Deducing RoW character groupings

[Goatbringer]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

So perhaps Venli's participation will be over stormphone?  Or she will defect much faster then we expect?  Or she will transfer back and forth using willshaper abilities?

She might straight up be captured, that could happen early on right? For instance none of us thought

Spoiler

That Moash was going to have his reunion with Kaladin in chapter 8. Maybe Venli is the same.

Also, she has been on Team Odium for over a year at this point right? Why not defect early?

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Goatbringer said:

For instance none of us thought

Spoiler

I am not sure that is Moash and even if it is I don't think this will be the last confrontation between him and Kaladin.  Moash clearly has a game plan.

4 minutes ago, Goatbringer said:

Also, she has been on Team Odium for over a year at this point right? Why not defect early?

We have a chapter with her still on team Odium.

 

[+Oltux72]

8 hours ago, Chiberty said:

There are multiple reasons she wouldn't be in Group 3, but the main one is that Group 3 doesn't get viewpoints in Part 1, but Venli does.

Are we sure the first few chapters aren't some kind of intro who do not count for the purpose of POVs and groups?

[Isilel]

Speaking of group 3, there is this:

https://imgur.com/tcE4p4Q

So, apparently the group 3 characters might have roles in part 1 without having PoVs, if nothing changed later in the writing process. Which has all kinds of interesting implications.

[Pathfinder]

So i have a genuine question. First and foremost i am not trying to prove a point. As in i am not trying to prove shallan and adolin are in any group over any other group. Just taking two pieces information i noticed and curious how people would rationalize it. So here they are

 

1. A lot of people have said that the bulgarian cover of adolin and shallan confirmed they had to be together and that it is an image of a climatic scene at the end of the book. So that would mean they would have to be present in part 5

2. People have stated that adolin and shallan have to be in group two because its mentioned that she has a scene in part one. 

 

The image isilel just posted shows that:

1. Group two is in part one but not part five

2. Group three is not in part one but is in part five

 

So are shallan and adolin in group two, but thereby are not in the ending climactic scene? Or are they in group three, having the climactic final scene but only show up without view points in part one?

Edited July 26, 2020 by Pathfinder

[+Oltux72]

11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

1. A lot of people have said that the bulgarian cover of adolin and shallan confirmed they had to be together

It does. Very hard to explain otherwise.

Quote

and that it is an image of a climatic scene

Quite reasonable

Quote

at the end of the book.

An assumption that may or may not be true

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So that would mean they would have to be present in part 5

I would say that this is a conclusion drawn from three different sources with different levels of suport.

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2. People have stated that adolin and shallan have to be in group two because its mentioned that she has a scene in part one. 

1. At the very start before they split. We know that Kaladin and Shallan are unlikely to be together. Taking it to be relevant for any group is daring.
2. Brandon mentioned that she is in chapter 7/8 and skipped it for an unmentioned reason.

Quote

So are shallan and adolin in group two, but thereby is not in the ending climactic scene? Or are they in group three, having the climactic final scene but only show up without view points in part one?

I will take the unpopular stance that the data we have is compatible with either option.

EDIT: Though taking the blurb recently published I find it less likely that they are limited to tertiary rank.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Oltux72
I have been stupid and forgot about the blurb

[Pathfinder]

46 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

It does. Very hard to explain otherwise.

Quite reasonable

An assumption that may or may not be true

I would say that this is a conclusion drawn from three different sources with different levels of suport.

1. At the very start before they split. We know that Kaladin and Shallan are unlikely to be together. Taking it to be relevant for any group is daring.
2. Brandon mentioned that she is in chapter 7/8 and skipped it for an unmentioned reason.

I will take the unpopular stance that the data we have is compatible with either option.

EDIT: Though taking the blurb recently published I find it less likely that they are limited to tertiary rank.

So you are saying the image posted by Isilel is inaccurate? Because it is showing it cannot be both. As in Shallan cannot "be" in both part 1 and part 5.

That she is either in a brief portion in the beginning before they all split off, is in part 5, and therefore cannot be in group 2. 

Or she is fully in part 1, group 2, but cannot be in part 5

Not sure based on that image how Shallan can be fully present in part 1 and part 5 as I believe you are stating. Which is why I am confused. 

 

Edit: to put another way

1. If it is reasonable to conclude that shallan and adolin are in a scene at part five like every other cover has been, then they cannot be in group 2.

2. If it is reasonable to believe that shallan and adolin are in group 2 because shallan is mentioned in chapter 7/8 and thereby is in part 1, then she cannot also be in part 5

 

Hopefully that clarifies where i am confused. I don't see a way for both to be true at the same time. That it would have to be one or the other. Not both.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Harbour]

I didnt listen to the whole Brandon's reading cause english isnt native language, so i wonder - is Shallan being exactly in the same place Kaladin and Lift CONFIRMED solid?

Edited July 26, 2020 by Harbour

[rjl]

1 minute ago, Harbour said:

I didnt listen to the whole Brandon's reading cause english isnt native language, so i wonder - is Shallan being exactly in the same place Kaladin and Lift CONFIRMED solid?

If not,

It's not confirmed - all we know is that there is a break to a Shallan POV mid-chapter in the middle of the scene where Kaladin is fighting a battle with Lift present and Dalinar somewhere nearby.

We do not know where Shallan is or what she's doing HOWEVER would be weird to break to her POV mid-chapter if she's not present.

[Pathfinder]

13 minutes ago, rjl said:

It's not confirmed - all we know is that there is a break to a Shallan POV mid-chapter in the middle of the scene where Kaladin is fighting a battle with Lift present and Dalinar somewhere nearby.

We do not know where Shallan is or what she's doing HOWEVER would be weird to break to her POV mid-chapter if she's not present.

So maybe I am reading too much into it, but Brandon doesn't say PoV. He says:

 

"We have a line break here, with a quick Shallan scene, but we are not going to do that, we are going to jump right on to the Kaladin scene and read just a little bit more of that"

 

So yes usually scenes with a character named I would imagine would be PoV, but he does not explicitly state that, coupled with Isilel's addition makes me wonder. Brandon did say it was a quick scene. Could it be just setup and in regards to the outline it does not consider Shallan in part one? Just throwing ideas around. Didn't someone mention characters not mentioned in the outline being mentioned in chapter headings in prior books? Or am I recalling incorrectly?

Edited July 26, 2020 by Pathfinder

[rjl]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

So yes usually scenes with a character named I would imagine would be PoV, but he does not explicitly state that, coupled with Isilel's addition makes me wonder. Brandon did say it was a quick scene. Could it be just setup and in regards to the outline it does not consider Shallan in part one? Just throwing ideas around. 

I think it's possible that Brandon broke his plan just slightly and threw in a quick POV from someone in a different group.

[Pathfinder]

Just now, rjl said:

I think it's possible that Brandon broke his plan just slightly and threw in a quick POV from someone in a different group.

So then by that potential logic (not saying you are advocating this), then does that potentially mean Shallan is in group 3, not group 2?

[Lccaseiro58]

I have a different interpretation of the last paragraph, i don't think it confirms Shallan in Group 2.

Quote

At the same time that Kaladin Stormblessed must come to grips with his changing role within the Knights Radiant(1), his Windrunners face their own problem: As more and more deadly enemy Fused awaken to wage war, no more honorspren are willing to bond with humans(2) to increase the number of Radiants. Adolin and Shallan must lead the coalition’s envoy to the honorspren stronghold(3) of Lasting Integrity and either convince the spren to join the cause against the evil god Odium, or personally face the storm of failure.

Emphasis mine.

1 - I think this means Kaladin must come to grips with being the Windrunners leader not just a soldier. It reminds me of the Sigzil chapter in OB where Kaladin is neglecting some of his duties because he didn't even know that those were his.

2 - This is mostly a Windrunners problem, so Kaladin has the leader must find a solution. I don't think Dalinar is in charge of all 10 orders recruitment.

3 - The Coalition's envoy is most likely Kaladin. The leader of the Windrunners would be the best option to successfully convince the honorspren to start bonding humans again and in OB he managed to convince the ship captain to help then instead of taking Syl to the stronghold.

In conclusion i think Shallan and Adolin are in group 1 with Kaladin, not group 2.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Lccaseiro58

[Isilel]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

A lot of people have said that the bulgarian cover of adolin and shallan confirmed they had to be together and that it is an image of a climatic scene at the end of the book. So that would mean they would have to be present in part 5

Wasn't it known for a while that Group 2 would have a separate climax in RoW, rather than everybody coming together like in OB? I don't see their absence in part 5 as any kind of impediment for them ending up on the cover - there is no iron-clad rule that it _has_ to be something from part 5. Nor is it impossible for characters from separate groups to briefly intersect in the beginning before going their own ways.

[Harbour]

I think its possible for characters to jump from group to group in certains parts of the story. I doubt we will have 1100 pages with character groups being always separated. Yes, for major part the characters will act in their own groups, but sometimes theym may mesh with each other.

[Harbour]

19 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Wasn't it known for a while that Group 2 would have a separate climax in RoW, rather than everybody coming together like in OB? I don't see their absence in part 5 as any kind of impediment for them ending up on the cover - there is no iron-clad rule that it _has_ to be something from part 5. Nor is it impossible for characters from separate groups to briefly intersect in the beginning before going their own ways.

Wouldnt be surprised if (being in Group 2) Shallan and Adolin will end up entrapped in Shadesmar so we wont know about their fate for the Part 5 and will have to wait Book 5.
In some way reminding the way Han Solo was trapped in Empire Strikes Back, and major part of Act 3 has only Luke in it, and then we go back to Han only in the RotJ when Luke and Co came to resque him.

[Pathfinder]

36 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Wasn't it known for a while that Group 2 would have a separate climax in RoW, rather than everybody coming together like in OB? I don't see their absence in part 5 as any kind of impediment for them ending up on the cover - there is no iron-clad rule that it _has_ to be something from part 5. Nor is it impossible for characters from separate groups to briefly intersect in the beginning before going their own ways.

Ah thank you. I have been unable to set aside the time to properly pour over the WoB regarding this to respectfully respond to chickenliberty as I mentioned earlier in this thread so I had not seen that WoB. Hmmm so part 4's climax is minor then according to that WoB. Makes me really wonder all the more now what the big climax is that Brandon had planned for all these years!

 

edit: then again the cover could even be the epilogue climax. Hmmmmm

Edited July 26, 2020 by Pathfinder

[SanderFan69]

I don't see Brandon counting Syl as a character in the character groupings since she is pretty obviously going to be wherever Kaladin is. We know that Lift is with Kaladin in Hearthstone and she returns to Urithiru in her interlude pov (which Kaladin appears to have done as well per Syl's interlude), so I think it makes more sense that Lift is the 5th character in the primary arc. Even if she is not in the primary arc, she could also be the through-line interlude character, but I see her being in the primary arc as being more likely.

 

Also, why isn't Renairin mentioned at all? I feel like he could make sense as a secondary character in the primary arc, hanging out with bridge 4.

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

So you are saying the image posted by Isilel is inaccurate?

It predates several edits, doesn't it?

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Because it is showing it cannot be both. As in Shallan cannot "be" in both part 1 and part 5.

Yes, as far as we know, that is true. But that does not mean that we can yet tell which of the alternatives is true.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

That she is either in a brief portion in the beginning before they all split off, is in part 5, and therefore cannot be in group 2. 

I think the unstated assumption you are making is that we already are in part 1, while I think that it is possible that we are in a brief kind of intro and part 1 has to yet to begin with the split into groups.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Hopefully that clarifies where i am confused. I don't see a way for both to be true at the same time. That it would have to be one or the other. Not both.

Exactly. I did not mean to say that both are true. I am saying that we lack the information that allows us to say which one is true.

[Pathfinder]

9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Exactly. I did not mean to say that both are true. I am saying that we lack the information that allows us to say which one is true.

That is the thing. I was asking those that did believe both were true to explain their rationale on how could both co-exist.

Also never said i believed one over the other or that it could be determined which one over the other it was. 

Edited July 26, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Chiberty]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Are we sure the first few chapters aren't some kind of intro who do not count for the purpose of POVs and groups?

 

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So i have a genuine question. First and foremost i am not trying to prove a point. As in i am not trying to prove shallan and adolin are in any group over any other group. Just taking two pieces information i noticed and curious how people would rationalize it. So here they are

 

1. A lot of people have said that the bulgarian cover of adolin and shallan confirmed they had to be together and that it is an image of a climatic scene at the end of the book. So that would mean they would have to be present in part 5

2. People have stated that adolin and shallan have to be in group two because its mentioned that she has a scene in part one. 

 

The image isilel just posted shows that:

1. Group two is in part one but not part five

2. Group three is not in part one but is in part five

 

So are shallan and adolin in group two, but thereby are not in the ending climactic scene? Or are they in group three, having the climactic final scene but only show up without view points in part one?

I wasn't talking about the SDCC reading when I said Shallan would be a Part 1 PoV. I was talking about the preview chapters on Tor.com. Shallan is definitely a Part 1 PoV:

 

1 hour ago, SanderFan69 said:

I don't see Brandon counting Syl as a character in the character groupings since she is pretty obviously going to be wherever Kaladin is. We know that Lift is with Kaladin in Hearthstone and she returns to Urithiru in her interlude pov (which Kaladin appears to have done as well per Syl's interlude), so I think it makes more sense that Lift is the 5th character in the primary arc. Even if she is not in the primary arc, she could also be the through-line interlude character, but I see her being in the primary arc as being more likely.

 

Also, why isn't Renairin mentioned at all? I feel like he could make sense as a secondary character in the primary arc, hanging out with bridge 4.

Ah, I think you're looking at just the next to last spoiler box. If you look at the 3rd and 4th spoiler boxes , they'll have what you're looking for. Although, there are certain things that make the thing you said about Lift unlikely. I'll go into specifics if you'd like, but I'd suggest first looking at those two spoiler boxes, and maybe the Lift section in the deductions one.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Chiberty

[Pagerunner]

2 hours ago, Lccaseiro58 said:

I have a different interpretation of the last paragraph, i don't think it confirms Shallan in Group 2.

Emphasis mine.

1 - I think this means Kaladin must come to grips with being the Windrunners leader not just a soldier. It reminds me of the Sigzil chapter in OB where Kaladin is neglecting some of his duties because he didn't even know that those were his.

2 - This is mostly a Windrunners problem, so Kaladin has the leader must find a solution. I don't think Dalinar is in charge of all 10 orders recruitment.

3 - The Coalition's envoy is most likely Kaladin. The leader of the Windrunners would be the best option to successfully convince the honorspren to start bonding humans again and in OB he managed to convince the ship captain to help then instead of taking Syl to the stronghold.

In conclusion i think Shallan and Adolin are in group 1 with Kaladin, not group 2.

I think the progression of the character groups as described in the updates tells us that Kaladin is not the envoy. In April 2019, we got the first glimpse: the main characters would be split 4-3-2.

Quote

We have what I'm calling the Primary Arc, which focuses on four characters who are all together in one place, their plots interweaving. The Secondary Arc is three different characters, their arcs interweaving, but in a separate location from the primary arc. The Tertiary arc is the last two characters, in a third location.

There will be ties between the three arcs, but the book will read a little more like TWoK than Oathbringer--with several separate stories that imply interesting things for one another, but which generally focus on their own goals. Book Five should, then, be an interweaving like Book Two or Book Three.

In June 2019, Brandon had written Part 1 (which was apparently before the viewpoint clusters split), and his plans didn't appear to have changed.

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My goal after the revision of Part One is to pick one of the character clusters mentioned in the previous updates, and work on it straight through to the end. (I'll probably pick the second arc, which should be around 80k words long and follow three viewpoint characters in their distinct plot sequence.)

In August, after Brandon wrote Group 2, he had apparently moved one character from Group 2 to Group 1. (I'm assuming conservation of characters here; it's possible he demoted someone in Group 2 and promoted someone else in Group 1, in which case all this analysis is for naught.)

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At this point, I've finished the second chunk of the book. This means I've finished viewpoint cluster two, for those who are following along. If you aren't, or if this confuses you, I whipped up a little visualization.

This book, as I've said before, starts with all the characters together--then splits into three groups of viewpoints. The first group is the largest, and the most involved, with five viewpoints characters. Two of these, however, will have only a few viewpoints (and one might just appear in other viewpoints, save for an interlude.) Really, this is the story of three characters, and forms the core arc of the book.

The second viewpoint cluster, which is the one I've now finished, follows two characters on a very involved--but more narrowly focused--plot. The final cluster takes two remaining viewpoint characters, and touches lightly upon what they are doing, without going into quite as much depth as the other two groups.

Now that group two is finished, I have turned my attention to group one--the most difficult of the sequences to write. This should take me a few more months. After that, I'll write group three and the interludes.

By November, he'd written Group 3 and modified his SA4 outline. No updates on number of characters, though.

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I didn’t get a ton written during my tour last month, but I didn’t expect to. I did, however, have a little time--and I’ve focused lately on getting the last parts of the outline hammered together. There’s still some work to do on book five’s outline, but I’ve had the team move the outline progress bar to 100%--indicating that the book four outline is completely finished.

Right now, Parts One and Two of the book are done as well. Parts Three-Five have been finished for everything but the main, core viewpoint cluster. (So, if you’ve been following along, that means viewpoint clusters two and three are finished.) I’ve also done some work on the interludes, getting a nice chunk of those done, most notably the "through line" viewpoint for the Interludes.

Remaining to do are a handful of interludes and the core story for the second half of the book. Together, that should be around 100k words, though it’s possible I’ll go longer.

It's possible Kaladin was in the Group 2 Shadesmar expedition, but when he was writing the sequence Brandon decided to bump him out. He hadn't written Group 1, where Kaladin would go to, so it's not like it threw off any work he'd already done. And, in fact, that would explain the outline work he was still doing in the October/November timeframe, fitting Kaladin in with this group.

(The other option I can think of is that Renarin was moved; he and Shallan have the Sja-anat thing tying them together, which I suspect will play a big role in this book [but then again, Shallan's Ghostblood escapades in WoR didn't exactly pay off in OB, either]. Or have him as the envoy but not a POV character.)

 

On an somewhat unrelated note, after taking some time to digest the recent chapters/publisher's summary, go through the WoBs again, and revisit my original predictions, here's my current theory on the three arcs:

• Group 1: The War. Navani, Venli, Kaladin, Szeth, Lift. (The latter two being the minor characters, with Lift being the one who might only get an interlude)
• Group 2: Honorspren Expedition. Shallan, Adolin. (Renarin will be with them, but not as a POV character.)
• Group 3: Politics As Usual. Dalinar, Jasnah.

There seem to be four major plotlines hinted at in the latest publisher's summary: Dalinar's politics, Navani's arms race, Kaladin's new role, and Shallan's expedition. How to reconcile those four with the three viewpoint clusters? Obviously, two of them need to be combined. As I showed above, I don't think there's room for Kaladin to be a major viewpoint character in Group 2. And I suspect our three main-est characters (Kaladin, Dalinar, Shallan) will still get to lead their own sequences. Which then means that Navani's plot is going to be combined with somebody else. Her husband Dalinar would a lot of sense, but I think the fabrial arms race makes more sense in the context of the war in the field (like Kaladin telling Lift to bring her the voidrial in the Chapter 7/8 reading), so that's why I'm combining her with Kaladin, who may be moving to more of a support role for this book (as hinted by the Syl interlude) in the war with the singers. While Group 1 will "potentially reveal the secrets of the ancient tower," I don't think it will take place in the tower.

[Chiberty]

1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

• Group 1: The War. Navani, Venli, Kaladin, Szeth, Lift. (The latter two being the minor characters, with Lift being the one who might only get an interlude)
• Group 2: Honorspren Expedition. Shallan, Adolin. (Renarin will be with them, but not as a POV character.)
• Group 3: Politics As Usual. Dalinar, Jasnah.

Here is the reason I had made previously about Lift not being in it:

Quote

Since Group 1 only has one spot that could include Lift, and that is also the only spot that can include Syl, who we know gets an interlude and will be with Kaladin, it is highly unlikely that Lift would take that spot, considering her relative separation from Kaladin

Now, however, I am leaning on the idea that which PoV character gets the distinction of that final Group 1 spot doesn't really matter. If Syl and Lift are both at Urithiru, and both of them just get an interlude, does it matter which one of them is actually considered to have that spot and which one of them is just an interlude character? Would there be any way to even make that distinction, for that matter?

I'd consider the main unknown to be who, between Szeth and Jasnah, ends up in Group 1, and who ends up in Group 3. Try as I might, I can't find any WoB evidence that points strongly either direction. There is slight evidence towards Jasnah being the one in Group 1, but that evidence is very weak. The main spots all have a good amount of supporting evidence. The grouping as far as I can determine (most of the reasoning is in my original post) is:

• Group 1: Navani, Venli, Kaladin, 1 of (Szeth, Jasnah), and "I don't think there will be any way to determine the final spot, even after the book is released."
• Group 2: Shallan, Adolin
• Group 3: Dalinar, 1 of (Szeth, Jasnah)

 

[Kuram]

Shallan has a POV in part 1, according to Brandon's recent comiccon reading (he mentioned that he's skipping Shallan's part of that chapter, I think it was c7 or c8).

We also know that Shallan will be with Adolin for a time while they travel through Shadesmar, per the recent synopsis update.

Has Brandon said whether people will move between these 'groups'?

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Kuram said:

Shallan has a POV in part 1, according to Brandon's recent comiccon reading (he mentioned that he's skipping Shallan's part of that chapter, I think it was c7 or c8).

We also know that Shallan will be with Adolin for a time while they travel through Shadesmar, per the recent synopsis update.

Has Brandon said whether people will move between these 'groups'?

We have information indicating that most of them will start together before splitting off.