Lost Metal Chapter 9 Reactions

[Frustration]

6 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

they can store the weight of an inanimate object? I haven't seen any other instance of souther scadrian technology giving internal powers to inanimate objects. and I haven't seen any explanation like that in the books. do we have some sources on it?

 

3 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

Yes I also have not seen anything regarding storing weight of an inanimate object. From what we have see it is just used to essentially nullify the weight of the crew. Interestingly this could be used in reverse if you needed to descend quickly (like to avoid cannon balls being shot at you). 

It's in BoM when suit is trying to leave with the ship. He takes a medallion, and has someone prime the ship with iron feruchemy, so both are needed.

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

A combustion engine would run out of ettmetal eventually.

If you're implying the combustion was purely chemical in nature and not magical, i.e., water + ettmetal = boom, then why did Allik need tocharge a primer cube from Wax and then snap into place to keep Wilg flying? Into a space that clearly required it, not as some kind of backup power source:

Quote

He spun and pressed [the Allomantic grenade] against Wax's arm until - as he was still burning steel to keep them afloat - it started buzzing.

The little man turned and snapped the cube into place under the shelf at the front of the ship. The machine shook, and then something started thumping underneath them. A fan? Yes, a very large one, blowing downward, powered by an unseen motor.

And in fact, from what Allik says, it does require A-steel specifically:

Quote

"Fuel. What, you think Wilg flies on clouds and dreams?"

"I thought it flew on Allomancy."

"Allomancy Pushes the impellers," Allik said. "But ettmetal is what supports it. ... Here, see," Allik said, kneeling down and opening the compartment where he'd put the little cube that Waxillium called an Allomantic grenade. It was attached to a metal shell, which glowed softly at the center. Allik pointed, and to the side she could see a greater light blazing with a pure whiteness. A stone, burning like limelight.

Or like Allomancy itself, Marasi realized. "What kind of metal is it, though?"

"Ettmetal," Allik said, shrugging. "There's a little bit in the primer cube too, to make it work. A lot more to make a ship like Wilg go, and a lot, lot more to get Brunstell into the air. ... what we have in Wilg, it'll be enough to fly us a day or two. After that, we'd need an Allomancer Pushing full-time. ..."

So, charging the primer cube with an Allomantic Steelpush appears to be necessary to get these ships into the air, as the alternative is "an Allomancer Pushing full-time", unless that somehow includes charging it with another Allomantic Pushing power like from burning pewter, brass, or bronze.

Most likely the simplest explanation is, the "impellers" are giant metal fans, and they're kept in constant motion via constant Steelpushing generated by an extremely large, ettmetal-fueled (consuming) engine that replicates it; and that the "primer cube" has only just enough charge to start it all up.

Maybe the design is to have the cubes "charged and ready at the flick of the switch" from some Coinshot back home, but the Set having taken them all and futzed with them made Allik need to get more Steelpushing put into it (and fortunately, Wax is a Coinshot).

Which may also imply, amusingly, that having a Lurcher like Ranette surreptitiously charge a primer cube and leaving it somewhere a Malwish ship would expect it, might result in one of their airships collapsing in on itself instead of lifting off when they snapped in into place. Or freezing everbody on board in a slo-time bubble if Marasi charged it. Ha ha!

Edited October 11, 2022 by robardin

[Dracnor]

Wild guess : Harmony will offer Wax an old A-iron hemallurgic spike. That's all for me.

[StormingTexan]

19 hours ago, Frustration said:

It's in BoM when suit is trying to leave with the ship. He takes a medallion, and has someone prime the ship with iron feruchemy, so both are needed.

Ah I see now good catch. Wonder if they only have to do this with the big ships I do not think they did this with the Wilg maybe because it is much lighter. 

@robardin Totally forgot about that explanation in the book thanks! Clearly I need to re-read BoM before LM comes out!

19 hours ago, robardin said:

Maybe the design is to have the cubes "charged and ready at the flick of the switch" from some Coinshot back home, but the Set having taken them all and futzed with them made Allik need to get more Steelpushing put into it (and fortunately, Wax is a Coinshot).

Although we do not know exactly how long the charge last it seems like it does deteriorate without "toping off" so I would assume you would have to have a Coinshot on the crew for any lengthy travel. 

[+robardin]

I also wonder what it is that "access to [the Basin's] Metalborn" has meant in trade to the Malwish. It obviously has had SOME value, or they wouldn't have continued to trade medallions and/or primer cubes for it, while withholding the means of production, unless that was a stall job to scope out the weaknesses of the Basin's defenses.

The airship's captain in Ch. 9 making the pointed observation that Wax, a "natural born Coinshot", could not fly up to his ship unaided, should imply they also don't particularly need "access" to more Coinshots, right? What would that access facilitate, and how? And, however it is they are benefiting from the access, shouldn't that give the Basinfolk some insight into the mechanics involved in leverging up Metalborn powers with their tech?

Is it possible there are some types of Allomantic or Feruchemical power that they don't have in the South, and thus cannot make cubes from/medallions for? Like, powers that use more rare metals?

Edited October 12, 2022 by robardin

[Isilel]

8 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Although we do not know exactly how long the charge last it seems like it does deteriorate without "toping off" so I would assume you would have to have a Coinshot on the crew for any lengthy travel. 

 

Maybe the southerners have a way to prevent deterioration which they didn't share. Like, keeping it in an aluminum container, for instance. Maybe unused primer cubes are normally sealed and remain full. Judging by Allik and Co. reaction to Our Heroes in BoM, they didn't have a Coinshot among the crew.

What bugs me about all this Trell stuff is - where is Kelsier in all of this? Or Marsh for that matter? Why didn't he/they put a stop to a movement aimed at destroying Scadrial?! And also - why didn't he share medallion technology with the northeners, which used to be led by his dear friend Spook? Are limitations of southern medallions something that he imposed on purpose too, or did the makers do so to get payed not just for producing them, but for upkeep too?

[Frustration]

50 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Although we do not know exactly how long the charge last it seems like it does deteriorate without "toping off" so I would assume you would have to have a Coinshot on the crew for any lengthy travel. 

Allik puts the cube inside a device that keeps it running while on the whilg.

[StormingTexan]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Allik puts the cube inside a device that keeps it running while on the whilg.

Yes but what I am getting at is assuming the primer cubes need to be used periodically this would limit the  range of the ships if they do not have access to a coinshot on the actual crew. It is also clear that they build their ships with a coinshot in mind with the straps and stuff Wax used. From what we see the cubes charges deteriorate. Perhaps the large airships can run for a long time once primed so not really necessary but the smaller skimmers I would think need to be primed to operate which would require re-charging. Unless it is as mentioned above they have some way to keep the cubes from deteriorating. Which is entirely possible obviously they are not being completely transparent.  

 

1 hour ago, robardin said:

The airship's captain in Ch. 9 making the pointed observation that Wax, a "natural born Coinshot", could not fly up to his ship unaided, should imply they also don't particularly need "access" to more Coinshots, right?

I didn't interpret this way. More of posturing implying a coinshot alone without their technology is inferior not that they do not need them. Although probably done in a little bit of a condescending way the Admiral does address him with honorifics implying they do hold Allomancers in high regard. 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, StormingTexan said:

Yes but what I am getting at is assuming the primer cubes need to be used periodically this would limit the  range of the ships if they do not have access to a coinshot on the actual crew. It is also clear that they build their ships with a coinshot in mind with the straps and stuff Wax used. From what we see the cubes charges deteriorate. Perhaps the large airships can run for a long time once primed so not really necessary but the smaller skimmers I would think need to be primed to operate which would require re-charging. Unless it is as mentioned above they have some way to keep the cubes from deteriorating. Which is entirely possible obviously they are not being completely transparent.  

That's what the device does. The cube in BoM only has a few seconds of charge, but inside the device Allik puts it in it keeps going long after it should have run out.

[StormingTexan]

Just now, Frustration said:

That's what the device does. The cube in BoM only has a few seconds of charge, but inside the device Allik puts it in it keeps going long after it should have run out.

Right I get that. But to launch a dingy (or skimmer what ever you want to call it) do they need a primer cube like we saw in BoM? I am picturing the primer cubes kind of like a battery in a car. Needed initially to turn the engine on. Once you start driving the alternator uses mechanical energy to recharge the battery but without the battery (or primer cube in this case) the car would not start initially. Now with a big airship they could potentially just "leave the car on" indefinitely but I would think the smaller ones would be "started" at each use. 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, StormingTexan said:

Right I get that. But to launch a dingy (or skimmer what ever you want to call it) do they need a primer cube like we saw in BoM? I am picturing the primer cubes kind of like a battery in a car. Needed initially to turn the engine on. Once you start driving the alternator uses mechanical energy to recharge the battery but without the battery (or primer cube in this case) the car would not start initially. Now with a big airship they could potentially just "leave the car on" indefinitely but I would think the smaller ones would be "started" at each use. 

Yes, but they can just reuse the same cube. They need it to work the propellers anyways.

[+robardin]

27 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

I didn't interpret this way. More of posturing implying a coinshot alone without their technology is inferior not that they do not need them. Although probably done in a little bit of a condescending way the Admiral does address him with honorifics implying they do hold Allomancers in high regard. 

Right, their technology is superior to a "naked Coinshot", though they do honor such people.

But if their "Steelpushing Tech" is already more powerful than Wax can do alone, then where is the "value added", from the Malwish POV, of having "access to the Metalborn" of the Basinfolk? Are they able to create more medallions, more primer cubes, than before, with more Metalborn people? Or to create new ones they couldn't before?

And if that "access" involves physically borrowing those Metalborn... What are they doing to leverage their powers?

I'm imagining some kind of trade deal where Wax, Marasi, Wayne, or other Metalborn, are contracted out by the government to spend a few days in a room at the Malwish embassy getting rubbed all over with cubes, or "Excised" for Feruchemical powers, LOL.

Actually the "access" has been only of Allomancers, so yeah, cube rub-down? And the Malwish would have liked far more such access.

Quote

 “I look forward to continued peace and favorable trade between our nations.”

“Favorable?” Daal said. “For you, perhaps.”

“We’ve both benefited. You’ve had access to our Allomancers.”

“Limited access,” he said. “Far too limited compared to the rich accommodations you have received.”

“Three skimmers?” Wax asked. “A handful of medallions? All essentially useless without the ability to maintain them on our own or create more.”

“Surely you don’t expect us to give up the means of our production? One sells the goods, not the factory.”

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by robardin

[Isilel]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

The airship's captain in Ch. 9 making the pointed observation that Wax, a "natural born Coinshot", could not fly up to his ship unaided, should imply they also don't particularly need "access" to more Coinshots, right?

I wonder if he could have reached it if a Nicrosil Misting boosted him. Naturally, Wax wasn't going to bring it up. 

 

 

1 hour ago, robardin said:

Is it possible there are some types of Allomantic or Feruchemical power that they don't have in the South, and thus cannot make cubes from/medallions for? Like, powers that use more rare metals?

 

IMHO it is very likely, yes. Additionally, the medallion-making method may not be "one size fits all", but has to be adjusted for each metal, which would require a lot of experimentation and would  be greatly helped by having more people to try it with. Or, given the secrecy, maybe to charge lots of ettmetal, which is then transported back south and used for experiments there.

 

11 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

 I am picturing the primer cubes kind of like a battery in a car. Needed initially to turn the engine on. Once you start driving the alternator uses mechanical energy to recharge the battery but without the battery (or primer cube in this case) the car would not start initially. Now with a big airship they could potentially just "leave the car on" indefinitely but I would think the smaller ones would be "started" at each use. 

But couldn't they charge primer cubes to start a skimmer from the engine of a big ship, which is always left on on the lowest setting or something? And I also believe that there is a way to stop or greatly slow the charge deterioration. Southerners being technologically ahead probably could produce much cheaper aluminum for some time.

I get you about the straps-and-plate, but are they even part of the original design? Wasn't there a period of cooperation between the Malwish and the Set - maybe it was installed during it?

[StormingTexan]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Yes, but they can just reuse the same cube. They need it to work the propellers anyways.

Correct they can re-use the cube but it still has to be charged and from what we are seeing the charge deteriorates after a period of time. So let's say you leave the mother land on an exploration mission with even a dozen or more of the cubes they are limited by range by the deterioration period of the charge unless they bring their own coinshots to recharge them. Unless they have a way to prevent the deterioration that we have not seen yet. 

 

49 minutes ago, robardin said:

Right, their technology is superior to a "naked Coinshot", though they do honor such people.

But if their "Steelpushing Tech" is already more powerful than Wax can do alone, then where is the "value added", from the Malwish POV, of having "access to the Metalborn" of the Basinfolk? Are they able to create more medallions, more primer cubes, than before, with more Metalborn people? Or to create new ones they couldn't before?

And if that "access" involves physically borrowing those Metalborn... What are they doing to leverage their powers?

I'm imagining some kind of trade deal where Wax, Marasi, Wayne, or other Metalborn, are contracted out by the government to spend a few days in a room at the Malwish embassy getting rubbed all over with cubes, or "Excised" for Feruchemical powers, LOL.

Actually the "access" has been only of Allomancers, so yeah, cube rub-down? And the Malwish would have liked far more such access.

Yes obviously there must be some benefit to them to have access to Metalborn. I am kind of leaning toward they do not have much or enough access to particular ones.  

 

Edit: @Isilel Yes that is an idea essentially using the big ships  to "jump start" the little ones. Perhaps that is why we saw it done the way it was in BoM since it was a crashed ship.

Edited October 12, 2022 by StormingTexan

[Frustration]

Just now, StormingTexan said:

Correct they can re-use the cube but it still has to be charged and from what we are seeing the charge deteriorates after a period of time. So let's say you leave the mother land on an exploration mission with even a dozen or more of the cubes they are limited by range by the deterioration period of the charge unless they bring their own coinshots to recharge them. Unless they have a way to prevent the deterioration that we have not seen yet.  

That's the machine I've been telling you about. It keeps the charge from deteriorating, as can be seen by the fact that the cubes continue to function long after they would have otherwise.