Devotion, Dominion, and Magic on Sel

[KChan]

Listen to us develop this theory live, in real-time, in the first episode of the Shardkeepers Podcast! [A link will go here when it's available. For now, use your imagination.]

 

So, while recording the Shardkeepers Podcast, I was hit with a sudden lightbulb about magic on Sel. A lot of credit goes to Chaos here, since talking about his theory is what caused me to think of it this way, so a big shoutout to him. Anyways, I think I've figured out a feasible way to explain what's going on on Sel, and specifically, what's up with these "region-locked" magics, so to speak.

 

First, we need to take a good look at the nature of the Shards on Sel. For that, I want to turn to the dictionary definitions of their names, so I went ahead and grabbed them from dictionary.com. You can see them right here:

 

de·vo·tion  [dih-voh-shuhn] 

 

noun

1.

profound dedication; consecration.

2.

earnest attachment to a cause, person, etc.

3.

an assignment or appropriation to any purpose, cause, etc.: the devotion of one's wealth and time toscientific advancement.

4.

Often, devotions. Ecclesiastical . religious observance or worship; a form of prayer or worship forspecial use.

 

do·min·ion  [duh-min-yuhn] 

 

noun

1.

the power or right of governing and controlling; sovereign authority.

2.

rule; control; domination.

3.

a territory, usually of considerable size, in which a single rulership holds sway.

4.

lands or domains subject to sovereignty or control.

5.

Government . a territory constituting a self-governing commonwealth and being one of a number ofsuch territories united in a community of nations, or empire: formerly applied to self-governingdivisions of the British Empire, as Canada and New Zealand.

 

 

For Devotion, my interpretation of current theorizing trends is that we tend to focus on the first two definitions primarily, but I want to invite you guys to make sure and include the third as a possible interpretation.

 

Devotion, however, is pretty straightforward. Meanwhile, Dominion -- well, Dominion is interesting. I've read a lot of things associating Dominion with Definition #2 - control, domination - probably in part by whom we tend to associate with that particular Shard. However, I'm beginning to think that we're not looking at Dominion in the right light. I think we need to view Dominion primarily as it is portrayed in Definition #3 (though #1 and #4 are pretty applicable as well, so include those if you like).

 

Bearing with me so far? Okay? Good.

 

Okay. So. We've got Devotion, which like I said before, is pretty self-explanatory and not that hard to expand a definition on. We've also got Dominion, thinking of it in the sense of a territory or domain instead of the commonly perceived role of domination. That covers the nature of the two Shards we're dealing with here. In order to continue, let's talk about what we know about the Dor.

 

First, I have a quote from Brandon on our very own forum Q&A. I pulled this from Windy's archive, which is much easier to sort through than the actual thread, so I can't link to the exact post, but I'll offer free rep to anyone who can find it for me. Anyways, here's the quote:

 

Windrunner:

Is the Dor made up of both Devotion and Dominion’s power?

 

Brandon:

The Dor's nature, and why it acts as it does, is in part related to this question.

 

 

So. This is interesting. Obviously a lot hinges on this, but for the sake of this theory, I will be operating under the assumption that yes, the Dor is powered by both of them. Moving on to this reddit post (formatting mine):

 

Why does Scadrial, which has two Shards, only have three manifestations of investiture, (Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy) but Sel, also with two Shards, has five manifestations of investiture (AonDor, Dakhor, ChayShan, Forgery, and Bloodsealing)?

 Sel's magics are much more regionalized than Scadrial's. Each area has its own manifestation, but they're all actually the same magic. So really there is one magic on Sel--much as Windrunning and Lightweaving on Roshar are kind of different magics, but also kind of the same.

 

 

Okay. So. Pretty self explanatory here; I don't need to expand on it any more. Moving on to the next post:

 

In The Emperor's Soul and Elantris the magic systems have very different methods and powers, though both work through symbols. Assuming they adapted the symbols to their local geography could they use each other's methods? Could an Elantrian forge a soulstamp say?

Birth in a certain location on Sel gives a certain affinity for the local symbols, and their usage. To use the magic of another region, one would need to have a rewritten connection to that area instead.

 

 

Interesting. We've seen the bit about being born in a particular region on Sel before, very clearly spelled out in Elantris, but the idea of rewriting a connection is new. That, however, is for a different theory. Right now, I want to focus on that affinity. What is it, exactly? The answer, I believe, lies in this post (emphasis/formatting mine):

 

If Odium were lured to Scadrial, would his physical body turn into a burnable metal?

The difficulty here is, again, one of Identity. People born on Scadrial have an Identity tied to it and its magic. Odium would have to do certain things to make them able to use a magic he fuels. He has done these things on Roshar, so it's not impossible for him to manage it on Scadrial.

 

 

Okay, so obviously we're not dealing with Odium or Scadrial here, but look at that italicized sentence again. "People born on Scadrial have an Identity tied to it and its magic." Note the capital I here. Is the Identity of the people of Scadrial that ties them to its magic in particular the same as the affinity that ties people on Sel to their local region's magic? It certainly seems that way.

 

So, how are we looking so far? To sum it up, here's what we have so far:

1. The Dor is (assumedly) fueled by both Devotion (presumed to be: dedication, attachment, assignment) and Dominion (presumed to be: domain, territory, nation).
2. All regional magics on Sel are different manifestations of what is, essentially, the same magic.
3. Everyone on Sel is born with an affinity for their region's magic. This affinity, for the sake of this theory, is assumed to be Identity.

Now, I'm sure a lot of you already know where I'm going with this. Sel is a very special instance of magic in the Cosmere: not only are the magics region-based, everything seems to arrange very neatly along cultural and political borders. Why is this? What separates these region-based magics from one another, and what causes this almost-too-tidy separation?

 

The answer, I believe, is the Shards themselves, Dominion and Devotion, and how they interact with the Identity of the people of Sel.

 

This is where my interpretation of the name Dominion is key. Look at the people in our own world. If you were born and raised in America, you tend to view yourself as American. Those from England tend to think of themselves as being English. Sure, we're all citizens of Planet Earth, but when asked what country we're from, we're probably not going to tell people that we're Earthlings. We're going to say English, American, Australian, Canadian, whatever.

 

Now, apply that to the people of Sel. Here we have the Arelish, the Jindo, the MaiPon, and all the rest. All of the peoples on Sel have their own cultural and national Identity, and why shouldn't they? It's a perfectly normal thing to do.

 

The Emperor's Soul taught us a lot about how Identity works. How we view ourselves has a huge impact on who and what we are, and on a very fundamental level at that. Particularly in a setting where Identity has profound cosmological implications, is it really so hard to believe that it would affect the manifestation of a magic system powered by Shards named Dominion and Devotion?

 

And so you have this vast array of magics, each varying manifestations of the same magic, each tied to a certain part of the world. A culture, a way of life, a country. A Dominion. What would the citizens of a country usually feel towards their people, their way of life? Some measure of loyalty, patriotism, or maybe just an association with their cultural identity and who they are. Devotion, so to speak.

 

Of course, we have the unusual cases. Those living close to the Arelish border have sometimes been taken by the Shaod, but that's really not so strange when you come to think of it. Living on the border between two nations, it is only natural for some people to associate somewhat with both of them. Galladon, despite being a Dula, spent much of his life in Elantris, quite possibly giving him the Identity needed to be chosen by the Shaod. The Jindoeese have a very strong cultural Identity, giving them a tie to their region's magic no matter where they live. To sum it up in a very cheesy way, the magic you have access to if you're from Sel depends on which Dominion to which you owe your Devotion.

 

And that, my friends, is how I propose magic on Sel works.

[Shivertongue]

I like it.

 

Now, you know me. I'm not big on theories. It says so in my signature, after all. But the absence of math and high-level physics kept me reading, and it feels very well-thought out. I have long been a proponent of the idea that people were considering Dominion in the wrong light - there doesn't need to be a 'good shard' and a 'bad shard' (and really, I don't think there is such a thing). I have my own theory on how Dominion and Devotion interacted in a different way, but that's a tangent I'm not going to go on right now.

 

Anyway, I like this idea because it feels very cohesive. But even more so, I really like the implication that magic on Sel comes from a mix of Dominion and Devotion, rather than one or the other. It's a fresh take that I'd been thinking of myself, but you actually put in the effort to gather information and stuff to back it up.

 

If I espoused theories, I'd consider espousing this one. This theory gets the approval of the High Anti-Theorist.

 

[KChan]

That has got to be one of the best things I have ever seen. And also a huge compliment.  So thank you, High Anti-Theorist, for your words of praise! It really means a lot to me that it interested a non-theory person enough to keep reading, and also that you went to all the trouble to make that awesome stamp. I enjoy seeing it there in its place of honor in the thread.

 

Also, it totally needs to be an award when we get the award system back.

[Senor Feesh]

This. All of this. I have no words.

 

This thread is made of win. This also neatly ties in with Dominion and Devotion being shattered and mixed together, as the interplay of the intents directly influences the magic system(s).

 

Edit: Unrelated, but Shiv, are you by any chance a WH:40K fan?

Edited April 29, 2013 by Senor Feesh

[+HoidIsAwesome]

Its a very well thought out theory which makes very good sense. I'm wondering if something similar could be applied on Roshar...

[KChan]

Thanks, guys! I'm really glad you like it.

 

As for something similar happening on Roshar, I'm not certain that it would. Remember, the key elements here are the Shards Devotion and Dominion, which are the core reason behind this theory in the first place. Honor and Cultivation? I don't think that their Intents really line up with a magic system that aligns itself along regional borders.

[+HoidIsAwesome]

I agree. Just me idly speculating that's all.

Also I didn't mean the regional system. I meant the idea of the shattered shards both contributing to a magic system.

Might give us an idea of whether Cultivation still lives...

[KChan]

Ah. I must have misread you then. Anyways, there's a quote somewhere that states that some spren are of Cultivation, some are of Honor, and some are of both. And Brandon just said in a recent q&a that spren function as sort of a release valve for all of the energy that would otherwise be building up from having a Shard sitting around that no one is currently holding, which is actually what the Seons and Skaze are doing on Sel. There seem to be a lot of parallels lining up here between the two worlds and how they're acting. So if we're talking about mingling, I think the idea has potential.

Edited April 29, 2013 by KChan

[+HoidIsAwesome]

Ah. I must have misread you then. Anyways, there's a quote somewhere that states that some spren are of Cultivation, some are of Honor, and some are of both. And Brandon just said in a recent q&a that spren function as sort of a release valve for all of the energy that would otherwise be building up from having a Shard sitting around that no one is currently holding. So if we're talking about mingling, I think the idea has potential.

Just rereading my first post I don't think I made very clear what I meant.

Interesting info about the spren though. I vaguely remember hearing about it from somewhere but forgot about it. The Sanderson q&a is also extremely informative for building a theory.

[KChan]

It really is. Also, way to go me, writing about spren and then not writing the rest of where I was going with that thought. Champion theorywork, that. Anyways, I fixed it now, so you can actually read what I was getting at.

[Isomere]

Check this quote about Seons from a Q&A. 

 

Mi’chelle: I know that you’ve answered this before, but we don’t have citation yet. Was the earthquake caused by Odium’s visit to Elantris? You’ve answered that one before, I believe.

I don’t know if I have. I think I’ve given implications without a strict, direct answer on that one.

Mi’chelle: And what are the implications, so I can know if I’m thinking of the right answer?

What do you think I’ve said?

Mi’chelle: I think you’ve said, no it isn’t.

The Seons existed before the earthquake.

Mi’chelle: But was the earthquake caused by Odium?

When Odium visited there were no Seons. 

Josh: Okay.

Mi’chelle: But that doesn’t answer the question about the earthquake, so that’s interesting to note.

See what I’m saying?

 

Found here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=search&fromMainBar=1

 

This is a very confusing quote, and very Aes Sedai. For Brandon, there is a connection between Seons, Odium, Earthquakes, and Splintering. Since the Seons were around before the Odium came, I'm thinking the two shards merged before Odium came as well, but it's hard to know. 

 

Correlating to Roshar is also interesting. My very unorthodox views on this aside, there seems to be some type of mingling of the energies happening on both Planets, and this could be explained by the the Shards merging either before or because of the Shattering.

[Senor Feesh]

Since the Seons were around before the Odium came,

 

I think you're misreading the quote.

 

The Seons existed before the earthquake.

and

When Odium visited there were no Seons. 

 

To me, this says the order of events was

 

Odium visits Sel, shattering Devotion and Dominon --->  The Seons are created --->  The Earthquake reshapes Arelon, temporarily making Aons non-functional, until the events of Elantris.

 

[KChan]

Actually, from that quote, the order of events seems pretty clear:

1. No Seons, no Odium.
2. Odium shows up.
3. Seons appear.
4. (Odium leaves maybe? We don't know)
5. The earthquake that caused the Reod

So the Shards were Splintered (not Shattered, Splintered - yes there is a difference) before the earthquake, and there's another quote somewhere that states that the magic on Sel worked slightly differently afterward. This seems to me to be a correlation between the Splintering, and the mingling of Shards. There has been no evidence to support the merging of whole Shards without a Shardholder to focus their powers and use them together (IE: what happened with Harmony). However, Splinters, being smaller fragments, would in theory mingle more easily. Chaos talked about this during Shardkeepers, so you can hear more then.

 

That said, I'm of the mindset that Devotion and Dominion powered Selish magic together even before they Splintered. However, I see no reason why the potential intermingling of Splinters has to be ruled out here. If it happened, I would think that it just caused the magic to become even more regionalized than it already was.

 

Aaaaand I was ninja'd.  +1 to Mr. Feesh

[Senor Feesh]

Haha thanks KChan I can't believe I wrote shattered instead of Splintered, I'm usually so anal about terminology...

 

Also, I wasn't aware that magic worked differently post-splintering. Whilst I agree we don't have enough evidence to rule out Dominion and Devotion creating a merged magic system pre-splintering, my gut wants me to believe that the magic was region-free before.

 

But then, if that was the case, the forms of the Aons (and the base MaiPon form of Soulstamps) are hard to account for... so my guts are probably wrong

[KChan]

What we speculated on Shardcast is that the magics were still region-based, but that perhaps the penalties for using magic outside its particular region weren't quite so severe. So Aons would be more effective farther from Elantris than they are now, etc. This is pure speculation on our part, but we think it's pretty logical. Given the name Dominion and the base form of the different magics, it seems that the magics were always at least somewhat region-based.

[lordofsoup]

It seems to me that while genetically the way you access the Dor is region locked, Aons are the only source of magic that is limited by distance to that specific region.  Am I missing something here?

[Phantom Monstrosity]

It seems to me that while genetically the way you access the Dor is region locked, Aons are the only source of magic that is limited by distance to that specific region.  Am I missing something here?

Forging wouldn't work outside MaiPon, IIRC. Edited April 30, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[lordofsoup]

Forging wouldn't work outside MaiPon, IIRC.

 

Really?  I guess I didnt understand the size of the regions then.  Ty

[Isomere]

I think you're misreading the quote. To me, this says the order of events was Odium visits Sel, shattering Devotion and Dominon --->  The Seons are created --->  The Earthquake reshapes Arelon, temporarily making Aons non-functional, until the events of Elantris.

I totally missed that interpretation, and it's fully consistent with the quote.

 

I thought it meant the Seons existed before Odium came, when He came he disrupted the Seons, then after he left they came back into form. This interpretation implies the earthquake was related the loss of Seons during Odium's visit. 

 

Both seem to work to explain the quote, and I'll be interested to learn more. Seems more linearly consistent the way you and KChan are reading it. 

[Chaos]

This theory is great. I wrote a theory on Devotion and Dominion's convergence into the Dor here that references this idea a lot.

 

What we speculated on Shardcast is that the magics were still region-based, but that perhaps the penalties for using magic outside its particular region weren't quite so severe. So Aons would be more effective farther from Elantris than they are now, etc. This is pure speculation on our part, but we think it's pretty logical. Given the name Dominion and the base form of the different magics, it seems that the magics were always at least somewhat region-based.

 

I personally maintain believe that Selish magics were not regionalized prior to Devotion and Dominion's Splintering, and that magic interactions would operate more like Scadrial, with only three magic systems, I think. My theory above explains why I think the Splintering would cause the change to regionalized magic (which is this theory's primary domain). But it isn't exactly important theoretically for either of our stuff; both are possible. It's impossible to say at this point.

 

Forging wouldn't work outside MaiPon, IIRC.

 

This is not true, I think you read something incorrectly somewhere. Forgery's power does diminish with distance, but obviously the Imperial Seat is not in MaiPon.

Additionally, Dakhor monks aren't exactly pushovers in Teod.

[Leuthie]

Aons work for those who can use them everywhere. They work stronger near Elantris because Elantris is a focus/ amplifier for AonDor.

Regionality applies to WHO can use a magic, not where it can be used.

At least, that's how I understand it all.

[Windrunner]

That was what we thought the case was until recently, but Brandon confirmed that Forgeries would be less effective the further you are from MaiPon. So I think it's not unreasonable to believe they all get weaker the further you get from your native land.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

This is not true, I think you read something incorrectly somewhere. Forgery's power does diminish with distance, but obviously the Imperial Seat is not in MaiPon.

Yeah that was misphrased, I meant 'work as well', not 'work period'.

[askthepaperclip]

To the OP, DUH. (I think that is the hallmark of a good theory...it seems so obvious once it is spelled out. Well done!)

[Kurkistan]

I know I'm a bit late to the party, but I'm working through my backlog of "I should really read these theories" threads. I have to say that I like this theory quite a lot.

 

So far as the distance question goes, there is a certain point where things just stop working. We have this quote:

 

Me: Aons look like Arelon; soulstamps look like MaiPon. Aons get weaker when you get further from Arelon, right? That's not just cause Elantris acts like a focus?
BS: That's right, it's based on distance. That's why there are no stamped objects in Elantris.
Me: So do soulstamps get weaker further from MaiPon? If you left Sel via Shadesmar and went to another planet, would the soulstamp stop working?
BS: That's correct.
Me: Could soulstamps be carved that used Arelon as a base form instead of MaiPon?
BS: That's very interesting, isn't it?

 

The first answer could be saying either that stamps grow prohibitively weak or that they stop working altogether, while the second is more definitive, at least at interstellar distances. Given that the second question/answer was framed as a clarification, I'm tempted to think that Forgeries just flat-out wouldn't work in Elantris.

 

The last "that's very interesting, isn't it?" is disturbing to me in regards to KChan's theory, actually. I've been taking this as a de-facto "yes" for awhile now, but such an answer might undermine both KChan's theory. As a way to get around this (other than simply dismissing my assumption that Brandon was sneakily saying "yes"), I would suggest a slight alteration to KChan's theory.

 

How about 2 levels of magic for each "Dominion"? On the one hand, you have the manifestation of this singular "magic" as a multitude of systems, each unique to a region: Bloodsealing, Forgery, AonDor, etc. This part is locked down by Identity, as the OP posits.

 

On the other hand, though, you have a second consideration: where the raw power is coming from. A Forger can never practice AonDor, then, but they could use Aon Aon as their "setting stamp" and draw their power from Arelon. That power manifests as Forgery because of the Dominion that determined the Identity of the user it's being filtered through, but needn't be dragged all the way from poor MaiPon first. This is somewhat in line with my original "region-locking" thread.

 

As a side note, I'm curious as to how you explain citizens of the Rose Empire being able to use Forgery, if its base (and thus the Identity of its users) seems to be based in MaiPon. Could Forgery be a multi-region magic?

 

[...]There has been no evidence to support the merging of whole Shards without a Shardholder to focus their powers and use them together (IE: what happened with Harmony). However, Splinters, being smaller fragments, would in theory mingle more easily. Chaos talked about this during Shardkeepers, so you can hear more then.

 

That said, I'm of the mindset that Devotion and Dominion powered Selish magic together even before they Splintered. However, I see no reason why the potential intermingling of Splinters has to be ruled out here. If it happened, I would think that it just caused the magic to become even more regionalized than it already was.

 

Aaaaand I was ninja'd.  +1 to Mr. Feesh

 

Incidentally, I also think the two D's probably cooperated and/or pooled their power before Odium came. Ruin and Preservation were capable of working together as (essentially) one power, they just "hated" each other.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Kurkistan