Strength of the Heralds

[1stBondsmith he/him]

A WoB stated that the reason that there could only be three Bondsmiths at a time, was that there were only three High Spren that could bond to make one. Usually, there were only one. I don't have time to research the quote, but I am sure it is so. The mission of the Bondsmith is what we don't have a good bead on. The only information I can offer is what Brandon wrote in my book:

"XXXXXX XXXXXX (name edited for privacy), welcome to the order of Bondsmith. Your first duty will be to keep the peace for all."

Huge duty for an average Knight. The control they have over bonds is what gives them power over KR. However, this would leave them pretty open to danger from those without a bond (no sword and all). Can't wait to find out what it takes to be inducted as one. Brandon said he didn't think he would make it through the trials.

[Jondesu he/him]

I don't get the impression that the Bondsmiths were uniquely powerful, though depending on how they work, they may exert some control over the bonds of the other Radiants. I also don't expect Ishar was more powerful than the other Radiants; Jezrien seems to have been the one in charge, and Nalan or Taln was probably one of the most physically powerful, though we can't be sure. Ishar was the "organized" one it would seem, or perhaps more interested in unity, as would befit the Herald of the Bondsmiths.

Of course, any Herald should be a match for any Radiants, and probably for quite a few at once.

jW

[Savanorn he/him]

Just to weigh in. Presuming Taln in WoR is at least somewhat like the original, he has better feats than Naln. Naln struggled to catch a  exhausted Lift. Taln could catch darts midair. 

Admittedly the Heralds may not be good examples of the order they founded. I mean Taln was noted to be physically outstanding in more or less every mention. It could be a him thing and not a Stoneward thing.

But, I imagine the Stonewards are the real CQC fighters whilst the Windrunners and Skybreakers are more specialist troops. So to speak. I mean their ideal sort of echos this.

As to Bondsmiths, it depends how much they can alter Nahel bonds especially individually versus collectively. I don't think they're anything special in combat, however. 

I believe the Ishar quote is more referencing the fact that Ishar is a Herald and that unlike other Heralds who didn't know or care, Ishar realised the limits that could and should be placed on the budding KR. 

It also lets us see that, taking Ishar as an example, despite being an order that seeks peace and balance, they aren't Windrunners and are willing to drop their wrath.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

49 minutes ago, Savanorn said:

I believe the Ishar quote is more referencing the fact that Ishar is a Herald and that unlike other Heralds who didn't know or care, Ishar realised the limits that could and should be placed on the budding KR. 

Granted, there may not have been a massive amount of surgebinders when he bound them to ideals, but "let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws." really implies that he thought he could demolish them easily enough. Granted, the limits of what he could do with tension (the force holding objects together) and adhesion (binds unlike things/surfaces together) while not limited by oaths are really unknown.

There is also the possibility that the semi-Radiants did not have plate yet either, so he could affect them directly with his powers.

[PantsForSquares he/him]

1 hour ago, Savanorn said:

But, I imagine the Stonewards are the real CQC fighters whilst the Windrunners and Skybreakers are more specialist troops. So to speak. I mean their ideal sort of echos this.

Here's how I imagined it:

Among all of the combatant KR orders, Stonewards would be the heavy hitters - they'd be hard to take down, but nowhere near as mobile as the others. Windrunners provide a defense against ranged offense and can temporarily eliminate opponents via Adhesion, giving them an element of crowd control. Skybreakers are the heavy hitters of the Orders, with both Gravitation and Division to seriously bring the pain. Dustbringers, on the other hand, act as skirmishing units - capable of quickly moving in and out. They're more geared towards offense than Windrunners are, but can't maneuver in the air. Edgedancers round these out as combat medics - matching the mobility of Dustbringers, coupled with their ability to heal.

The other Orders don't seem to be heavily geared towards combat (Truthwatchers could probably substitute for Edgedancers), but I'd imagine that they'd be able to lend support and still be able to hold their own in a fight. I'd imagine Lightweavers could provide cover via illusion, or Soulcast objects in/out. Elsecallers could help with deployment, and they'd definitely be able to Soulcast.

[Savanorn he/him]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Granted, there may not have been a massive amount of surgebinders when he bound them to ideals, but "let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws." really implies that he thought he could demolish them easily enough. Granted, the limits of what he could do with tension (the force holding objects together) and adhesion (binds unlike things/surfaces together) while not limited by oaths are really unknown.

There is also the possibility that the semi-Radiants did not have plate yet either, so he could affect them directly with his powers.

Yeah, no doubt, but I kind of mean... 

Like a full powered Herald was probably more than a match for anyone, let alone the undoubtedly untrained and inexperienced Radiants of the time. I think Ishar was powerful not because he was a bondsmith, and thus not because of perks or surges, but because he was a Herald. 

I could be wrong, of course, but it is more that as you noted the Surges of the Bondsmiths alone don't seem particularly combat orientated. Especially when compared to the downright beefy mixes of things like the Releasers and Skybreakers. 

Do remind me, do we know if Heralds shared the perk of their Order? My gut suggests they don't, but it has been wrong. 

1 hour ago, PantsForSquares said:

Here's how I imagined it:

Among all of the combatant KR orders, Stonewards would be the heavy hitters - they'd be hard to take down, but nowhere near as mobile as the others. Windrunners provide a defense against ranged offense and can temporarily eliminate opponents via Adhesion, giving them an element of crowd control. Skybreakers are the heavy hitters of the Orders, with both Gravitation and Division to seriously bring the pain. Dustbringers, on the other hand, act as skirmishing units - capable of quickly moving in and out. They're more geared towards offense than Windrunners are, but can't maneuver in the air. Edgedancers round these out as combat medics - matching the mobility of Dustbringers, coupled with their ability to heal.

The other Orders don't seem to be heavily geared towards combat (Truthwatchers could probably substitute for Edgedancers), but I'd imagine that they'd be able to lend support and still be able to hold their own in a fight. I'd imagine Lightweavers could provide cover via illusion, or Soulcast objects in/out. Elsecallers could help with deployment, and they'd definitely be able to Soulcast.

Sounds good to me. A more fleshed out version of what I was thinking more or less. 

I think the Releasers likely have a perk that enhances their aspect of Division. 

[PantsForSquares he/him]

7 hours ago, Savanorn said:

Sounds good to me. A more fleshed out version of what I was thinking more or less. 

I think the Releasers likely have a perk that enhances their aspect of Division. 

I'd imagine that their strength largely comes from being able to use both Abrasion and Division together in an incredibly synergistic manner. As far as my basic guesses go, only the Stonewards had another, equally synergistic combination of Surges. Every other Order we've seen thus far has their powers exist in somewhat separate manifestations.

[Krandacth]

I'd like to weigh in on the OP and say that I think the Heralds were probably stronger/more efficient Surgebinders than any KR, even though others using Honorblades are significantly worse than any KR. This is actually a natural conclusion of my previously-posted theory, linked below, and lines up with the statements and theologies in the books.

 

Edited September 15, 2016 by Krandacth
forgot to add link

[The One Who Connects he/him]

13 hours ago, PantsForSquares said:

Here's how I imagined it:

Among all of the combatant KR orders, Stonewards would be the heavy hitters - they'd be hard to take down, but nowhere near as mobile as the others. Windrunners provide a defense against ranged offense and can temporarily eliminate opponents via Adhesion, giving them an element of crowd control. Skybreakers are the heavy hitters of the Orders, with both Gravitation and Division to seriously bring the pain. Dustbringers, on the other hand, act as skirmishing units - capable of quickly moving in and out. They're more geared towards offense than Windrunners are, but can't maneuver in the air. Edgedancers round these out as combat medics - matching the mobility of Dustbringers, coupled with their ability to heal.

The other Orders don't seem to be heavily geared towards combat (Truthwatchers could probably substitute for Edgedancers), but I'd imagine that they'd be able to lend support and still be able to hold their own in a fight. I'd imagine Lightweavers could provide cover via illusion, or Soulcast objects in/out. Elsecallers could help with deployment, and they'd definitely be able to Soulcast.

This really seems like a decent premise for some sort of game (not sure which ones to really compare too). Even if they don't gear towards fighting, soulcasting is an amazing replacement for supply lines (which gets ingrained from reading "Roshar vs whoever" threads). I hadn't considered that Elsecallers could transport other people with them, good call. Maybe more of them could increase the efficiency of it (or Jasnah just needs to practice )

[muco]

My thinking is that Heralds before they became one were already very powerful.

It wouldn't surprise me if these heralds before they became one were more powerful than KR's.

[Djarskublar he/him]

Do we even know for sure if the Heralds are actually human? They 'die' and go to Braize. Dead spren are highly reminicent of Hoed. The Heralds are broken. They appear to be obsessing over something. Taln is repeating his mantra of preparation over and over like a really long winded Hoed. All these connect in my head, but I'm not sure what to make of it.

[Jondesu he/him]

11 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

Do we even know for sure if the Heralds are actually human? They 'die' and go to Braize. Dead spren are highly reminicent of Hoed. The Heralds are broken. They appear to be obsessing over something. Taln is repeating his mantra of preparation over and over like a really long winded Hoed. All these connect in my head, but I'm not sure what to make of it.

IIRC, Brandon has RAFO'd just about anything related to the origin of the Heralds, though there's a few WoBs about them, just ones that don't tell us much related to that.  I can see some pattern trying to connect in my head too, and it's just not snapping together.  The connection to the Hoed I hadn't placed, but you're right that there is a distinct similarity, with them being "stuck" in a transformation because of a broken magic (not sure if that applies to Taln or not).

jW

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Dec, 2010:  Who each of the Heralds are and what their natures were is important.

March 11, 2014:  Were the heralds born on Roshar?   RAFO

Sept 4th, 2014:  Is he Rosharan? Taln is Rosharan. // Native to Roshar. That I have to RAFO. // The Heralds are from the same place that Taln is from.

Feb 17, 2016:  The Heralds do not come from Nalthis, but that is an excellent question.

Apr 8th, 2016:  It is normal for a cognitive shadow to get stuck to places, because they exist through investiture it is normal for them to get tied to an area. This happened with Odium and the two shards on Roshar, Preservation to Ruin, and the Heralds (To Roshar? Braize?).

Relevant information on Theoryland containing the "Heralds" tag

[Rasarr she/her]

3 hours ago, Jondesu said:

The connection to the Hoed I hadn't placed, but you're right that there is a distinct similarity, with them being "stuck" in a transformation because of a broken magic (not sure if that applies to Taln or not).

An idea just popped into my head because of what you've written. Perhaps there is some kind of process, or sequence of events, that a Herald has to perform in order to fully return from Braize and keep a sound mind. Could the Blade be the key? Death is a pretty good way of cutting the connection to it, as is breaking of the oath the Blade is connected to. The nine Heralds broke the oath, and are now pretty stormed up, mentally speaking. Taln died, and is now pretty stormed up in his head as well. Could it be that the Herald has to bond the blade to bring himself back from Braize fully and "transform" back into a living, sane Herald?

What the above rambling was trying to say is, perhaps Bonding the blade is a necessary component of the process of coming back to Roshar. For example, let's assume the sequence goes: get resurrected -> re-bond the Honorblade -> say the words (Taln is obsessed with it) -> welcome back! Because he was already late, Taln didn't wait for his blade to re-bond with him, and instead rushed through things, running to Kholinar to say the words. Only someone swindled his Honorblade while there, stopping the bonding process, and so now Taln is trying to get to the next step of the sequence while unable to perform the former one, which is why he keeps on repeating the words while still seeing Braize in his head, as he's stuck mid-"transformation".