts between two different individuals trying to exert their free will in pursuit of conflicting goals....because for one person to see their goal fulfilled, the other has to...not. At least in that one specific scenario, with the balancing act being that every single interaction between two people with free will is another potential moment where this time, the give and take might go YOUR way instead. So ideally, it all evens out in the end, except for extremism, the wants that place people at the far end of the spectrum of interactions, where their choices are MEANT to butt up against other peoples' freedoms or autonomy.

But in the short term.....the more people with true autonomy, the more possible restrictions you might face on SPECIFIC wants/needs...because its contingent on the wants/needs of everyone else you interact with, and how much your respective wants/needs are able to accommodate each other's, or not so much.

And herein lies the conflict I'm really interested in seeing with Bavadin: which interpretation of her Intent does she prioritize? The one that puts herself and her personal Autonomy, as an individual, above everything else? Or the one that views actualizing her Intent as being about how much Autonomy she can sow throughout the cosmere?

Because if its the latter....at a certain point, there will be an interaction between Shard and non-Shards, where Bavadin would actually have to give up some of her own freedom to do basically whatever she wants, without restriction....for the sake of mortals' Autonomy. After all, how Autonomous can people ever truly be, if there's always a looming threat or possibility of Bavadin 'taking back' the Autonomy she's only let people have until she no longer wishes them to have it? If at any point Autonomy can and will utilize 'assets' like the Men of Gold and Red to subjugate others...then ultimately, there is a cap or ceiling on how truly Autonomous people were up until that point. Its not true free will if its conditional on a higher power's whims and can be taken away at any time, you know?

So for Bavadin to maximize Autonomy as a universal Intent throughout the cosmere, beyond just her own Autonomy.....eventually she has to limit herself from impeding on mortals' free will and autonomy....or else they'll never truly be autonomous and she's undermined her own Intent. But Bavadin does not seem to be the kind of deity who's down for self-sacrifice, giving up any advantage that she has herself....so I have trouble picturing her ever being willing to self-impose a restriction or limitation on how much or how fully she 'allows' people true individual autonomy.

Because from a certain perspective (ie that of a god-tier entity who does not seem to like being challenged or barred from obtaining whatever she wants or enacting her will however she wants) - even just the 'sacrifice' of acknowledging that she'll respect peoples' personal Autonomy and not override it with her own will...that's a narrowing of her options, the ways she can utilize her power as she wishes. It cuts into her own personal Autonomy, how free she is to act without consequences or regard for others.....

As ultimately, the big irony of true autonomy is that in order to respect the autonomy of others, you have to accept that even if you do have the ability and resources to do things you want but at the expense of others, there are instances and scenarios in which you SHOULDN'T. Part of being a member of a society, an individual that exists alongside others as part of a larger whole, is acknowledging that give and take I was talking about....the fact that true equality means that not everybody gets to go first or get exactly what they want in each INDIVIDUAL circumstance. Allowances have to be made for other people to occasionally get to go ahead of you in line, even if you're used to always being first in line and don't WANT the delay that comes with being ten people deep into the line. Because otherwise....what you have isn't a true equally autonomous society or 'whole'...as ALWAYS going first in line, in every circumstance, with no give and take to the question of who gets to go first today....that's actively an impediment or limitation on the autonomy of others. Sure, they have the same possible options to act as you do....except they can only exercise theirs AFTER you enact yours. That is not two people with an equal ability to act freely on their respective wants or needs. That is one person being prioritized over the other.

Thus....to ever truly spread her Intent throughout the cosmere or act in fulfillment of it...Bavadin at a certain point HAS to 'give up' the option of imposing her will over others. However, if Bavadin the Vessel views her own Intent as being about maximizing her own personal Autonomy as much as possible.....this will ALWAYS appear to her as sacrificing some of her Autonomy for the sake of others....which in her mind then might go against her Intent. 

And it creates a circular logic trap where the more Bavadin becomes defined by her Intent, the way others like Ati and Leras eventually did....the less willing she might become to limit herself in ANY way, for the sake of others' Autonomy, as this would require her to act opposite her own Intent. But refusing to limit her options to overrule mortals' autonomy whenever she wants, for any reason...is inherently then a limitation on how fully her Intent can be embodied or acted upon throughout the cosmere as a whole, beyond just herself. As such, Bavadin refusing to curtail her own Autonomy and thus forever standing in the way of anyone else's true and full Autonomy....would ALSO be seen as her actively acting against her own Intent!

At that point....there's literally NO MOVE she can make....that wouldn't require her to actively act in opposition to her own Intent...which puts her in a kind of checkmate, where she's boxed herself in from moving any further in one direction or the other - in support of her own fullest Autonomy, or in support of the cosmere's fullest Autonomy.

And that kind of checkmate, that reduction of possible moves that won't pit her against herself, where she literally can't make a move that won't to some degree be self-defeating....

That's the ultimate trap of an individual's personal autonomy...AUTONOMY'S personal autonomy....because no external force can ever strip us of our ability to act autonomously....more than our own internal indecision or conflicts about acting at all.

Basically:

Depending on how Bavadin interprets her own Intent, there's a very strong possibility she's headed down an inherently self-defeating path whether she sees the trap lying ahead of her or not. The more she tries to have her cake and eat it too, the bigger the fall she might be setting up for herself when those two opposing directions finally do come into direct conflict with each other and require her to choose which she prioritizes more: her Autonomy, or others'.

Because she literally might not be able to choose at that point. Not when any choice she makes will come at her own expense.

tl;dr version:

Bavadin's greatest threat to herself and her Intent....might be Bavadin herself. There's a possible future in the cosmere's timeline where under the right circumstances, Autonomy could literally be boxed into Shattering HERSELF....into two or more Splinters only 'freed up' to act by the act of Autonomy's internally conflicting 'sides' being separated into completely separate Intents, distinct from each other.

Edited February 11, 2023 by TheoreticalMagic

[Elder]

6 hours ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

I'd really like to see this explored in future books for sure....because I think Autonomy is potentially one of the most unique of the Shards and has quirks that might not be true of the others....just because of the very nature of her Intent.

In theory, its possible that in the long-run, NO ONE could hold the Shard of Autonomy without issue....because the mere existence of the wiggle room in how Autonomy is interpreted.....means that sooner or later, Autonomy as a singular Intent is going to HAVE to resolve the question of whose Autonomy takes priority...its own, or the cosmere's. And its entirely possible that there's just no way for Autonomy as it exists now, TO ever reconcile that dichotomy.

Like I just mean.....from the jump, as others have pointed out, there's a LOT of wiggle room for even just Bavadin's own interpretation of her Intent. Because she's a singular entity as much as an embodiment of a divine urge....one can argue that the actions she can take that best embody or fulfill her Intent.....would be ones that put herself and her own needs/wants, the singular entity Autonomy....above all others. But then on the other hand, you could argue that the best way for her to embody her Intent is to maximize the number of people acting Autonomously, while minimizing the limitations/restrictions keeping people from acting with full Autonomy.

Both seem like valid interpretations of her Intent....but eventually, these two interpretations WILL come into direct conflict with each other. Because the 'downside' of free will, is its paired with a spectrum of wants and needs encompassing all the choices people can make, even when those wants/needs put two people - and their free will - in direct opposition to each other. Being equally free to act on wholly opposite and conflicting needs/wants inevitably results in some degree of friction. And there's a give and take to these conflicts between two different individuals trying to exert their free will in pursuit of conflicting goals....because for one person to see their goal fulfilled, the other has to...not. At least in that one specific scenario, with the balancing act being that every single interaction between two people with free will is another potential moment where this time, the give and take might go YOUR way instead. So ideally, it all evens out in the end, except for extremism, the wants that place people at the far end of the spectrum of interactions, where their choices are MEANT to butt up against other peoples' freedoms or autonomy.

But in the short term.....the more people with true autonomy, the more possible restrictions you might face on SPECIFIC wants/needs...because its contingent on the wants/needs of everyone else you interact with, and how much your respective wants/needs are able to accommodate each other's, or not so much.

And herein lies the conflict I'm really interested in seeing with Bavadin: which interpretation of her Intent does she prioritize? The one that puts herself and her personal Autonomy, as an individual, above everything else? Or the one that views actualizing her Intent as being about how much Autonomy she can sow throughout the cosmere?

Because if its the latter....at a certain point, there will be an interaction between Shard and non-Shards, where Bavadin would actually have to give up some of her own freedom to do basically whatever she wants, without restriction....for the sake of mortals' Autonomy. After all, how Autonomous can people ever truly be, if there's always a looming threat or possibility of Bavadin 'taking back' the Autonomy she's only let people have until she no longer wishes them to have it? If at any point Autonomy can and will utilize 'assets' like the Men of Gold and Red to subjugate others...then ultimately, there is a cap or ceiling on how truly Autonomous people were up until that point. Its not true free will if its conditional on a higher power's whims and can be taken away at any time, you know?

So for Bavadin to maximize Autonomy as a universal Intent throughout the cosmere, beyond just her own Autonomy.....eventually she has to limit herself from impeding on mortals' free will and autonomy....or else they'll never truly be autonomous and she's undermined her own Intent. But Bavadin does not seem to be the kind of deity who's down for self-sacrifice, giving up any advantage that she has herself....so I have trouble picturing her ever being willing to self-impose a restriction or limitation on how much or how fully she 'allows' people true individual autonomy.

Because from a certain perspective (ie that of a god-tier entity who does not seem to like being challenged or barred from obtaining whatever she wants or enacting her will however she wants) - even just the 'sacrifice' of acknowledging that she'll respect peoples' personal Autonomy and not override it with her own will...that's a narrowing of her options, the ways she can utilize her power as she wishes. It cuts into her own personal Autonomy, how free she is to act without consequences or regard for others.....

As ultimately, the big irony of true autonomy is that in order to respect the autonomy of others, you have to accept that even if you do have the ability and resources to do things you want but at the expense of others, there are instances and scenarios in which you SHOULDN'T. Part of being a member of a society, an individual that exists alongside others as part of a larger whole, is acknowledging that give and take I was talking about....the fact that true equality means that not everybody gets to go first or get exactly what they want in each INDIVIDUAL circumstance. Allowances have to be made for other people to occasionally get to go ahead of you in line, even if you're used to always being first in line and don't WANT the delay that comes with being ten people deep into the line. Because otherwise....what you have isn't a true equally autonomous society or 'whole'...as ALWAYS going first in line, in every circumstance, with no give and take to the question of who gets to go first today....that's actively an impediment or limitation on the autonomy of others. Sure, they have the same possible options to act as you do....except they can only exercise theirs AFTER you enact yours. That is not two people with an equal ability to act freely on their respective wants or needs. That is one person being prioritized over the other.

Thus....to ever truly spread her Intent throughout the cosmere or act in fulfillment of it...Bavadin at a certain point HAS to 'give up' the option of imposing her will over others. However, if Bavadin the Vessel views her own Intent as being about maximizing her own personal Autonomy as much as possible.....this will ALWAYS appear to her as sacrificing some of her Autonomy for the sake of others....which in her mind then might go against her Intent. 

And it creates a circular logic trap where the more Bavadin becomes defined by her Intent, the way others like Ati and Leras eventually did....the less willing she might become to limit herself in ANY way, for the sake of others' Autonomy, as this would require her to act opposite her own Intent. But refusing to limit her options to overrule mortals' autonomy whenever she wants, for any reason...is inherently then a limitation on how fully her Intent can be embodied or acted upon throughout the cosmere as a whole, beyond just herself. As such, Bavadin refusing to curtail her own Autonomy and thus forever standing in the way of anyone else's true and full Autonomy....would ALSO be seen as her actively acting against her own Intent!

At that point....there's literally NO MOVE she can make....that wouldn't require her to actively act in opposition to her own Intent...which puts her in a kind of checkmate, where she's boxed herself in from moving any further in one direction or the other - in support of her own fullest Autonomy, or in support of the cosmere's fullest Autonomy.

And that kind of checkmate, that reduction of possible moves that won't pit her against herself, where she literally can't make a move that won't to some degree be self-defeating....

That's the ultimate trap of an individual's personal autonomy...AUTONOMY'S personal autonomy....because no external force can ever strip us of our ability to act autonomously....more than our own internal indecision or conflicts about acting at all.

Basically:

Depending on how Bavadin interprets her own Intent, there's a very strong possibility she's headed down an inherently self-defeating path whether she sees the trap lying ahead of her or not. The more she tries to have her cake and eat it too, the bigger the fall she might be setting up for herself when those two opposing directions finally do come into direct conflict with each other and require her to choose which she prioritizes more: her Autonomy, or others'.

Because she literally might not be able to choose at that point. Not when any choice she makes will come at her own expense.

tl;dr version:

Bavadin's greatest threat to herself and her Intent....might be Bavadin herself. There's a possible future in the cosmere's timeline where under the right circumstances, Autonomy could literally be boxed into Shattering HERSELF....into two or more Splinters only 'freed up' to act by the act of Autonomy's internally conflicting 'sides' being separated into completely separate Intents, distinct from each other.

An interesting thought.  Might explain why Odium didn’t bother Autonomy.  Figured she’d take care of herself.

Worth pointing out, none of these Shards were meant to operate independently.  Autonomy’s intent is to do that which she was never meant to.  Makes sense that it wouldn’t work.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Elder said:

An interesting thought.  Might explain why Odium didn’t bother Autonomy.  Figured she’d take care of herself.

Not true, he wanted to go after her next.

Spoiler

Double

Rayse (Odium) was very methodical with the order in which he went after other Shards. Hypothetically if he'd visited the Rosharan system all those years ago but managed to avoid being trapped and was able to continue his mission right away, which of the known Shards would've been next up on Rayse's hit list?

Brandon Sanderson

He expected Ruin to implode. So he might have gone for Autonomy, double crossing them.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

Double crossing them means that Odium worked with her before. 

7 hours ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

Basically:

Depending on how Bavadin interprets her own Intent, there's a very strong possibility she's headed down an inherently self-defeating path whether she sees the trap lying ahead of her or not. The more she tries to have her cake and eat it too, the bigger the fall she might be setting up for herself when those two opposing directions finally do come into direct conflict with each other and require her to choose which she prioritizes more: her Autonomy, or others'.

Because she literally might not be able to choose at that point. Not when any choice she makes will come at her own expense.

tl;dr version:

Bavadin's greatest threat to herself and her Intent....might be Bavadin herself. There's a possible future in the cosmere's timeline where under the right circumstances, Autonomy could literally be boxed into Shattering HERSELF....into two or more Splinters only 'freed up' to act by the act of Autonomy's internally conflicting 'sides' being separated into completely separate Intents, distinct from each other.

Interesting but Shard's intent is to focus outwards not inwards. It's not about her Autonomy, it's about Autonomy of people. While she tells them what this Autonomy should look like, she still respects that Scadrial chooses its own Autonomy, and she is a fan of Kelsier despite the fact that Kel is fighting against her. Moreover Shards can change slightly interpretation of its own intent, so this might help her, like SA slight spoiler:

Spoiler

Odium with Passion, Rayse sees Odium not just as hatred but all emotions.

WoB:

Spoiler

Chaos

It's a little odd that Preservation would inherently give up its power to fuel Allomancy, because you'd think he would preserve himself, you know? Does that make sense?

Brandon Sanderson

Preservation, as a Shard, is about preserving life, people, and the like. Not about self. No more than Ruin is about destroying self, or Cultivation is about growing herself.

/r/fantasy AMA 2011 (Aug. 31, 2011)

 

[Elder]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

Not true, he wanted to go after her next.

  Hide contents

Double

Rayse (Odium) was very methodical with the order in which he went after other Shards. Hypothetically if he'd visited the Rosharan system all those years ago but managed to avoid being trapped and was able to continue his mission right away, which of the known Shards would've been next up on Rayse's hit list?

Brandon Sanderson

He expected Ruin to implode. So he might have gone for Autonomy, double crossing them.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

Double crossing them means that Odium worked with her before. 

Interesting but Shard's intent is to focus outwards not inwards. It's not about her Autonomy, it's about Autonomy of people. While she tells them what this Autonomy should look like, she still respects that Scadrial chooses its own Autonomy, and she is a fan of Kelsier despite the fact that Kel is fighting against her. Moreover Shards can change slightly interpretation of its own intent, so this might help her, like SA slight spoiler:

  Hide contents

Odium with Passion, Rayse sees Odium not just as hatred but all emotions.

WoB:

  Hide contents

Chaos

It's a little odd that Preservation would inherently give up its power to fuel Allomancy, because you'd think he would preserve himself, you know? Does that make sense?

Brandon Sanderson

Preservation, as a Shard, is about preserving life, people, and the like. Not about self. No more than Ruin is about destroying self, or Cultivation is about growing herself.

/r/fantasy AMA 2011 (Aug. 31, 2011)

 

Interesting.  Probably why Odium’s been hitting dual shard systems.  Ambition was an outlier in this theory, but Mercy was involved in that one too, so maybe Odium was nipping that in the bud.

 

[cometaryorbit]

Autonomy's tendency to work through avatars might be a way to deal with internal contradictions, or explore different meanings of Autonomy.

I don't think Autonomy - at least as interpreted by Bavadin - is really either "maximizing her own free will" or "ensuring everyone has equal free will", though. It's more combative self-reliance.

Moonlight says that under Autonomy people can generally live mostly unbothered, unless they try to advance, in which case it's super survival of the fittest. The Wax and Wayne copies talk about competing to be the best example of that role, a similar survival of the fittest concept. The Cycle also talks about proving himself by capturing Marasi.

I think what Autonomy (as interpreted by Bavadin) wants to encourage in the world/universe is combative self-reliance: seeking or fighting for one's own independence or free will, but an free will that includes the possibility of imposing on others.

That's inherently not a "freedom for everyone" concept*, it's a competition that some will lose. Autonomy probably thinks that freedom that isn't won isn't real freedom (if it's given to you by a higher power it's not *your* freedom, kind of concept). And perhaps that self-reliance needs harsh conditions/dangerous competition to develop.

This isn't a "freedom as universal human right" concept. This is a "freedom is something you seize" concept.

*Except maybe in a cold "everyone has the freedom to try, it's just that most will fail" sense.

Sixth of the Dusk

Spoiler

The whole nature of Patji as a deadly test / training ground that teaches paranoia, self reliance, etc fits with this very well.

It's not about everyone's free will, because what about all the people who die?

And most people on the planet don't even try, which fits what Moonlight says about people who don't seek advancement being safer.

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Elder]

Another disruption to the bond between Autonomy and Bavadin:  Autonomy is gunning for Harmony, but Harmony’s stated goal is to foster free will, or in other words, autonomy.  She’s messing with other Shards based on the vessel’s fear and interpretation of a very loose agreement (one Honor doesn’t care about and that she doesn’t think stops her from undermining Shards), not necessarily based on Autonomy’s intent.  In other words, Autonomy is undermining someone who restrains his power to support Autonomy.

There’s certainly wiggle room, interpretation of intent.  But that’s at least two things about Bavadin’s interpretation here that could be considered hypocritical. I imagine many of the vessels carry their Shards poorly (Rayse and Ati both seem to have had shortcomings in this area).  Is it all that surprising that Bavadin could be fumbling it?  

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

On 2/11/2023 at 6:21 AM, TheoreticalMagic said:

I'd really like to see this explored in future books for sure....because I think Autonomy is potentially one of the most unique of the Shards and has quirks that might not be true of the others....just because of the very nature of her Intent.

In theory, its possible that in the long-run, NO ONE could hold the Shard of Autonomy without issue....because the mere existence of the wiggle room in how Autonomy is interpreted.....means that sooner or later, Autonomy as a singular Intent is going to HAVE to resolve the question of whose Autonomy takes priority...its own, or the cosmere's. And its entirely possible that there's just no way for Autonomy as it exists now, TO ever reconcile that dichotomy.

Like I just mean.....from the jump, as others have pointed out, there's a LOT of wiggle room for even just Bavadin's own interpretation of her Intent. Because she's a singular entity as much as an embodiment of a divine urge....one can argue that the actions she can take that best embody or fulfill her Intent.....would be ones that put herself and her own needs/wants, the singular entity Autonomy....above all others. But then on the other hand, you could argue that the best way for her to embody her Intent is to maximize the number of people acting Autonomously, while minimizing the limitations/restrictions keeping people from acting with full Autonomy.

Both seem like valid interpretations of her Intent....but eventually, these two interpretations WILL come into direct conflict with each other. Because the 'downside' of free will, is its paired with a spectrum of wants and needs encompassing all the choices people can make, even when those wants/needs put two people - and their free will - in direct opposition to each other. Being equally free to act on wholly opposite and conflicting needs/wants inevitably results in some degree of friction. And there's a give and take to these conflicts between two different individuals trying to exert their free will in pursuit of conflicting goals....because for one person to see their goal fulfilled, the other has to...not. At least in that one specific scenario, with the balancing act being that every single interaction between two people with free will is another potential moment where this time, the give and take might go YOUR way instead. So ideally, it all evens out in the end, except for extremism, the wants that place people at the far end of the spectrum of interactions, where their choices are MEANT to butt up against other peoples' freedoms or autonomy.

But in the short term.....the more people with true autonomy, the more possible restrictions you might face on SPECIFIC wants/needs...because its contingent on the wants/needs of everyone else you interact with, and how much your respective wants/needs are able to accommodate each other's, or not so much.

And herein lies the conflict I'm really interested in seeing with Bavadin: which interpretation of her Intent does she prioritize? The one that puts herself and her personal Autonomy, as an individual, above everything else? Or the one that views actualizing her Intent as being about how much Autonomy she can sow throughout the cosmere?

Because if its the latter....at a certain point, there will be an interaction between Shard and non-Shards, where Bavadin would actually have to give up some of her own freedom to do basically whatever she wants, without restriction....for the sake of mortals' Autonomy. After all, how Autonomous can people ever truly be, if there's always a looming threat or possibility of Bavadin 'taking back' the Autonomy she's only let people have until she no longer wishes them to have it? If at any point Autonomy can and will utilize 'assets' like the Men of Gold and Red to subjugate others...then ultimately, there is a cap or ceiling on how truly Autonomous people were up until that point. Its not true free will if its conditional on a higher power's whims and can be taken away at any time, you know?

So for Bavadin to maximize Autonomy as a universal Intent throughout the cosmere, beyond just her own Autonomy.....eventually she has to limit herself from impeding on mortals' free will and autonomy....or else they'll never truly be autonomous and she's undermined her own Intent. But Bavadin does not seem to be the kind of deity who's down for self-sacrifice, giving up any advantage that she has herself....so I have trouble picturing her ever being willing to self-impose a restriction or limitation on how much or how fully she 'allows' people true individual autonomy.

Because from a certain perspective (ie that of a god-tier entity who does not seem to like being challenged or barred from obtaining whatever she wants or enacting her will however she wants) - even just the 'sacrifice' of acknowledging that she'll respect peoples' personal Autonomy and not override it with her own will...that's a narrowing of her options, the ways she can utilize her power as she wishes. It cuts into her own personal Autonomy, how free she is to act without consequences or regard for others.....

As ultimately, the big irony of true autonomy is that in order to respect the autonomy of others, you have to accept that even if you do have the ability and resources to do things you want but at the expense of others, there are instances and scenarios in which you SHOULDN'T. Part of being a member of a society, an individual that exists alongside others as part of a larger whole, is acknowledging that give and take I was talking about....the fact that true equality means that not everybody gets to go first or get exactly what they want in each INDIVIDUAL circumstance. Allowances have to be made for other people to occasionally get to go ahead of you in line, even if you're used to always being first in line and don't WANT the delay that comes with being ten people deep into the line. Because otherwise....what you have isn't a true equally autonomous society or 'whole'...as ALWAYS going first in line, in every circumstance, with no give and take to the question of who gets to go first today....that's actively an impediment or limitation on the autonomy of others. Sure, they have the same possible options to act as you do....except they can only exercise theirs AFTER you enact yours. That is not two people with an equal ability to act freely on their respective wants or needs. That is one person being prioritized over the other.

Thus....to ever truly spread her Intent throughout the cosmere or act in fulfillment of it...Bavadin at a certain point HAS to 'give up' the option of imposing her will over others. However, if Bavadin the Vessel views her own Intent as being about maximizing her own personal Autonomy as much as possible.....this will ALWAYS appear to her as sacrificing some of her Autonomy for the sake of others....which in her mind then might go against her Intent. 

And it creates a circular logic trap where the more Bavadin becomes defined by her Intent, the way others like Ati and Leras eventually did....the less willing she might become to limit herself in ANY way, for the sake of others' Autonomy, as this would require her to act opposite her own Intent. But refusing to limit her options to overrule mortals' autonomy whenever she wants, for any reason...is inherently then a limitation on how fully her Intent can be embodied or acted upon throughout the cosmere as a whole, beyond just herself. As such, Bavadin refusing to curtail her own Autonomy and thus forever standing in the way of anyone else's true and full Autonomy....would ALSO be seen as her actively acting against her own Intent!

At that point....there's literally NO MOVE she can make....that wouldn't require her to actively act in opposition to her own Intent...which puts her in a kind of checkmate, where she's boxed herself in from moving any further in one direction or the other - in support of her own fullest Autonomy, or in support of the cosmere's fullest Autonomy.

And that kind of checkmate, that reduction of possible moves that won't pit her against herself, where she literally can't make a move that won't to some degree be self-defeating....

That's the ultimate trap of an individual's personal autonomy...AUTONOMY'S personal autonomy....because no external force can ever strip us of our ability to act autonomously....more than our own internal indecision or conflicts about acting at all.

Basically:

Depending on how Bavadin interprets her own Intent, there's a very strong possibility she's headed down an inherently self-defeating path whether she sees the trap lying ahead of her or not. The more she tries to have her cake and eat it too, the bigger the fall she might be setting up for herself when those two opposing directions finally do come into direct conflict with each other and require her to choose which she prioritizes more: her Autonomy, or others'.

Because she literally might not be able to choose at that point. Not when any choice she makes will come at her own expense.

tl;dr version:

Bavadin's greatest threat to herself and her Intent....might be Bavadin herself. There's a possible future in the cosmere's timeline where under the right circumstances, Autonomy could literally be boxed into Shattering HERSELF....into two or more Splinters only 'freed up' to act by the act of Autonomy's internally conflicting 'sides' being separated into completely separate Intents, distinct from each other.

Very good analysis, it might not be wholly accurate in terms of how a Shard's Intent affects itself, but otherwise spot on

[Elder]

On 2/10/2023 at 3:55 PM, alder24 said:

He can hold a Shard, like in SH, but he still doesn't have a permanent connection to PR, that's not his real body. To Ascend he would most likely need to get rid of the spike, like Vin had to to touch the power of Preservation in the Well, and from Mists, and that would disconnect him from PR. He is still just a CS without a body, so he wouldn't be as powerful as others at being a Vessel for a Shard.

How much of Kelsier’s difficulty with Preservation was his lack of a body, and how much of it was his incompatibility with Preservation’s intent?  I’m confident both were factors, but I feel like the incompatibility was a bigger issue. 
 

The same might be said of the spike.  That said, Autonomy seems to be cool with Hemalurgy.  If Kelsier were to pull a Pa’alm and use a Trellium Spike, that could probably fix that issue nicely.

My question now is: would Kelsier accept avatarhood from Autonomy, or could he possibly take it?  Kill an avatar, take their power… Sounds like a very Kelsier thing to do.

[alder24]

15 minutes ago, Elder said:

How much of Kelsier’s difficulty with Preservation was his lack of a body, and how much of it was his incompatibility with Preservation’s intent?  I’m confident both were factors, but I feel like the incompatibility was a bigger issue. 

Incompatibility made him unable to use the Shard, as it was opposing him, lack of body made him unable to influence PR to full extent. Ruin said he won't be as strong as somebody with a body. He wasn;t connected to PR.

17 minutes ago, Elder said:

The same might be said of the spike.  That said, Autonomy seems to be cool with Hemalurgy.  If Kelsier were to pull a Pa’alm and use a Trellium Spike, that could probably fix that issue nicely.

Cool? Hard to say. Normally it won't matter, during Ascention it will matter, even to Autonomy. Trellium would mess things up with Preservation too. Investiture resist investiture.

18 minutes ago, Elder said:

My question now is: would Kelsier accept avatarhood from Autonomy, or could he possibly take it?  Kill an avatar, take their power… Sounds like a very Kelsier thing to do.

No, because Kel knows Autonomy is a threat to Scadrial and has several allies that suffered from Autonomy's hands and like to get retribution.

[Elder]

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Incompatibility made him unable to use the Shard, as it was opposing him, lack of body made him unable to influence PR to full extent. Ruin said he won't be as strong as somebody with a body. He wasn;t connected to PR.

Cool? Hard to say. Normally it won't matter, during Ascention it will matter, even to Autonomy. Trellium would mess things up with Preservation too. Investiture resist investiture.

No, because Kel knows Autonomy is a threat to Scadrial and has several allies that suffered from Autonomy's hands and like to get retribution.

I mean Telsin was spiked, didn’t stop her.

Yeah, he’d probably rather kill an avatar and take the power.  And since he’s fairly compatible with Autonomy’s intent, he could probably do it.  He doesn’t really have the connection, but that’s hardly stopped him before.

[alder24]

14 minutes ago, Elder said:

I mean Telsin was spiked, didn’t stop her.

Oh, that's about becoming an Avatar, not Shard - then yes, Trellium spike certainly helped her.

15 minutes ago, Elder said:

Yeah, he’d probably rather kill an avatar and take the power.

I don't think you can kill an avatar and take his power replacing him. Avatar is not a Shard - avatar is chosen by a Shard. Avatar lives because Shard is supplying him with Investiture.  There is nothing to take, nothing was left behind Telsin, no power to take. That's a soul stuff and connction thing. 

[Elder]

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Oh, that's about becoming an Avatar, not Shard - then yes, Trellium spike certainly helped her.

I don't think you can kill an avatar and take his power replacing him. Avatar is not a Shard - avatar is chosen by a Shard. Avatar lives because Shard is supplying him with Investiture.  There is nothing to take, nothing was left behind Telsin, no power to take. That's a soul stuff and connction thing. 

 

Telsin wasn’t fully invested yet.  I wonder if the process isn’t more permanent once completed.    Also, seeing as how Avatars can happen inadvertently, I wouldn’t be surprised if they could happen against the Vessel’s will.  Therefore, I think it within the realm of possibility for Kelsier to steal godhood, again.

Spoiler

Oversleep

Okay now I have one about Shard avatars, like Autonomy's. Is it possible for one to form without the Shard's Vessel directly making it, so independent...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it is. They would be aware of it, however. They couldn't not be aware of it, but it could arise without their direct and conscious decision to do so.

Oversleep

And the one on First of the Sun, is it by Autonomy's direct...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is directly created.

Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

 

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Elder said:

Telsin wasn’t fully invested yet.  I wonder if the process isn’t more permanent once completed.    Also, seeing as how Avatars can happen inadvertently, I wouldn’t be surprised if they could happen against the Vessel’s will.  Therefore, I think it within the realm of possibility for Kelsier to steal godhood, again.

I doubt Telsin would become permanent, as Harmony said she needed constant supply of Autonomy Investiture. But who knows (Brandon, we don't')?

Spoiler

Alex M

What's the difference between avatar and Splinter?

Brandon Sanderson

These are all very weird terms that I'm just using.

*mistakenly answering for Sliver* A Sliver is a person who has held the power of a Shard, and then let go of it. A briefly held time, holding the infinite power of a Shard, but no longer does. So what does that do? That changes your soul, and leaves markers on it. It's a real physiological thing.

An avatar is... a Shard manifesting a semi-autonomous piece of themselves that is still connected to who they are. An avatar, for instance, of Autonomy - depending on how Autonomy creates that avatar - might know, might not know, but they are still an aspect, they are still part of Autonomy. And when you get down to it a part of them knows that, and it's almost a god roleplaying, but in a way that only a Shard, or a lowercase-g god in the Cosmere, can do.

Brandon Sanderson

*realizes that he answered for Sliver earlier, and clarifies*

A Splinter is a piece of a Shard that is fully autonomous, where an avatar is not. So something that is Splintered does not consider itself - and would not be considered by the definitions  - an actual piece of it [the Shard], and has free will. So once it has free will, and/or could develop free will (because some of the Splinters haven't gotten there yet), but is fully cut off from the direct control and self-identity of the Shard, then it is called a Splinter.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

WoB about Telsin, but also supporting you a bit:

Spoiler

Questioner

So Bavadin's avatars, right; Autonomy's avatars.

Brandon Sanderson

One of Bavadin's avatars. 

Questioner

Of those avatars, are some or all of them actual Splinters of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

The terminology gets kind of sticky here. In Cosmere terms, some would say that counts as Splinters, some would say not. The avatars aren't necessarily aware but Bavadin always is. A lot of people in Cosmere would call that a Splinter. 

Questioner

My follow up to that would be, is it possible for a person to Ascend and become a Vessel of one of those Splinters?  

Brandon Sanderson

That is plausible. Yes. It could happen. It would be tough because they will have personalities of their own and so something would need to happen... but yeah.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

[cometaryorbit]

I don't think an Avatar can be stolen as such (because it isn't "cut off from the direct control and self-identity of the Shard", Autonomy could prevent that) but killing an existing Avatar could possibly be taken by Autonomy as proving your worthiness to replace that Avatar.

[Elder]

2 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think an Avatar can be stolen as such (because it isn't "cut off from the direct control and self-identity of the Shard", Autonomy could prevent that) but killing an existing Avatar could possibly be taken by Autonomy as proving your worthiness to replace that Avatar.

I agree.  I suppose it might also depend on how much the Intent and the Host agree on the matter.  I could see Kelsier stealing Avatarhood against Bavadin’s wishes but in accordance with Autonomy’s Intent.

Based on Patji’s letter to Hoid, the Avatar’s aren’t of one mind.  I think Kelsier could impress Patji by surviving.  He could probably impress the Obradai avatar just by talking about how much Hoid sucks….. ok I kid.