46 replies to this topic

[Odium's_Shard]

Apparently there were two KR Orders who practiced Soulcasting, which would infer both that it is a Surgebinding for definite, and that there would be four separate Surges between the two Orders, Transformation being just one.

I would also go as far to assume with the entire Three Parts thing, that the bond with a spren is extremely important. Take fabrials, for example. They require a spren to do what they do, trapped in the gem and infused by Stromlight, inferring that without the spren the process couldn't occur. For example, the Soulcasting fabrial. It is, most likely, a machinated version of what Shallan and Jasnah can do. They have a bond with a symbolspren, which I will assume for the sake of argument is what is inside a Soulcaster, and so does the fabrial. It can access one Surge, Transformation. This implies that, an odd comparison I know, like metals in the Metallic Arts, they are a specialized version of specific abilities.

In the Spiritual Realm, both metals and fabrials (through the spren bond) have access to a Spiritual process through the responsible Shard, albeit Odium, Honor, Cultivation, Ruin or Preservation. However, when access to this sort of power in the Spiritual Realm is given a less concrete flow, lets say, Kaladin's Nahel bond, or the Well of Ascension, then the access slot expands and gives a wider range of Surges, in this case. Like Brandon has said, when Preservation's power was given a less dense and clear label, ie solid, it become something more vague in the access it gives, ie the mists giving Vin all Allomantic abilities.

And so the Parts would go in Roshar:

Action>Personality>Nahel Bond

subsequently followed by (eventually)

Ideal/Truth spoken(?)/touch>Shadesmar/Will/communication with spren>release of spiritual power/Surge

In my theory, fabrials just falsely activate the first stage, giving you access to the second. But because you cannot talk to the spren you have trapped, touch is necessary. This is why Jasnah didn't need touch. In regards to the communicated with spren aspect of the second process this is the case for Soulcasting, I think, such as when Shallan talks to the (spren of?) the goblet to get the Transformation Surge to affect it?

This is very whacky. Read at peril.

[Aminar]

As far as the metals go, I'd assumed Burning them worked kinda like burning Atium.

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed.

When a metal is burned it becomes raw power focused in one area, the more power it puts out the faster it burns.
Once the metal has burned that power goes back to its origin point-In the planet.- From there it can be mined again, and used later.

Or at least that's my theory.

Now my question.
Shallan's painting ability is almost certainly supernatural. How does that work with the theory.

[Odium's_Shard]

Her painting ability? It is most likely connected to this ability to create a Memory. I have just been struck with an odd bolt of inspiration. Bare with me. I'm odd.

Lets say that Shallan's ability to take a memory is a Cognitive Aspect. Thus, the painting/drawing she creates much be a Physical Result. Using this Three Parts of Magic theorem, this would be the following pattern (first an example from Mistborn as to how a Physical as opposed to Spiritual Result is reached):

Spiritual Input>Cognitive Aspect>Physical Result

And so allomancy:
Focus of Allomancy (metal)>Burning (Cognitive)>Strength,speed,sight,etc. (ie pewter burning)

Hemalurgy:
Metal>Placement>Storing

And finally, Shallan's drawing:

Spiritual Focus>Memory>Drawing

Now the spiritual focus could be Stormlight. But she doesn't seem to expend any around her (does she?) like Kaladin.
Then again, it could be the spren connection. But what spren? Symbolspren? Unlikely. Maybe Creationspren? They're always around...? I doubt it. But I feel this focus is important, as it could give us a pathway to the focus of magic on Roshar!

Discuss.

[Aminar]

Her painting ability? It is most likely connected to this ability to create a Memory. I have just been struck with an odd bolt of inspiration. Bare with me. I'm odd.

Lets say that Shallan's ability to take a memory is a Cognitive Aspect. Thus, the painting/drawing she creates much be a Physical Result. Using this Three Parts of Magic theorem, this would be the following pattern (first an example from Mistborn as to how a Physical as opposed to Spiritual Result is reached):

Spiritual Input>Cognitive Aspect>Physical Result

And so allomancy:
Focus of Allomancy (metal)>Burning (Cognitive)>Strength,speed,sight,etc. (ie pewter burning)

Hemalurgy:
Metal>Placement>Storing

And finally, Shallan's drawing:

Spiritual Focus>Memory>Drawing

Now the spiritual focus could be Stormlight. But she doesn't seem to expend any around her (does she?) like Kaladin.
Then again, it could be the spren connection. But what spren? Symbolspren? Unlikely. Maybe Creationspren? They're always around...? I doubt it. But I feel this focus is important, as it could give us a pathway to the focus of magic on Roshar!

Discuss.

Aren't the weird things she sees Truthspren? Could it be that she is inherantly connected with truth and that one of the forms of magic is involved with that? It all seems connected. But I don't know how to connect the dots.

[Odium's_Shard]

I'm sorry for the confusion: truthspren and symbolspren are the same thing. They just don't have a distinctive (official) name, and so they are called what people feel like. Usually one of these: symbolspren, symbolheads or truthspren.

Though, interestingly, her personality type links through Blood (which she is shown to have a certain tendency to when she Soulcasts, ie goblet>blood) as Creative/Honest. Also the linked Herald, Shalash, clearly has a similar name to Shallan. So maybe it is this 'honesty' (although she doesn't seem honest) which attracts the truthspren, as I will now call them, to her in the first place, giving her access to Shadesmar and the Surge of Transformation in much the same way as Kaladin gains his power over the Basic, Full and Reverse Lashing Surges through Syl, an honorspren.

And perhaps the truthspren respond to truth like Syl responded to Kaladin's use of the Second Oath (honorspren>oath)?

Edited by Odium's_Shard, 03 January 2012 - 12:23 PM.

[Sunblesser]

i've thought of something that could make the case for putting nahel-bond/truthspren in the place of spiritual focus/input for the initiation of Shallans Memory ability.

when she draws, and the truthspren show up, she's not seeing them, not really; not consciously. the spren are providing the spiritual input to try to make themselves known. maybe it's the only way the know how to communicate. there's no reason why forming a nahel bond has to follow a set of rules. it could be different for every order, or even every individual. we can already see that syl and the truthspren are wildly different creatures.

anyway, the way the truthspren tie into her Memories is that they are completely faithful recollections of a moment of time; honest. what we thought cameras could do for journalism. then she recreates them in a beautiful fashion, often due to her creative choice of timing. eventually, after a long voyage of doing this with a multitude of people, not to mention flora and fauna, some truthspren couldn't help but take notice (though i think it's possible that the truthspren are originally from her father's broken soulcaster).

this is all part of forming the nahel-bond with a truthspren, imo. syl starts talking to kaladin after he's done a whack of honourable things, leading people and doing his best to protect them. shallan, thanks to her drawing, and her generally creative/honest personality (she even robbed jasnah honestly), has begun to communicate with truthspren, and will soon learn more. i wonder which kind spren jasnah bonded with.

Edited by Sunblesser, 03 January 2012 - 05:30 PM.

[Odium's_Shard]

I think that it is because of the truthspren that her recollections are perfect.
Lets say that they are always around, like, they never leave her. She is Nahel-bonded with them, say.

So, whenever she purposefully blinks, she exploits some sort of link with the truthspren (using the eyes, perhaps?) who then compose a completely truthful image of the time and store it away within the Spiritual Realm, or wherever the seat of a spren's power is. Much like a Coppermind.

In fact, this is an uncanny comparison... Sazed states that when he stores something in a Coppermind, then that information disappears from his mind until he recalls it (perfectly). I cannot remember with passing interest whether Shallan can remember the pictures that she takes until she draws them on the page, but I distinctly remember her saying that after she draws it then the image exists nowhere but the paper, and she completely forgets it.

Perhaps this is how the Memory operates? So it would go like this:


Physical>Spiritual>Cognitive
Blink>Nahel bond>Captured in her mind

or

Physical>Cognitive>Spiritual
Blink>Processes Memory>Spren store it through Nahel bond

For the capture of a Memory. For drawing, this perhaps?

Spiritual>Cognitive>Physical
Nahel bond>Recall through the bond>Draw

Feedback please?

[Aminar]

I think that it is because of the truthspren that her recollections are perfect.
Lets say that they are always around, like, they never leave her. She is Nahel-bonded with them, say.

So, whenever she purposefully blinks, she exploits some sort of link with the truthspren (using the eyes, perhaps?) who then compose a completely truthful image of the time and store it away within the Spiritual Realm, or wherever the seat of a spren's power is. Much like a Coppermind.

In fact, this is an uncanny comparison... Sazed states that when he stores something in a Coppermind, then that information disappears from his mind until he recalls it (perfectly). I cannot remember with passing interest whether Shallan can remember the pictures that she takes until she draws them on the page, but I distinctly remember her saying that after she draws it then the image exists nowhere but the paper, and she completely forgets it.

Perhaps this is how the Memory operates? So it would go like this:


Physical>Spiritual>Cognitive
Blink>Nahel bond>Captured in her mind
Makes sense to me.
I like the coppermind comparison.

or

Physical>Cognitive>Spiritual
Blink>Processes Memory>Spren store it through Nahel bond

For the capture of a Memory. For drawing, this perhaps?

Spiritual>Cognitive>Physical
Nahel bond>Recall through the bond>Draw

Feedback please?

I like it, that fits really well, especially the coppermind comparison.
I agree that she's truth bonded like Mal is honorbonded, and that goes a long way towards explaining the physical consequences of her lies. Nausea and the like.

Edited by Aminar, 04 January 2012 - 09:50 AM.

[Odium's_Shard]

I like it, that fits really well, especially the coppermind comparison.
I agree that she's truth bonded like Mal is honorbonded, and that goes a long way towards explaining the physical consequences of her lies. Nausea and the like.

She experiences nausea? That, my friend, deserves an 'internet cookie' (an upvote here)!
Do you think this is worth posting as an individual theory (the Memories theory)? With credit to yourself and Sunblesser, of course.

As well, about the nausea thing, could this be a consequence of going against a Splinter's (yes, leap of reason, spren are now Splinters in my mind, at least Nahel spren) Intent? Because if so, I like it! And this may help confirm to Chaos whether Splinters have separate (or at least sub-) Intents! Honor was shattered.. but when? Before the Radiants? If it was after them, this doesn't make sense. It would have to be before Nohadon (is that it? In Dalinar's vision), because he mention the Nahel bond explicitly.

So Kaladin feels bad when he does dishonourable things? Not that he's been doing many of those, well.. ever. This needs backing up...

[Aminar]

I'm certainly cool with having a new theory started.

And I swear I edited away that saying Mal when i typed it. Stupid Tablet. Meant Kal for Kaladin.

Edited by Aminar, 04 January 2012 - 05:06 PM.

[Odium's_Shard]

Completely overlooked the Mal>honourbonded. My apologies.

On topic, I will type that up right now.

[nikomis]

In the case of Soulcasters, wouldn't touching their device satisfy the physical part? Don't they have to wear it?

[spacemonkey]

For people using a fabrial, yes. Kabsal mentions that tapping a gem is all that is needed to activate a Soulcasting fabrial. However, it is the specific type of gem used that determines what the end result of the transformation is. Gems are probably the focus for natural Soulcasting as well, as Jasnah needed a garnet (linked with blood on the Soulcasting chart) to cure Shallan when she was poisoned, although the actual activation trigger is obviously something different.

[Windrunner]

It doesn't seem right that it takes certain gemstones to perform different types of Soulcasting if you have natural Radiant powers. Kaladin doesn't have to use a sapphire every time he lashes something. I always thought the gem type only mattered to those who were using fabrials. Is it possible the Jasnah called for a garnet only to keep up the charade that she was using a fabrial instead of natural powers?

[spacemonkey]

Well, Kaladin doesn't need gems, but he doesn't use the same surges as Jasnah. Presumably the Lashings have a different focus. And Jasnah sounded pretty desperate when she was calling for a garnet, which is the same gemstone that Shallan used when she transformed the goblet into blood. I don't think Jasnah would have let Shallan die just to maintain her cover.

[Captain.Kaulu]

Well, Kaladin doesn't need gems, but he doesn't use the same surges as Jasnah. Presumably the Lashings have a different focus. And Jasnah sounded pretty desperate when she was calling for a garnet, which is the same gemstone that Shallan used when she transformed the goblet into blood. I don't think Jasnah would have let Shallan die just to maintain her cover.

Or maybe she just thinks she needs a Garnet like the other Soulcasters, when actually she doesn't ...

... oh wait. This is Jasnah we're talking about here. There's no way she wouldn't have experimented and figured out the limits of her powers!

[spacemonkey]

Also, Jasnah says that Soulcasting fabrials were designed to mimic the natural ability that some of the Knights Radiant possessed. It makes sense that both methods would require gemstones.

[WeiryWriter]

Or maybe she just thinks she needs a Garnet like the other Soulcasters, when actually she doesn't ...

... oh wait. This is Jasnah we're talking about here. There's no way she wouldn't have experimented and figured out the limits of her powers!

I think innate Soulcasters don't need a specific gem to transform its element(?), ie a garnet for blood, but having the gem makes it easier. Jasnah has said she isn't very good at soulcasting organics so she would need an aid when soulcasting blood, an organic substance.

[spacemonkey]

Actually Jasnah said that blood was different from an organic substance like jam because it's one of the Essences.

From chapter 72:

"But you said you aren't good with organics," Shallan said. "You turned the strawberry jam into something inedible."
"Blood isn't the same," Jasnah said, waving her hand. "It's one of the Essences.You'll learn this, should I actually decide to teach you Soulcasting. For now, know that the pure form of an Essence is quite easy to make; the eight kinds of blood are easier to create than water, for instance. Creating something as complex as strawberry jam, however- a mush made from a fruit I'd never before tasted or smelled- was well beyond my abilities."

Edited by spacemonkey, 17 January 2012 - 06:12 PM.

[WeiryWriter]

Actually Jasnah said that blood was different from an organic substance like jam because it's one of the Essences.

From chapter 72:

Hmm, well I still think it is easier to soulcast an item with the applicable gem and thank you, Essence was the word I was looking for.