[OB]Odium's natural magic system

[Bigmikey357]

No theory, just some idle speculation. We know that the Rosharan System was not Rayse's original stomping ground. He's a late-comer that invested in the native magic system, co-opted so that the magic he drives looks rather similar to the Shards in residence. Badvadin does the same thing on Scadrial making new kandra with a different god metal. My question is, if Rayse had different priorities and did what most shards do i.e. finding a planet of their very own and pouring their investiture into it, what would his magic system ultimately look like? According to Realmatic theory the intent of the Shards drives the magical interactions. For example, Hemalurgy ruins, Allomancy preserves,  Surgebinders both bind and cultivate. With a Shard whose Intent is hate, how would that manifest in a magic system?

Edited June 30, 2018 by Bigmikey357

[teknopathetic]

I truly hope we get a POV of someone on Braize, and we get to see how Odium's magic works in it's natural habitat. 

It is possible though that Odium is a mimic-magic (corrupt what you hate), and that copying gives him an advantage in fighting other shards. 

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

Well those magic systems you list above have the Shardic intents affecting the individual who is using the power. Knights Radiant are forced to follow oaths (Honor) and in order to progress in their oaths they must experience personal growth (Cultivation).

Given this, someone who makes use of an Odium driven magic system will probably be influenced to hate. A magic system that entices it's user to hate would be a frightening thing to see. At the extreme end it could function like Epics in The Reckoners (I know it's not Cosmere but my point still stands) or like the inquisitors being influenced by Ruin.

As for how the magical abilities manifest I'd have to think it would be something which maximises ones ability to exert their hatred against others. I suppose we'll never know exactly what an Odium shard world magic system would look like as he will never pour his investiture into a planet. Still fun to speculate though  

[Leyrann]

7 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I truly hope we get a POV of someone on Braize, and we get to see how Odium's magic works in it's natural habitat. 

I can't find it, but there's a WoB somewhere saying we'll get scenes on Braize in Stormlight Archive.

2 minutes ago, The Harlem Worldhoppers said:

Given this, someone who makes use of an Odium driven magic system will probably be influenced to hate.

Or feel, if he's right about Passion.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Leyrann

[teknopathetic]

11 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

I can't find it, but there's a WoB somewhere saying we'll get scenes on Braize in Stormlight Archive.

Or feel, if he's right about Passion.

I truly don't believe Odium about his Passion intent. We know the Shard Holder was a loathsome man to begin with, and people who hate are often blinded by their own bias and ignorance; Odium is not a reliable source of information by sheer definition. I fully believe Odium might use passion as a. bridge to hatred, but Odium is not Passion in and of itself. 

 

WOB

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Ehhh, I don't think Odium is capable of being honest with himself. [laughter] There are times where Odium has called himself Odium. That is more out of convenience and the fact that everyone calls you by a name. But Odium is determined to change that perception. 

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by teknopathetic

[Leyrann]

Just now, teknopathetic said:

I truly don't believe Odium about his Passion intent. We know the Shard Holder was a loathsome man to begin with, and people who hate are often blinded by their own bias and ignorance; Odium is not a reliable source of information by sheer definition. 

Fair enough, let's not derail the thread with another Odium vs Passion debate.

I'm gonna make a post about it sometime so I can gather my thoughts first.

[The Harlem Worldhoppers]

11 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Or feel, if he's right about Passion.

That's interesting to think about. We know that the Shard itself is Odium but Odium/Rayse does not completely identify itself as Odium, instead seeing itself as Passion.

We also have a WoB that, over time, the god metal produced by Kelsier holding the shard of Preservation would exhibit different properties due to the intent of the vessel. Following this, if Odium genuinely sees itself as Passion then it's magic system will be influenced as such. 

We actually kind of see this with Moash at the end of OB. He feels dead inside until he gets some of that sweet Voidlight which brings him Passion. It works a little bit like a drug in some ways as by giving yourself in to Odium you give up your passion and to  recover this passion you must tap into Odium's investiture.

Edit: I'd say that the opposite of passion is apathy and that in order to be able to hate something you have to be passionate about it. Hate is passionate but not all passion leads to hatred. When people give in to Odium they become apathetic.

Edited June 30, 2018 by The Harlem Worldhoppers

[teknopathetic]

Do we thing the Illness magic of Ashyn is something natural to the planet, or an influence of Odium.

Spoilers for Oathbringer

Spoiler

Odium did invest in Ashyn, and after the catastrophe Odium was still the god of the Ashynites. Did Odium's natural magic system mix with Cultivation's and Honour's? If there were surges on Ashyn, and it really seems like there were, then it makes sense that Braize's magic system would bleed over there, too. 

Ashyn, to me, seems like a mix of Cultivation, Odium, and Honour:

Using your children and friends, making them ill, and wasting their lives for "your" benefit would certainly breed hatred. Contagious illness magic also would prevent close family ties and devotion. Plus, you cultivate the disease in order to infect the people around you. The diseases also grew to grant magical powers as a way to increase their symbiotic evolutionary benefit to the host. 

Also, the diseases may grant equivalents to the surges.

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by teknopathetic

[Leyrann]

27 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Do we thing the Illness magic of Ashyn is something natural to the planet, or an influence of Odium.

Spoilers for Oathbringer

  Reveal hidden contents

Odium did invest in Ashyn, and after the catastrophe Odium was still the god of the Ashynites. Did Odium's natural magic system mix with Cultivation's and Honour's? If there were surges on Ashyn, and it really seems like there were, then it makes sense that Braize's magic system would bleed over there, too. 

Ashyn, to me, seems like a mix of Cultivation, Odium, and Honour:

Using your children and friends, making them ill, and wasting their lives for "your" benefit would certainly breed hatred. Contagious illness magic also would prevent close family ties and devotion. Plus, you cultivate the disease in order to infect the people around you. The diseases also grew to grant magical powers as a way to increase their symbiotic evolutionary benefit to the host. 

Also, the diseases may grant equivalents to the surges.

 

According to Brandon they have evolved to be this way.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/126-ad-astra-2017/#e1862

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Questioner

Do you have another magic system that you haven't written about yet?

Brandon Sanderson

I have a ton. And, yeah, so there's some that are in the cosmere that I haven't yet gotten to, that I've got planned out. And there's some that I started writing a story on and didn't have time to finish. And I've got some weird settings. And-- yeah. So yes, there are a ton.

Questioner

Wow, that's so cool. Would you be able to share a little bit?

Brandon Sanderson

Well the most famous one that I've talked about before, so fans already know about it, is the one where people-- you gain magical talents based on diseases you catch. Like you get the common cold, you can fly while you have it, when you get over it-- it's the bacteria and viruses have evolved to give-- to interface with the magic to try and, you know, they want to keep you alive to let you spread the disease so they-- you get these powers. And that one's going to be very cool when I can write it.

 

[teknopathetic]

6 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

According to Brandon they have evolved to be this way.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/126-ad-astra-2017/#e1862

 

True enough, but did they evolve sans Shardic influence? 

[Calderis]

Not touching the Odium vs. Passion thing beyond the "odium is lying to himself" that's obligatory. On to the topic at hand. 

First, Odium's own magic system would develop completely differently depending on what world he invested in. The magic systems are an interaction between a Shard's power, and the magical focus of a world. 

Second, through end (spoilered as there's not yet an OB tag on this thread.)

Spoiler

 

I don't think that Odium's magic system is mimicking anything. I think we've barely seen it yet. The Fused, in my opinion, are a hack of surgebinding. 

Another reason I believe this is because it's to similar to something Brandon has already done. Brandon created a magic that duplicates other magic systems via theft in Hemalurgy. Another magic system that is just "this let's me do the same thing as that other magic" is uninspired in light of other works. 

Add in Renarin to that, and I think we have some proof that there's another magic system. His version of Illumination is drastically different than what we've seen from Shallan. 

So finally, I think we'll see what Odium's magic looks like, at least in what it forms as on Roshar, or more likely Braize (with Renarin mirroring the Fused and hacking Voidbinding to run on Stormlight).

 

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by Calderis

[Bigmikey357]

Even if we've barely seen what Odium's magic system looks like in the narrative, what we've seen so far looks like a Surgebinding hack more than something original. I don't believe it would manifest in the same way as it does in the Rosharan System. Maybe a Rayse-centric magic system would look a lot like the Sith Lords before the Rule of Two era. That's my best guess.

[Calderis]

@Bigmikey357 that's my entire point though. I don't think we've seen, other than in one specific instance, Odium's magic system at all.

If it looks like a hack of surgebinding, it probably a hack of surgebinding. 

If you want to discuss this part openly, can you edit [OB] into the topic title so we can discuss that without the need for spoiler boxes or hinting? 

[Fatikis]

[OB] spoilers

Spoiler

Interestingly enough Reranin grew up with "blood weakness". Some sort of epilepsy. Epilepsy can be caused by a number of diseases. Suddenly Reranin is a Surgebinder and no longer suffer's these fits. I think this might be an inadvertent magic system hack. Essentially the bacteria or virus in Reranin giving him access to old Ashyn magic while simultaneously his Radiant powers are healing him preventing the obvious outward symptoms.

The bacteria may have been dormant in his family line for quite sometime. It is likely those who survived Ashyn would have eventually developed resistance to many strains of diseases. It could have been passing dormant unnoticed from parent to child. Now you mix Evi a Riran into things. Suddenly you have the potential for a child without the natural immunity that kept the bacteria dormant.

Slightly related:
I have a theory that all Radiants are sent to Damnation/Braize. They then fight Voidbringers with the Heralds. Only the Radiants can't choose to let a desolation occur to end their suffering. Their only option would be to break the Heralds. Finally becoming a voidbringer themself. It also explains why there are not any Radiant cognitive shadows with so much investiture around. Radiants are constantly permeated with investiture. This should allow them to stick around a lot longer. Not only that but there is an incredibly supply of readily available investiture.

I stop rambling now. I'll start a separate thread on that eventually.

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by Fatikis

[Calderis]

@Bigmikey357, thanks for adding the tag.

@Fatikis unfortunately, Radiants dont go to Braize.

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Hypothetically speaking, if some of the main Radiants were to die at the end of book 5, go to Braize and then spend the time in between 5 and 6 there, would they age?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

There are lots of problems with that question. If a Radiant dies, they don't go to Braize. A Herald would, but a Herald is a Cognitive Shadow, so there's inherent problems in there. When you're a Cognitive Shadow, aging is different there, because you're basically a ghost. Even if you've been stapled to a body, it happens weirdly. So there's all kinds of flaws in that question.

source

 

[Fatikis]

Damnation. I still stick by the Reranin bit.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Fatikis

[Bigmikey357]

You know, this kinda makes me want to expand the topic somewhat.

Spoiler

Caderis writes:

Odium's own magic system would develop completely differently depending on what world he invested in. The magic systems are an interaction between a Shard's power, and the magical focus of a world. 

That's my understanding as well. In practice this means that all magic on Scadrial will look like Allomancy, all Rosharan magic will work on Surgebinding principles, all Selish magic is programming language in the form of glyphs and so on. By extension, Odium's system looks different if he invests on Nalthis as opposed to Roshar. The Intent of the Shard determines how a magic user interfaces with investiture while the solar system determines what form the magic system takes. So what determines the magic expression of a planet in the Cosmere? Was it predetermined by Adonolasium or is there something else about the place Realmatically?

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

You know, this kinda makes me want to expand the topic somewhat.

  Hide contents

Caderis writes:

Odium's own magic system would develop completely differently depending on what world he invested in. The magic systems are an interaction between a Shard's power, and the magical focus of a world. 

That's my understanding as well. In practice this means that all magic on Scadrial will look like Allomancy, all Rosharan magic will work on Surgebinding principles, all Selish magic is programming language in the form of glyphs and so on. By extension, Odium's system looks different if he invests on Nalthis as opposed to Roshar. The Intent of the Shard determines how a magic user interfaces with investiture while the solar system determines what form the magic system takes. So what determines the magic expression of a planet in the Cosmere? Was it predetermined by Adonolasium or is there something else about the place Realmatically?

We know so little about Foci... 

My opinion, and that's all it is because of how little we we know, is that they were determined by Adonalsium, other than in the case of Scadrial (or any other planet created after The Shattering). 

On a blank slate world like Scadrial was, you'll get a magic system developing for each Shard,and some kind of hybrid of the residents, all using the focus. We see this on Scadrial with three very different systems all focused around metal. 

On a world with an existing system magic system, like those created by Adonalsium, I think the Shards will make an individual system, that is mainly an expansion of what exists. 

Our confirmed Foci are:

Scadrial - Metal. 

Nalthis - Commands. 

Sel - forms 

And that's it. There's plenty of speculation on Roshar, predominantly in the form of Splinters (spren) or Bonds. I am firmly in the bonds camp. 

As I said, I think that shards entering into an existing magic system will expand upon it. I think that Honor's magic system is surgebinding. Because of the Honorblades, which spren later hacked to mimic. I think Cultivation's is Fabrials, binding a Spren in a gemstone and using it like a harnessed animal... And Voidbinding is... Something. 

[DrakeMarshall]

21 hours ago, Calderis said:

We know so little about Foci... 

My opinion, and that's all it is because of how little we we know, is that they were determined by Adonalsium, other than in the case of Scadrial (or any other planet created after The Shattering). 

On a blank slate world like Scadrial was, you'll get a magic system developing for each Shard,and some kind of hybrid of the residents, all using the focus. We see this on Scadrial with three very different systems all focused around metal. 

On a world with an existing system magic system, like those created by Adonalsium, I think the Shards will make an individual system, that is mainly an expansion of what exists. 

Our confirmed Foci are:

Scadrial - Metal. 

Nalthis - Commands. 

Sel - forms 

And that's it. There's plenty of speculation on Roshar, predominantly in the form of Splinters (spren) or Bonds. I am firmly in the bonds camp. 

As I said, I think that shards entering into an existing magic system will expand upon it. I think that Honor's magic system is surgebinding. Because of the Honorblades, which spren later hacked to mimic. I think Cultivation's is Fabrials, binding a Spren in a gemstone and using it like a harnessed animal... And Voidbinding is... Something. 

I would say Roshar's focus is specifically on symbiotic bonds.

Basically every fantastical element of the Rosharan setting revolves around a symbiotic relationship of one kind or another:

• Animals and spren have symbiotic relationships to survive. This lets greatshells defy the cube-square law and sky-eels fly.
• Surgebinders form a symbiotic bond with certain spren that allows them to use stormlight to manipulate surges.
  • Spren trapped in gemstones can also use stormlight to manipulate surges*
• Parshendi form a symbiotic bond with spren to gain different forms. If they form a bond with a sapient spren like one of their dead ancestors, it acts a lot like the nahel bond.
• People can directly bond unmade to gain powers (Yelig-Nar grants access to every surge, for example).
• Interestingly, many of the unmade have symbiotic elements. Moelach grants foresight. Nergaoul grants the ability to ignore pain.

It is hard to say what magic belongs to who, though. Most spren are a mix of Honor and Cultivation, and some are touched by Odium.

So maybe the magic on Roshar is a mix, and doesn't fit neatly into categories? I'm going to question the notion that each shard has a clearly defined magic system. That was the case on Scadrial, but remember that Scadrial was artificially created by shards, and it stands to reason that magic would be more structured in that environment.

 

*I get where you are coming with saying fabrials are Cultivation's magic, because you are cultivating the spren to harness their abilities. But fabrials still basically control the surges. I would hesitate to call fabrials a separate magic system, any more than South Scadrian technology is a fourth metallic art. I would suggest that fabrials are just a human-made and controlled version of the natural phenomenon that usually manifests as surgebinding.

[Calderis]

13 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said:

*I get where you are coming with saying fabrials are Cultivation's magic, because you are cultivating the spren to harness their abilities. But fabrials still basically control the surges. I would hesitate to call fabrials a separate magic system, any more than South Scadrian technology is a fourth metallic art. I would suggest that fabrials are just a human-made and controlled version of the natural phenomenon that usually manifests as surgebinding.

I think they're their own magic system for a couple of reasons, but most importantly, because Brandon says he thinks of them as such...

Quote

Questioner

How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them.  I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one.  And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing.

source

And also because they aren't limited to surgebinding.

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Questioner

Is, like, fabrials that can imitate, I mean, very specific forms of Surgebinding... Are there fabrials that can imitate the Surge-- <stages> of Voidbinding?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. That is theoretically possible.

source

 

17 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said:

I would say Roshar's focus is specifically on symbiotic bonds.

I think it's more than just symbiotic bonds. The Fused act as parasites, bonding to a body and killing the host in the process. Fabrials hold a spren... And it doesn't seem to get anything out of the deal. 

[DrakeMarshall]

Perhaps symbiosis is a poor choice of word, on my part.

More generally, you give something up, and you get something in return.

You will always get something out of the bond but whether it is worth it depends a lot on your priorities.

 

You visit the nightwatcher, you get a boon, and a bane to go with it.

A surgebinder swears to strict conducts, and get powers in exchange.

A nahel spren gains the ability to change, but also the ability to die.

You indugle in the thrill, you become a better fighter, at the cost of some of your free will.

You become a Regal, you gain powers at the cost of even more free will.

You become a Fused, you gain even more power, at the cost of death (or maybe not, given how the fused were once spirits of the dead).

 

Fabrials don’t work like this, but I still think that’s because they are artificial. Everything else basically follows that pattern.

[Calderis]

It's amazing to me how differently we can all see the same things. 

To me, fabrials seem like the most natural outgrowth of the rest of Roshar of any of the magics. Yes they're mechanical, but they're exactly the same phenomena as the natural spren bonds of the fauna and the singer forms. Trap a spren in a gem(heart) and use it. 

Edited July 2, 2018 by Calderis

[teknopathetic]

We do have one mention of the Passions opening up portals

Fenn says they have legends that “the one most passionate can open up the portals between worlds; every girl dreamed of being that person”. 

Is this a refernce to the oathgates, Regals, or to something different. Also, did the Theylans fight for Odium in the last desolation? Their entire culture seems like a reference to Odium’s magic. 

Edited July 2, 2018 by teknopathetic

[Scion of the Mists]

On 6/30/2018 at 0:53 PM, teknopathetic said:

Odium did invest in Ashyn, and after the catastrophe Odium was still the god of the Ashynites.

Is this true?  I can't find any info about this on Coppermind or the Arcanum.  

[Calderis]

32 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Is this true?  I can't find any info about this on Coppermind or the Arcanum.  

We know he was somehow involved in the cataclysm. We have no word in either direction that he actually invested. We do know, though, that despite what the ancient Singers believed, Odium was not "their God" 

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Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

What was the order of the Shards coming to Roshar and changing allegiances? Did Humans come with Odium?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So... you're talking about on Roshar specifically? So, Odium had visited Roshar. The humans gave him more of an ear... The Dawnsingers would have considered him the god of the people who had come, but-- I mean, it wasn't like they necessarily brought him. He was capable of getting around before that. I mean, he did kinda come along with them, he was instrumental in what happened there.

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

Okay, but he was separate, and after Honor and Cultivation had really settled there?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, he was after Honor and Cultivation had settled.

source