Shared Compounding

[Kurkistan]

*Looks at Google Books version*

 

I agree that the scene reads like he has only a small amount (though the "Elend's <metal> ran out" line was actually Pewter, so far as I can see). I have certain commitments that stop me from saying "well this obviously means Duralumin adds energy", though, so I'll settle for "it's all super-compressed" or some weird god-metal interaction, for the time being.

[Shardlet]

In the hardcover it says atium.  Shouldn't have been pewter.  He didn't have any basic metals.  All his basic metals came from Preservation fuel direct.  This (direct fueling) started at the beginning of the Marsh fight if I am not mistaken.

[Kurkistan]

And he ran out of Pewter just before the direct fueling began.

[Kadrok]

Has anyone brought this up in this thread yet? Sorry if this is old news, but this is the first time I've seen it...

 

Chaos

There is a way to get a non-powered person to access a metalmind. (Presumably now, with the Mistborn RPG, we know that this may have something to do with Identity.)

Edited September 27, 2013 by Kadrok

[Kurkistan]

Source for that.

 

Interesting. That suggests quite heavily that it is about the storer not having any Identity, rather than the tapper.

[Claincy]

That it does. Thing is, you can only store 90% of any attribute normally and is 10% of an identity little enough to allow others to tap any other metalminds you make during that time? I think there's an extra step needed here though I'm not sure what it is.

[Kurkistan]

Yeah, that's one of those things where we just throw the MAG out the window. Any Feruchemist can store as much as he wants to, normally: probably approaching the limit of 0, but certainly not hitting a wall at 10%.

[Claincy]

10% Is an arbitrary quantity true. But the amount you can store isn't *that* much closer to 100% for some metals. I cannot see storing over 90% of strength or health ending well for the feruchemist.

[Kurkistan]

It wouldn't end well, true, but that's because they would physically die. Nothing stopping them from going all the way to the edge except practicality. There's no reason for Wax not to be able to store 100% (okay, 99.999999999999999%) weight, for instance.

Edited September 28, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Claincy]

Honestly I thought there was a *soft* limit a bit before that though I could have been mistaken. Not trying to use the MAG as a reference here.*I really need to reread alloy of law*. I get the feeling that storing nearly 100% identity could have severe lasting mental consequences at any rate.

[Sabrina Stormshard]

Very interesting idea, I like it!

[Kurkistan]

Thank you.
 
UPDATE:
 
New info from Shardlet:

Shardlet: When burning duralumin to enhance another metal’s burn, does a mistborn get only the sum total of the power of the other metal in a single burst or does he get more than just the sum?

Brandon: I would have to make sure and look, but my original intention was the sum.

Q: Ok, because ethe thing I was wondering about is Elend with the duralumin atium burn because it seemed more than just the sum of a bead of atium.

A: Right, but the thing you have to keep in mind is the thing I’m kind of looking at having it all happen in a moment. So let’s say you have enough steel to burn for an hour. If you reduce a plane to a point it’s infinite, does that make sense. And so it’s very hard to say is it the sum when you are going from a defined amount into a point, I mean a point is infinitely small. Does that make sense?

 
So no, the Duralumin doesn't add any power on top.

-This isn't intended as a dig at Shardlet—not least because he obviously had this discussion in mind when he asked that question—but merely as a resource to anyone who takes a look at this thread down the road, to show that a dispute has been resolved.

[Shardlet]

This is essentially a repost (riposte? ) of my response to your response to the signing report, Kurk.

 

 

So no, the Duralumin doesn't add any power on top.

 

It seems that this will have different effects depending on what metal you are burning.  With steel or iron the effect is going to be more definite.  But, this better explains what happened with Elend and the atium bead.  The effect of that atium burn was compressed into an instant, which yielded an effect that was essentially infinite and let gave him a massive info dump.  With tin, the rush of sensory input would overwhelm your brain.  With steel we see Vin chuck a dozen or so horses and riders without an effective anchor.  With brass or zinc we see control over Kandra and Koloss or complete emotional flatlining or extreming of humans.  With practice, who knows what could be accomplished with duralumin enhanced emotional metals.  Duralumin pewter makes you virtually invulnerable for that instant.

 

Edit: Between these three threads we should get some smashing further discussion.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Shardlet

[Kurkistan]

See my response to this response on the signing thread.

[Shardlet]

I see your response and raise you my own.

[Kurkistan]

UPDATE:

 

So that's a "yes" on the theory.

 

Kurkistan: Could an Augor Compound Health out of a goldmind if its proper owner messed with Identity in the right way?

Brandon: This is possible.

 

This also, as I said in the OP, essentially locks in ye-olde "key–lock" theory for how Feruchemical access works: It seems that having the "wrong" Identity-signature is fundamentally what stops random people from accessing metalminds, rather than simply not having the right one. It seems that metalminds first look for the wrong signature, then give up the goods if they don't find it (either because the metalmind has a weird copy of its Feruchemist's signature or because it's masked by Hemalurgy).

Edited January 22, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Pechvarry]

UPDATE:

 

So that's a "yes" on the theory.

 

 

This also, as I said in the OP, essentially locks in ye-olde "key–lock" theory for how Feruchemical access works: It seems that having the "wrong" Identity-signature is fundamentally what stops random people from accessing metalminds, rather than simply not having the right one. It seems that metalminds first look for the wrong signature, then give up the goods if they don't find it (either because the metalmind has a weird copy of its Feruchemist's signature or because it's masked by Hemalurgy).

 

I don't understand how you are drawing your conclusion.  If the owner (the feruchemist) is the one messing with identity,  he could be removing the lock entirely.  I don't see how this proves anything about how discerning metalminds are themselves.

 

What this does prove is you don't need to be an Aluminum Ferring/Full Feruchemist to access the metalminds of others.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Pechvarry

[Kurkistan]

@Sats

 

Yeah, I think that interpretation would need Brandon to just flat-out be mean to us.

 

@Pech

 

Sorry, that conclusion really does seem to come out of left field, doesn't it? I was relying implicitly on all of the discussion in the thread I linked to in the OP.

 

So to draw the reasoning for my conclusion out a bit:

 

To expand on a somewhat opaque name, the so-called "key–lock" theory holds that metalminds are like keyholes which allow the use of skeleton keys: It's the complexity of improper keys that stops them from working, not their lack of complexity. Each metalmind, then, has some minimum key that will grant access (thus allowing Soulbearers to tap anyone else's metalminds), but allows more complex keys so long as they fit certain criteria. So a key for a specific lock can unlock only that one door, but a skeleton key that's far more simple can get to the whole floor.

-Note that we do have WoB that Feruchemical aluminum allows Feruchemist A to tap another Feruchemist's metalminds: the second Feruchemist needn't be cooperative. This from one of his comments in the MAG.

 

It's not quite as simple as that, though, I think. We also know that Hemalurgists can access the metalminds of their spikes' victims: So an Inquisitor with an hPewter spike giving him Feruchemical gold can access the goldminds of the "donor" Feruchemist. So overlaying some aspect of the Feruchemist onto a different spiritweb can get the job done. This is where I get my "the metalmind looks first for wrong signature" point: the Hemalurgist's spiritweb is obviously quite different from that of the Feruchemist, but the "shape" of his one piece of soul is all that the door cares about.

 

Feruchemical aluminum allows Feruchemists to store/tap their "Identity". It could, potentially, allow them to store/tap different kinds of their Identity (like with Feruchemical tin or Feruchemical copper), but at the end of the day what they're doing is decreasing or increasing the magnitude of some aspect of themselves.

 

Somehow, this allows them to "unlock" their metalminds. It seems highly unlikely that their tapping Identity is going to result in this unlocking, as it would only increase the base complexity of the lock. Therefore, we look to storing Identity as something that allows the metalmind to accept more and more complex/irregular "keys" before it says no: The skeleton keys can get more weird than usual before the metalmind rejects them. This to the point where anyone's Spiritual aspect fails to run afoul of the metalmind.

 

I talk about the metalminds instead of the Feruchemists because the Feruchemist is out of the picture at the point we're talking about. The metalmind of a dead Feruchemist can still be tapped, so it would seem that they metalmind is where all of this decision-making is taking place.

 

---

 

Okay, so that was me brain-dumping from a conversation that took place years ago, so please feel free to call me out if I was unclear/insane at any point during my so-called "explanation".

 

-----

 

I agree on that this proves that others (and likely muggles, even) can access metalminds.

[Pechvarry]

Thank you for taking the time to spell that out.  I'm away from everything important (as usual), but I think you may be reading a bit too deeply into that MAG quote, which is kinda cornerstone to your interpretation.  All the same, I'm not going to disagree with your assertion.  I'm just not sure I'm ready to get behind it.

[Oudeis]

None of the Enhancement Metals are well understood during the days of
the Final Empire, in part because they’re so hard to come by. This and subsequent
metal chapters, and the rules within, are presented so you can have fun
and experiment, rather than as a complete explanation of everything they can
do. To reveal them in full would ruin surprises intended for much later in the
series.
That said, however, consider the implications of Aluminum in Feruchemy.
With proper manipulation, it might be theoretically possible to tap someone
else’s metalminds...

 

If you wish to know what it says.

[Kurkistan]

Thank you for taking the time to spell that out.  I'm away from everything important (as usual), but I think you may be reading a bit too deeply into that MAG quote, which is kinda cornerstone to your interpretation.  All the same, I'm not going to disagree with your assertion.  I'm just not sure I'm ready to get behind it.

 

Fair enough. I may well have overstated my case a bit.

 

@Darnam

 

Thanks for the quote.

[Kadrok]

Kurk and I were discussing this on Steel Ministry, and I thought I'd just chime in with my perspective over here.

 

I don't think an Aluminium Ferring can tap anyone else's metalminds without limit... just the metalminds of other Soulbearers. I'd be surprised if you didn't need the proper ability to access the power Feruchemically, and so in my view while a Soulbearer could get past the identity restriction on a Brute's pewtermind, it wouldn't help them over much given that they don't have the ability to use Pewter Feruchemically in the first place. However, someone burning the identity-fixed metalmind would be accessing the power Allomantically, and so provided the identity restriction is somehow removed, I can see that working, provided they have the Allomantic ability for that metal.

 

 

Kurkistan: Could an Augor Compound Health out of a goldmind if its proper owner messed with Identity in the right way?

Brandon: This is possible.

 

 

This is the way I interpret Brandon's response. Kurk asks if the Augor could compound health from the goldmind, not tap it. Kurk argues that this implies that the Auger (or anyone) could tap the goldmind. I disagree. Basically, my argument is that the Auger has the ability to burn gold, not tap it. I interpret Brandon as saying that once the identity key is set up properly, the Auger can burn the gold Allomantically to get a surge of healing. I don't think Brandon is saying that the hypothetical Auger, who has no Feruchemical ability, could tap an identity rigged metalmind... I think an identity rigged metalmind allows anyone with the ability to use that kind of metalmind to tap it, without the identity restriction that is normally in place.

 

What this does mean is that a Full Feruchemist could, say, identity-rig an Iron mind and give it to a Lurcher or Mistborn, who could then burn it Allomantically as a metal whose power is to increase the Allomancer's weight, simulating some of the useful effects of being a Crasher through Allomancy; the Mistborn could burn Steel, focus on the target, and then burn Feru-Iron to tear down a building, and burning Feru-Gold acts like a health potion. This makes me wonder what the burn rate on the Feru-Metals are... perhaps the reason Rashek needed to be constantly tapping Youth was beause Atium is no good on the slow burn. If Feru-Iron as an Allomantic metal burns at Iron's natural burn rate, it could be practical as an on off thing for putting some extra weight behind pushes and pulls.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Kadrok

[Kurkistan]

This is the better place for the discussion, I think.

 

As I've said, I think the fairly intuitive implication of Brandon's reply is that the Augor could also just tap the metalmind, meaning that just about anyone could tap it. Normally only people who can tap an attribute can compound it, so the implication... I admit that it's possible that that's not how it is, but I find it unlikely.

 

Compounding is a hack, pure and simple. The magic systems aren't really "supposed" to interact. I find it doubtful, then, that one needs to be an Augor in order to access this stored Health. Allomancy is not then "taken into account" when deciding whether someone can access a Feruchemical attribute: Any degree of access for someone who isn't the Feruchemist s unusual. At that point, then, I think, there is no call to isolate Allomantic gold as the reason why the Augor can access any amount of Health in any way from the goldmind.

 

I also think previous/related speculation on how "Feruchemical permissions" likely work supports the "muggles can tap too!" interpretation. 

[Moogle]

At that point, then, I think, there is no call to isolate Allomantic gold as the reason why the Augor can access any amount of Health in any way from the goldmind.

 

The trick seems to me that Augurs can burn gold. Not regular, unaltered gold, but their bodies are designed to burn any gold, including gold charged with health. What happens when a piece of gold is burned and it has a Feruchemical charge is that the Investiture started now gives you health, not visions of potential selves.

 

With this in mind, I don't think Augurs can tap goldminds. I don't think they can get stored health from them. You asked if an Augur could Compound, not tap, which is an important distinction. I suspect the health stored in the goldmind is irrelevant, because the healing comes from the power of creation, not what was stored in the metalmind. The original healing stored in a goldmind that is burned probably just disappears.

 

Burning Feruchemically charged metals is not a multiplicative effect, so I think that the metalmind just forces the Investiture the Allomancer would normally get from burning gold into a copy of whatever attribute was stored in the metalmind. This means that the Augur doesn't obtain health from the metalmind, he obtains health from the Investiture that was forced into the same form as the stored health. No tapping, just Compounding.

 

So I guess I'm not quite following the key-and-lock theory anymore, here, because this is how I'm thinking it works: the Investiture drawn by the Augur won't be forced into health unless the 'new metal' created when you make a goldmind is "lockless" or generic, because the created health is not your health. It's the health of whoever stored the attribute originally. In this regard, there is not a 'Feruchemically charged gold' metal for Allomancers to burn, there's a 'Person X's Feruchemically charged gold'.

 

The health a Feruchemist stores returns them to a Cognitive ideal, and Sazed's ideal health is not Vin's ideal health, so if Vin tries to burn Sazed's goldmind the health properties are not going to 'stick' to her. But a goldmind that stores a more generic, a less 'you', version of you because you're storing Identity at the time can stick partially to someone else. An "unlocked" goldmind, for the purposes of Allomancy, is 'generic person's Feruchemically charged gold'.

 

I'd predict that a goldmind created while you're storing Identity doesn't work as well (some of the stored attribute will be lost when you tap) as a goldmind created while you're regular, because it's not quite based on 'you' anymore. Something to ask Brandon. The answer to this prediction doesn't really give us any information about the theory, though, because it could be that so long as the power can 'stick' to you at all, you'll get the full power and none will be lost.

 

This property is easily applied to all of the attributes that Feruchemists store. Wax's weight is not Vin's weight, but a "blank slate's weight" can be a weight for either of them.

 

Under this theory, the "muggles can tap too!" idea is destroyed. Which is sad, I admit, but it makes more sense to me.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Moogle

[Oudeis]

You asked if an Augur could Compound, not tap.

 

Congratulations, Kurk. You've managed to get me to agree with Moogle.

 

Your question was specific. Could an Augor Compound? His answer was direct. This is possible. Compounding, as we know it, specifically means "using allomancy to burn a feruchemical charge." That's the simplest, most direct, most intuitive interpretation of this answer to this question.

 

Is it still possible that anyone can tap an identity-less metalmind, even if the person possesses no feruchemy? Maybe. Is that in any way suggested or supported by this exchange? Nope.