Random Abrasion Surge Pondering

[Kobold King]

Apologies if this has been brought up before. It's been a while since I frequented the Stormlight board.

 

My question is a simple one: why doesn't the Abrasion Surge allow its users to slick the palms of their hands and the soles of their feet? It seems a fairly arbitrary limitation, and the closest I can come to a logical solution is that somehow the calluses on these parts of the body interfere with the Surge. Is there a better explanation?

[+Slowswift]

Did it not allow them, or was Lift just choosing not to slick her palms? I was under the impression she had her palms and feet unslicked so she could control where the heck she was going. Also, doesn't Darkness mention dancing across wires at lightning speed or something? It would be pretty hard to do that on your knees.

 

It's been a while since I've read the interlude, but I thought that's what it was. 

Edited April 27, 2015 by Slowswift

[Redbird]

As Slowswift said, it seems this was on purpose, since that was how she accelerated and steered.

[Kobold King]

That makes a lot more sense than what I was thinking. Thanks.

[Wyndrunner]

While we're here though, can Lift increase her friction or can she only lessen it? I figure Releasers probably can because they can somehow create fire but what about Edgedancers.

[CabbageHead]

While we're here though, can Lift increase her friction or can she only lessen it? I figure Releasers probably can because they can somehow create fire but what about Edgedancers.

I assume they can adjust their co-efficient of friction in both directions. Could make for some pretty awesome flame-throwing crash stops, if they can manage to maintain balance under rapid deceleration.

It could also allow for some interesting gecko-like climbing abilities.

Edited April 27, 2015 by CabbageHead

[Maverick]

While we're here though, can Lift increase her friction or can she only lessen it? I figure Releasers probably can because they can somehow create fire but what about Edgedancers.

I now have the image of Lift being able to increase her friction with the air or water on the soles of her feet enough to stand in open air or walk on water.

 

[Redbird]

I now have the image of Lift being able to increase her friction with the air or water on the soles of her feet enough to stand in open air or walk on water.

 

That seems more like a tension or cohesion thing than friction. Using friction for that would burn through stormlight and her feet.

[Patrick Star]

I now have the image of Lift being able to increase her friction with the air or water on the soles of her feet enough to stand in open air or walk on water.

 

 

That's not how friction works.  Friction is equal to the coefficient of friction times the normal force.  Air exerts almost no normal force (air resistance), and water exerts very little as well.  Abrasion would only affect the coefficient, so even if it were possible, it would take way too much stormlight for a radiant to do.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

While we're here though, can Lift increase her friction or can she only lessen it? I figure Releasers probably can because they can somehow create fire but what about Edgedancers.

What? Isn't that what she did I? She decreased friction to her knees and increased friction to her hands. I don't have my book on me so I can't be sure, but I'm pretty sure that's what she did.

[Dunkum]

What? Isn't that what she did I? She decreased friction to her knees and increased friction to her hands. I don't have my book on me so I can't be sure, but I'm pretty sure that's what she did.

I just reread that interlude earlier today (it's one of my favorites), and my impression was that she made most of her body slick, but did not do anything to her hands/feet.

[Patrick Star]

While we're here though, can Lift increase her friction or can she only lessen it? I figure Releasers probably can because they can somehow create fire but what about Edgedancers.

 

They can totally increase it.  Nale said that edgedancers could run on a thread (or something like that).  That would only be possible by increasing friction.

[tobar14]

I don't think that the abrasion surge can increase friction, otherwise it would have been called out on the coppermind. Then it would be called adhesion.

Abrasion makes less friction

Adhesion makes more friction

[Yata]

I don't think that the abrasion surge can increase friction, otherwise it would have been called out on the coppermind. Then it would be called adhesion.

Abrasion makes less friction

Adhesion makes more friction

There are different way to obtain a similar effect.

With the Adesion surge you "paste" two surfaces together.

While with Adesion surge you may change the Friction,  but when you increase it the effect is diffentert. Two objects is more hard to move only if you push the first over the second. You may simply lift it the object without any problem.

[tobar14]

There are different way to obtain a similar effect.

With the Adesion surge you "paste" two surfaces together.

While with Adesion surge you may change the Friction,  but when you increase it the effect is diffentert. Two objects is more hard to move only if you push the first over the second. You may simply lift it the object without any problem.

That's not exactly how friction works. Think of Velcro, that's the best way to explain it.  What happens when Velcro is sticking together is what happens to surfaces on a very small scale.  Basically, if you increase the friction of an object (which can be done by making your surface more jagged thus allowing for the other surface to get caught, or making the other surface more jagged so that your surface gets caught in it, or both.) you can stick it to a wall upside down and it won't fall.  Think of hammering a nail into the ceiling, it doesn't fall down because the friction caused by the interaction of the surfaces holds it in place.

[tobar14]

You have 2 surfaces

Surface 1: has dips and valleys (isn't flat)

Surface 2: has dips and valleys (isn't flat)

 

Friction: The force that is created when Surface 1 dip runs into surface 2 valley, and/or when surface 2 valley runs into surface 1 dip.

            People with the abrasion surge can manipulate their surface to be completely smooth, so it just rolls over the other surface.  Probably using stormlight or spren.

 

Adhesion: the action or process of adhering to a surface (which is typically accomplished by an adhesive agent) .  Typically a liquid like substance that fills in the nooks and crannies of both surfaces, then hardens, forming a bond between the 2 surfaces caused by friction.

            People with the adhesion surge use stormlight or spren (nobody is really sure) to act as an adhesive agent to fill in the nooks and crannies, thus increasing friction, and making it stick together.

 

 

 

Basically, if the Abrasion surge can go both ways, that makes the Adhesion surge pointless.  Friction is what makes adhesion possible.  If there was no friction, adhesives wouldn't work.

[Blightsong]

That's not exactly how friction works. Think of Velcro, that's the best way to explain it. What happens when Velcro is sticking together is what happens to surfaces on a very small scale. Basically, if you increase the friction of an object (which can be done by making your surface more jagged thus allowing for the other surface to get caught, or making the other surface more jagged so that your surface gets caught in it, or both.) you can stick it to a wall upside down and it won't fall. Think of hammering a nail into the ceiling, it doesn't fall down because the friction caused by the interaction of the surfaces holds it in place.

Wait. So do adhesives like tape work using friction, because I'm positive they don't. It would also be extremely weird if two surges used the same basic principle. It would be like if allomantic iron pushed and zinc pulled.

[tobar14]

Wait. So do adhesives like tape work using friction, because I'm positive they don't. It would also be extremely weird if two surges used the same basic principle. It would be like if allomantic iron pushed and zinc pulled.

yes, they certainly do.

Friction is a force

Adhesives are substances that rely on friction to bind objects together 

[tobar14]

Like, if my body had an extremely small amount of friction, I would slide everywhere, and it would take me a long time to stop moving on my own.

 

If I wanted to increase my friction, I would add an adhesive to the situation, which would greatly increase my friction force, bringing me to a stop.

[Rakei]

My understanding of adhesion is that at its fundamental it's a surge that influences electromagnetic fields and thus has very little to do with friction or the abrasiveness of the surfaces, what that implies is that even two completely frictionless slick surfaces would stick together by influencing the electromagnetic field of the objects through the adhesion surge.

 

So I don't think there is anything that precludes the ability to increase abrasiveness as well as diminish it?

But I mean that's just how I've been considering it.

[Dunkum]

I think you are actually misunderstanding the Adhesion surge (in fairness this is because I think Brandon was misusing the word Adhesion). we know that windrunners use the adhesion and gravitation surges, but brandon also refers to them using gravitation and pressure:

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=windrunner

so I think the Adhesion surge is more closely related to pressure than to what you discuss above as adhesion.

as to abrasion, I assume it could raise the friction in a surface, I just don't think we have any definite evidence for that, so the coppermind doesn't mention it.

[Nethseäar]

Before I type anything sensible, I'd like for you all to know that I consistently type 'Surgebinging' before I manage to get the correct spelling. My insincere apologies for whatever image that causes you to conjure.

Actually relevant:

If I recall correctly, Adhesion is actually the surge of Pressure -- not Friction or Electromagnetism. I don't have my copies of the books at the moment, but this should be verifiable by way of a glance at the Ars Arcanum.

So, though adhesives use friction, Adhesion does not.
 

 

I assume they can adjust their co-efficient of friction in both directions. Could make for some pretty awesome flame-throwing crash stops, if they can manage to maintain balance under rapid deceleration.

It could also allow for some interesting gecko-like climbing abilities.

Balancing issues aside (physical balancing, that is), I do wonder about the usefulness of the aforementioned, awesome, flame-throwing stops, assuming palms or feet are used to make them -- wouldn't stopping that way burn off/tear the skin? Or even destroy shoes? I guess Stormlight would heal the body, but that would get expensive. Both monetarily and magically.

Then again, I see no reason why you wouldn't use such quick stops in a dire circumstance. And Brandon Sanderson would, of course, build up to the moment appropriately.
 

 

Basically, if the Abrasion surge can go both ways, that makes the Adhesion surge pointless.  Friction is what makes adhesion possible.  If there was no friction, adhesives wouldn't work.

Even knowing that Adhesion is the surge of Pressure, I do wonder about this. Friction could, indeed, be used to achieve a similar effect. In addition to the mention of nails, phone books make a lovely demonstration.

We could look at it in the light of Pewter and Iron/Steel -- both can be used to travel quickly, but with different mechanisms, and both have unique uses in addition to the ones they share. I expect we'll see more uses of the Pressure surge -- I highly doubt that the 3 Lashings are all that can be done with Pressure and Gravitation.

EDIT: Dunkum beat me to it! But I'll leave the post, since it adds 'Surgebinging' and stuff. And, more seriously: I believe the confusion over Adhesion and Pressure was intentional, and reflects an in-world misunderstanding, much as the early Mistborn Ars Arcanums had certain things wrong.

Edited November 22, 2015 by Nethseäar

[Rakei]

ah thanks for the information, dunno how I missed that.

 

Still makes the surge incredibly confusing, I mean if you can decrease pressure (create vacuum) to bind things together which I would then think is how the binding works, is it then theoretically possible to increase pressure and crush something?

 

Maybe it's possible but no one has had the level of understanding needed to affect that into reality... scary though if windrunners theoretically could increase atmospheric pressure and crush an armoured man, or shelled beast...

 

Well I imagine a possessor of the surge abrasion could affect more with the surge than just their body, so they could make a branch extremely abrasive and light it at fire easily?

[Nethseäar]

ah thanks for the information, dunno how I missed that.

 

Still makes the surge incredibly confusing, I mean if you can decrease pressure (create vacuum) to bind things together which I would then think is how the binding works, is it then theoretically possible to increase pressure and crush something?

 

Maybe it's possible but no one has had the level of understanding needed to affect that into reality... scary though if windrunners theoretically could increase atmospheric pressure and crush an armoured man, or shelled beast...

 

Well I imagine a possessor of the surge abrasion could affect more with the surge than just their body, so they could make a branch extremely abrasive and light it at fire easily?

Exactly. These are Brandon Sanderson books, and there are still 8 of them to go. We don't have anywhere near the full picture of what Surgebinding can do. I believe both of your suggestions -- crushing with Pressure and speeding chemical reactions with Abrasion -- are theoretically valid uses of those Surges.

I have suspicions that the Shattered Plains were shattered by a Lightweaver, using the Surge of Soundforms. Cymatics works as foreshadowing for this.

[DreamEternal]

ah thanks for the information, dunno how I missed that.

Still makes the surge incredibly confusing, I mean if you can decrease pressure (create vacuum) to bind things together which I would then think is how the binding works, is it then theoretically possible to increase pressure and crush something?

Some of us theorize that was how Kaladin created that wave of force after speaking the second oath. Edited November 21, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern