Help Sought with a Realmatic Question

[Confused]

We all know the basics: “all things (including investiture) exist in three realms”: body, mind and spirit – the Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual Realms. I personally add the word “simultaneously” after the word “exist” in the basic formulation, but that’s not canon.

 

Here’s my question: What happens in the Cognitive Realm where Shard’s thoughts (cognitive investiture) and other beings’ thoughts mingle?

 

My purpose in exploring this question has to do with splintering. I’ve advocated that splintering a Shard involves killing the Shard’s mind, allowing its power to go untethered to a consciousness that can control it. The “uncontrolled” power then develops its own consciousness – its own mind – and we call that self-conscious piece of power a “splinter.”

 

But Shards also self-splinter, peeling off bits of their own consciousness, their own mind. This “sacrifice” allows that bit of consciousness to use an equivalent amount of Physical Realm power independently of the Shard’s direct control. That’s what the Divine Breath in each Returned is, an intentionally created autonomous splinter of Endowment. We speculate that Odium and Cultivation also intentionally self-splintered on Roshar, as did Adonalsium him/her/itself, according to WoB.

 

That brings me back to my question, which seems fundamental to understanding splinters. What happens when God’s mind and mortal minds meet in the Cognitive Realm? Do their minds touch each other or do they hang out in different places? CAN IDEAS FROM MORTAL MINDS BECOME INVESTED WITH GOD'S OWN COGNITIVE INVESTITURE?

 

Help!!! (And thanks...)

Edited October 29, 2015 by Confused

[Moogle]

Here is the only interaction I can think of with a Splinter interacting with mortal minds in the Cognitive:

 

“What has become of me?” Wyndle asked. “Thieving in the night, chased by abominations. I was a gardener. A wonderful gardener! Cryptics and honorspren alike came to see the crystals I grew from the minds of your world. Now this. What have I become?”

 

No obvious extrapolations of this passage jump out at me.

[Ari]

I'm not completely sure that Splinters actually involve splitting off part of the cognitive presence of the Shard. I kinda think they're what happens when you split off the power without giving it any intelligence to go with it, and then it either ( a ) attaches to an existing sapient creature, such as with the Returned, or ( b ) develops its own sapience, such as with Spren, Seons, and Skaze.

 

edit: supressed smiley. lol

Edited October 29, 2015 by Ari

[SirTraconus]

I think that us what's happening on Roshar. The spren, or at least the ones for the knights radiant, are invested ideas.

[ParadoxicalZen]

Wasn't there a WoB in one of the more recent threads (I think SoS tour or the Ultimate Q's/Q&A) that stated that Divine Breaths were a different kind of splinter?

[Moogle]

Wasn't there a WoB in one of the more recent threads (I think SoS tour or the Ultimate Q's/Q&A) that stated that Divine Breaths were a different kind of splinter?

 

Different in the sense of being an intentional creation of a Shard rather than a byproduct of forced Splintering, maybe? I don't know what WoB you're referring to. If it was on the SoS tour then that might explain why I've missed it.

[ParadoxicalZen]

Different in the sense of being an intentional creation of a Shard rather than a byproduct of forced Splintering, maybe? I don't know what WoB you're referring to. If it was on the SoS tour then that might explain why I've missed it.

 

Nah, forgot to quote Confused's part about Autonomous splinter. I'll see if i can find the topic but it was in regards to the classification of what is a Splinter (previous WoB(s) stating that a splinter was a portion of a Shard's power that had gained sentience/sapience.

 

Found it, it was in the Initiation topic as there was debate as to whether there were different kinds of splinters. http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/47095-new-terminology-initiation/page-2

Which in fact Ari was the one that provided said information

 

As for the actual question, hmm...I think it would depend on the Shard's Intent and how strong the idea was. If the idea was so ingrained in the lifeforms of the Shardworld, simiarly to the way Kelsier managed to stay behind as a Cognitive Shadow, it could be possible for a Shard to create a splinter of some kind or to invest this idea.

Edited October 30, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Moogle]

Nah, forgot to quote Confused's part about Autonomous splinter. I'll see if i can find the topic but it was in regards to the classification of what is a Splinter (previous WoB(s) stating that a splinter was a portion of a Shard's power that had gained sentience/sapience.

 

Okay, Divine Breaths aren't sapient. I don't agree that it makes them any different from regular Splinters, however, hence my confusion. I see that thread has already said everything I'd want to say, so I'll leave it at that.

[Ari]

Okay, Divine Breaths aren't sapient. I don't agree that it makes them any different from regular Splinters, however, hence my confusion. I see that thread has already said everything I'd want to say, so I'll leave it at that.

 

Well, it makes them different in a concrete way because we got this answer when I was asking him if Returned would exhibit the Splinter-Bond investiture that he's stated that Spren and Seons give on Roshar. (And presumably the Skaze would also function the same way)

 

So there's something different mechanically in Realmatics about the Splinter/Divine Breath the Returned have not itself being sapient that causes them not to achieve magic powers on Roshar. That mechanic may be as simple as "the Splinter can't bond to an intelligence as it's already used up that capacity in resurrecting the Returned individual" or it could be something else going on.

 

edit: You can see the source tweet here, btw, for full context.

 

It could even be simply that you need two intelligences to form the sort of bond magic that happens on Roshar.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Ari

[Moogle]

Well, it makes them different in a concrete way because we got this answer when I was asking him if Returned would exhibit the Splinter-Bond investiture that he's stated that Spren and Seons give on Roshar. (And presumably the Skaze would also function the same way)

 

I believe the Seon bond thing on Roshar may be misinterpreted. Being on Roshar doesn't seem to give special powers when you bond something, it's bonding something from Roshar, I think. (I regret bringing the Seon WoB so often myself when it seems it was wrong. Such are WoBs.)

 

Q: Is [the Nahel/Seon] bond relatively common or is what seons, spren, and night blood do little more rare among splinters. I'm specifically talking about the act of making bonds not a giving of magic powers really, that appearing to be function of Roshar. Also regarding your post about storm light 3 I am personally ok with 2000 pages if need be so make the chapters as long as you want.

A: The bonding is basically the same mechanic, regardless of the world, just with different flavoring. Roshar isn't the only place where the bond gives powers; it's a matter of what's stuffed into the soul, and how.

(source)

 

Based on this, we already can guess what powers bonding a Divine Breath gives you... its the equivalent of holding a bunch of Breaths, plus some prophecy shenanigans (much like the Radiants get, now that I think about it).

 

I'd also disagree with the idea that a Divine Breath is "bonded" to a Returned when it seems more like it's a part of their soul. You're not bonded to yourself! But we don't know enough about the mechanics of how holding Investiture works to say that.

 

For reference, the Seon WoB:

Q: If an Elantrian bonded to a Seon and traveled to Roshar, would that act as a Nahel bond?

A: It would act very very similarly, yes. But it would be like… it wouldn't necesarily do the exact same things. It would be treated the exact same way, but wouldn't grant the same powers.

(source)

[Ari]

I definitely agree that the "Divine Breath" isn't "bonded" to anything in the same way other Splinters are, rather whatever it does to bring about Returned, that probably expends its capacity to bond, either directly, or in preventing the Splinter from attaining sapience. I asked the question that way because I expected Brandon to smack down the framing, as I also disagreed with that assumption. I'd add to your list of powers the ability to control your own appearance to a degree, however.

 

We can't explicitly say Returned aren't "bonded to themselves" 100% for certain, but they certainly wouldn't exhibit any special powers on Roshar.

 

It sounds like you're right to caution on that Seon WoB, Brandon's hedging there could basically be "well the bonds are the same thing, but they don't grant any special powers beyond what they do anywhere else." It still kinda leaves room for something like Knights of Devotion showing up, possibly, but yeah, it's good to be cautious about exactly what he's saying. It's certainly correct that only the ten varities of Spren on Roshar would grant the surges we've seen in the way they're granted.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Ari

[Confused]

[CONTAINS SA3 SPOILERS]

 

Thanks to everyone for your interesting comments! I will first address the “Returned/Splinter/Bonding” issue, and then respond to something else Ari said. Finally, since we all seem to have gotten off-topic, I’ll throw out some thoughts to try and re-stimulate the main discussion. As always with my posts, most of what follows is analysis and speculation rather than canon.

 

Is “Non-Sapient” Divine Breath in the Returned Different from Other Splinters?

 

I think Ari’s tweeted WoB about the Returned’s investiture being “not sapient” is another example of MISTER Sanderson’s cleverness – it’s a true statement, but totally misleading.

 

IMO, consciousness is NOT an inherent property of investiture, and in that sense the WoB is accurate. Investiture “transcends” the Realms (WoB). Along with matter and energy, investiture is one of the three “building blocks” of the Cosmere. Like matter and energy, investiture has certain properties and is convertible from one form of itself – Spiritual, Cognitive or Physical – into another form of itself. It is also convertible into matter and energy.

 

But inherent “consciousness” is not one of investiture’s properties – just like life and consciousness are not inherent in matter and energy. Rather, something – possibly from beyond the Cosmere – caused Adonalsium to be capable of thought, just as something caused life on Earth. Maybe a random mix of components or the “God Beyond” or whatever, but consciousness is NOT inherent in investiture.

 

Thus, ALL investiture lacks sapience (and sentience as well). [Again, “sentience” refers to the capacity to feel, while “sapience” refers to the capacity to think, to make judgments.] Investiture itself neither thinks nor feels, no more than human brain tissue does.

 

On “Bonding” the Returned – Divine Breath Is Just Like Other Splinters

 

A “mind” to investiture simply means the capacity to direct its power; it does not refer to a personality or the quality of the wielder’s intelligence or moral sensibilities. The Returned’s Divine Breath, which Ari’s WoB tells us is not itself sapient, thus REQUIRES the Returned’s own resurrected mind to direct its power.

 

Pretty much every Cosmere magician has had its Spirit Web altered to enable them to command power – the “bonding” issue some posters above raise. That’s true on Roshar (Nahel bond); on Scadrial (allomancy and feruchemy are genetic); and for Elantrians (the Shaod) and I believe the others on Sel.

 

When Endowment re-endows the Returned with life, she provides them with a new Spirit Web, a new “soul.” Perhaps it’s grafted onto their old soul and some memories remain (like with Lightsong), but otherwise they do not resemble who they were.

 

So…Is Divine Breath different from other splinters because it borrows a dead person’s re-Endowed mind, rather than attaching itself to a living mind like Radiant Spren do? My answer is NO. (I also believe Odium’s Unmade are splinters made from dead listener and greatshell bodies, showing resurrection is not limited to Endowment.)

 

Response to Ari on the Definition of Splinters

 

Ari: how do you “split off the power without giving it any intelligence to go with it”? (And thank you for your question.)

 

As stated above, a “mind” to power is simply the capacity to direct its use. It is NOT “intelligence” or personality. Power WANTS to be used. When it is cut off from the mind that controls it, it seeks other minds to direct it (like the Radiant spren do and like we believe the Shattered power that became the Shards did). If power can’t find another mind, then it self-propagates one with “bizarre” effects. (WoB suggests that’s why the Cognitive Realm around Sel is “dangerous” following Devotion and Dominion’s splintering.)

 

This NEED to find a consciousness to direct it is what creates splinters, certainly “forced” splinters. “Splitting off the power without giving it any intelligence” presupposes the intelligence – the mind – is already gone, or at least unavailable to that splinter. That’s why my mantra is “to splinter a Shard, kill its mind.”

 

Based on Sazed’s epigraphs in HoA, I understand “power” to be investiture’s Physical Realm manifestation, a Shard’s “body.” I tend to think of “power” in active terms – the Shard directing some act that manifests in the Physical Realm. But most Physical Realm power is actually latent - it awaits a consciousness to direct it.

 

Atium was Ruin’s “body,” his Physical Realm investiture, his “power.” That “god metal” contained Ruin’s latent power that Preservation hid from him. That’s why Ruin could only affect Physical Realm events through agents like the Inquisitors and Koloss: he controlled no direct “power” of his own; he could not apply his mind to direct that power’s use.

 

Instead, when Elend and his mistings consumed the atium, they were able to use their minds to burn the atium and manifest Physical Realm magical effects. Roshar’s Surgebinders use Stormlight – Physical Realm gaseous investiture (“power”) – in the same way.

 

The important thing is that in none of these cases does this latent power spring into being as a “splinter,” with its own or borrowed consciousness.

 

That’s why I think “splinters” are primarily cognitive investiture and not physical investiture (“power”). Splinters are the flotsam and jetsam that survive a shattered mind. Like spren and the investiture in Seons and Skaize, these shattered remnants attach themselves to their human hosts’ Spirit Webs. That enables the human hosts to exercise the power that the splintered cognitive investiture is capable of directing. (You might look at my “Why Radiant Spren Start Out Stupid” post for an explanation of this process.)

 

Syl may be a splinter, but her bond to Kaladin’s mind enables him to use her mind to direct magical power. He cannot use his unbonded mind independently to direct power, as we saw in WoR. Note further that Syl herself is NOT “power,” except when she becomes his Shard-whatever. Kaladin’s Physical Realm lashings all rely on Syl’s ability – as cognitive investiture – to direct the manipulation of the Spiritual Realm’s “Gravitation” and “Adhesion” Surge connections between objects.

 

More Thoughts on the OP Topic

 

As stated in the OP, I believe everything exists simultaneously in all three Realms. I object, therefore, to the various statements in these forums that some magic is “more Spiritual” or “more Cognitive” or “more Physical” than some other magic. ALL magics IMO equally involve all three Realms, even if they seem to manifest more noticeably in one Realm or another. Just my view of things. To continue…

 

The Cognitive Realm is the place of feelings and ideas. On the one hand, feelings and ideas are immaterial and lack tangible substance. When Shallan visits Shadesmar, she sees beads, just as Jasnah first did. Each bead represents the idea of that bead’s corresponding Physical Realm object or concept, like the stick or the Wind’s Pleasure.

 

Only when Jasnah physically travels to Shadesmar, in the SA3 spoiler chapter, do we see how these ideas manifest to one another. Painspren inside Shadesmar, for example, “harmmore.”

 

WoT’s Tel'aran'rhiod seems like the template for the Cognitive Realm. There, as here, one can appear cognitively – in one’s dreams – and also physically. I suggest the commonality extends to the ability to kill when one is physically present in the Cognitive Realm.

 

I find all this Confusing. Here are some questions I’m looking for help on, together with some thoughts:

 

Why Are Ideas Inside Shadesmar Capable of Harming One Another?

 

Metaphorically, this makes perfect sense – an ideological “survival of the fittest.” But where does this conflict take place? In fact, how can the Cognitive Realm even have the physical substance to World Hop through? Are World Hoppers a form of virus invading some sort of central nervous system ganglia?

 

Maybe it’s like The Matrix: destruction of the mind inside the Matrix will destroy the physical body located elsewhere? Just like MISTER Sanderson described in Perfect State? IOW perhaps World Hopping involves the movement of the Spiritual and Cognitive investiture comprising the Hopper’s Soul and Consciousness from one part of the Cognitive Realm to another. When you arrive, you take the body of a local planet’s person and use it until you move on to another world.

 

This comports perfectly with my theory that the Heralds are “identity” spren embodied in the HonorBlades. IMO, the Heralds gave Honor their “souls,” down to their physical, mental and emotional characteristics. We know from feruchemy that almost every type of human characteristic is storable. Given the feruchemy precedent, it’s reasonable that investiture can store one’s characteristics during a World Hopping jaunt, after which that investiture re-emerges in the physical body of someone else, temporarily converting them into you.

 

I’m not advocating that as the basis for World Hopping. I’m just trying to understand how the Cognitive Realm can have physical substance enabling ideas to fight one another.

 

If (i) all ideas can tangibly affect one another inside Shadesmar, and (ii) they each act according to their nature, then (iii) wouldn’t more aggressive ideas begin to destroy less aggressive ideas?

 

What happens in the Cognitive Realm if specific ideologies come to dominate? Do “stronger” ideas begin to push out less advantageous ones? Will the idea of war come to dominate the idea of peace, just as it mostly does on Earth? What is the effect of such ideological domination? Are alternative ideas squeezed out? Does the “squeeze out” effectively “kill” the mind of other local Shards?

 

Kaladin discovers that Roshar is everywhere at war. People fighting tend to be aggression-fueled, belligerent, warlike. They will “de-humanize” each other and turn everyone but their own kind into something less than them, undeserving of even minimal decency standards.

 

If that’s what Roshar’s Physical Realm now looks like, what’s happening in the Cognitive Realm, where ideas themselves do tangible battle? I can’t quite develop the full theory yet, which is why I ask your help, but all of the foregoing leaves me believe that Odium splinters other Shards by first destroying their minds in the Cognitive Realm.

 

Please help me make this theory work!

Edited November 5, 2015 by Confused

[Gotta Go Fast]

Oh boy do i have no idea 

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

Some remarks:

 

This NEED to find a consciousness to direct it is what creates splinters, certainly “forced” splinters. “Splitting off the power without giving it any intelligence” presupposes the intelligence – the mind – is already gone, or at least unavailable to that splinter. That’s why my mantra is “to splinter a Shard, kill its mind.”

 

Killing the mind of a Shard is almost certainly a requirement for splintering it, but I doubt it is the only one. Ati and Leras (and Vin) - the minds of Ruin & Pres. - died, leaving their Shards to be taken up by someone else. If to kill a Shard's mind is the same as killing the Shard itself, that would have been impossible.

 

Atium was Ruin’s “body,” his Physical Realm investiture, his “power.” That “god metal” contained Ruin’s latent power that Preservation hid from him. That’s why Ruin could only affect Physical Realm events through agents like the Inquisitors and Koloss: he controlled no direct “power” of his own; he could not apply his mind to direct that power’s use.

 

 

This is a bit nitpicky, but the atium was only part of Ruin's body/power. Just enough so that Ruin would be equal to Preservation again after preservation gave up a bit of his power to create humanity. The reason Ruin had to work through agents was that whatever action he directly took with his power would automatically be countered by Preservation's power (acting without a mind at that time BTW, since that had been dispersed when Vin let go of the power at the Well).

 

That’s why I think “splinters” are primarily cognitive investiture and not physical investiture (“power”). Splinters are the flotsam and jetsam that survive a shattered mind.

 

This would directly contradict Divine Breath being Splinters, since Endowment is still alive (and therefore whole).

[natc]

We're better off pointing out that all voidspren are splintered off of the still-living Odium, as are the spren of Cultivation. The Knights Radiant also predate the passing of Tanavast which left Honor in pieces. Never mind any Adonalsium spren that might have initially existed.