Burning Question about Burning Eyeballs (Spoilers for WoR)

[Lord Pifferdoo]

So while I was standing upon a large rock, looking out to the horizon and wondering what to do with Lady Pifferdoo for Valentines Day (PM with ideas because I'm stumped) I began to think about why people slain by shardblade have their eyes burned out of their sockets. It seems very strange, compared to other shardblade wounds. Normally, the killed bits turn grey and die, having their spiritual connection to the rest of the body and soul severed. But when a shardblade wound passes through the spine or the brain, the individual is killed and their eyes 'burn' out. This seems strange to me, but I have a theory, fueled by horizon staring, what I know about eye-color, and Diet Coke (don't hate me 'cause you ain't me).

 

 

Assumptions:

 

1. Non-Radiant Roshari people have normal eyeballs with normal pigmentation

2. When eyeballs are "burned out" there is no fire involved, only a blackening and a wither II effect

3. Individuals have souls, and when those individuals die, their souls leave their bodies.

4. Shardblades, living or dead, 'kill' by severing one's spiritual tie to one's own body. The body itself doesn't die organically. But without the soul to keep things motivated, the body starts to give up and die on it's own, slowly. This is why Nale was able to revive Szeth, and why it was so important that Szeth's brain hadn't died.

5. When a Shardblade is "summoned", spiritual energy is spent to "revive" the blade.

 

I theorize that when a living thing is slain with a Shardblade, the reason their eyeballs burn out is because the energy released when a spiritual connection is cut, similar to how energy is released with chemical bonds are broken.  The reason that the energy is focused through the eyes has two sub-theories:

 

A - "The eyes are the window to the soul", and windows are fragile. Think of the spiritual side of people flowing through them like a river underneath the ground. Eyes are like the point where that river is most close to the surface, forming something akin to an underground pond or maybe a spring. Realmatically Speaking, just like how Shadesmar is the closest point in the Cognitive Realm to the Physical Realm, an individual's eyes are the closest point in the Physical Realm to the Spiritual Realm. 

 

B - Because of how closely related the Cognitive Realm and Spiritual Realm are, there is a sort of "weak bind point" of those two Realms inside of a person, and that bind point manifests as the part of a human where they observe the most and take in data from the surrounding area. *The problem with this theory is that non-human's eyes burn out as well, and they don't rely on sight for data collecting. A gruesome experiment to conduct would be to slay an individual who had been blind their entire life and see if their eye's burned out. 

 

~IRL BIOLOGY WOOOOOEEEEEEOOOOO~

 

Now, human eye color was once all brownish or greenish or brownish-greenish. Thanks to a mutation in an individual in Northern Europe, however, certain members of the population have blue eyes (including myself). In fact, everyone that has blue eyes can be traced back to this one individual. Brown-eyed and green-eyed people have various pigments that cause the colors seen in their eyes. Blue eyes (and various light shades of these eyes) are a result of a reduced amount or lack of pigmentation. 

 

~BACK TO THE COSMERE *TARDIS NOISE*~

 

Shardblades must have a ton of Spiritual Energy, because Honor seems to be very tied to the Spiritual Realm and the spren that bonded with the Knights Radiant were a combination of Honor and Cultivation. (I'm not going to delve into non-Roshari Shardblades until I finish this post) Either that, or just the act of having an object completely knackered with Investiture gives it the ability to sever spiritual bonds, thus releasing stored Spirtual Energy, thus eyeball-burning.

 

When an individual bonds a Shardblade, it makes sense that the summoning of the Blade expends some Spiritual Energy, presumably from the anchor gem through the user. This explains the queasiness that Dalinar felt when wielding his Blade in Way of Kings. Odium could be manipulating Shardbearers, however, with the addition of the Thrill. The Thrill of battle and fighting overwhelms the loss of Spiritual Energy, and makes it unnoticeable.

 

The energy expended when summoning a Shardblade causes a Shardbearer's eyes to slowly light up. The process of becoming Lighteyed works by "burning" away pigmentation in the eyes. The energy added to an individual comes from the anchor gem's Stormlight. Individual's eyes won't gradually change; eye color changes in increments as the Shardblade is summoned, and kept 'alive'. I believe there is a quote in Words of Radiance where someone remarks to Moash that the longer he keeps his Shardblade out or the more times he summons it, the quicker the Lighteye-ing process.

 

This also explains how Kaladin's healing doesn't fix his Lighteyed-ness. There is a ton of Spiritual energy going through Kal when he Radiants up, and his eyes reflect that. However, if Kal does not use a ton of Stormlight for a while, his eyes return to it's natural, Dark-eyed state. I believe that this is his natural Stormlight healing overcoming the eye-pigmentation burning thing through it's attempts to restore Kal to his Realmatic Homeostatis. 

 

----------

 

This is my first official theory post. I would appreciate some feedback, and I would be happy to answer any questions about my theory. Bonus points if you can disprove. But don't disprove it too quickly.

 

I'll probably do a post about how Rayleigh Scattering pertains to this, but for now, I'm sleepy.

 

Your Lord and Pifferness, Lord Pifferdoo

 

 

 

 

 

[Moogle]

Assumptions:

 

1. Non-Radiant Roshari people have normal eyeballs with normal pigmentation

2. When eyeballs are "burned out" there is no fire involved, only a blackening and a wither II effect

3. Individuals have souls, and when those individuals die, their souls leave their bodies.

4. Shardblades, living or dead, 'kill' by severing one's spiritual tie to one's own body. The body itself doesn't die organically. But without the soul to keep things motivated, the body starts to give up and die on it's own, slowly. This is why Nale was able to revive Szeth, and why it was so important that Szeth's brain hadn't died.

5. When a Shardblade is "summoned", spiritual energy is spent to "revive" the blade.

 

A few comments here...

 

1. I doubt this very much. Rosharan eyes seem to be particularly dark as a default, suggesting they've got some different eye color mechanics going on. And when Kaladin's eyes changed to blue, I doubt they lost pigment, particularly considering they would have regained it when his eyes lost their blue color later.

4. Not sure on this one. I think it's more likely the soul itself is consumed, rather than the soul's connection to the body, because Nightblood does a similar grey limb effect, and, well, we know how hungry it is. I also disagree that the body dies slowly - as far as I know, the 'dead limbs turn gray' effect is instant, much like the draining of color in Awakening. I don't know if the limbs are actually dead and require amputation and what, though.

5. Shardblades don't require gemstones to function, which suggests they don't need any outside Investiture at all to turn into/out of Blade form. It just seems like they're moving through the Realms. Whether or not this requires power is up for debate. The only thing gemstones do on a Blade is allow you to bond it, and that gem doesn't need to have Stormlight, as Navani explains.

 

Other general thoughts: I'll buy that eyes are the "window to the soul" bit, because the eyes seem to be the thing that change most readily on Roshar as a result of Spiritual changes. (They also function as bindpoints in Hemalurgy to further cement this fact.)

 

Not sure on if the reason eyeballs burn is because of a release of Spiritual energy, but perhaps. (I'm not even really sure what Spiritual energy is or if it exists.)

 

Not sure why Honor is supposed to be particularly tied to the Spiritual, or where that came from. Unless you mean in general, because yeah the Shards are in all three Realms. I don't know why he'd be particularly in the Spiritual relative to other Shards, though?

 

An interesting theory overall. I'm not convinced, but I am not un-convinced either. Brandon's a chem major, and the idea of Spiritual bonds being broken releasing their energy is totally something I could see him doing.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Moogle

[Lord Pifferdoo]

Response!

 

What if Roshar never had the gene mutation for blue eyes? The reason Kal's eyes regained their pigment might be his healing trying to return him to his normal state. It takes a while for his eyes to heal because he uses Stormlight to heal his eyes. (Maybe Knights Radiant just start to passively collect Stormlight?)

 

I'm saying that while limbs cut by a shardblade are spiritually dead, they aren't biologically dead. That's why healing Szeth before his brain died was so important.

 

I didn't know that Stormlight wasn't required to make the gems work. Maybe, then, the gemstone acts like a focus for someone's innate Spirtual energy (or maybe Investiture) and a tiny bit is expended 'reviving' the Shardblade from wherever it goes when not in use. Perhaps the energy is expended forming the bond to the physical word, and then returned when that Shardblade is dismissed. 

 

What if Hemalurgic Bind Points are all places on the body where the Realms are the strongest? Maybe the reason why Inquisitors see little blue outlines is because they are looking at the Physical Realm through the Spiritual Realm, like looking at someone while you are underwater.

 

I'm basically saying that there's a connection between eye color lightening and eyeball burning.

 

I kinda assumed that Honor was a bit more focused in the Spirtual Realm, considering that a lot of the magic associated with him involves manipulating Spirtual Aspects and the whatnot.

 

I did not know that Brandon was a Chem major. There's hope for me yet!

[Moogle]

What if Roshar never had the gene mutation for blue eyes? The reason Kal's eyes regained their pigment might be his healing trying to return him to his normal state. It takes a while for his eyes to heal because he uses Stormlight to heal his eyes. (Maybe Knights Radiant just start to passively collect Stormlight?)

 

Possible. We really don't know much here. I'm not really satisfied by the "Stormlight 'heals' his eyes" explanation because his eyes change color either when he summons his Blade or when he holds any amount of Stormlight. I think the effect happens because the bond between Kal + Syl temporarily strengthens whenever he does those two actions, and the Physical realm decides to reflect this because the Radiants compress the Realms just a little. (Syl apparently is what channels Stormlight to him, because by WoB she got hurt giving Kaladin his last breath of Stormlight when he fell into the chasm.)

 

As to the lack of a mutation for blue eyes: not sure here, but I am very doubtful this is the whole story. All the characters are described as having very dark eyes. Wit's regular blue eyes mark him as a lighteyes, which certainly suggests they don't have the mutation, but a person with green eyes in our modern world should have eyes that are light enough to be considered lighteyes on Roshar. This suggests their entire eye color pigment is artifically darkened by Rosharan Investiture or something to me. They're always talking about how you can only tell someone has dark green eyes or whatever if you look at them in the right light. And apparently some people have dark violet eyes, which again suggests entirely different eye genetics and general Investiture muckery. Keep in mind this is my personal, and quite possibly wrong, speculation, and it is based on my hazy recollections of eye color readings during the book, though. (Definite overuse of commas there for me.)

 

I'm saying that while limbs cut by a shardblade are spiritually dead, they aren't biologically dead. That's why healing Szeth before his brain died was so important.

 

Again, this is possible, but I'm not sure. Nalan specifically says he was only able to revive Szeth during a short window because otherwise his brain would be too decayed. This implies it has something to do with your Cognitive aspect/Cognitive shadow leaving as the brain breaks down to me. We have very little to go on here, but it's interesting hearing a different perspective on this.

 

I did not know that Brandon was a Chem major. There's hope for me yet!

 

Well, I kinda misspoke. He was in university, doing biochemistry, but dropped out to become a writer. His about page lists this. Still, I definitely think his experience helps his magic system, and it definitely makes me think the loss of Spiritual bonds causing energy to be released could be a thing.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

Shallan has blue eyes, so they have that gene on Roshar. 

[Moogle]

Shallan has blue eyes, so they have that gene on Roshar. 

 

Shallan is a lighteyes, which is to say descended from a Radiant (not 100% confirmed but basically it is), so I wouldn't say they have the same genes as we do on Earth for blue eyes necessarily. More likely to be sDNA rather than DNA. I don't know whether or not this results in actual changes to her eye pigment.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

Shallan is a lighteyes, which is to say descended from a Radiant (not 100% confirmed but basically it is), so I wouldn't say they have the same genes as we do on Earth for blue eyes necessarily. More likely to be sDNA rather than DNA. I don't know whether or not this results in actual changes to her eye pigment.

 

 

That is assuming the Lost Radiants kept their light eyes after they broke their Oaths. Mind that Teft calls Kal's blue eyes 'paler than any Brightlord's'. Brandon said there aren't hereditary surgebinders, so whatever changes happen in the sDNA probably won't be inherited to the children. And if you tie eyecolor with, then lighteyes aren't descendant from the KR. In favor of the latter I can add the lack of orange/red/grey eyes that some Orders likely had.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Aleksiel

[Moogle]

That is assuming the Lost Radiants kept their light eyes after they broke their Oaths. Mind that Teft calls Kal's blue eyes 'paler than any Brightlord's'. Brandon said there aren't hereditary surgebinders, so whatever changes happen in the sDNA probably won't be inherited to the children. And if you tie eyecolor with, then lighteyes aren't descendant from the KR. In favor of the latter I can add the lack of orange/red/grey eyes that some Orders likely had.

 

I don't see any reason to assume that the only descendents of the Radiants came about post-Recreance.

 

Special colored eyes (though grey is a color passed on, Taravangian has grey eyes) definitely is a point against the theory, but your children don't always end up with the same colored eyes as you. I can't recall the example off-hand, I think it was Elhokar who had yellow eyes originally despite his father having green and his mother having violet, and though Elhokar's eyes were later corrected to green eyes I'm not necessarily sure this is an error rather than something Brandon/Peter wanted corrected just to make Elhokar more like Gavilar. (Jasnah has violet eyes like her mother, too, though...)

 

Changes made to sDNA via Hemalurgy can be passed on to your children, so it would make sense that changes to eye color caused by a spren bond would also similarly be passed on. Even if you later remove the spike, your children would still have the sDNA. Also: the children of someone who bonds a dead Shardblade can also apparently be lighteyed, though I can't find the quote for that. I may be wrong on that.

 

It would also make sense for the Radiant's descendents also had darker eyes than Kaladin himself. Allomancy weakens through the generations, so it would make sense for eye colors to do the same if they are indeed caused by sDNA.

 

Sorry to go on at such length about this, but I find Stormlight's eye color genetics to be fascinating and love the theories around the phenomenon of lighteyes/darkeyes.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

 

I don't see any reason to assume that the only descendents of the Radiants came about post-Recreance.

 

Special colored eyes (though grey is a color passed on, Taravangian has grey eyes) definitely is a point against the theory, but your children don't always end up with the same colored eyes as you. I can't recall the example off-hand, I think it was Elhokar who had yellow eyes originally despite his father having green and his mother having violet, and though Elhokar's eyes were later corrected to green eyes I'm not necessarily sure this is an error rather than something Brandon/Peter wanted corrected just to make Elhokar more like Gavilar. (Jasnah has violet eyes like her mother, too, though...)

 

Changes made to sDNA via Hemalurgy can be passed on to your children, so it would make sense that changes to eye color caused by a spren bond would also similarly be passed on. Even if you later remove the spike, your children would still have the sDNA. Also: the children of someone who bonds a dead Shardblade can also apparently be lighteyed, though I can't find the quote for that. I may be wrong on that.

 

It would also make sense for the Radiant's descendents also had darker eyes than Kaladin himself. Allomancy weakens through the generations, so it would make sense for eye colors to do the same if they are indeed caused by sDNA.

 

 

(this new quoting system is so weird and sort of annoying, can we go to the old one and does it irritate only me?)

 

So, the descendants eyes got only slightly darker? I'd rather go with something like 'dark green/violet eyed are KR descendants' than agree KR children had a shade or two darker light eyes.

 

Going back to Dalinar's visions in WoK he commented on a man being darkeyed, yet being treated like a brightlord; on Recreance he commented on the unnaturally pale blue eyes of a former Radiant. When Dalinar met Nohadon, he did not comment on eyecolor, so it's logical to conclude there was nothing off about Nohadon's eyes. The latter spoke of soulcasters and surgebinders without mentioning any relations to them, so his eyes were regular light. This admittedly is not a solid proof of light eyes existing independently from the KR (though I wonder if pre-KR era surgebinders also had extremely pale eyes).

 

Has it ever been stated lighteyes were children of KR? What are your reasons of arguing there were no light eyes before the KR?

Edited February 11, 2015 by Aleksiel

[Lord Pifferdoo]

Because I'm not sure if lighteyes that weren't Knights Radiant ever showed up in Dalinar's visions.

 

Maybe the whole Recreance things twisted the bonds the Knights had and gave them all these wacky side effects.

 

Maybe lighteyes are descendants of the Squires.

 

Or maybe all the lighteyes are descended from the guys that first picked up the Shardblades. 

[Shlee]

Not to mention there's an entire country/culture of "lighteyes" and an entire country without them:

 

"There weren’t people with light eyes in the Makabaki region, though they had kings, and practically everyone in Iri had light yellow eyes." - WoR

 

My personal theory: Surgebinding gives you supernaturally light eyes "lighter than any king" due to investiture. We haven't yet seen any confirmation that I'm aware of that this is a permanent condition. "Regular" light eyes will also change to the proper surgebinding color when holding stormlight. Both light and dark eyes are genetic (although in a different way than ours, since you can wind up with one light and one dark eye). Bonding a "dead" shardblade can give you "regular" light eyes, but not the true supernatural ones. I think this is a side-effect of the bonding process (pure speculation).  Alethi social constructs are a leftover from a time when "lighteyes" actually meant someone with supernaturally light eyes, aka surgebinders, but in the however-many-hundreds-of-years they've been gone, has been replaced by "regular" light eyes, descendants of people who naturally genetically had light eyes and of those people who picked up shardblades post-Recreance.

[Lord Pifferdoo]

Is there any other main difference between Lighteyes and Darkeyes? This could be another situation like the Nobles and the Skaa in Mistborn, though I kinda doubt it.

[natc]

The weirdest thing, is how dead shardblades still affect eye color, but Kaladin can sustain a bond for years without anything happening, then when he finally swears to the third windrunner ideal only gets a temporary but drastic change in color. And even that seems to have been triggered by the massive amount of surgebinding only.

Edited February 11, 2015 by natc

[Lord Pifferdoo]

The weirdest thing, is how dead shardblades still affect eye color, but Kaladin can sustain a bond for years without anything happening, then when he finally swears to the third windrunner ideal only gets a temporary but drastic change in color.

 

Maybe it's like speaking that third ideal was like the straw that broke the camel's glowing, Invesisture-infused back? Like there was this buildup of energy that couldn't be used, but once Kaladin's spirit aligned itself in the right way (Kal turned into the right triangle for the block game that is life) enough energy could be used at once to cause such a drastic change.

[Shlee]

The weirdest thing, is how dead shardblades still affect eye color, but Kaladin can sustain a bond for years without anything happening, then when he finally swears to the third windrunner ideal only gets a temporary but drastic change in color. And even that seems to have been triggered by the massive amount of surgebinding only.

 

I don't pretend to understand why the dead shardblades affect eye color, but I think it has to do with the bonding process, and even then it's slow, if we look at Moash's example. Just having the blade isn't enough. You have to bond it.

 

In regards to Kaladin - I think eye color change is directly related to surgebinding, not the bond itself. He's only surgebinding very small amounts in the early days, and I think his eyes are probably lightening whenever he does so, but it's not enough to be noticeable. However, after he says the second Oath - and draws in what is obviously more Investiture than we've ever seen him draw before, his eyes change. I think this has less to do with the Oath per se, and more to do with the amount of surgebinding he does while rescuing Dalinar. 

 

“We’re still darkeyes, Moash.”

“Not you,” Skar said from his other side. “I saw your eyes during the—”

“Stop!” Kaladin said. He took a deep breath. “Just stop. No more talk of that.”

This is from Chapter 2 of WoR when they are walking around the barracks, the day after saving Dalinar's army. Well before Kaladin speaks the third oath. And when the comment is made by Teft about Kaladin's eyes being "lighter than any king" he's just floated down from the clouds after the battle with Szeth. I do think that the effects take longer to fade the lighter his eyes get, but I still haven't seen any textual proof that it's a permanent condition (further supported by the SA3 Kaladin chapter excerpt we have, if it remains canon).

 

I think this is the reason we haven't seen a noticeable change in Shallan yet - she's still doing relatively minor surgebinding in just about every scene we've seen her in, and her eyes are already "light" so I think it's going to take a higher level of investiture on her part before someone in-world notices a change enough to remark on it.

[Moogle]

Has it ever been stated lighteyes were children of KR? What are your reasons of arguing there were no light eyes before the KR?

 

It's not been confirmed. Reasons offhand:

• Lighteyes were not leaders as far back as Dalinar's visions (Feverstone keep). Darkeyes had the ability to be in charge. This was surprising to Dalinar, so it should be surprising to us.
• Dalinar never sees any lighteyed peasants in his visions when lighteyes are not in charge, which is statistically unlikely if they're just regular genetics.
• Eye color is weird on Roshar, and not at all similar to Earth or the other planets in the cosmere. Roshar is the odd one out, here. Scadrial's okay, Sel's okay, Nalthis is okay. This suggests something special is going on with why regular people can have yellow eyes, or violet eyes.
• Regular genetics on Roshar seem to me to leave the entire population with very oddly dark eyes. Their "dark green" is not the same as green in our life, the same as their dark violet is not the same in our world as something like Elizabeth Taylor has (note: no idea if photoshopped, as far as I know it's natural). We don't have a "dark violet in the right light", like Dunny, which suggests to me a lack of strong innate Investiture on Roshar means you get dark eyes - not dark eyes like we have in our real world, but genuinely dark eyes.
• We have an obvious source of strange lighteyedness: Shardblades. Every Surgebinder's eye color changes (at least temporarily; I don't think it's a very big stretch to say it'll become permanent for Kaladin later). Every person who bonds a Shardblade changes. These eye colors are odd, like red (presuming Dustbringers get red eyes) or yellow or violet, which corresponds strongly with the fact that lighteyes in general have odd eye colors. Surgebinders in particular have super bright eyes.
• The fact that there are not ten eye colors (we're missing red and a few others), can be explained by a few factors: 1) Spiritual genetics are hard, and quite possibly recessive. If a Dustbringer has a child with a non-Dustbringer, their red eyes could easily be drowned out. 2) Anyone with red eyes would likely be killed and hunted down out of fear of being associated with Voidbringers. Other colors may be similar. At the very least, they'd have a harder time finding love, giving us a strong selection effect. 3) Radiants of some orders decided not to have children, for whatever reason.
• Lighteyes came to rule for a reason. If light eyes were just associated with genetics, it is rather unlikely they'd end up as a ruling caste. Something important would have to happen for the color of your eyes to become all-important. Like, say, light eyes being associated with the Radiants. Wit notes that people have a good reason to have people with light eyes rule them at the end of WoK. (This isn't strong evidence that they pass it on, but if they did pass it on it would explain why lighteyed children became in charge.)
• As a different idea, countering the previous point: after the Recreance, if those with Shards started having lighteyed children, they'd naturally end up in charge beause people with Shardblades are unstoppable and the people who ended up with them are not nice people.
• The passing on of sDNA is entirely a thing we've seen before. Mistings having children can have Misting children, as can those with Hemalurgic spikes. You get some odd sDNA as a Surgebinder (reflecting in the color of your eyes changing, like a spike can change your physical form), so passing it on should not be out of the ordinary.

This issue is complicated by the Heralds. Shallash, for example, has super pale violet eyes, when they should be garnet, or dun. Why? I have no clue. Her eyes match the descriptions of Surgebinders. Perhaps Stormlight "savants" get this effect on their eyes? If so, why didn't "Taln"? Did the place Shallash and the Heralds originally come from have weird eye colors?

 

Iri is also very weird, considering everyone there has yellow eyes and gold (actual gold apparently) hair. Don't know what's going on there, but I expect there's a supernatural reason.

 

As to Nohadon: I think he was a Surgebinder (my mind was changed on this topic at some point), so I have little to say regarding his eye color and his status. Keep in mind his palace was rocking the Surgebinder chart on the ceiling, and he had gold thread in his hair forming the Double Eye of the Almighty. He speaks easily of the Nahel bond, and Dalinar's (Karm's) Surgebinders.

“I can read your disagreement in your face,” the regal man said. “It’s all right, Karm. I realize that my thoughts on this subject are unconventional. Perhaps the rest of you are right, perhaps our abilities are proof of a divine election. But if this is true, should we not be more wary of how we act?”

Even if he were not a Surgebinder, by Nohadon's time there'd have been plenty of Surgebinders who could have passed on their eye color.

 

Either way, I can't present a proof on it, I can just post the various arguments and ideas that have occurred to me as I've examined the issue in depth. I consider it quite likely that the original lighteyes were the children of Surgebinders/Shardwielders, around 75% at this point. You're welcome to disagree on this - it's more of a weak-to-moderately supported theory for me at this point than anything.

 

---

 

Regarding Shardblades: I think the easiest explanation is that your eyes become permanently colored with a very strong bond, and the gemstone on the hilts of Shardblades provides a sort of Hemalurgy-like effect and serves to form that very strong bond. I'd guess that the bond between a dead Shardblade and a wielder is stronger than Kal's + Syl's, for example, based purely on eye color. (Not that this means anything significant; the wielders should just be more tightly bound. Not sure if we can test this.)

Edited February 11, 2015 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

The Lost Radiants are considered traitors to humanity, corrupted and even evil. Why would their descendants become the ruling class? If anything, they should be the ones oppressed, not the other way around. Also, it's unclear when the light/dark eyed system first appeared and how it became part of Vorinism. 

[Moogle]

The Lost Radiants are considered traitors to humanity, corrupted and even evil. Why would their descendants become the ruling class? If anything, they should be the ones oppressed, not the other way around. Also, it's unclear when the light/dark eyed system first appeared and how it became part of Vorinism. 

 

Entirely possible. Wit seems to think there's a good reason, though:

Perhaps Wit should have been bemused by the stock these people put in something as simple as eye color, but he had been many places and seen many methods of rule. This didn’t seem any more ridiculous than most others.

And, of course, there was a reason the people did what they did. Well, there was usually a reason. In this case, it just happened to be a good one.

 

And Kaladin muses that it may be due to a memory of the Radiants:

Kaladin turned away. He’d hoped his eyes wouldn’t change. The truth, that they had, made him uncomfortable. It said worrisome things. He didn’t want to believe that lighteyes had any grounds upon which to build the oppression.

They still don’t, he thought, infusing the gemstones in the lanterns as Sigzil instructed him. Perhaps the lighteyes rule because of the memory, buried deeply, of the Radiants. But just because they look a little like Radiants doesn’t mean they should have been able to oppress everyone.

 

The only way I think Wit's comment makes sense is if the lighteyes were in some way associated with the Radiants. It could be something else, I guess. We have too little information to say for sure.

[Aleksiel]

Entirely possible. Wit seems to think there's a good reason, though:

Perhaps Wit should have been bemused by the stock these people put in something as simple as eye color, but he had been many places and seen many methods of rule. This didn’t seem any more ridiculous than most others.

And, of course, there was a reason the people did what they did. Well, there was usually a reason. In this case, it just happened to be a good one.

 

And Kaladin muses that it may be due to a memory of the Radiants:

Kaladin turned away. He’d hoped his eyes wouldn’t change. The truth, that they had, made him uncomfortable. It said worrisome things. He didn’t want to believe that lighteyes had any grounds upon which to build the oppression.

They still don’t, he thought, infusing the gemstones in the lanterns as Sigzil instructed him. Perhaps the lighteyes rule because of the memory, buried deeply, of the Radiants. But just because they look a little like Radiants doesn’t mean they should have been able to oppress everyone.

 

The only way I think Wit's comment makes sense is if the lighteyes were in some way associated with the Radiants. It could be something else, I guess. We have too little information to say for sure.

 

I think it's a terrible in-world reason to make lighteyes superior because the resemble the traitors to mankind. It doesn't make sense to me, why would anyone want to be ruled by the descendants of the corrupted and disreputable? How could the descendants of the KR justify their superiority over others? Just remember the reactions when Dalinar suggested refounding the KR

 

 

“The Radiants?” Brightness Teshav demanded. “Are you mad? You’re going to try to rebuild a

sect of traitors who gave us over to the Voidbringers?”

 

 and more. I'm not arguing you're wrong, but I do think it's a poor explanation of the light/dark eyed system.

[Shaggai]

I think it's a terrible in-world reason to make lighteyes superior because the resemble the traitors to mankind. It doesn't make sense to me, why would anyone want to be ruled by the descendants of the corrupted and disreputable? How could the descendants of the KR justify their superiority over others? Just remember the reactions when Dalinar suggested refounding the KR

 

 

 and more. I'm not arguing you're wrong, but I do think it's a poor explanation of the light/dark eyed system.

I think it's less about Radiants and more about Shards. Shardblades make their wielders into lighteyes, and this change can be passed down. They also make their wielders into nearly unstoppable killing machines, especially when paired with Plate. In the chaos after the Recreance, Shardbearers would naturally have risen to the top and created a new aristocracy. This would eventually have been extended to all lighteyes, because not every minor cousin is going to have a Shardblade. Also, once you've got a stable class system, the noble houses aren't going to give up their power just because they lost their Blades in a duel or something.

[Aleksiel]

I think it's less about Radiants and more about Shards. Shardblades make their wielders into lighteyes, and this change can be passed down. They also make their wielders into nearly unstoppable killing machines, especially when paired with Plate. In the chaos after the Recreance, Shardbearers would naturally have risen to the top and created a new aristocracy. This would eventually have been extended to all lighteyes, because not every minor cousin is going to have a Shardblade. Also, once you've got a stable class system, the noble houses aren't going to give up their power just because they lost their Blades in a duel or something.

 

This could be the case, especially considering how the majority of the Shards belong to Vorin countries. But if Shards change eye color permanently and it's inherited, then the same must have been true for the KR and their children, however there aren't ten different light eye colors. We have blue, green, tan, violet, yellow and grey, that's only 6. Let's say Bondsmiths, being too few, somehow didn't have children or all their descendants died - and we still lack 3 eye colors. I may accept that for some reason nobody has a Blade from those Orders, but I'm not willing to buy those colors were red, pink and orange and all descendants with them have been killed, because people thought they resembled Voidbringers.

 

I wonder if pre-Sunmaker Vorinism had a different take on eye color.

[Moogle]

This could be the case, especially considering how the majority of the Shards belong to Vorin countries. But if Shards change eye color permanently and it's inherited, then the same must have been true for the KR and their children, however there aren't ten different light eye colors. We have blue, green, tan, violet, yellow and grey, that's only 6. Let's say Bondsmiths, being too few, somehow didn't have children or all their descendants died - and we still lack 3 eye colors. I may accept that for some reason nobody has a Blade from those Orders, but I'm not willing to buy those colors were red, pink and orange and all descendants with them have been killed, because people thought they resembled Voidbringers.

 

My take on it is just that those eye colors are recessive. In real life, things are a much more complicated (no Mendelian genetics for us here!), but essentially brown eyes win over blue eyes when having children. It would be a little bit odd if something similar didn't happen to lighteyes for some of the colors. We know there's already some whacky hijinks happening because some people are heterochromatic, like that one lighteyed guy's bastard.

 

It's also entirely possible these eye colors exist and we just haven't seen them yet.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Moogle

[Meg]

Burning Question about Burning Eyeballs

 

Some thoughts without evidence (physical or genetic) but speculation:

 

Mr. Sanderson said that he came up with the Shardblades because he felt that there was much too much blood in the Prologue of The Way of Kings with Szeth fighting with a "normal" blade. So he invented Shardblades that kill without blood. (source)

I imagine that he wanted to add an effect to those not-bloody-killing Blades that is dramatic and makes them unique and so he came up with the idea of the burned out eyes.

 

I don't believe it's a thing of genetics because every being killed with a Shardblade shows this effect, not only killed humans.

 

As a side note: I could eventually see a connection with Nightblood.

 

 

[Atkion]

on assumption #1, Non-Radiant Roshari do not have nomally-pigmented eyes, since in the books it makes references to people having 'very dark purple' and 'such light yellow it was almost completely white'. (dont quote me on the exact wordings of these references, i am going from memory.)

[Aizhen]

Do we know how the Parshendi came by Shardblades?  Found them in the ruins of the shattered plains along with the carved knives?  They seemed to have them at the time they met Galilar and company.  It relates in my mind because their eyes- at least Eshoni's- stay black/red regardless of holding a shard blade.  

 

I'm also really curious to see where the light eyes ruling concept came from; I felt as disgruntled as Kaladin did when his eyes went blue.