Theory: Adonalsium cannot be put back together again

[Carcinios]

When I saw the name of this topic my brain went Adonalsium is Humpty-Dumpty. It explains so much!

[Senor Feesh]

Maybe it can, maybe it can't. What is the number of Returned that are present at any one time? Do you know?

If we do not know, or it isn't mentioned, that there is a limit, or that a limit has not been reached, no-one can ever disprove that there is a limit (within reasonable argument, though if there were 100 Returned, it might be safe to assume there are no higher numbers related to Adonalsium or the Shard of it).

 

If there is less than 16 Returned, or less than 10, both of these numbers are known to be important in the Cosmere for different reasons, and could provide an upper bound for Returned. If not, there could be higher important numbers that we don't know about.

 

I'm having trouble finding the relevant passage right now, but there is a mention in-text of how many palaces there are in the Court of the Gods in Hallandren. I'm sure it's over 20. It's mentioned that less than half are currently occupied; I don't remember if it's the number of Gods which is in the twenties or the number of palaces.

[Odium's_Shard]

Because if there was an upper boundary, the math nerds here would be most interested to see if the number of combinations or magic systems or number of Returned or metals correlates directly to the occupant Shards of the Shardworld, or the combination of Shards with multiple Intents, or what it says about certain Shards.

 

It could even be used to prove or postulate how many Shards are on Nalthis or Roshar and how they link together.

[WeiryWriter]

When I saw the name of this topic my brain went Adonalsium is Humpty-Dumpty. It explains so much!

 

I would be lying if I said that nursery rhyme wasn't going through my head when I was naming this thread...

 

About the splintering of Shards and numbers: I don't think there is a limit to how many Splinters there can be.  Mostly because I do not believe that there are 16 Shards because 16 is a cosmere-important number but rather 16 is a cosmere-important number because there are 16 Shards.

[Windrunner]

I'm having trouble finding the relevant passage right now, but there is a mention in-text of how many palaces there are in the Court of the Gods in Hallandren. I'm sure it's over 20. It's mentioned that less than half are currently occupied; I don't remember if it's the number of Gods which is in the twenties or the number of palaces.

I think there's 50ish or so. There are just plenty of palaces that are currently empty. If I find the quote, I'll post it.

 

EDIT:

Here's Lightsong pondering that same question:

Some of the palaces were dark; the buildings that currently held no gods. What would happen if too many others Returned before we killed ourselves? he thought idly. Would they build more palaces? As far as he knew, there had always been enough space

 

DOUBLE EDIT:

This is Lightsong noticing the room for goods during the court assembly, but presumably there are enough palaces for all the gods that can fit in the assembly.

There was room for about fifty gods, but the court had only a couple of dozen. Twenty- five, wasn’t it?

 

I'd imagine that there must be some upper limit of Returned on Nalthis, otherwise Endowment would give away all of his/her power.

[Isomere]

I do not believe that there are 16 Shards because 16 is a cosmere-important number but rather 16 is a cosmere-important number because there are 16 Shards.

Playing along the Humpty Dumpty Theme, which came first the chicken or the egg? At this point it's hard for me to decide whether 16 was an inherent characteristic within Adonalsium and when he was shattered the 16 facets separated naturally, or whether his shattering arbitrarily fractured him into 16 pieces and that became a relevant number as a result.

[Shardlet]

I think something that is missing from this discussion is 'can a Shard make a big splinter and a small splinter?'  It seems to me that the size of the splinter would be determined by the effect that the splinter is desired to have.  This obviously applies only to voluntary splinters.  However, when a shard is splintered by an external force (such as by Odium in the case of Dominion and Devotion) are all splinters of equal size, power, and ability?  We know Seons contain splinters, but are the splinters within seons the only splinters of Devotion that resulted from Odium's splintering of Devotion? 

 

Back to voluntary splinters, there clearly must be an upper bound to how many splinters of a given size could be produced by a Shard.  I have not seen any indication that Shards are infinite.  On the contrary, it seems rather clear that splinters and other investments decrease the power a Shard has at its disposal.  What isn't clear is how much Endowment (for example) is diminished by furnishing a divine breath or how many devine breaths could be produced while maintaining a level of power which would enable Endowment to act as is or may be necessary to provide for the needs of Nathis and its inhabitants.  It also isn't clear whether or not a splinter which is at the heart of a seon is equal in magnitude to a divine breath (i.e., are they the same sized chunk of their respective parent shard).

[Odium's_Shard]

Ok, multiple reply time! I am unsure as to whether 16 is a natural number, inherent, but that fact that 10 is also inherent is supplementary to the notions that is the presence and fact of 16 Shards that determines important number in magic systems and on Shardworlds, as I originally said.

 

In response to Windrunner, its a shame Lightsong is very unclear with 'about 50'. But the issue here is that there aren't any known important numbers that correlate with that. But along the same vein, the number 10 is ingrained in the Ten Heightenings, the magic system which is the only place we have seen important numbers. 10 seems to be the system number of a Shard that doesn't merge with its opposite.

 

Similarly, this could imply that Endowment can separate into any number or size of pieces it wants so long as it isn't completely consumed, I assume? Because it the difference in the size of Splinters is evident in the Divine Breath compared to the single Breath, and once this is established, then there is only an upper limit to the number of Splinters based on the ratio of Breaths to Divine Breaths currently 'on loan'. This poses the interesting question as to whether on Nalthis there is an upper limit to population, or if population breached a certain limit, Endowment would be exhausted, if this is possible? Would its Intent and ability be lost until until Breaths could coalesce on the Spiritual plane when enough people die to reform the Shard? Does the Shard reform?

 

The question of whether or not a Shard individually can reform is paramount to whether Adonalsium ever can. If base Shards cannot, then Adonalsium cannot. But Shards can retain Power given out on loan so long as its base Intent and existence is assured. If when the Shard is exhausted it can reform, barring whatever caused the Shattering, Adonalsium theoretically can even after its mutual Intent is Shattered.

[Shardlet]

You probably missed this during your absence Odium's_Shard, but it turns out that Shards can merge as shown in the quote below from the Reddit AMA:

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1ced7z/iamstilla_novelist_named_brandon_sanderson_ama/c9l29rz?context=3'>link

 

Thanatos17901:

 

Thanks so much for all your writing, Way of Kings is the best book I've read in the last decade.

If Sazed were to die, would he drop the Shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the Shard Harmony?
 
Brandon:
Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)

 

And then there is this one below:

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=948'>Link

 

Mason Wheeler

You've said that Splintering a shard is essentially the same thing as the shattering of Adonalsium, repeated on a smaller scale.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Mason Wheeler

And a while ago, someone asked you if Splintering was permanent or reversible, and you said that it can be reversed.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Mason Wheeler

And shard holders tend to take the name of the shard they hold. So you've got Sazed, who goes by "Harmony" now, after taking up Ruin and Preservation. That makes me wonder, does he hold two shards... or one?

Brandon Sanderson

You could really answer that either way. The distinction is a really subjective one, and you could say that he's holding both shards, or that he holds one single Harmony.

 

 

 

So it seems clear that a shattered shard can be reformed and Adonalsium can likewise be reformed thourgh the merger of all the shards (and there associated splinters?).  Seems like a monumental task, but a possible one.

[Windrunner]

Oh, Splintered Shards can reform. Brandon confirmed that in our forum Q&A.

 

CHAOS

Is Splintering a Shard permanent?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No.

Source

As for the number of Returned in the Court of Gods, I don't think it would be particularly informative. Returned Return all across Nalthis, so I'd imagine that the number of gods in the Court is more dependent on how much attention or importance Endowment feels Hallendran is currently, rather than some limit on divine Breath.

As for a population limit, I personally believe that wouldn't affect Endowment any more than it would any other Shard because I think that Breath is simply a part of a regular human Spiritual aspect that can be given away.

[Shardlet]

I am not sure whether the numbers have an over-arching significance or whether they were built into each magic system by the respective Shards to be a symbol to act as a sign to the people affected by those magics.  For example, on Scadrial at the time of Mistborn, it was generally accepted that there were 10 allomantic metals.  But, really there were 16 and the knowledge of the other metals was suppressed by TLR for his own purposes.  But when you get to HOA, 16 keeps cropping up everywhere as a clue put in place by Preservation.  This ultimately allows Elend and Vin to figure out crucial information.  On Roshar, 10 is the predominant number (10 Heralds, 10 KR orders, 10 Fools, 10 Surges, 10 Highprincedoms in Alethkar, 10 Silver Kingdoms, etc.).  I don't know that 10 itself is iomportant or whether 10 was decided by Honor and Cultivation to be important.  There are 16 original Shards of Adonalsium.  But, I think that is coincidental to Scadrial's 16.

[Senor Feesh]

10 seems to be the system number of a Shard that doesn't merge with its opposite.

 

That seems like quite a logical leap. Preservation and Ruin never merged until Sazed took them up, but 16 was still a significant number. Also, there's a real possibility that Honor and Cultivation have either merged, or are at least working together in some fashion. Endowment is the only Shard we've seen to date to have little to no interaction with another Shard, and we have nothing to suggest a number that has any meaning for Endowment.

 

16 is in some way important on Scadrial (and perhaps beyond, if Adonalsium was indeed split into 16 pieces). 10 is significant on Roshar. We don't even really know for sure that 10 is significant to Honor (although it's incredibly likely, all things considered) as opposed to another Shard on Roshar. The numbers may even be significant to the Shardworld and not the Shard. I'll be very interested to see how that meta-sub-plot-element (:S) plays out.

[Odium's_Shard]

These points are true. As to the reformation of a Shard, I presume this must be done under Intent and the Cognitive presence of a Shardbearer, they wouldn't just coalesce over millennia. 

 

I agree with the points that these numbers might not be CAUSED by the inherent properties of Shardic interaction but instead be designed into the system by the Shardbearer. This asks the question as to how much control a Shardbearer has over the magic systems in place so that they can make these numbers crop up. Or if Leras put hints to 16 metals all over the place to guide Vin to it, why there were 16 in the first place if Leras did not control that factor.

[Shardlet]

I agree, insofar as by shardbearer you mean a holder of a shard, or a Shard if you will.  Don't forget 'shardbearer' refers more accurately to a holder of a shardblade and/or shardplate than a bearer of a shard of Adonalsium.  I doubt reformation would be spontaneous.  Perhaps, maybe, possibly if you were able to gather and contain all the splinters together in one small contained area it might happen spontaneously.  But it is hard to say since we have no examples of qany kind of reformation or joining that I am aware of except for Ruin and Preservation into Harmony. 

 

It is interesting to note though, that Harmony is formed of two invested shards.  They were not at full strength when the merging happened.  So, it seems that Adonalsium could be reformed without all the shards being at full power/strength/substance.  Of course, in the case of Honor, Dominion, and Devotion, these shards would have to be reformed at least in part, since they are completely shattered (i.e., no remaining core only splinters are left), before they could be merged with one or more shards.

 

As to motivation, causality, etc. for the numbers, I don't know, but I suspect that they are each individually sourced from the Shardic magic systems rather than sourced from Adonalsium itself.  A lot of it depends on how much control the Shard has over the development of their associated magic system.  The Shard chooses to invest, but other factors, such as the planet itself, have a strong determining role in the nature of the magic system produced.  

[Odium's_Shard]

It could just be that while the Intents of those two Shards are merged, their power deficit, the Power currently on loan, is then shared, and doesn't disappear.

 

Presumably, Adonalsium cannot be fully reformed until all of this deficit is sadly collected. Maybe, a la chemistry, when Shards coalesce and rejoin the energy holding them separate is also released. I would think that holding all of Adonalsium closely together in such a way as that it would coalesce spontaneously would produce a Shattering all over again. Maybe Adonalsium is really just the Big Bang of the Cosmere, and its very formation leads to its very destruction, creating new and interesting eras of magic and mystery and adventure time and time again.

That's a cool idea but improbable because people and civilization existed at the time Adonalsium was fully formed.

 

Also, on the line of Investiture. Does the Shard choose to Invest, or is that choice made for them by the nature of the magic and the nature of the Shardworld upon which they reside and the Shardic interactions that arise? For Allomancy, the key was placed in humanity by the Lerasium, the Physical form of the Shard, but all humans also contain a piece of Preservation that was placed in them by Leras.

 

So this asks the questions: would the Lerasium only affect those who had this Preservation-aspect, or is the Physical form a necessity for Shards? If it is a necessity and it can affect those that aren't Invested by the Shard by choice, then there is a certain opening by which people could Invest themselves, give themselves access to the Shard's Power. While they are Invested, have they Invested themselves, meaning the Shard has to Invest Power, or has the Shard, by choice, given aspects of its Power to mere mortals for the fun of it?

[Shardlet]

IIRC, the Shard has limited capability to determine the nature of the magic produced by their investment.  The planet itself (it's cognitive and spiritual aspect) plays a large role in how the chips fall.  As near as I can tell, the Shard chooses how much of themselves and their power they invest.  Clearly Ati and Leras chose to invest and to work together to create humans and life (and more?).  HoA epigraphs say that humans were the only thing on Scadrial which had more of Preservation in them than Ruin and that is what tipped the scales initially in Ruin's favor leading to Preservation's decision to trap Ruin at the Well.

 

As to Lerasium (which Hoid has a bead of), as I understand it, burning it causes an sDNA rewrite or patch that enables access to allomancy.  I don't see why this would not work for anyone not from Scadrial since it is a rewrite.  Seems like burning Lerasium would put a bit of Preservation in you, so that would not be an issue.

 

As to the motivation of the Shards to invest, I think many of the Shards have an innate drive to create (Ruin being the exception, although I used to build towers out of blocks and then get a lot of enjoyment knocking them down).  Some (Dominion for example) probably would have gotten a kick out of having peons to lord over.

[Odium's_Shard]

I think you're right about the mutual aims, that the aims of opposing Shards fulfill each other. The need to Destroy something can only be fulfilled once something is Created.

 

Maybe, linking to other Realmatic thoughts, this is the same with other things in the Cosmere.

Balance. Perhaps the mere existence of the Cosmere, and Adonalsium within it, nothingness, and everything, empty, complete, demands it in all aspects of the world.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Forgive me for not citing, but we have WoB that a surgebinder who didn't know what he was doing would become a mistborn by eating lerasium.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Odium's_Shard]

Yes this is logical. But even subconsciously, the sDNA patch would allow him to reach towards that Power (if it was available on Roshar, this isn't clear, is it?) even if he didn't know he was performing Allomancy. The Cognitive presence of the humanoid is still working to acheive something even if it is not sure what that something is, or is driven by desperation.

 

And I think the point about balance needs to be explored/negated/debunked. There must be some things in the Cosmere which are not balanced by something else. If there isn't, this could give hints to other things.

[Shardlet]

I think balance is rather inconsequential Cosmericly speaking.  After Mistborn it is easy to get locked into this thinking, but WoB is that Ruin and Preservation were a special case and the other Shards do not have such precise opposite pairings.  With the Shards we know of currently, the only others that are kind of close to opposites are Odium and Devotion.  But even these are still not quite in opposition to one another.  One could be devoted to to one's hatred or opposition to something/someone.

[Odium's_Shard]

But you see what I mean even without any direct opposite, you cannot know Odium without having Love/Devotion to compare it with. This isn't important or consequential, just perhaps an interesting residue of the pieces Adonalsium fell into, and perhaps a hint that it can be put back together again once these two opposing forces are reconciled under a presence (Harmony).

[Shardlet]

That would assume though that these attributes are sourced from the Shards themselves.  I would expect that all the attibutes that are characterized by the Shards exist and have existed in humans (on Yolen or other planets) absent any shardic influence.  Truly opposition is required for definition and understanding of the attribute.  But, since the attributes all would have predated the shattering of Adonalsium, the opposing attribute need not be embodied by a Shard to be understood and recognized.

[Odium's_Shard]

Perhaps while the Shards may have prevailed Intents, the World they live on and the people they Invest in and share it with influences them like any other because of their human qualities as a Shardholder. 

 

Like how Preservation determined to put a part of himself into the people of Scadrial, maybe he endeared to them. Shardholders are humans too, perhaps twisted by their Shard's Intent.

[Kadrok]

Truly opposition is required for definition and understanding of the attribute.  But, since the attributes all would have predated the shattering of Adonalsium, the opposing attribute need not be embodied by a Shard to be understood and recognized.

 

But you see what I mean even without any direct opposite, you cannot know Odium without having Love/Devotion to compare it with.

 

Sorry to interrupt, but this sort of thinking has always troubled me, and I'd like to understand how it is patently true that one can only understand something through also knowing its opposite. Surely I don't need "cold" to understand "hot", surely I just need... "average"? What I mean is, you can love someone, hate someone and have no strong feelings towards someone, and I think I would still understand love even if hate didn't exist. That being the case, I think you could know Odium without having Devotion to compare it with. Does that make any sense? (I feel like I missed a big philosophical memo whenever this comes up )

Edited July 5, 2013 by Kadrok

[Shardlet]

Sorry to interrupt, but this sort of thinking has always troubled me, and I'd like to understand how it is patently true that one can only understand something through also knowing its opposite. Surely I don't need "cold" to understand "hot", surely I just need... "average"? What I mean is, you can love someone, hate someone and have no strong feelings towards someone, and I think I would still understand love even if hate didn't exist. That being the case, I think you could know Odium without having Devotion to compare it with. Does that make any sense? (I feel like I missed a big philosophical memo whenever this comes up )

 

The idea is not that you would not be able to recognize hot without having experienced cold, but that much of the things that we perceive are relative and contrast provides increased understanding and clarity.  As to love and hate, I really don't consider them to be opposites.  I think ambivalence or absence of feeling towards someone or something is a more accurate opposite to either.