Issues with sex and violence?

[C. M. Hayden]

I just don't think gratuitous sex or violence is very enjoyable to read.

[Left]

On 5/8/2017 at 9:17 AM, Who Sharded? said:

If you like Black Company and Malazan, Bakker is a must.  It's the only thing I've read that compares to Malazan.  Don't get me wrong I love Stormlight Archive just as much, but Malazan and the Second Apocalypse leave me in awe of the authors' abilities.

I'd say Malazan is just slightly more graphic than Second Apocalypse.  Second  Apocalypse is more pessimistic though.

Doesn't Second Apocalypse have WAY more sexual violence though? 

[Briar King]

I'd say Bakker is the more graphic in terms of description. Malazan does have a lot of sex but it's more comedic or behind the scenes/implied sex usually. There are some direct bits for sure.

[Who Sharded?]

On 5/26/2017 at 5:44 PM, Left said:

Doesn't Second Apocalypse have WAY more sexual violence though? 

Maybe more instances, but I think the sexual violence in Dust of Dreams and Forge of Darkness is more horrifying than the stuff in Second Apocalypse.  I don't know, they're both pretty dark.

[Left]

5 hours ago, Who Sharded? said:

Maybe more instances, but I think the sexual violence in Dust of Dreams and Forge of Darkness is more horrifying than the stuff in Second Apocalypse.  I don't know, they're both pretty dark.

I've only read the first two Malazaan books and I've only heard things about Second Apocalypse, which is why I guessed Bakker's stuff was worse. I guess now I'm questioning if I really Do want to start up Malazaan again

[Ammanas]

5 hours ago, Left said:

I've only read the first two Malazaan books and I've only heard things about Second Apocalypse, which is why I guessed Bakker's stuff was worse. I guess now I'm questioning if I really Do want to start up Malazaan again

The answer is yes. Although I will be the first to admit Malazan isn't for everyone...but you should at least make it through Memories of Ice before giving up.

 

Edited May 31, 2017 by Ammanas

[Briar King]

5 hours ago, Left said:

I've only read the first two Malazaan books and I've only heard things about Second Apocalypse, which is why I guessed Bakker's stuff was worse. I guess now I'm questioning if I really Do want to start up Malazaan again

A lot of the Malazan sex is just implied. From what I remember Bakker goes into detail. Also if you don't like sex never read Richard Morgan lol. Massive detail but massive fun story.

[Orlion Blight]

3 minutes ago, Briar King said:

A lot of the Malazan sex is just implied. From what I remember Bakker goes into detail. Also if you don't like sex never read Richard Morgan lol. Massive detail but massive fun story.

Bakker is very frank in his sex description. This could be a deliberate choice to create a feeling of discomfiture or a failing of his as a writer. I am really not so sure. 

In either case, in Bakker, sexual violence is depicted as wrong. I recall one instance when Erikson plays an instance of sexual assault up for laughs. (This is not in the proper Book of the Fallen, but there are some issues in the main series as well).

[Ammanas]

6 minutes ago, Briar King said:

A lot of the Malazan sex is just implied. From what I remember Bakker goes into detail. Also if you don't like sex never read Richard Morgan lol. Massive detail but massive fun story.

That's why I am divided with Morgan's Land fit for heroes series. I love the idea of seeing the three "heroes" twenty years or so after the war the made them famous. It was fascinating seeing how the war and fame affected their lives and the consequences associated with it. But the sex scenes were just too much for me and I thought were unnecessary to go into such graphic depictions.

[Briar King]

41 minutes ago, Ammanas said:

That's why I am divided with Morgan's Land fit for heroes series. I love the idea of seeing the three "heroes" twenty years or so after the war the made them famous. It was fascinating seeing how the war and fame affected their lives and the consequences associated with it. But the sex scenes were just too much for me and I thought were unnecessary to go into such graphic depictions.

Fairly confident I know which specific scene your talking about. I only read bk 1 of that. The Kovacs 3 are practically porn and I've joked with friends upon learning that's being filmed that the only way to do it justice would be to make it an adult X film lol.  I would def reco to stay away from these if you have problems.

[Briar King]

45 minutes ago, Orlion On a Cob said:

Bakker is very frank in his sex description. This could be a deliberate choice to create a feeling of discomfiture or a failing of his as a writer. I am really not so sure. 

In either case, in Bakker, sexual violence is depicted as wrong. I recall one instance when Erikson plays an instance of sexual assault up for laughs. (This is not in the proper Book of the Fallen, but there are some issues in the main series as well).

Must be FoL? I read FoD but don't remember this, however the entire time I read it I was rage reading it.

[Orlion Blight]

9 minutes ago, Briar King said:

Must be FoL? I read FoD but don't remember this, however the entire time I read it I was rage reading it.

Haven't read FoL yet, and FoD has its whole set of problems pertinent to this thread. 

But what I am thinking of takes place in The Lees of Laughter's End.

[Briar King]

Aw ok. Never read the K&B novellas.

[Iarwainiel I]

Just found this thread. Agree that Sander-fans are awesome and can (virtually) discuss stuff like no other community can. :-)

One thing that I cannot abide, in books or film, is torture - whether people or animals. That is an absolute Full Stop, IMO.

I can handle violence better than sensuality in books/film; not sure why, but my best guess is that sex scenes feel voyeuristic to me - like I'm a "peeping tom." I don't want to have images of other people doing stuff in my mind, 3rd person - - I want any mental images on that topic to be my own experience.

Everyone should read/watch what they're comfortable with, and folks on the Shard are so helpful to steer each other toward (and away from) new books and movies that we think the other person would enjoy (or not). :-)

[Draginon]

I don't really like reading sex myself but mostly because I lean more towards the asexual area. I will smirk when the author kind of glosses over it to where you know that's what they are doing without getting explicit about it.

[Sheity Williams]

It cannot be denied there are stories purely violent or sexual. I do not enjoy those, simply because it gets boring once you've gone through the first pages or minutes. However, there are certain times when sex or violence is used for character or plot development. Not just because it's realistic and a part of our lives, but because it IS a way of making a character change, or even the plot, for better or worse. 

In addition, I've read books where torture is a vital part of character development. There are many degrees of torture. An example would be A Court of Thorns and Roses. It's not very violent, it does not rely solely on physical pain, but it's still torture, and it still changes the main character greatly. If you skip it, you'd be missing a big chunk of the story.

Personally, I believe there are certain instances where sex and violence contributes to the plot. But the thin line between contribution and mere gibberish is complicated to handle and very blurry to distinguish sometimes, since it can be left to personal interpretation. If it does contribute, I don't think anyone should skip it, simply because you're missing a point the author is trying to make. 

About the point of people trying to get away from real life... I'd say that's half true and half not. I have taken shelter inside books for years and I still have enjoyed violent and/or slightly sexual books. Because I know it's fiction. It tries to be as realistic as possible, but it's still fiction. If you cannot have that in mind when you read, let's say, dark fantasy or military, then maybe you should avoid that genre entirely, because it's bound to have the kind of content you don't like, unless someone specifically tells you 'this book doesn't have it'. 

There is also another issue on how explicit the author wishes to be with their sexual or violent content, but sometimes you can also associate this with the type of story the author wants to tell (and I mean this in those cases where this content is not just gibberish). If you read dark fantasy, you can expect explicit violence. It's not always there, but chances are high, because explicit violence contributes to the whole feeling of a story where the world is truly messed up. Again, I will repeat that it's not 100% necessary, BUT it still is a valid method for authors to use. Not all stories use the same methods and tools. 

To sum this up... I do not shy away from content like this, because I understand it may be useful and provide input about the story and characters. I do, however, tend to avoid stories where it is overused. 

 

PS: I'm new to this community so I can't say whether this one's the best or not, but so far everyone's been so nice! xD

Edited July 27, 2017 by Sheity Williams

[StrikerEZ]

4 hours ago, Sheity Williams said:

It cannot be denied there are stories purely violent or sexual. I do not enjoy those, simply because it gets boring once you've gone through the first pages or minutes. However, there are certain times when sex or violence is used for character or plot development. Not just because it's realistic and a part of our lives, but because it IS a way of making a character change, or even the plot, for better or worse. 

In addition, I've read books where torture is a vital part of character development. There are many degrees of torture. An example would be A Court of Thorns and Roses. It's not very violent, it does not rely solely on physical pain, but it's still torture, and it still changes the main character greatly. If you skip it, you'd be missing a big chunk of the story.

Personally, I believe there are certain instances where sex and violence contributes to the plot. But the thin line between contribution and mere gibberish is complicated to handle and very blurry to distinguish sometimes, since it can be left to personal interpretation. If it does contribute, I don't think anyone should skip it, simply because you're missing a point the author is trying to make. 

About the point of people trying to get away from real life... I'd say that's half true and half not. I have taken shelter inside books for years and I still have enjoyed violent and/or slightly sexual books. Because I know it's fiction. It tries to be as realistic as possible, but it's still fiction. If you cannot have that in mind when you read, let's say, dark fantasy or military, then maybe you should avoid that genre entirely, because it's bound to have the kind of content you don't like, unless someone specifically tells you 'this book doesn't have it'. 

There is also another issue on how explicit the author wishes to be with their sexual or violent content, but sometimes you can also associate this with the type of story the author wants to tell (and I mean this in those cases where this content is not just gibberish). If you read dark fantasy, you can expect explicit violence. It's not always there, but chances are high, because explicit violence contributes to the whole feeling of a story where the world is truly messed up. Again, I will repeat that it's not 100% necessary, BUT it still is a valid method for authors to use. Not all stories use the same methods and tools. 

To sum this up... I do not shy away from content like this, because I understand it may be useful and provide input about the story and characters. I do, however, tend to avoid stories where it is overused. 

 

PS: I'm new to this community so I can't say whether this one's the best or not, but so far everyone's been so nice! xD

Man, I wish I could upvote this because you made a really great point. Sadly I'm out of upvotes for today though. Good job on this post!

Also, yeah, this forum is amazing, at first, it's kind of shocking how nice everyone is here. Usually you expect there to be some mean people in basically every corner of the internet, but everyone here is so nice! It really is one of my favorite parts about this forum. 

I don't know if you've heard of it, but there is a section of the forum called Sanderson Elimination, which is basically the party game mafia but with Sanderson-based roles (such as allomancers or Radiants). In the online mafia world, we're known as the Gentleman Killers. 

Edited July 27, 2017 by StrikerEZ

[Erandeni]

On 23/7/2017 at 8:29 PM, Draginon said:

I will smirk when the author kind of glosses over it to where you know that's what they are doing without getting explicit about it.

I always liked the "boots scene" of Dragons of Winter Night, you know what they did and no need further explanation.

 

5 hours ago, Sheity Williams said:

I believe there are certain instances where sex and violence contributes to the plot

I agree, it is not something I like but if it is important to the plot or the characters and is not very explicit I am okay with it. About dark fantasy I think it is where explicit sex or violence is more justified, It help to feel how people from those worlds are really broken.

[Draginon]

7 minutes ago, Idealistic said:

I always liked the "boots scene" of Dragons of Winter Night, you know what they did and no need further explanation.

One I liked was in Peter and the Starcatchers where Peter and Molly are sneaking to the deck, pass by the captains cabin and Peter mentions how the noise inside means the captain will be occupied for a while

[the winter system]

Violence scares me and I'm only against the other one when it's straight (because it's boring and not relatable to me) or when it's gratuitous.