Brandon's Book 2 reading

[Era]

Could the voidbringers be the evil version of the herolds or the knights radient? And the parshendi just be the foot soldiers?

[The Count]

No one was killed with a Soulcaster:

I tend to agree to be honest. I was trying to explain the glowing 'monster in the safe' comment.

Even without that though there is no indication that all the dead men were enemies, they cold also have been Lord Davar's retainers.

So a shardbearer killed b conventional weapons still fits the scenario broadly.

My money is still on some sort of fabrial in the safe though, even if it s not a soulcaster.

[Cheese Ninja]

I'm going with a large cut gemstone, that's the only thing I can think of that would be filled with enough Stormlight still be seen through the cracks around the closed door of a safe, which tend to shut in a very secure manner without much in the way of gaps. As to why it is a 'monster'? I think it was part of the source of the conflict, and Shallan was the other part. But I can't come up with any halfway decent theories besides using (another) arranged marriage or it being used as payment for the Shardblade itself.

[Shardless]

I may be the only one that thinks this but I do think that the Parshmen are the voidbringers or part of those forces at least. I think they are scared of their God because it is Odium and he takes them over when he is there, or perhaps forces them to a certain song so that they attack.

I think that the Parshendi killed Gavilar because he told them that he was going to free the Parsman and somehow that act would have attracted Odium. Perhaps when the people enslaved the Parshendi the Kights R. gave up defending the common people because they did this terrible act.

This probably belongs on that other thread but I think that the Parshendi are living in or on the ruins of Urithiru. Perhaps Odium is blind to something in those ruins. That fish guy said thst you could only talk about their Gods freely when in a sacref cave. Perhaps the rock or rock with a high level of gems, maked it hard for the Gods to hear people.

Last crazy theory, something had to shstter the plains. Perhaps Urithiru floated in the air and when the Knights R. left because the people were so bad (making the Parshendi slaves), the city fell and broke the plains.

[The Count]

But I can't come up with any halfway decent theories besides using (another) arranged marriage or it being used as payment for the Shardblade itself.

OOOh.... I like this, a deal for a shardblade that went sour....

The only issue I can think of for this is that I am not sure a Gemstone (or even a large Gemheart) would be enough to buy a Shardblade. Aren't they supposed to be pricelesss? I am sure there is a quote in the book that whole kingdoms have been paid for posession of a single blade...

[Kurkistan]

OOOh.... I like this, a deal for a shardblade that went sour....

The only issue I can think of for this is that I am not sure a Gemstone (or even a large Gemheart) would be enough to buy a Shardblade. Aren't they supposed to be pricelesss? I am sure there is a quote in the book that whole kingdoms have been paid for posession of a single blade...

Yes, "priceless," but everything has a price. Like, say, a Soulcaster or seven for a Shardblade? As far as kingdom==Shardblade goes, it was actually that kingdoms have fallen for a single Blade. I would hazard that these are either small kingdoms or that the Blades are merely contributing factors and/or inciting incidents for wars, instead of the entire cause.

[Meg]

Yes, "priceless," but everything has a price. Like, say, a Soulcaster or seven for a Shardblade?

Or a Soulcaster + Shallan for one Shardblade?

[hoser]

This is really quite intriguing. There are so many details that really don't hang together!

Here's one chain:

If Shallan's father wanted to kill "Mother", he could do it anytime. And if he had, Shallan would have seen him as the monster.

Conclusion: Shallan's father didn't kill "Mother".

With all the bodies, there is obviously a conflict. Given that "Mother" seems to have been killed with a Shardblade, either there was an accident or a party to the conflict that was not allied with Shallan's father killed "Mother". I ignore the accident possibility for now because it makes conclusions impossible.

Conclusion: An opponent of Shallan's father had a Shardblade.

What happened to the Shardbearer?

Possibilities:

1. Shardbearer left (but why kill Shallan's mother while leaving her and her father)
   
2. Shardbearer is in the safe (but why would they go inside the safe).
   
3. Shardbearer killed by people using conventional weapons (but why do most of the people who are dead seem to have been killed by conventional weapons).
   
4. Shardbearer killed by something we haven't seen yet, possibly the glowing "monster" in the safe or another Shardbearer.
   

My speculation is that the Shardbearer was in a group opposed to Shallan's father, got killed somehow and that Shallan's father then kept the Shardblade until Shallan killed him and took it for herself.

On top of the other questions:

1. Why does Shallan feel guilty (she must have been involved in the killing somehow)?
   
2. What is the glowing monster in the safe?
   
3. Who are the parties and why are they meeting?
   
4. Did anybody besides Shallan and her father and possibly the "monster" in the safe survive?
   

It will be interesting to see, in a year or so, how our speculations match Brandon's words.

[junior]

So - Stormform??!! Is that what the Parshendi scholar said she discovered at the end of that reading? Obviously, there's much to be discussed regarding what it could be, but it can't be simply related to fighting, since they already know warriorform. My personal guess is that Stormform = ability to use Stormlight, i.e. to become Parshendi Surgebinders. That would make sense; the humans are in the process of discovering the human version of it, i.e. the Knights Radiant.

I finally listened to this, and it triggered a sudden thought...

At the end of the first book, Jasnah discusses the stories about the Voidbringers with Shallan. Jasnah brings Shallan around to the former's way of thinking about the descriptions of the voidbringers - that the smoke and flame are all figurative references to the black and red marbled skin of the Parshmen/Parshendi. But what if the references aren't to their skin?

As Kaladin starts to develop his new powers, he tends to suddenly find himself glowing with Stormlight. He's able to suppress it, but only with a (minor) act of will. What if the "smoke" and "flame" that the old stories speak of are, in fact, a reference to what Stormlight (or an equivalent) looks like while radiating from a Parshendi? If the aura generated were a mixture of cloudy black and red instead of glowing white, then it would generate an appearence very similar to fire wreathed in black smoke.

Also, regarding sending Szeth to kill Gavilar: now we know why. The decision was made that same day, after the peace treaty was already signed, apparently in good faith. Something Gavilar told the Parshendi at the feast made them decide he needed to be killed immediately, and it sounds like it had to do with that sphere of voidlight (for lack of another term) that he gave Szeth, and with "summoning the Parshendi gods" (I think that's what Brandon said in the reading).

Which still leaves another very important question.

The Parshendi could have deflected blame for the whole thing. "It wasn't us! It was a human assassin, after all!" The festivities would have been the perfect cover for anyone to send an assassin after the king. But instead I believe we're told that they admitted sending the assassin, and promptly packed up and left (which also would have been a strong suggester of guilt, even if they hadn't flat out admitted to doing it). They appear to have wanted the treaty, and probably could have maintained it with Elhokar if they'd played dumb. But they didn't.

Why didn't they?

[Kurkistan]

I finally listened to this, and it triggered a sudden thought...

At the end of the first book, Jasnah discusses the stories about the Voidbringers with Shallan. Jasnah brings Shallan around to the former's way of thinking about the descriptions of the voidbringers - that the smoke and flame are all figurative references to the black and red marbled skin of the Parshmen/Parshendi. But what if the references aren't to their skin?

As Kaladin starts to develop his new powers, he tends to suddenly find himself glowing with Stormlight. He's able to suppress it, but only with a (minor) act of will. What if the "smoke" and "flame" that the old stories speak of are, in fact, a reference to what Stormlight (or an equivalent) looks like while radiating from a Parshendi? If the aura generated were a mixture of cloudy black and red instead of glowing white, then it would generate an appearence very similar to fire wreathed in black smoke.

I don't recall Kaladin actually being able to suppress the glow. He usually just draws in less at a time, IIRC. But that's besides the point.

Also, assuming that both Kaladin and Szeth aren't albinos, their glows really shouldn't be white under this logic. But I can see the Parshendi and voidbinding (if they are voidbringers) working a bit differently.

Which still leaves another very important question.

The Parshendi could have deflected blame for the whole thing. "It wasn't us! It was a human assassin, after all!" The festivities would have been the perfect cover for anyone to send an assassin after the king. But instead I believe we're told that they admitted sending the assassin, and promptly packed up and left (which also would have been a strong suggester of guilt, even if they hadn't flat out admitted to doing it). They appear to have wanted the treaty, and probably could have maintained it with Elhokar if they'd played dumb. But they didn't.

Why didn't they?

Honor, perhaps? Even if the Alethi blamed someone else, it still would have been a catastrophe for the Alethi and whoever they decided was at fault. Perhaps the Parshendi didn't want to leave the blame to fall on someone else. Or they just didn't want to be deceptive.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Kurkistan

[junior]

I don't recall Kaladin actually being able to suppress the glow. He usually just draws in less at a time, IIRC. But that's besides the point.

That's right. A bit of misremembering on my part.

Also, assuming that both Kaladin and Szeth aren't albinos, their glows really shouldn't be white under this logic. But I can see the Parshendi and voidbinding (if they are voidbringers) working a bit differently.

That's assuming that the glow color is based on skin tone. But since we don't know the specifics, it's entirely possible that the Parshendi could glow a different color that's only coincidentally the same color as their skin. Or there might be a relationship between the glow color and the color of the Parshendi's skin that doesn't apply to the Alethi.

In any event, there's one more item that I forgot to throw in. If the voidbringers (i.e. Parshendi) had used Stormlight in the past and glowed white like Kaladin, then the old stories probably would have indicated that in at least some cases the voidbringers glowed light instead of dark. Instead they all seem to focus on smoke and flame. The dialogue and train of thought in the sample chapter seem to suggest that the Parshendi are relearning old forms that they knew in the past, which means that this new Storm form of theirs' is one that the humans who wrote the old stories should have been aware of.

[Voidus]

The Voidbringers also hold Stormlight perfectly according to Szeth so they shouldn't be glowing probably.

[Morsk]

The Voidbringers also hold Stormlight perfectly according to Szeth so they shouldn't be glowing probably.

But gems can hold Stormlight for several days, and still give off light. So I think even "perfect" holding doesn't preclude glowing.

Also Szeth said that about Voidbringers with bodies of stone. It's a big mystery how that relates to Parshendi.

[Riceloft]

But gems can hold Stormlight for several days, and still give off light. So I think even "perfect" holding doesn't preclude glowing.

Also Szeth said that about Voidbringers with bodies of stone. It's a big mystery how that relates to Parshendi.

It seems to me that Voidbringers could simply be one of the Parshendi forms they haven't rediscovered yet.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Riceloft

[Voidus]

But gems can hold Stormlight for several days, and still give off light. So I think even "perfect" holding doesn't preclude glowing.

Also Szeth said that about Voidbringers with bodies of stone. It's a big mystery how that relates to Parshendi.

Several days still isn't perfect, I can see your point though.

[Meg]

I'd like to turn back to Shallan. Though I personally am not convinced of her being a murderer (I can't explain, why):

If I understand the interpretation of the reading right, she felt unworthy for her fathers care, what implies that she soon before murdered someone (her stepmother?).

In TWoK she admits (applying access to Shadesmar from the Truthspren), that she killed her father.

If this is right, she would have killed (at least) two persons. Maybe that was already obvious to most of you, then I really apologize for bringing this up.

[lummi]

Maybe gavilar thought that the old gods of the parshendi had huugee gemhearts so he wanted 2 bring them back i think windruner quoted it.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Hmm... chasmfiends have some unique spren.

 

Parshdudes have symbiotic bonds with spren.

 

I'm going to speculate that stormform involves bonding with chasmfiend spren.

[darkanimereal1]

The second reading says that Gavilar told them about a plan that freaked out Eshonai and some other Parshendi so much that they had him assassinated. It doesn't explain how they got Szeth's Oathstone though. If you put two and two together, it seems that Gavilar's plan would return the Parshendi gods somehow.

 

I really like this idea. I want to point out some key things people have said in this thread, then I'll draw a conclusion at the bottom.

 

So - Stormform??!! Is that what the Parshendi scholar said she discovered at the end of that reading? Obviously, there's much to be discussed regarding what it could be, but it can't be simply related to fighting, since they already know warriorform. My personal guess is that Stormform = ability to use Stormlight, i.e. to become Parshendi Surgebinders. That would make sense; the humans are in the process of discovering the human version of it, i.e. the Knights Radiant.

Also, regarding sending Szeth to kill Gavilar: now we know why. The decision was made that same day, after the peace treaty was already signed, apparently in good faith. Something Gavilar told the Parshendi at the feast made them decide he needed to be killed immediately, and it sounds like it had to do with that sphere of voidlight (for lack of another term) that he gave Szeth, and with "summoning the Parshendi gods" (I think that's what Brandon said in the reading). So...maybe at one point, the Parshendi were led by the voidbringers?

I really like this idea. too.

 

Perhaps the revival of their 'old gods' would transform them to an evil Void form, beyond their control, in preparation to be the opposing forces in a Desolation?

 

Agreed.

 

Whatever Gavilar had planned, he probably didn't see it as bad or dangerous himself...? I find it more likely that Gavilar was about to stumble into something bad (releasing powers he didn't understand or know about) rather than Gavilar was secretly plotting something mhwa-ha-ha-ha.

 

Agreed.

 

Anyway, back on topic. If the Parshendi knew about the Black Sphere, and that was the source of their worry then surely they would have given Szeth instructions to do something with it.. or return it to them... or something.

Otherwise, if not for Gavilar's dying words, it would have been found on his body and probably studied by the Artifabrians (it stands out too much to be simply ignored), this would hardly solve the problem.

But then again, the plan seems like it was rushed out and they may not have had time to think it though...

But this also brings me back to another issue... The Parshendi find out that they Must kill Gavilar at the feast and they just happen to have the most dangerous assassin in the world to hand? This is very suspicious. If there was no preplanning involved they they must have known about Szeth's abilities. Otherwise they would be sending a Shin servant to kill a Shardbearer.

Either that or a more disturbing solution is that the Parshendi were given Szeth by someone on the night in question who "vouched" for his ability to do the deed.

Taravangian maybe? Who wanted Gavilar dead presumably for the same reason he now wants Dalinar dead (to stop him uniting the highprinces) and just took advantange of the opportunity to pin it on someone else?

So many thoughts.....

This is an excellent point. We know that Rysn's babsk is was the first non-Shin holder of Szeth's Oathstone. So how did it go from him to the Parshendi? I think it very well could have been the night of. Maybe the work of a 17th shard member or a Herald (I believe there were at least two present that night--Shalash and the drunk man).

 

 

We learned the Parshendi can change forms. Warform, Nimbleform, Workform, Matingform... and the form that Parshmen are in, Slaveform. So Parshmen are not just related to Parshendi, they are the same species. It seems rather unlikely that Parshmen change forms (humans would have noticed that). If they don't take on Matingform, how do they procreate?

 

Yeah, this also really bothered me. The thought only occurred to me recently. I think the idea that they can mate, but not "perfectly" is plausible, but it also kind of reminds me of the (Mistborn)

koloss, which you can control via number of swords. There seems to be an odd resemblance between the "formless" parshmen and the koloss.

 

I may be the only one that thinks this but I do think that the Parshmen are the voidbringers or part of those forces at least. I think they are scared of their God because it is Odium and he takes them over when he is there, or perhaps forces them to a certain song so that they attack.

I think that the Parshendi killed Gavilar because he told them that he was going to free the Parsman and somehow that act would have attracted Odium. Perhaps when the people enslaved the Parshendi the Kights R. gave up defending the common people because they did this terrible act.

This probably belongs on that other thread but I think that the Parshendi are living in or on the ruins of Urithiru. Perhaps Odium is blind to something in those ruins. That fish guy said thst you could only talk about their Gods freely when in a sacref cave. Perhaps the rock or rock with a high level of gems, maked it hard for the Gods to hear people.

Last crazy theory, something had to shstter the plains. Perhaps Urithiru floated in the air and when the Knights R. left because the people were so bad (making the Parshendi slaves), the city fell and broke the plains.

 

This is the theory I back. 100%. I don't think that the parshmen/Parshendi are COMPLETELY of Odium, but I do think that Odium can force them into some form (which may or may not be stormform) which would force them to become voidbringers. Another Mistborn spoiler:

Just like how the kandra weren't particularly BAD, it was just that they could be influenced by Ruin via their spikes.

 

As for Urithiru, I'm on the "Urithiru existed only in Shadesmar" bandwagon, which Brandon said IS possible. That would explain why you can't walk there. But I am still very intrigued what "shattered" the plains. I also feel like there could be a tie between Urithiru's location in Shadesmar and the Shattered Plains.

 

It seems to me that Voidbringers could simply be one of the Parshendi forms they haven't rediscovered yet.

 

Agreed.

[darkanimereal1]

The world ended and Shallan was to blame.

 

"Pretend it never happened," her father whispered, he wiped something wet from her cheek, his thumb came back red. "I'll protect you." 

 

Was the room shaking? No, that was her, trembling. She looked up at her father, moving with a sudden jerk. She couldn't blink, her eyes were frozen open.

 

No... no... This affection wasn't right. A monster should not be held in love, a monster who killed, who murdered. 

No... But she could not move.

 

Father stepped over the body of a woman in white. Little blood there. It was the other men doing most of the bleeding.

Mother lay face down so Shallan couldn't see the eyes, the horrible eyes.

Almost, Shallan could imagine that the lullaby was the end to a nightmare.

That it was nice[night?], and that she had awakened screaming. That her father was singing to her sleep. As he'd done when she was a child.

 

They passed father's safe on the wall. It glowed brightly, light streaming from the cracks around the closed front. A monster was inside.

This isn't the whole passage, but bits that I want to talk about.

Technically, I feel like we should have a totally different topic for this, since this thread is somewhat bi-polar, but whatever. 

I think Shallan used the Shardblade to do the killing. Although I've read a lot of people disagreeing and thinking she's just the reason behind it, why would she call herself "A monster who killed, who murdered." It's one thing to say "I'm to blame" for someone's death. It's another to specifically call yourself a murderer. Unless she's as misguided as Simba is by Scar right after his father's death (which is plausible) ... (lol for a Disney reference when discussing a room full of corpses), I really don't think she would call herself a murderer. That's on top of the blood that her father wipes from her face. This is especially because I assume she's about 10-12 at this point. Still old enough to recall things from childhood, but not nearly as old as she is now.

 

I also think that ALL of the corpses were killed by shardblade. Right after reading this excerpt Brandon answers this question:

QUESTION:

If you slash somebody with a Shardblade, kill them, and then cut them again, will the Shardblade make them bleed?

BRANDON:

Yes. Just like a chasmfiend once it dies, they are chopping it apart with Shardblades.

 

If you ask me, that seems to imply that all of the bodies were killed by shardblade, and whoever was wielding it just continued to hack away afterwards.

 

I'm not sure which mother is dead, although during my first read-through of this I just sort of assumed it was her birth mother. I have to take a closer look at this.

 

Honestly, the idea of Shallan calling herself a "monster" makes me think that she's the one who caused the carnage. The fact that her "mother" is not all cut up kind of implies that it was (maybe) an accident that she hit her mother, so she didn't go insane on her with the blade.

 

I guess my question is this: I know a lot of you don't think it was Shallan who did this, but if it were somehow her then how did she get the shardblade? I had always assumed her father had one and when she killed him she had gotten it, but now I'm unsure.

 

I definitely agree, though, that she didn't know about the soulcaster at this point.

 

OR, as an alternative, someone killed her mother and Shallan went whacko on the killer, killed him, took the shardblade, and continued to create the carnage. But how would a 10 year old kill someone with a shardblade? I dunno...

Edited April 23, 2013 by darkanimereal1

[EmanEmal]

But how would a 10 year old kill someone with a shardblade?

 

A group of people infiltrate Shallan's family home trying to steal something or assassinate someone or whatever and one of them comes across Shallan and her mom. The mom resists him somehow so he summons a shard blade and kills her. Shallan ends up hiding and getting ignored for the moment largely because she is seen as an unimportant traumatized little ten year old girl. The guy unsummons his shard blade and goes about his business. Shallan finds a sharp implement of some sort, freaks out, and stabs the guy to death while he is not paying attention takes the shard blade and goes crazy on the people who come in after hearing the commotion. Then she calms down a bit and notices that those were actual people she knew and not crazy killers so she breaks down, drops the shard blade, it disappears , she cries and calls her self a monster and a murder until her father shows up.

 

Or something like that

...

But probably something totally different.

 

[darkanimereal1]

Or something like that

...

But probably something totally different.

 

 

My feelings exactly. lol

 

 

ALSO. I completely forgot to mention while I was talking about stormform/Parshendi/Gavilar:

 

As far as the black stone goes, the theory that makes most sense to me is that the sphere is a physical manifestation of Odium similar to Atium or Lerasium. I know that (as far as we know) no one burns metals on Roshar, but that just makes the most sense to me, particularly if it's the reason that the Parshendi had him killed. Also, like MadRand said, I think it odd that the Parshendi wouldn't tell Szeth to retrieve it. But then again, maybe Gavilar was vague in describing what he had or whatever his idea was. I doubt the Parshendi knew that he had the sphere--they just knew that he knew too much.

[EmanEmal]

maybe Gavilar was vague in describing what he had or whatever his idea was. I doubt the Parshendi knew that he had the sphere--they just knew that he knew too much.

Or maby that the stone itself wasn't the problem and they killed Gavilar because he knew how to get these stones. If this

the sphere is a physical manifestation of Odium similar to Atium or Lerasium.

is true then it seems Gavilar figured  out how to rip out and store bits of Odium. The Parshendi don't have the means to put the Odium chunk back so they just dicide to kill Gavilar and stop him from gathering more and reviveing Odium.

 

 

Also on a completely different note

 

Did anyone else notice that when Eshonai is angry the anger spren are discribed as looking like lightning on the ground

but

privously they were discribed as looking like pools of bubbling blood.

 

Is this a diffrence between Parshendi attracted spren and human attracted spren or is it just a diffrent kind of anger spren? Personaly I hope it is the first one.

[PhilV]

Or maby that the stone itself wasn't the problem and they killed Gavilar because he knew how to get these stones. If this

is true then it seems Gavilar figured  out how to rip out and store bits of Odium. The Parshendi don't have the means to put the Odium chunk back so they just dicide to kill Gavilar and stop him from gathering more and reviveing Odium.

 

 

Also on a completely different note

 

Did anyone else notice that when Eshonai is angry the anger spren are discribed as looking like lightning on the ground

but

privously they were discribed as looking like pools of bubbling blood.

 

Is this a diffrence between Parshendi attracted spren and human attracted spren or is it just a diffrent kind of anger spren? Personaly I hope it is the first one.

 

That's just fascinating, that spren would look different to people of different cultures. Possibly due to different cognitive ideals? That is to say, my shared cultural representation of anger may be blood boiling, or lightning, or something completely different.

So it's Platonism, but with the idea that it's relative to a culture (or individual).

 

Kind of calls to mind the bits in Warbreaker

about Returned taking on the form of the current culture's ideals of beauty. Brings in the Jungian concept of collective unconscious that I know Brandon has referenced.

[Kurkistan]

It could also be the case that anger-spren have several forms for the same people, much like Windspren show up as ribbons, blowing leaves, etc. All representations of wind, in one way or another, just as lightning and boiling blood are both fair representations of anger.

 

We're fairly sure it's not Jung in this case, Phil. Brandon usually restricts Jungian stuff to talking about the Parshendi. Look more at Plato and "cognitive ideals or concepts which have taken on literal personification over time."