Theory: Adonalsium cannot be put back together again

[WeiryWriter]

So a prevailing belief at the moment is that Hoid is endeavoring to reform Adonalsium.  With the recent revelation about the nature of Harmony, which I will be discussing further down, I no longer believe that reforming Adonalsium is possible.  At least not in the way we are thinking.
 
Hoid muses about taking things apart and putting them back together again when talking to Dalinar in Way of Kings.

 

“I know,” Wit said, then looked directly at him.  “Adonalsium.”
Dalinar frowned more deeply.  “What?”
Wit searched his face.  “Have you ever heard the term, Dalinar?”
“Ado… what?”
“Nothing,” Wit said.  He seemed preoccupied, unlike his usual self.  “Nonsense.  Balderdash.  Figgldygrak.  Isn’t it odd that gibberish words are often the sounds of other words, cut up and dismembered, then stitched into something like them—yet wholly unlike them at the same time?”
Dalinar frowned.
“I wonder if you could do that to a man.  Pull him apart, emotion by emotion, bit by bit, bloody chunk by bloody chunk.  Then combine them back together into something else, like a Dysian Aimian.  If you do put a man together like that, Dalinar, be sure to name him Gibberish, after me.  Or perhaps Gibletish.”

 

This is the quote a lot of people have been thinking supports the idea that Hoid is trying to put Adonalsium together again. The line “into something like them—yet wholly unlike them at the same time” has led some people, and now myself, to question whether reuniting all of the Shards would recreate Adonalsium. In this theory I will be arguing the negative, bringing the Shards together will not remake Adonalsium. (in a potentially roundabout way that may make absolutely no sense)

For the purposes of this thread I will be referring to Adonalsium as if it was a sheet of glass as a nod to the Shardic Lens theory.

So, originally there was an unbroken pane of glass through which the power of creation shone. Then for some reason it shattered, creating sixteen Shards. Each has a different intent that filters the light that shines through them, kind of like a distinct color.

At the tail end of AMA Brandon answered this question:

 

Thanatos17901

Thanks so much for all your writing, Way of Kings is the best book I've read in the last decade.

Mistborn Spoilers: If Sazed were to die, would he drop the Shards Ruin and Preservation or would he drop the Shard Harmony?

*Edited for format, then edited again to tell you about it

mistborn

Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)

 

This quote has blown the minds of a fair number of people, including mine. Before I get to the point I am making, I want to add another quote that shows that even though Harmony is the Shard, Ruin and Preservation still exist.

 

Question
Were Ruin and Preservation two shards or one?
Brandon Sanderson
They were two shards. Harmony is considered a shard, although it’s really two, in the same way that a king of two countries would still be considered a king.

 

It is my opinion that Ruin and Preservation have become cognitively linked, they have begun to see themselves as part of a greater whole, Harmony. Like Shai describes in the following quote.

 

The longer an object exists as a whole, and the longer it is seen in that state, the stronger its sense of complete identity becomes. That table is made up of various pieces of wood fitted together, but do we think of it that way? No. We see the whole.”

 

So what’s my point? The two pieces of glass that are Ruin and Preservation haven’t come together and made a larger piece of glass. They’ve just been soldered together.

If that is true for these two Shards I can’t see any reason why having all sixteen would make any difference. Rather than making the pristine sheet of glass that was Adonalsium, they would instead make a stained-glass window.

Hopefully this makes since to someone other than myself.

Quotes in order of appearance

-Way of Kings: Chapter 54
-2013 Reddit AMA
-Nov 21 2011 Alloy of Law Signing Report - Lord Juss
-The Emperor's Soul: Day Twelve

 

 

 

Edit: This section is based in part on Chaos’ Devotion, Dominion, and Convergence Theory.

 

In his theory Chaos describes the concept of “fragments” of shards and differentiates them from Splinters.  In regards to my stained-glass metaphor they would both be pieces of glass from their respective Shard but are differentiated by their clarity.  Splinters would have the same clarity as the parent Shard while fragments would have be more like frosted glass, transmitting the light in a more diffuse manner.

 

 What makes one frosted while the other is clear you’re asking?  In my opinion it has to do with the relative strength, for lack of a better term, of their cognitive aspect.  The “strength” of the cognitive aspect has to do with its ability to think for itself, a person has a stronger cognitive aspect than a rock for example.  But wait!  Splinters aren’t sentient.  No they are not, but all of the splinters we have seen are attached to something that does have a strong cognitive aspect (i.e. the Returned and the Seons).  A strong cognitive aspect helps to focus, and control, the light that is coming through the glass. 

 

It is important to remember though that these fragments still have a cognitive aspect to them, not a very strong one, but it is there and helping with the “convergence,” as Chaos put it, of the two shards.  In my opinion the history, or rather memories, of an object are a part of its cognitive aspect (supported by the fact that feruchemical copper is a cognitive metal).  These fragments can remember being part of something larger and want to be a part of it again (like the wall Shai forged to be painted wanted to be beautiful).  It actually has memories of being a part of two things, its respective shard and adonalsium.  So if a fragment of Devotion met up with a fragment of Dominion it would be like “You’re different from me but we used to be together so let’s hang out.”

 

It is somewhat similar to Ruin and Preservation but in their case they have Sazed and the people of Scadrial to help for a cognitive leading for the pieces of glass.

Edited April 30, 2013 by WeiryWriter

[Senor Feesh]

I get where you're coming from, but suggest,an alternative theory. Rather than creating a patchwork of the window, what if the time spent together has actually caused the glass to melt and merge? They become more inextricably linked then. Theoretically possible to separate, but not easily done. This would also create a window very different from the original.

For the record, I actually find your idea more plausible and intuitive, given the example of the table which is still obviously constructed from different components, and the above quote stating that harmony is still, in fact, two shards.

[Isomere]

Very strong reasoning, and I support it. Adonalsium cannot be recreated. His intellect and physical aspects were totally destroyed and can never be restored.

 

However, the spiritual form of Adonalsium cannot be changed at all. It is static and represents the IDEAL. What you can do is split the various parts of ideal, and these aspects can behave in ways that are not ideal at all. I think if all the bits of investiture in the Cosmere were gathered together in one place they would form a perfect IDEAL LENS. When an Intellect picked it up, the powers of this God would be exactly the same as those of Adonalsium, and the light would shine through in pure form. But the Intellect would interact with the power very differently and the light would form something totally new. My concern is the 17th Sharders are trying to insert something foreign into this picture and I'm worried about the results.

[TheOneKEA]

I really like this theory and I think it is very plausible.

One additional point to add has to do with my own theory regarding Harmony's power - I personally believe that Sazed's informed choice to use the two Shards together, as if they were a single unified Shard, was what ultimately brought about the merging/combining of the two. It stands to reason, then, that if an entity with a cognitive aspect were to successfully take all of the Shards but choose not to wield them as a unified entity, the Shards would remain separate and their Intents would destroy the holder.

[Chaos]

A very well thought out theory. I like it a lot. However, Senor Feesh does have an excellent counterpoint, so I can't espouse it quite yet. Upvotes to both of you though

[Vortaan]

I agree with the sentiment, except I don't believe there was ever a Physical or Cognitive aspect to Adonalsium. Sazed kind of hints at that when he mentions that he doesn't think Preservation or Ruin originally had personalities attached to them. Maybe a factor in the Shattering period was a Physical/Cognitive aspect being attached to the Spiritual aspect, but I'm somewhat on the fence about that. 

[WeiryWriter]

Oh wow, thanks everyone for responding!

 

I get where you're coming from, but suggest,an alternative theory. Rather than creating a patchwork of the window, what if the time spent together has actually caused the glass to melt and merge? They become more inextricably linked then. Theoretically possible to separate, but not easily done. This would also create a window very different from the original.

For the record, I actually find your idea more plausible and intuitive, given the example of the table which is still obviously constructed from different components, and the above quote stating that harmony is still, in fact, two shards.

 

The only argument against your counter-proposal that I can think of at the moment deals with the semantics of the problem.  If the two pieces of glass melt and merge then, in my opinion, they lose their distinctiveness.  There isn't a definitive line where one would end and the other begin.  Also I also  can't see how they could be separated and become the exact same as were before, granted my knowledge of glasswork is limited, but it just doesn't seem possible to me.

 

Thank you for the argument, I will try to think of a better argument.

 

I really like this theory and I think it is very plausible.

One additional point to add has to do with my own theory regarding Harmony's power - I personally believe that Sazed's informed choice to use the two Shards together, as if they were a single unified Shard, was what ultimately brought about the merging/combining of the two. It stands to reason, then, that if an entity with a cognitive aspect were to successfully take all of the Shards but choose not to wield them as a unified entity, the Shards would remain separate and their Intents would destroy the holder.

 

Oh most definitely.  I also think having at least half a planet's worth of people aware of his existence helped.  However Sazed's actions were probably the deciding factor.

 

Very strong reasoning, and I support it. Adonalsium cannot be recreated. His intellect and physical aspects were totally destroyed and can never be restored.

 

However, the spiritual form of Adonalsium cannot be changed at all. It is static and represents the IDEAL. What you can do is split the various parts of ideal, and these aspects can behave in ways that are not ideal at all. I think if all the bits of investiture in the Cosmere were gathered together in one place they would form a perfect IDEAL LENS. When an Intellect picked it up, the powers of this God would be exactly the same as those of Adonalsium, and the light would shine through in pure form. But the Intellect would interact with the power very differently and the light would form something totally new. My concern is the 17th Sharders are trying to insert something foreign into this picture and I'm worried about the results.

I agree with the sentiment, except I don't believe there was ever a Physical or Cognitive aspect to Adonalsium. Sazed kind of hints at that when he mentions that he doesn't think Preservation or Ruin originally had personalities attached to them. Maybe a factor in the Shattering period was a Physical/Cognitive aspect being attached to the Spiritual aspect, but I'm somewhat on the fence about that.

 

This is all plausible, but it runs into the problem I had when writing this theory.  We simply don't know very much about the nature of Adonalsium and that makes it incredibly difficult to theorize about.  I had to make certain assumptions, such as the intents of the Shards only appearing after the Shattering, but I tried not to not be very specific about what Adonalsium was like.  I almost didn't post this theory because of that...

 

A very well thought out theory. I like it a lot. However, Senor Feesh does have an excellent counterpoint, so I can't espouse it quite yet. Upvotes to both of you though

 

I'm glad that you liked it.  Like I said above I will try to think of a good rebuttal for his counter-proposal.  Thanks for the upvote!

[PhilV]

The only argument against your counter-proposal that I can think of at the moment deals with the semantics of the problem.  If the two pieces of glass melt and merge then, in my opinion, they lose their distinctiveness.  There isn't a definitive line where one would end and the other begin.  Also I also  can't see how they could be separated and become the exact same as were before, granted my knowledge of glasswork is limited, but it just doesn't seem possible to me.

 

If you think microscopically (and add god-like powers), it would be possible to pull the merged piece of glass apart and remake the two original pieces, atom-by-atom.

[Dros]

Honestly, my understanding about Hoid's question to Dalinar was that he is struggling with the very same issues you are in this topic. For your analogy: If all sixteen shards are combined does it become a stained glass masterpiece like the one before -or- would it become a hideous mass of twisted glass and intermingling colors that resembles nothing of the original window -or- could you make it into something else more to your liking, i.e. could you control what the resulting intent of the supershard you create would be?

Edited April 25, 2013 by Dros

[happyman]

Honestly, my understanding about Hoid's question to Dalinar was that he is struggling with the very same issues you are in this topic. For your analogy: If all sixteen shards are combined does it become a stained glass masterpiece like the one before -or- would it become a hideous mass of twisted glass and intermingling colors that resembles nothing of the original window -or- could you make it into something else more to your liking, i.e. could you control what the resulting intent of the supershard you create would be?

 

Dros is upvoted for asking the right questions.

[WeiryWriter]

If you think microscopically (and add god-like powers), it would be possible to pull the merged piece of glass apart and remake the two original pieces, atom-by-atom.

 

I wanted to keep my metaphor as non-magical as I could so I was only thinking about more mundane methods.  Of course now I feel kind of dense for not thinking of something as obvious as that...  My bad.

 

That said I don't think Ruin and Preservation have been merged to such an extent as to make that necessary.  If their very atoms have mixed then they would be one piece of glass, not two.

 

Honestly, my understanding about Hoid's question to Dalinar was that he is struggling with the very same issues you are in this topic. For your analogy: If all sixteen shards are combined does it become a stained glass masterpiece like the one before -or- would it become a hideous mass of twisted glass and intermingling colors that resembles nothing of the original window -or- could you make it into something else more to your liking, i.e. could you control what the resulting intent of the supershard you create would be?

 

For this theory I've been operating under the assumption that the intents of the shards did not exist until during/after the Shattering.  The original window would not have been a stained-glass one, it would be like the Wide Window from A Series of Unfortunate Events.  Clear and continuous, i.e. it is not made up of smaller pieces of glass.  The color, which represents the intents, only developed after the window was broken.  A reforming of the Shards would create a window as beautiful as the previous just not the same kind of window.

 

Hopefully that answers your question, if not let me know and I will try to explain better.

[KChan]

This is a very well-thought-out theory, so props to you, Weiry. I think your theory is quite plausible.

That said, I don't think the two schools of thought are inherently mutually exclusive. Take your analogy of the stained glass window: the pieces are united into a whole, just not the way they once were. In the end, the difference is in what form the finished product will take: the stained glass window, or the pristine sheet of glass.

Yes, Ruin and Preservation have intermingled, but that didn't happen instantly. It's been centuries in Cosmere Time since Sazed took them up, and we have no idea how long it took for them to reach their quasi-fused state, nor do we know if they're finished with the process or still undergoing it.

Therefore, I believe that if someone were to take up all sixteen Shards, the initial result would be the stained glass window. However, over time, and potentially depending on the individual who took them up in the first place, we might wind up with the sheet of glass. It would just take a while, to say the least.

[Dros]

I wanted to keep my metaphor as non-magical as I could so I was only thinking about more mundane methods.  Of course now I feel kind of dense for not thinking of something as obvious as that...  My bad.

 

That said I don't think Ruin and Preservation have been merged to such an extent as to make that necessary.  If their very atoms have mixed then they would be one piece of glass, not two.

 

 

For this theory I've been operating under the assumption that the intents of the shards did not exist until during/after the Shattering.  The original window would not have been a stained-glass one, it would be like the Wide Window from A Series of Unfortunate Events.  Clear and continuous, i.e. it is not made up of smaller pieces of glass.  The color, which represents the intents, only developed after the window was broken.  A reforming of the Shards would create a window as beautiful as the previous just not the same kind of window.

 

Hopefully that answers your question, if not let me know and I will try to explain better.

 

Definitely. I like that line of thought.

 

I think between your theory and KChan's thoughts on it, the truth is probably not far off.

[WeiryWriter]

This is a very well-thought-out theory, so props to you, Weiry. I think your theory is quite plausible.

That said, I don't think the two schools of thought are inherently mutually exclusive. Take your analogy of the stained glass window: the pieces are united into a whole, just not the way they once were. In the end, the difference is in what form the finished product will take: the stained glass window, or the pristine sheet of glass.

Yes, Ruin and Preservation have intermingled, but that didn't happen instantly. It's been centuries in Cosmere Time since Sazed took them up, and we have no idea how long it took for them to reach their quasi-fused state, nor do we know if they're finished with the process or still undergoing it.

Therefore, I believe that if someone were to take up all sixteen Shards, the initial result would be the stained glass window. However, over time, and potentially depending on the individual who took them up in the first place, we might wind up with the sheet of glass. It would just take a while, to say the least.

 

Thank you.

 

Part of me is, admittedly, resistant to the idea that the stained-glass window will, given enough time, merge back into the pristine window.  Though then the sane, logical majority chimes in with "It's a magic window" so I am definitely becoming open to the idea.

 

It would probably be worth asking Brandon the following question: If Sazed hold onto Harmony for long enough will Ruin and Preservation merge to a point where they lose their distinctiveness and can no longer be separated no matter what?

[KChan]

Part of me is, admittedly, resistant to the idea that the stained-glass window will, given enough time, merge back into the pristine window.  Though then the sane, logical majority chimes in with "It's a magic window" so I am definitely becoming open to the idea.

Exactly why I qualified my statement by saying it might happen. Your theory is valid either way, as it seems unlikely at this point that taking up all sixteen Shards would instantly give us Adonalsium back exactly the same as it was before. Whether we get the magic sheet of glass back after a few millenia or not, the logic that got you to this point is still sound, which is one of my favorite parts about this theory.

 

It would probably be worth asking Brandon the following question: If Sazed hold onto Harmony for long enough will Ruin and Preservation merge to a point where they lose their distinctiveness and can no longer be separated no matter what?

My thoughts exactly. Anyone going to any of the upcoming signings?

[Windrunner]

If no one else asks him this before SpoCon, I will. It's certainly an interesting question.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

It would probably be worth asking Brandon the following question: If Sazed hold onto Harmony for long enough will Ruin and Preservation merge to a point where they lose their distinctiveness and can no longer be separated no matter what?

'no matter what' is probably a bad question. I don't see any reason why it couldn't be shattered again.

[WeiryWriter]

My thoughts exactly. Anyone going to any of the upcoming signings?

If no one else asks him this before SpoCon, I will. It's certainly an interesting question.

 

When is SpoCon?  I'm going to try my hardest to go to ConnectiCon in July.

 

'no matter what' is probably a bad question. I don't see any reason why it couldn't be shattered again.

 

I agree the "no matter what" might be a bit much but they way I see it if Ruin and Preservation merge totally into Harmony and then Harmony is Shattered there is no guarantee that Ruin and Preservation, as we know them, would be the result and not two different Shards.

[KChan]

Honestly, that right there is another great question: If Harmony were to be Shattered, would it break into Ruin/Preservation, two different Shards, or would it just be splintered? Knowing the answer to this could give us a little insight into the nature of Adonalsium.

[Isomere]

Honestly, that right there is another great question: If Harmony were to be Shattered, would it break into Ruin/Preservation, two different Shards, or would it just be splintered? Knowing the answer to this could give us a little insight into the nature of Adonalsium.

I'd recommend rephrasing to "How many fragments would be created if Harmony were Shattered? How would these correlate to Ruin and Preservation?"

I could also see him splitting into three shards corresponding to allomancy, feruchemy and Hemalurgy. Or splitting into 16 fragments based on the metal types, or splitting into 48 parts with all 16 of each magic type carving off a chunk.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I'd recommend rephrasing to "How many fragments would be created if Harmony were Shattered? How would these correlate to Ruin and Preservation?"

I could also see him splitting into three shards corresponding to allomancy, feruchemy and Hemalurgy. Or splitting into 16 fragments based on the metal types, or splitting into 48 parts with all 16 of each magic type carving off a chunk.

I don't see shattering necessarily having a fixed size. Endowment can split off a ton of Divine Breaths willingly, after all.

[Vortaan]

I don't see shattering necessarily having a fixed size. Endowment can split off a ton of Divine Breaths willingly, after all.

 

 

Slightly different though. Endowment isn't Shattered, s/he is Splintering off bits of itself that make their way back in a few years, generally. Compare this to Devotion and Dominion, who have no choice about Seons, AonDor, etc. I kind of suspect that pre-Shattering those two, there were no Seons at all. 

[WeiryWriter]

I've updated my original post with a section based on Chaos theory: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3377-theory-devotion-dominion-and-convergence/

 

I wanted to get my thoughts out there but I might need to find a way to explain them better.

[Cartith]

I agree completely with the statement that the 17th shard may be trying to stick something else in place of Adonalsium. Seriously, look at the name they gave themselves. If they were trying to recreate Adonalsium, they would probably call themselves The First Shard, or some such.  If they were trying to do anything with Adonalsium, they would be trying to create something new, not reforge what once was. 

[Odium's_Shard]

I don't see shattering necessarily having a fixed size. Endowment can split off a ton of Divine Breaths willingly, after all.

 

Maybe it can, maybe it can't. What is the number of Returned that are present at any one time? Do you know?

If we do not know, or it isn't mentioned, that there is a limit, or that a limit has not been reached, no-one can ever disprove that there is a limit (within reasonable argument, though if there were 100 Returned, it might be safe to assume there are no higher numbers related to Adonalsium or the Shard of it).

 

If there is less than 16 Returned, or less than 10, both of these numbers are known to be important in the Cosmere for different reasons, and could provide an upper bound for Returned. If not, there could be higher important numbers that we don't know about.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Odium's_Shard