Strength of the Heralds

[Rich2244]

So after my second read of the first two books I am quite confused about the heralds strength.

Its clear that for whatever reason humanity only survived the desolations because of the heralds so they must be immensely powerful, however it seems like an Honourblade is vastly inferior to a sprenblade in every respect apart from the user isn't restricted by the sprens attitude.

Honourblades as far as we know so far 

Can't change shape

Use much more Stormlight to use the surges

Cant be used with shardplate

Take 10 heartbeats to summon, not sure if this is just because Szeth believes it should or not?

So with all of these limitations why were the heralds so powerful?

 

[Argel]

I don't think we should assume what applies to Szeth applies to the Heralds. For example, the Heralds may be able to make use of all that extra stormlight or not require as much stormlight. More to the point, I don't think an honorblade is what makes someone a Herald.

[BeskarKomrk]

I think what Argel said covers a lot of it. We've never seen a Herald using an Honorblade, so we don't know that they would work exactly the same way for them. Here's one specific instance, regarding the ten heartbeat point:

Quote

macros

Based on what we know currently about the ten heartbeats, why does Szeth require ten heartbeats to bring forth his Honorblade?

Brandon Sanderson

Perception is a very important part of how these things all work, and remember, the Honorblades work differently from everything else. Everything was based upon them. Why don’t you read and find out what’s going on there, but remember, the characters’ perception is very important.

macros

So then that’s why at one point Shallan requires ten heartbeats and now she doesn’t.

Brandon Sanderson

Right, just like—it’s the exact same reason why Kaladin’s forehead wounds don’t heal, because he views himself as need—as having those, somewhere deep inside of him, and that can’t heal until that goes away. And it’s the same reason why in Warbreaker, when you bring something to life your intention, rather than really what you say, is what matters. It’s all about perception.

source

It seems likely that it doesn't actually require ten heartbeats to summon an Honorblade, but because Szeth believes that to be true, the blade doesn't appear until then.

I also wanted to add that we don't know what other powers the Heralds had. The Honorblades granted Surgebinding to them, but they may have had access to other magic before that.

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Rybal

Can the Heralds Surgebind without their Blades and if not are they under the same restrictions that others are?

Brandon Sanderson

The Heralds without their Blades are incapable of the powers you're familiar with. It doesn't mean there aren't other things they can do.

source

[Toaster Retribution]

They can probably do other things. They dont age much, apparently. 

[+hwiles]

I think at this point we're definitely supposed to be confused about the Herald's strengths and weaknesses.  We've pretty much only seen them at their absolute worst, ie: drunk, pessimistic, and maybe even downright unhinged.  But at some point in the distant past, they were granted immense powers and chosen to be humanity's protectors, presumably due to their heroic nature and close association to either or both Honor and Cultivation.

Maybe there are thing we don't know about the Herald's surgebinding that will allow them to be immensely powerful...Then again...Darkness doesn't exactly have the easiest time catching Lift, and he does seem to be in possession of his Honorblade...It's possible that the main thing the Herald's brought to the table in terms of saving humanity was leadership, military strategy, and weapons/armor technology.  Taln exhibits relatively absurd superhuman reflexes at one point, so I think it's a fair guess that in close quarters, a Herald could probably beat the snot out of a Radiant, but maybe their surges just aren't particularly important and are legitimately less effective than those of Radiants.  When Kaladin jumps into the middle of a hundred Parshendi, it isn't usually his surgebinding that allows him to wreck their lives, it's his super speed and stormlight induced healing (also he's really good with the spear, so that probably helps a bit... )  I would guess that when it comes to taking down something like a Thunderclast, using stormlight for increased speed and skill and trying to chop its head off would be more efficient than attempting to lash it into the sky (they're supposed to be really heavy).

[Yata]

It's possible that the Desolations was "easier" before Spren began to give power to humans....some kind of balance of power. When the Human forces gained more power...Odium was allowed to push more forces aganist the Roshar's guardians (or maybe He learn from the Radiant SPren and developed new method of attacks).

Also, every Honorblade was made specificaly for an Herald....Maybe he is the "perfect host" for a Specific Honorblade's Bond. The Blade may work with other humans (also other herald) but it's more inefficient bound (like a Radiant with less Oaths spoken).

[Rich2244]

Ah right so it's generally accepted that they have other 'powers', I was thinking that Honourblades had some sort of additional effects that Szeth hadn't unlocked for whatever reason

[The One Who Connects]

31 minutes ago, Rich2244 said:

Ah right so it's generally accepted that they have other 'powers', I was thinking that Honourblades had some sort of additional effects that Szeth hadn't unlocked for whatever reason

We generally accept that they had other powers, but as Yata mentioned "perfect host," the Honorblade may have given them other strengths as well.

[Spoolofwhool]

My thoughts are that the Honorblades were designed to be "keys" for the Heralds' spiritwebs. When wielded by the Herald they were created for, it fully unlocks all the abilities in the Herald. However, when used by someone else, it can only correctly interface with certain, more general, parts of the spiritweb, which results in only a limited number of abilities being granted. 

[Patrick Star]

Yeah, the Heralds could presumably make much better use of their honorblades than a normal person, and each herald was worth an army by themselves, since they could repel desolations before the radiants formed (albeit with much higher casualty numbers).

[+hwiles]

Plus, when a Herald dies, their blade disappears from the physical realm with them, so we already know they are more closely bound to the blades than Szeth ever was.  Possessing an Honorblade does not a Herald make   Closer bound to me implies access to greater powers, like how Radiants' bonds work.

[geralt]

5 hours ago, Yata said:

It's possible that the Desolations was "easier" before Spren began to give power to humans....some kind of balance of power. When the Human forces gained more power...Odium was allowed to push more forces aganist the Roshar's guardians (or maybe He learn from the Radiant SPren and developed new method of attacks).

This is a really intriguing theory and it could explain why the radiants decided to break their oaths and cause the recreance to happen. It would also explain why Nale is so fixated in getting rid of potential radiants and if I'm not mistaken one of the messages from Taravangian's diagram is about how the secret of why the radiants abandoned mankind could be used to split them.

[Spoolofwhool]

6 hours ago, Yata said:

It's possible that the Desolations was "easier" before Spren began to give power to humans....some kind of balance of power. When the Human forces gained more power...Odium was allowed to push more forces aganist the Roshar's guardians (or maybe He learn from the Radiant SPren and developed new method of attacks).

I imagine they were easier because the Listeners weren't on Odium's side until after spren started bonding with humans. So yeah, more of a balance, because the formation of the Knight Radiants indirectly caused a race to turn to Odium and gain powers to counteract them.

[Patrick Star]

So basically Desolations are a live action version of space invaders?

[Eccentric Hero]

1 hour ago, Patrick Star said:

So basically Desolations are a live action version of space invaders?

Well, probably not. Imagine the parshendi going evil and giant monsters coming out of the ground. And, perhaps other monsters yet to be revealed, maybe even Midnight Essence.

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, Eccentric Hero said:

Well, probably not. Imagine the parshendi going evil and giant monsters coming out of the ground. And, perhaps other monsters yet to be revealed, maybe even Midnight Essence.

Midnight Essence are probably related to the Unmade, so they might've been in the first few Desolations before the Listeners joined Odium.

[PantsForSquares]

On 9/12/2016 at 1:32 PM, Yata said:

It's possible that the Desolations was "easier" before Spren began to give power to humans....some kind of balance of power. When the Human forces gained more power...Odium was allowed to push more forces aganist the Roshar's guardians (or maybe He learn from the Radiant SPren and developed new method of attacks).

Also, every Honorblade was made specificaly for an Herald....Maybe he is the "perfect host" for a Specific Honorblade's Bond. The Blade may work with other humans (also other herald) but it's more inefficient bound (like a Radiant with less Oaths spoken).

I'm of the opinion that the Desolations were a war of attrition between Honor & Cultivation vs. Odium, with an "arms race" of sorts. We know that the Parshendi considered the spren giving Surgebinding to humans a betrayal of sorts, and that's what gave the Unmade the opportunity to use them as Voidbringers. We also know that the Heralds inspired the spren to create the Nahel bond, which lends to some idea that there was a timeline to this.

My current theory - developed on another thread here - is that Honorblades and Heralds are two halves of a whole - while the Honorblades provide access to the Surges, the Heralds themselves act either as a force multiplier or have other powers that allow them to exceed the power of a fully-realized Radiant (whereas Szeth loses to Kaladin moments after the latter's sworn his Third Ideal). We know that they have some other powers, but there's no way that agelessness and heightened reflexes alone justify their mythical stature.

[Patrick Star]

5 hours ago, Eccentric Hero said:

Well, probably not. Imagine the parshendi going evil and giant monsters coming out of the ground. And, perhaps other monsters yet to be revealed, maybe even Midnight Essence.

I'm more referring to how you don't "win" space invaders.  More waves just keep coming with more and tougher enemies until you die.

[Rich2244]

10 hours ago, Patrick Star said:

I'm more referring to how you don't "win" space invaders.  More waves just keep coming with more and tougher enemies until you die.

As far as we know so far yes it seems that way, however there have only been what 7, 8 if you count this one so it's hardly a definite, any wave could be the last.

[goody153]

The honorblades only give the surges, the heralds themselves have other things that they could do (so far we've only seen Taln and Nale as the closest to combat ..and Taln could catch dart bolts midair without warning , i suspect that's just one thing). I think Honorblades are pretty much perfect for heralds.

I mean we do know that Ishar(the bondsmith equivalent of heralds) practically threatened to wipe the Radiants if they did not follow their orders before (that should give us a hint that they probably could kill Knight Radiants alone).

[Rich2244]

20 minutes ago, goody153 said:

The honorblades only give the surges, the heralds themselves have other things that they could do (so far we've only seen Taln and Nale as the closest to combat ..and Taln could catch dart bolts midair without warning , i suspect that's just one thing). I think Honorblades are pretty much perfect for heralds.

I mean we do know that Ishar(the bondsmith equivalent of heralds) practically threatened to wipe the Radiants if they did not follow their orders before (that should give us a hint that they probably could kill Knight Radiants alone).

While I largely agree, I don't think that we can compare anything Bondsmith to the other orders.

[goody153]

1 minute ago, Rich2244 said:

While I largely agree, I don't think that we can compare anything Bondsmith to the other orders.

I meant about this quote that Ishar basically threatened to destroy them all, we also know that Nale was the last guy who took responsibility of an Order since he thinks it's needlessly vain (although this is unrelated).

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"But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws."

I just said that Ishar is equivalent to Bondsmith since he's their patron/head(and the radiant surges are based upon his honorblade) kinda like Jezrein with the winrunners, Nale with the Skybreakers , Ash with the Lightweavers etc.

[Rich2244]

48 minutes ago, goody153 said:

I meant about this quote that Ishar basically threatened to destroy them all, we also know that Nale was the last guy who took responsibility of an Order since he thinks it's needlessly vain (although this is unrelated).

I just said that Ishar is equivalent to Bondsmith since he's their patron/head(and the radiant surges are based upon his honorblade) kinda like Jezrein with the winrunners, Nale with the Skybreakers , Ash with the Lightweavers etc.

Yep no all of that I'm fine with, my point was just that due to Bomdsmiths being bound to 'God' spren their order is uniquely powerful even amoung radiants, so the Herald of the Bondsmiths would in my mind be far more powerful that the other heralds. Because of that it isn't really fair to use him as a comparison to normal radiants.

[1stBondsmith]

3 hours ago, Rich2244 said:

While I largely agree, I don't think that we can compare anything Bondsmith to the other orders.

 

2 hours ago, Rich2244 said:

Yep no all of that I'm fine with, my point was just that due to Bomdsmiths being bound to 'God' spren their order is uniquely powerful even amoung radiants, so the Herald of the Bondsmiths would in my mind be far more powerful that the other heralds. Because of that it isn't really fair to use him as a comparison to normal radiants.

Being somewhat uniquely qualified to comment on this (...er, the Username), I believe you will find in the next book, how the Nahel bonds are made and broken will be further explored, and there you will see how the Bondsmith (or the Herald with similar powers) can destroy all Radiants. It also allows people to trust in the oaths that have been made by the Radiants. Consider it speculation if you want, but just avoid trying to use the surges for your own ends instead of for the goals of the Order. It won't end well. Trust me.

[goody153]

3 hours ago, Rich2244 said:

Yep no all of that I'm fine with, my point was just that due to Bomdsmiths being bound to 'God' spren their order is uniquely powerful even amoung radiants, so the Herald of the Bondsmiths would in my mind be far more powerful that the other heralds. Because of that it isn't really fair to use him as a comparison to normal radiants.

Hmm i'm not sure, i mean i would argue that Skybreakers would probably be the mightiest (even their surges are both meant for combat) after all they act as policing force to the KR. I suspect if Jezrien or Nale would do it themselves (assuming the act fits to their beliefs) they could also destroy the Radiants in their state back then.(we are not quite sure how the heralds now )

I think it is possible that Bondsmith's would actually only have powerful spren(i mean the current spren with Dalinar is responsible for the freaking highstorms) and it wouldn't actually correlate to how strong the Knight Radiant would be.

Edited September 14, 2016 by goody153