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This Theory focuses around the voidbringers and their apparent nature, it seems that the voidbringers we have seen so far are Parshendi/Listeners, that have bonded Voidspren. now this changes their likeness and even changes the way they see the world. mistborn spoiler: Now the Parshendi are able to bond the Voidspren because of there obvious closeness to the cognitive realm. In fact they depend on bonding an ordinary kind of spren to gain any form of sentience. The conclusion that this closeness to the cognitive realm is what makes them voidbringers has lead me to a separate theory. And that is that the Parshendi were not the only race to get sucked into Odium's army during the desolations, I believe that the Aimian's are also capable of becoming voidbringers. I think this because in our only chapter that we see from an Aimian's perspective, Axies the collector, we see an obvious closeness to the cognitive realm in his ability to change his appearance with thought. I believe that some of the more dangerous voidbringers were actually Aimian's I say this because a Parshendi needs a spren to change it's form, an Aimian can do it at will (to a degree). I also think that this is also the cause of the general dislike of Aimian's, I know that Axies says that it is just because they are different, but i think it is actually a dislike that has been built into Rosharan culture due to the Aimian's connection with the desolations. well that's all I have, I would link quotes to Axies' chapter but i feel that the whole chapter is pretty relevant to my theory so if you want to investigate, just read it.

The Advent of Squires. My Theory is simple: squires gain their power through loyalty to and admiration of existing Knights Radiant, Thus acquiring a bond to the Knight, rather than to an actual spren. This ability is what separates the Nahel Bond, and Knights Radiant from Ancient Surgebinders. Rules: 1. it requires a Knight Radiant in full status (all three oaths) to attract Squires. This is why Squires only started appearing after Kaladin said his 3rd oath. 2. Squires have only one oath: the first oath, shared among all orders of Knights Radiant. 3. Squires are not bonded to a spren; they derive their ability to breath Stormlight from their bond to a Radiant. (Lopen would be bonded to Kaladin, etc) 4. Squires cannot utilize surges, but do gain enhanced healing, strength, etc. from holding stormlight. Anchiently, Squires likely used fabrials to mimic the surges they lacked. Consequences: 1. The number of people able to utilize Stormlight grows exponentially, rather than logarithmically. The number of people able to utilize stormlight increases drastically. 2. The existence of Squire allows an 'introductory phase' in which a person can get used to following the Radiant Oaths, or even transfer from one order to another, prior to any spren actually agreeing to bond them. This reduces the risk of a spren being killed by lack of faithfulness to oaths. 3. 'side effects' from the use of powerful Fabrials (such as soulcasters, and other fabrials which mimic the surges) are mitigated. {Note that soulcasters, over time, gain a very odd appearance, stone-like flesh, etc. one who could breath stormlight would have these effects healed long before they manifested fully.} 4. The 17th shard may make use of Squires, allowing their world-hoppers to power their off-world abilities with stormlight. (a separate theory in its own right, but worthy of consideration) EDITED: to correct and clarify

Hello all. Since my previous thread, while not getting many objections, was universally hailed as the single most dense and unreadable thing ever, and a bit of new information has come to light, I've decided to try a bit of a simplification/reboot. I'll leave off all my crazy talk about the minutia of Forging (see the original thread for that) and just talk about the bare bones of the matter with some clearly marked digressions at the end to analyse how it applies to Spren, Returned, and Forging, as well as glossing over some other possible uses for a "Form" theory of Realmatics. Evidence: We've got various quotes pointing us in this direction: Brandon's comment on "poopspren" opens up the possibility of a bit more Cognitive-Spiritual fuzziness than I've been talking about up until now, but I would hazard that the Cognitive versions of Forms are akin to "working copies" that serve as an intermediary between "ideal" Spiritual Forms and the amalgamation of Cognitive perceptions: the Cognitive version can get messy and be reactive, with the initial version based on and tied to the pure Spiritual Form and the end results (after being gnawed on by a few thousand people's brains) percolating up to the Spiritual--and so providing a mechanism for both changing existing Forms and creating new ones. This is somewhat similar, at least in terms of metaphor, to Sazed's two sets of Copperminds. EDIT 2: Actually, looking at another part of Nepene's question, this is almost certainly how it works. Not sure how I overlooked that before. Basic Theory: Stop me if I get too convoluted. Okay. As you can see in the quotes above, Spren as we know them (visible, interacting Spren, not pseudo-Cognitive aspects) are based on "cognitive ideals or concepts which have taken on literal personification over time". As I asked Brandon, this is the same type of thing that lets a window being remade out of new stained glass or a block of gold being adulterated with lead judge the plausibility of its Forgery. It is also the same thing that makes Returned of one era (including Vasher, actually) fat and those of another era athletic (also including Vasher, reinforcing that he accesses an external "Returned" Form rather than just changing his own perceptions). These "Forms," then, are quasi-independent Spiritual entities that come into being as a result of the massed Cognitive perceptions of large numbers of sapient (as in perceiving, not necessarily self-aware) beings. So "Fire," "Wind," "Pain," and "Window" all have Forms because they are abstractions from the specific to the general. I take these truths to be self-evident, given the information we have. Expansion: I hereby spare you an expansion. Look at the original thread if you want to torture yourself, or I'll gladly expand on and/or defend the theory if anyone has questions to ask below. Applications: Forging: As I lay out in far more detail in the other thread I linked to, the "plausibility" of Forgeries seems to depend, to a large extent, on manifold Spiritual connections to appropriate Forms. So whether or not a block of gold would be adulterated with lead, or a set of manacles made out of soap, is dependent on quasi-independent manifestations of social norms. Nepene's question also gave us the fact that more "local" views can also have an affect on a Forgery: thousands of people going "AH! The Emperor is a homunculus!!!!" is just as effective as a Form in this regard, and should work in the same way. Returned and Divine Healing: Looking at Nepene's and my own question, it's clear that the beauty standards of Returned are dependent on some highly external sense of human physical ideals. These standards seems to be externally imposed as well, looking to Nepene's question. Also, as I mentioned when discussing Vasher above, these ideals seem to be actively as well as externally imposed on those who are in "Returned" form, as opposed to being simply internalized at one point and then not updated, though I suppose Vasher could conceivably have intentionally "updated" his Returned appearance. As I mentioned here, I would posit that the healing done by the sacrifice of a Returned's Divine Breath is so much better than normal magical Healing--healing Susebron to have a tongue and the ability to speak, instead of the normal "you heal back to the form of yourself" you see with Forging and Feruchemy--because it accesses some Form of human health, external to the healed and thus not restricted by their Cognitive aspect. Spren: Though I do have an entire thread on the matter, I would like to reiterate that Spren seem to be the purist manifestation of these Forms that we have yet seen. Whether windspren are drawn to the wind or are the wind, their forms seem to be entirely dependent upon both incidental Cognitive perceptions (see: locked flamespren in the interlude) and broader, more universal Forms. General Effects of Forms: It's dawned upon me (oh no) that Forms seem to serve a similar function to the Cognitive Realm. Not Realmatically (though they kind of do that too), but in terms of Brandon being able to write books and magic systems that don't break down under their own weight. Just as the Cognitive stops the world from exploding whenever someone tries to leave a Cadmium bubble and allows Healing without Miles being a mass of tumors, so Forms restrict and guide magic along "common sense" routes on a more meta-scale. The spoiled are just a few thoughts I've had, and are tangential to the theory as a whole. They're probably worth spinning theories off of, if anyone likes my Form theory and wants to expand on it a bit. Wow, that's more than I wanted to have to force you to read. Sorry (again). I would like to stress that a fair amount of this is conjecture; highly educated (*pats own back*) and plausible conjecture, but conjecture nonetheless. I've tried to note--with quotes, links, or "as we all knows"--wherever what I say is canon. EDIT: Nvm, turns out I'm right in a lot of ways. That's nice.

*Small TES Spoilers* At 7:30 in the TES Writing Excuses episode, Brandon identifies at least part of the foundation of Realmatics: "we're delving into the Cosmere stuff, my underlying theory of existence in my novels, which is based on a mash-up between Platonic Forms and Asian style 'everything has a soul'". We can see at least some of this happening in TES with how Forging works, but particularly with what happens when you Forge simple objects, like Shai's stained glass window. In her discussion with Gaotona: Spren, then, seem to represent these self-same forms (the Forms of Fire, Wind, Pain, Fear, Gravity, Ale...). The question, then, is whether spren are Cognitive beings (as most people have assumed, I think) that access Spiritual Forms or if they are mostly just Spiritual beings. If spren are Spiritual in nature, then it would lend credence to Windrunner's idea of Spiritual/Physical overlap giving rise to the Cognitive Realm, especially when paired with Syl's inability to think in the Physical Realm without her bond with Kaladin. Some Cognitive overlap obviously occurs, though, such as how Flamespren are seen (when measured) affecting their nature in perfect alignment with how the Cognitive realm--"how an object is viewed and how it views itself" (pg 53)--works. Spren are imperfect tokens of the Forms, then, not the Forms themselves, so I think that they are Cognitive beings that have a strong access to and dependency on Spiritual Forms, but are not just Spiritual representation of the Forms themselves. Mildly less concrete: This also explains why Spren can be so region-specific (such as Ale-spren and Cusicesh), since local belief in specific Forms is necessary for their to be any local Spiritual Form for spren to latch onto. This means that, if Shai went to some world/region that simply didn't have the concept of glass windows, she wouldn't be able to Forge one, no matter how plausible she made it, since no Windown form would exist for her to access. Somewhat less concrete: This is also implied by the fact that "the more people who know of a Forgery, the more likely it is to fail." (pg 42 ?), implying that Forgeries rely on the constant maintenance of their foundational Forms (i.e., and "Emperor as the Emperor" Form rather than a "Emperor as a simulcrum" Form as the basis for Shai's Forgery). This also implies that, if the very concept of a Window were to be instantaneously excised from Sel--or even just the Rose Empire, potentially--then Shai's Forgery of the stained glass window would fail at that very moment. EDIT: And it further follows that these Forms do not, in fact, take on any real independent existence of their own, but instead are at all times determined by the aggregate of Cognized concepts which make up their form. Like a Russellian conception of "Red" within an individual's mind being, in truth, the aggregate of all those things which a person considers to be red, or otherwise the average of them, such as how people think of a "perfect rectangle" whenever you say the word "rectangle." Although, on second thought, I suppose that the Forms could come to be as an aggregate concepts, but then "split off" into their own independent existence. That would mean that "Fear" would exist whether or not there existed entities to experience fear, which then gets us into philosophical discussions (in the Cosmere, where all philosophy matters!) of whether a number can be prime in and of itself and what have you. It could also be slightly less strict, with Forms having their own inertia once created, but still being dependent on and affected by changes in mass opinion. So everyone could stop believing that Drunkenness ought to have a Form in the town that Axies (I forget its name) visited, but it might take awhile for the spren to go away. So there's that, with many more fun and interesting things to come from TES, especially after the latest Orem signing is up and we have more questions answered . EDIT (6/8/13): I thought it was time to add some new evidence that pretty much locks some version of this theory in. Various passages, because evidence is fun Two different types of "spren", one is essentially a Cognitive aspect, the other is based on "cognitive ideals or concepts, which have taken on literal personification over time" "Spren are created by the perceptions of men" Also, I've posted two other theories about Forms since this one. One on their general structure and specifically how they relate to Forgery (immediately derailed, impossibly dense) and one that's more streamlined. UPDATE: Theory confirmed.

I raised this question in another thread, but thought it deserved a broader audience: Why haven't we seen any Herald spren? The Heralds are as much an idea as Honor or Cultivation. Even though the Heralds are human, one would think that through the Vorin religion they've become idealized and should have become personified by the spren. If the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher, so-called "Godspren" (at least in this Forum), personify Honor and Cultivation (at least in part), why aren't there spren personifying each of the Heralds? Or maybe there are...Can "maybe-Taln" actually be a Taln-spren that's found a human warrior to bond with? That might explain "Taln's" confusion - his spren just hasn't adjusted to the Physical Realm yet. The human host might have lost his own memories, perhaps in a western Roshar battle, since there seems to be an ongoing war there.So all he's got is his spren trying to figure "Taln"-things out on his own. I don't know whether the host's abnormally quick reflexes are natural to him or spren/Stormlight-enhanced, and I assume he would have had his own shardblade, since it's clearly neither an Honorblade or a spren-blade. Or maybe it IS Taln who's been bonded by his own spren? Not really pushing the Taln-spren idea - it requires a lot of twisting of what we know to shoehorn it into something plausible - but it does seem odd that we haven't encountered a Herald spren. Thoughts?

Sooooooo I'm bored and..... well I want to make a list of creative spren. I KNOW ITS ALREADY BEEN DONE 1) glass spren, little humanoid spren that appear as fog on glass. can only exist on glass but can move between unconnected pieces of it. 2) tech spren, I just want something to blame when my computer doesn't work ok 3) band spren, I know that music spren already exist but these are different. They form the figure\s of the band or person who sang or played the song and play along. The more you like the band the stronger that spren are and can enhance the music 4) night spren, I think these already exist but they are basically shadows in human form that exist when a person feels uncomfortable with a dark situation. 5) enthusiasm spren, little figures that jump up and down when what ever brought them into existence is overly exited. Misty prevalent when reading my posts or meeting your favourite authors. That's five for now, make your own list. if there's a spren in every thing I'm sure you can think of some creative ones. Yours- a spren obsessed rain spren

There seem to be some interesting parallels between Memories and different types of beings in the cosmere. It seems like memories and sentience are the easiest thing to lose any time there's Cognitive dissonance. Obviously, memories are stored in the Cognitive DNA. For instance: Kandra and Mistwraiths vs Returned and Lifeless. If you spike a mistwraith, it becomes a kandra. Do you think if you spike a Lifeless, it could gain sentience, and maybe even memories (either it's own or from the spike-donor). A spike seems the easiest way to bridge the damage between Physical and Cognitive, though I'll bet there are others that we haven't seen yet. Some other instances that have come up: Seons whose bonded were taken by the Reod. Spren transitioning from the Cognitive to the Physical Realm (they leave their memories behind?). Dalinar and the memories of his wife. Terrismen/women when they put things into their copperminds. The Stormfather describes himself as "I AM THE MEMORY MEN CREATE FOR HIM, NOW THAT HE IS GONE. " The Lightweavers and their mnemonic abilities, like Shallan's Memories. Any other instances that I missed? Thoughts?

Well, during the final fight with Szeth, Syl begins to take whatever form Kaladin thinks of in his mind. "Oh. That’s right. You probably want me to be a spear, don’t you?" You guys probably remember the scene, as it's pretty dramatic: "He dove for Szeth, coat flapping, spear pointed for the man’s heart. Szeth got out of the way, but Kaladin dropped the spear and swung his hand in a great arc. Syl formed an axehead halberd. It came within inches of Szeth’s face. The assassin cursed, but responded with his Blade. A shield was in Kaladin’s hand a split second later, and he slammed away the attack. Syl shattered even as he did so, forming back into a sword as Kaladin thrust forward with empty hands. The sword appeared, and the weapon bit deeply into Szeth’s shoulder." So a radiant spren can adapt in a blink, according to thought. As they're physical manifestations of thoughts, that makes sense. And I think the limit is roughly human-sized, according to a WOB. But that's pretty big. Now, combine this thought with the fact that Adolin talks about being able to throw his (dead) Shardblade. If the user wills it, the blade will stay even after it is thrown. So the blade or whatever doesn't have to stay in contact with the person. So I wonder what the limits of this are. Being that I don't necessarily understand the Cognitive realm and its effects like some here, well, that's what I'd like to know. There may be an explanation that's easy. But if the spren effectively becomes whatever you imagine, I wondered while reading why Kaladin couldn't just imagine Syl already piercing Szeth, and it just is. Or, why couldn't he send her flying towards Szeth at the speed of thought, no matter where he dodges, effectively becoming a guided MisSyl*? The knowledge of some folks here amazes me. So fill me in: is this possible, and just waiting for another oath or ability? Or is it beyond spren abilities for reasons I don't yet know? * I'll be here all week. BaDUM!

I was rereading WoR and I noticed something: The only time Syl notices Pattern is at the duel where Kaladin jumps in to help. Shouldn't Spren instinctively feel each other or at least feel people that our bonded to other Spren? Allomancers or should I say Seekers could feel any allomatic activity nearby. I know they aren't the same thing but as Spren are mostly in the Cognitive realm than the physical you would assume there is a footprint or some clue.

Some info gathering on spren bonding, as of the end of WoR (spoilers ahoy!)... with some analysis. Prologue: Jasnah starts to form bond with Ivory "6 years ago". She feels that "she had sensed those eyes upon her during the previous months" - it wasn't out of the blue. Ivory seems to be in (leading?) a group of the same spren. Chapter 1: Jasnah states that "It's an act of self-preservation. The spren sense impending danger, and so return to us" Chapter 3: Jasnah states that "The knights' breaking of their oaths was very painful to the spren" and "Though Ivory won't speak of it, I gather that what he's done is regarded as a betrayal by the others of his kind" - I wonder if Ivory is the leader of a minority faction among his spren type. Chapter 6: Referring to the Spren she talked to in WoK when Soulcasting, Shallan thinks that "I do not think that voice belonged to Pattern". I suspect that is indeed the case because Pattern would likely have been semi-dead at the time. I suspect that other Cryptics were trying to encourage Shallan to re-form her bond with Pattern. Later in this chapter Jasnah says that she hopes she was "one of the first" (to form a spren bond) and doesn't seem to know of any others. Chapter 9: Syl believes she is the only honorspren to have come - the others were forbidden by the Stormfather. She knows there's others spren out there trying "in their own way, to reclaim what was lost". I don't think we have any real indication of when the Stormfather forbid the honorspren to form bonds or when Syl started looking. Chapter I-2: Ym has a basic bond with a plant-like spren, presumably recent from his point of view. He is killed by Nin. We don't know when this occurs based on any tie-in with real world events - it would be interesting to know if the spren was of the same type as Wyndle and whether they looked for a new candidate (ie Lift) after Ym died. Chapter 13: Pattern specifically says that "we... us... Worry. One was sent. Me." (by we/us he presumably means the Cryptics but possibly spren in general) in response to Shallan asking about the Voidbringers. We don't know when they started looking but Shallan's initial bond ended "6 years ago". Chapter I-9: Wyndle says to Lift that "You realize that I didn't choose you" and "the Ring said we should choose you". I don't think we know for certain what the Ring is but I'm guessing this is some kind of ruling council for Wyndle's spren type. Lift and Wyndle have been together for some months and Gawx becoming Prime ties in with Dalinar's reference to a new Prime at the end of the book, so the events of the chapter seem to be roughly in order with the main chapters. Chapter 80: Elhokar thinks that Kaladin frightened away the shadowy spren. Given that these seem to be Cryptics I wonder if they left because Shallan's bond with Pattern reformed instead - the timing would be right - ie maybe they were considering Elhokar as a backup plan. If so, I wonder if Pattern knows. Chapter 89: Dalinar forms a bond with the Stormfather, even though he didn't want to (I'm guessing he was compelled to by Honor). We also find out that Renarin has a spren bond that seems recent (given that his eyes improved only recently). Edit: forgot that first indication of Renarin's spren bond is back in chapter 14, when he grimaces while holding the Shardblade Adolin gave him. Here's my summary analysis: Some (all?) of the spren capable of forming the Nahel bond can tell that another Desolation is coming This threatens their existence, so they want to do something about it The spren need to form bonds with humans to help try to prevent what's coming but are highly reluctant to do so because of the Recreance. The minimum they can risk is sending just one member (ie in Pattern's case, and maybe others too). Maybe more might come later. Pattern seems to view what he's doing as practically being like a suicide mission. The Stormfather forbid honorspren from bonding at all and fears death himself. I don't remember Syl or Wyndle seeming to fear death though. There's 10 types of spren capable of forming Nahel bonds but I don't see any indication that they're actively working together or are unified, though they all face the same problem. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot of arguing going on behind the scenes - some are probably denying reality (like the Stormfather) and some are more pragmatic/serious. The earliest bondings we know about are Jasnah and Shallan. Curiously, they both occur close together (within a few months) and then there's a huge gap to the next one we know of (Kaladin). It seems unlikely to me that Jasnah and Shallan's spren were responding to something different - but then, where's the others? I suspect Nin killed some and the rest dismissed the threat. And here's some rampant speculation... I've seen a number of posts in this forum where there's grumbling that the Kholin family is attracting more than its fair share of Nahel bonding spren (and may be getting even more). I can think of one possibility (that doesn't require any assumptions) - network effects. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect Similarly to how the "network effect" can encourage users to congregate at a particular website (success breeds success) it could be that some spren have specifically chosen members of the Kholin household because other spren have done so previously. The spren would know that the humans have forgotten much, and need to re-learn. The most efficient way to maximise re-learning potential would be to do so in a group. They also might be doing this because Nin is going around killing proto-KRs. So once one spren has formed a bond successfully with a human, other spren may independently decide to follow in the first spren's footsteps and deliberately pick a suitable family member of the first human, if one is available. The 10 groups of Nahel bonding spren seem to operate independently, so they may not necessarily agree with their fellow spren. They may also have more specific requirements. Not all spren may even realise what is going on with the Kholins. So, I don't think it's a problem that not all spren have chosen the Kholin household (there's only so many to go around anyway) or have chosen at different times.

This is my first topic, so don't judge. I was thinking about different powers within the Cosmere, and I noticed the similarity between Mistings and Surgebinders: they both have limited powers. What if there was a type of Surgebinder that had all of the powers, like a full Mistborn? Would you need to bond with each type of spren, or just speak all of the ideals? If this exists, perhaps Hoid is one. I have no proof of this, so far we only know of his worldhopping (and lightweaving?) powers. But if Hoid is trying to get all of the powers, note the Lerasium bead, this would add up. Thoughts?

Greetings -- I attended Jordancon and was able to ask Brandon a few questions that didn't get the RAFO. I kept the questions very small and granular to try to get some information, since he seems to be giving fewer and fewer answers. Jordancon Signing (Paraphrased) April 11th, 2014 Q: Suppose you had a feruchemist that was also skilled in forgery. If they soul stamped themselves, would they normally be able to still use feruchemy, and if they were able to use feruchemy after a soul stamp would they be able to access their own metalminds. A: (Paraphrased): Brandon said that you could do so, but it would require jury rigging in order to make it work. Since the soul stamp overwrites the current spiritual aspect of a person. He then said that the accessing the metalminds would also require some amount of jury rigging. Q: If a feruchemist using an aluminum metalmind stored their identity to zero, then filled a coppermind with all of their knowledge, would another feruchemist with an identity set to zero be able to access the first feruchemist's coppermind? A (paraphrased): I'm not going to tell you a definite yes or no, this is something that needs to be saved for future books, but you are thinking along the correct lines about how identity works regarding feruchemists. ======= I know this isn't roshar-shattering news, but I figured granular information is better than RAFOs Regards, nalesean

So over the break I read Warbreaker. I read it once a while back, but I was stupid back then and didn't pay attention to half the stuff in it. However, this time around, I picked up on a TON of things that I felt the need to post on here. There will be some theories in here, and I neglect to put this on the Warbreaker Forum because it is much less used. As I went through, I folded the pages when I found something interesting (don`t be mad, it is a paperback). I started doing this about a third of the way through, so forgive me if I missed anything and please point it out if its relevant. NOTE: There are extensive spoilers here, obviously, and this will be a long post. The first thing I noticed while reading a Lightsong POV is that he kept on using instincts to notice and not reveal information. I noticed this when he ... noticed the trapdoor and didn`t tell the priest that were there. Page 293, paragraphs 6 and 7. Paperback edition. I noticed a few more of these throughout the book, but this is the most important. I will find them if you guys ask though. Now, we know later in the story that Lightsong used to be a scribe who sniffed out robberies for nobles etc. This (to me) doesn't account for this instinct, so it makes me wonder if it is another benefit of being returned, having a lot of Breath, having a Divine Breath, or perhaps if Endowment was trying to communicate with him. The next page I folded is when Lightsong is musing about how the Returned look. Page 350, paragraph 2. This I marked because it reminded me of the powers of observation and the way the spren worked. This point is proven later towards the end, when Vasher tells Vivenna about this as well. I folded down page 360 because of a Slumlord named Rira. I seemed to remember a thread somewhere that mentioned a Rira in Words of Radiance or TwoK. It may just be the country that Kaladin mentioned when thinking about Adolin's hair though. I might also be crazy. For the record I thought that if he was somewhere else, then he must be a Worldhopper, and my mind got away from me a bit. I folded down the beginning and end of the Hoid conversation as well. Due to events later in the book and how Hoid has a knack at being places, it seems stretched for me to believe that he wasn't on Nealthis for the Manywar and the events that happened there and I wondered why he didn't tell the whole truth to Lightsong and Siri. Pages 373-384. This next fold is when Vasher kidnaps Vivenna. Now, she mentioned before I started folding that she couldn't sense Jewels because she is a drab. I remembered this and marked the page because she mentioned Vasher approaching her with a lot of Breath. WoR spoiler: I'm too lazy to get the exact quote from the book at the moment, but I triple-checked earlier. I will (maybe tomorrow) make a thread dedicated to a Vasher theory, and I will put the link down here as well. I folded the pages where Vasher explains most of the BioChromatic entities to Vivenna. 507 and 508. I folded 513 because of Lightsong's thoughts at the beginning of the chapter. Can there only be a certain number? This would be a good question for Brandon in my opinion. Does it have something to do with the power of belief/observation that seems to be an important role in the Cosmere? Next worthy point of mine: This seems like WAY to much of a coincidence to the topic of the power of belief, and how an object views itself to not post it. Page 567 Thanks for your time, and sorry if these have been brought to light before

Hi, I made a kind of reference document (mostly stuff from the wiki) on Heralds and Surges and chapters (in progress) + some wild guesses, I thought maybe it could be useful to someone: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1R7NoW7vMfWMSezANJ1Me7p4rK72kutmnc5kuMKugqQU/edit?usp=sharing

There have been all sorts of theories regarding the origin and nature of the Stormfather and Nightwatcher. Mine is that Honor and Cultivation each invested the current incarnation of the Stormfather; and that Cultivation and either Adonalsium (though the “Old Magic”) or Odium each invested the current incarnation of the Nightwatcher. The Stormfather Both the Highstorms and the Stormfather pre-exist the arrival of Honor, Cultivation and humans on Roshar. Originally, the Highstorms were merely meteorological events. WoB states that at some point the Highstorms also became magical events. Our fearless WoB compiler RShara says she understands Brandon to mean “the stormlight part of the storm was added later, I'm assuming by a Shard.” Eshonai says the Stormfather is a traitor who was once a friend. This description suggests the Stormfather was the spren who personified the Highstorms to the Listeners. Eshonai also says the Highstorms and the Stormfather are involved in Listener form changes. Subsequent WoR events confirm that statement. The Stormfather now identifies himself as a sliver, a splinter and the spren of Honor. Humans personified Honor (the “Almighty”) as the Stormfather, by which the Stormfather became Honor’s spren. Though the Listeners claim the Stormfather betrayed them, it is unclear whether the Stormfather could have simultaneously remained a Listener’s spren. Eshonai’s comments suggest that the Stormfather may no longer be serving his function of overseeing Listener form changes, but we have no evidence of this. To the contrary, the Listeners continued to undergo their pre-stormspren form changes during Highstorms. The Stormfather’s failure to help Eshonai when she was being bound by the stormspren does not provide proof one way or the other. Throughout WoR, we see that the Stormfather has no autonomy regarding the bonding process. He accepts all KR oaths, and Syl says he has no power to stop the tightening of the Nahel bond if the KR “says the words.” This is no different than how he behaves towards Eshonai. The Stormfather states he is also a sliver of Honor. He claims he was present when Odium “murdered” Honor and fled. The following WoB provides guidance on how the Stormfather became Honor’s sliver: “Q: If Endowment were killed, would the Returned still come?” “A: Somebody needs to hold the magic. If no one holds the magic, the magic will gain sentience. Interesting and bizarre things happen then…” Odium (or rather Rayse) did not acquire any part of Honor’s splinters because other WoB says Rayse did not want to dilute his essence, his “hatefulness.” The only other sentient being in the neighborhood was the Stormfather. I believe the Stormfather absorbed Honor’s splinters and “fled.” Some indefinite time afterwards (immediately?), the Stormfather released Honor’s splinters, which greatly increased the number of Roshar’s spren (emphasis added): “Q: Were there spren bonds before Aharietiam?” “A: …The spren were around back then but they're not nearly what they are now. They've changed over the course of the book obviously…They are much more prevalent following Honor and what happened to him, but there were some spren on the planet before even that happened.” And, of course, the Stormfather retained a splinter of Honor as well. The Stormfather is thus simultaneously a spren, a sliver and a splinter of Honor, as he claims. But Cultivation has also invested the Stormfather. At a recent WoR signing, a fan asked Brandon to write something in his copy (emphasis added): “Q: For Words of Radiance, could you put a comment about something in the upcoming books, nothing specific, just something I can think about? Something like "Renarin has a spren" you wrote for somebody else in The Way of Kings? “A: [brandon wrote] ‘Stormlight makes plants grow.’" I believe the power of growth – Progression – belongs to Cultivation, not Honor. Cultivation is apparently the Shard responsible for stormlight, making plants grow and facilitating surgebinder healing. Thus, the Stormfather is a splinter of BOTH Cultivation and Honor. He may bring the Highstorms, but the stormlight the Highstorms contain come from Cultivation. The Nightwatcher We have not yet met the Nightwatcher and have much less information about her than we do the Stormfather. All we know is the following: Humans come to her for boons, which she dispenses together with a curse. Humans believe the Nightwatcher controls the “Old Magic.” Brandon has not explained what the “Old Magic” is. We believe the Nightwatcher selected Lift for Wyndle to bond with. This belief is based on Wyndle describing her as “Mother.” Since Syl and other spren call the Stormfather (and not Honor) “Father,” Wyndle’s designation suggests “Mother” means the Nightwatcher and not Cultivation. The Nightwatcher resides in the “The Valley,” which is located in the mountains between Emul and Greater Hexi. It is generally accepted in these Forums that the Nightwatcher is a rough analog to the Stormfather: Cultivation’s spren in the same way the Stormfather is Honor’s spren. This seems confirmed by Lift’s Nahel bond with Wyndle: the two surges granted Lift are Progression and Abrasion. Based on the surgebinding table and the concept of “cultivation,” these surges appear to stem from Cultivation. WoB states the analogy with the Stormfather is “on the right track” but not precisely correct. That statement suggests something else is part of the Nightwatcher. That may be why the Nightwatcher curses as well as grants boons. There are two other potential sources of Investiture in her: the “Old Magic” and Odium. According to the Coppermind Wiki, the “Old Magic” was the dominant religion on Roshar before the rise of Vorinism. Since Brandon has said that all Cosmere magic ultimately derives from Adonalsium, and we know Adonalsium has invested on Roshar, then the “Old Magic” may be derived from Adonalsium. If so, then the Nightwatcher is a spren of both Cultivation and Adonalsium. Alternatively, because the Nightwatcher curses her beneficiaries, Odium may have invested in the Nightwatcher. Both her name and behavior imply a darkness or meanness to her character. Human consciousness may have personified the uncertainties of growth and development in both beneficial and hateful terms, thus producing a spren comprised of both Shards. I find it interesting that the Nightwatcher’s curses seem unrelated to her boons: that would imply an almost schizophrenic or multiple personality spren whose two components don’t coordinate. We may not learn a lot more about the Nightwatcher until the second five SA books. That’s a long time to wait…

The Listeners seem to believe that the spren chose humans instead of Listeners as surgebinders because the Listeners were in some way inadequate. Following, respectively, are the Listener Song of Spren, 9th Stanza (epigraph to WoR Chapter 32) and the Listener Song of Secrets, 40th Stanza (epigraph to WoR Chapter 28): "The spren betrayed us, it’s often felt. Our minds are too close to their realm That gives us our forms, but more is then Demanded by the smartest spren, We can’t provide what the humans lend, Though broth are we, their meat is men." "The betrayal of spren has brought us here. They gave their Surges to human heirs, But not to those who know them most dear, before us. ’Tis no surprise we turned away Unto the gods we spent our days And to become their molding clay, they changed us." These passages seem to get backwards the relationship between cognitive beings (humans and Listeners), on the one hand, and spren. New types of spren come into existence when cognitive beings on Roshar personify something they have created or observed. Honor created surgebinding when he gave the Honorblades to the human Heralds. Sometime later, after the concept of human surgebinding had become personified in Shadesmar, spren created other human surgebinders through the Nahel bond. Spren did not “choose” humans to be surgebinders. There were simply no spren that personified a Listener surgebinding experience. That doesn’t mean it can’t be done. WoB states Listener surgebinding is possible. It just hasn’t been done. Yet…

The Nahel Bond The Nahel Bond is the spren-bond that grants humans and parshendi access to surgebinding and voidbinding. If a "cultivation bond" exists, it probably falls under this heading as well. The quallification to receive the bond is primarily about behavior. It requires either a willing—or at least accepting—subject in order for it to work. (or in the case of Eshonai, one who is unable to resist. Something about her being Parshendi: I don't think a human could be forced into a bond that way.) While I think I understand most of this fairly well, I don't know if others will. I'd also like some feedback, to tell me if I've made any obvious mistakes. Humans The primary effect for a human host is gainting magical power, including the ability to consume and use stormlight, as well as additional abilities depending on the specific bond. To the spren, the benefit is even more important: sentience. It is important to note that Spren who normally participate in Nahel bonds, are sentient in their own right while in the cognitive realm; once crossing over into the physical realm, they quickly begin to deteriorate. The bond stops that deterioration, allowing them to function as they normally would. Additionally, the presence of a spren on the physical realm allows them much greater freedom and greater ability to influence world events. Parshendi are Different. The minds of Parshmen are much closer to the cognitive realm then those of humans are, and as a result, parshmen face a deterioration of intelligence and identity similar to what spren experience. Though the effect is to a slightly-lesser-extent, the results is roughly the same: parshmen do not think if they can avoid doing so—it's just too difficult, and too unpleasant. (Words of Radiance; page numbers later) Because of this malady, universal to the parshman and parshendi race, the Nahel bond takes a largely different form: Rather than the spren having their mind drawn further into the physical realm, and allowed to dwell there safely, the parshendi mind is drawn further into the cognitive realm, thereby allowing them to escape the mental inhibition they and the spren both normally experience when on the physical realm. (consider this section well founded speculation) Sadly, when bound to a parshendi, the spren is not granted an independence cognitive presence on physical realm, as they would be with a human host. Instead, the spren is allowed a presence within the mind of the parshendi, granting them a VERY strong influence on the thoughts, emotions, outlook, and actions of the host in question. (This does vary. Think of the mental impact granted throught the WORK, MATE, and STORM forms. they are all very different in degree and nature.) While it might be argued that the amount of influence this allows the spren on the physical realm is more or less than that which they would receive from a human host, the nature of the influence clearly appeals to some spren more than others. (Honorspren might be adverse to mind-control) Additionally, it should be mentioned that the Parshendi are capable of bonding with nonsentient/marginally sentient spren already found on the physical realm. Most common 'forms' used by parshendi are, in fact, of this type. (A great deal of speculation could also be attached to this one detail.) ---- Beyond this I have three connected questions I am not certain about, and likely should take to Brandon at the next open Q&A. 1. If a parshman bonded to an Honorspren (, Cryptic, etc) would they gain the same surgebinding abilities as a human? Would a Human gain the same abilities as parshmen do if he were to bind to a Stormspren? 2. Parshendi change their physical shape when they take on new Nahel bonds. Is this a trait of the Parshman race, or a result of the type of spren they are bonding? 3. Parshendi are able to exchange the bond they have with one spren for a bond with other spren of their choice. Is it possible for humans to do the same? Would the spren be harmfully effected by this kind of activity? ---- Any ideas on these 3 are appreciated as well.

Brandon gives us plenty of spren descriptions, but the description of Angerspren seem to differ from place to place in the books. Humans get pools of bubbling blood. (that makes my blood boil) Parshendi get red lightning storms. It seems like there are two different types of spren called angerspren; angerspren and stormspren. Eshonai is not surprised in the first quote by the form of the spren, only that they appeared at her reprimand. Pattern confirms that stormspren are a type of voidspren. The stormspren seem to be hanging around the Listeners, just waiting to bond for stormform.

At this point, I'd like to put some increased evidence forward for the idea that the Parshendi are the true inhabitents of Roshar, who initally went to war against humanity for reasons that were somewhat understandable. Perhaps they were even created by Adonalsium when it was on Roshar, but that is irreleveant. Firstly, I'd like to point out that the Parshendi are unable to bond with the Nahel spren. I interpret this to mean that the Parshendi were unable to bond with the Nahel spren because they were closer to the Cognitive Realm than other peoples. This allowed them their forms, but they were not well-rooted enough in the Physical realm to form Nahel bonds with the most intelligent spren. However, then for whatever reason, human refugees arrived, I believe fleeing an attack by Odium onto their home planet of Braize, in the company of Honor and Cultivation. And they could bond with the Nahel spren just fine. However, they also were doing what humans do and conquering the Parshendi land with the help of these powers, and powerful spren such as the Stormfather, who they called traitor. They beat the Parshendi and drove them back into Braize, which was now a hellish nightmare, thanks to Odium. They called this place Damnation. I believe some memory of this conquest can be seen in this Death Rattle. The Parshendi, who had been around for much longer, felt betrayed by the spren, who gave humans some fantasitc abilities. How could the Parshendi hope to match them? This is echoed here, with disturbing implications. At this point, I believe Odium saw what had happened happening, and realized that he had had a stroke of good fortune. His army was here. They were angry, they wanted their homes back. So, he and the Unmade made an accord with them. They would give them new forms, forms of power, in exchange for destroying humanity. The Parshendi agreed, without realizing the trick. Once they took on these forms and bonded with Odium's voidspren, they were his Voidbringers, scourge of Roshar. This is shown here. The Parshendi songs even claim that the gods gave them powers similar to the human Surges. Another quote again mentions that it was crafted by the Unmade. This also explains something else. The Last Legion may not have been able to remember a time when they were free to chose their own form, but it used to be so, before humanity arrived. So although time has dulled the specifics, the ideas of the forms themselves remain. There is one quote that seems important that I cannot make sense of, though. Ideas on what this means are welcome. All in all, I think this is a pretty solid interpretation of early Rosharan history and the conflict between the humans and the Voidbringers. Obviously some of the details may be wrong, but I think the outlines are on the right track.

Cusicesh is so different from every spren we've ever seen that I'm reluctant to take people's word for it that it's actually a spren. Character misinformation isn't anything new (c.f. Mistborn...). "It's weird, it must be a spren!" That said, if it weren't a spren, what would it be? And if it's actually a spren, what is it a spren of?

During my reread of WoR today, I happened upon this little gem while Kal is in prison: (Ch. 62 "The One Who Killed Promises") Sounds like Axies' incarcerationspren to me. I guess he's never seen them because he's never been imprisoned in the Alethi Warcamps. (Or maybe its because of the differences between how he and Kaladin Cognitively interpret imprisonment, but that's a theory for another day.) Are there any other neat references back to The Way of Kings that you've noticed? (Sorry if people have already noticed this, it didn't appear in any of the searches I did.)

What I want to know is if Vasher could awaken his own Divine breath into a shardblade without dying? I assume conventional thought is if Divine breath leaves the body, the Returned dies. Maybe that only happens if the Divine Breath is consumed like it is when used to give divine healing. But on Roshar, you have a connection to investiture that is maintained spiritually without physical contact. Kaladin does not need to have Syl perched on her shoulder to surgebind. A bonded shardblade can be given to another and be used but still belongs to the Bondholder, and can be called back ten heartbeats later. So knowing something like that is possible, could Vasher use his Divine Breath to Awaken, and still be connected to it to maintain his Heightenings and his life? Could he solidify it into a shardblade he was still bonded to with the right command? Inquiring minds want to know! ALSO! In regards to investing a invested object, at the very least the power of Endowment can do so. When Breaths are given, not stored, or used to attempt to awaken, they always seem to transfer, even if the other side is unwilling. You may not be able to awaken a honorblade/shardblade, in a way that you could retrieve them, but if you used a command closer to the breath giving command than a awakening one, it should work. We know that there is some information stored in the breaths themselves, based on how WoB has said Divine Breath Healing works, where there is a bit of an Ideal contained in the breath itself. WoB is there is something in the "dead" shardblades that was broken and needed to be repaired when the Knights Radiant caused the Recreance. I see three possible ways to repair what was broken. 1. Hardest. The KR had a bond with their spren, So do modern shardbearers. I think it is the same bond, just broken by the KR, and that is why is takes a gem to establish and does not grant much. Also because modern shardholders to not actually offer anything to the bond at all. I think if you could identify the type of spren in the shard, and uncover the concepts behind all five of their oaths, and live a life by those oaths, possibly including saying them out loud, this would repair the damage caused by the previous bearers breaking them. Pros: no magic required. Cons: Living with all the downsides of being a KR, but none of the perks for an extended period. Also without a spren on your shoulder pointing you on the correct path. Finding the ideals you need to follow is hard without an existing five oath KR of the same order. 2. Moderate difficulty. Giving some amount of regular breaths to a "dead" shardblade to fill the gap caused by the broken oaths, either healing the damage completely, or mitigating it enough to allow them to begin to form a mutual bond there they can benefit from their human's "human-ness" and begin to heal themselves, which spren cannot do on their own. Pros: I think this is possible, and it could allow results much sooner and easier than in #1. As number one requires the equivalent of a 5 oath KR to heal the break, but this could begin healing by someone who was only capable of keeping the first oath currently. Cons: While WoB has said Breaths are very versatile, and much more is possible with them than is currently known, The specific command to do this is not known and would need to be researched. Breaths will also be permanently divested during research finding the command procedure, and to revive every dead blade, because you are giving them away as a effect to a living (but brain dead/thought locked) spren. They are alive enough not to be recoverable to you tried an awakening command, and are also investiture, which normally resists conflicting investiture. Which is why you have to use the properties of Endow breath to them to get around this, permanently giving them away. 3. Easiest Have a Returned expend their Divine Breath to instantly heal whatever damage the Recreance caused. Pros: The Divine Breath is a powerful splinter of Endowment, seemingly designed for this sort of thing. Using a Divine Breath defaults to perfectly healing the recipient. Cons: Only a Returned has a Divine Breath, and they are created on another world by a different shard. Choosing to do this kills the Returned. This is not actually giving away the investiture but using it so it returns to endowment, so there may be investiture vs investiture conflict. Since this is a specific specialized function of the divine breath, and is not detrimental to the recipient, I think it will work, but am not sure. edited for tags.

I was wondering what kind of spren you might come across in your everyday life, say in your workplace, in your home or your neighbourhood? As a medical student, spending most of my time in the hospital now, I was thinking about what kind of spren I might see while working there. The obvious one would be rotspren - there are some insane presentations of abscesses and advanced infection that show up on the surgical ward, and it would make diagnosing pneumonia a breeze! I think there would be less fearspren coming from patients than you'd expect. More likely exhaustionspren (or frustrationspren) and the same could be said for the doctors. And having painspren around could help us objectively just the level of pain someone is in - no more scale of 1 to 10! Just, "The patient presented with upper right quadrant pain attracting 12 painspren..." (Would that work? Or is the level of spren attracted subjective?) But the medical students would probably have plenty of fearspren around! But we'd also attract a heck of a lot of gloryspren the first times that we get a procedure right. Like when I got my first cannula sited just right, I felt like a god! I've also been skydiving twice, and it would have been even cooler with windspren along for the ride! What kind of spren would you encounter in your life? I feel like this kind of question could help us understand how spren operate. Also, can non-sentient life attract spren? So if your dog attacked and killed a vicious piece of clothing hanging too low on the line, would he attract gloryspren?

I thought about this one today when I was meant to be studying other things (Learning is difficult when you're still living in a book's world). The specific number of Bondsmiths was stated in WoR as three. Always three. The epigraph implied heavily that the Bondsmiths made the choice to keep their numbers limited. However, Dalinar's actions at the end of WoR gave me another idea: What if the Bondsmiths can only bond with unique spren? I know, every sentient spren is unique, but there are other honorspren than Syl, more Cryptics other than Pattern and so on. The unique spren would be of the Stormfather level, and he is a fragment of Honor. (I don't know if this makes him a Splinter, or so on) So what if the NIghtwatcher is the same to Cultivation as the Stormfather is to Honor? That would account for another Bondsmith. The final one gets interesting. Would they be tied to Odium's spren? I think it has a kind of poetic balance, based on the idea that to truly unite a people, you have to understand every aspect. One Bondsmith represents Honor (Dalinar), another Cultivation and yet another Odium. I'm interested in seeing what effect bonding with the Stormfather will bring about on Dalinar's personality. Does he remain a separate entity, or will the two minds fuse to a degree? If they remain separate, a Bondsmith could bond with Odium's unique while remaining level headed and not poisoned with hate. My previous theories have all been proposed before, or WoB'd out, but I think I'm finally getting on top of the speculation around here!