Hemalurgy, Powers, Human Attributes, and Blessings

[Trusk'our]

So here's an idea I've been wondering about for a while; When Allomantic or Feruchemical powers are stapled onto someone via Hemalurgy there is very little physical or cognitive warping, just enough to shift organs around and not kill the recipient of the spike (except for Steel Inquisitors, but more on that later). However, when human attributes are added to a human (or animal) they mutate into crazily different beings- they become a Hemalurgic construct.

I have a hypothesis as to why this is and some proof to help back it up.

Basically, my thinking is that the human attributes are very closely tied to the rest of the Spiritweb because they are a more integral part- you can live and function as a human without Allomancy or Feruchemy, but you need "strength" and "senses" to be considered a standard healthy human. The human attributes are deeply tied to you being human, basically.

My guess is that when a Hemalurgist tears off a piece of the Spiritweb with a spike, they do so sloppily because they aren't aware of the Realmatics and therefore cannot give an accurate Command to the Investiture. The spike takes more than what was intended, ending up with a bunch of "useless" bit and pieces. This isn't so bad with power spikes because they aren't tied very deeply to the human aspect, hence the reason they don't cause so much warping in the recipient, but attribute spikes lead to fundamentally changing their bearer. As for the changes we see in Steel Inquisitors (extra height and scratchy voice) those may be caused by simply having so many small extra bits taken along with their spikes that there is a little warping involved.

I also hypothesize that it is possible for a Hemalurgist to train themselves to be better at preventing this, similar to an Awakener and get better at wielding Hemalurgy with better and more accurate Commands. Visualize it like this; the first Hemalurgists were wielding it like someone would a crude, jagged knife and who has only very basic (nearly nonexistent) medical knowledge- they can technically cut into someone to perform surgery, but they weren't very good at it and they took a bunch of stuff they didn't intend to as well. A Hemalurgist who really knew their Realmatics and had practiced with Hemalurgy extensively may be closer to an expert surgeon wielding a highly precise scalpel to delicately perform an organ transplant.

Basically, a really, really skilled Hemalurgist may be able to give something akin to Kandra Blessings to humans without turning them into inhuman creatures.

Now, for the proof part; we know that just having attribute spikes of the right kind isn't enough to make a Kandra, even when adding more spikes- if a Mistwraith ate a Koloss they wouldn't make a Kandra, they'd become something else with less awareness. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/90/#e4580 And https://wob.coppermind.net/events/90/#e4652 This suggests that something more must be done to create Kandra spikes, which I believe could mean taking more specific things from the donor's Spiritweb to.

To further back up this claim, look toward the Hemalurgic Chimera- they are made with only one spike yet have changes brought to them large enough to surprise TenSoon. Plus, I'm pretty sure that Trellium is supposed to take powers, not attributes (Set members having those spikes and not turning into inhuman creatures), but they can still bring physical warping if the Hemalurgist charging them uses the correct Commands and has enough skill (Bleeder has multiple functioning Trellium spikes that acts as half-Blessings but still grants Allomantic or Feruchemical powers).

Additionally, we know that you can have a Kandra Blessing that uses non-attributes, such as with ReLurr's pewter spikes, which suggests that you can optionally go the opposite direction and take more from a donor to bring a more significant change, which makes it viable for bringing sapience to a Kandra (or possibly making Chimera from humans). https://wob.coppermind.net/events/7/#e7081

I hope that these are coherent, but I know that I have a tendency to become incoherent when I ramble 

If anyone wants clarification, please ask and I'd be more than happy to have a conversation about my ideas.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Trusk'our

[JustQuestin2004]

You do have a strong point about the Hemalurgy Commands.

In the Lost Metal it was shown that you could shave off small portions of someone's soul without killing them with the right Intent, and the use of Commands can make it easier.

So you are definitely on to something.  

[MistbornMathematician]

That looks extremely convincing. I'd believe it. 

[therunner]

I disagree to some extent.

Basically I think that what happens is that the stapled on spiritweb effects both physical and cognitive representation, it kinda has to.
For powers like Allomancy and Feruchemy, there is no real impact, because the powers fully reside in SR.

But the attributes, effects of those are primarily visible in PR and CR, we see this with Feruchemist (tap strength, and their muscles actually grow).
So when you staple on attributes, you deform physically, because your soul is basically telling your body 'this is how you are supposed to look like'.

This is why I think Koloss are the size they are, the strength from 4-5 people asserting itself. (if they are just 2 the size of human, their muscles would be about 4 times as strong due to size alone).

I think you could limit it perhaps, but you would get deformation every time, because the deformation is the attribute having an effect.

[MistbornMathematician]

12 minutes ago, therunner said:

I think you could limit it perhaps, but you would get deformation every time, because the deformation is the attribute having an effect.

You can get physical strength without any deformation at all, in the case of kandra blessings, and extreme deformation that doesn't appear to be reflecting any given effect, such as with the chimeras. It seems that deformations really are the result of imperfect or imprecise hemalurgy, and with enough skill and art, they can be avoided entirely. 

[therunner]

11 minutes ago, MistbornMathematician said:

You can get physical strength without any deformation at all, in the case of kandra blessings, and extreme deformation that doesn't appear to be reflecting any given effect, such as with the chimeras. It seems that deformations really are the result of imperfect or imprecise hemalurgy, and with enough skill and art, they can be avoided entirely. 

Kandra are not humans and are shapeshifters. With the same spikes they can look like human, or like horse, or like dog, and adjust their strength within certain bounds. We never see them receive human spike for any effect, so they are not relevant.

In addition, Kandra spikes are not just ordinary hemalurgic spikes but there is a special procedure to create them.
 

Chimeras are hinted at to be created by splicing animal attribute on human soul. We never see anyone lessen any deformations, so I don't think we can make definitive statement it can be avoided entirely.

Edited August 30, 2023 by therunner

[MistbornMathematician]

Ah, I should probably have specified that both mental and physical deformations occur with hemalurgy, and the mental variety has been more clearly tied to the skill of the hemalurgist so far -- the Kandra seem to experience no mental deformations from their spikes, while the Koloss definitely do and the chimeras are even worse. We also see that the Set's more advanced chimeras, made once they had learned more about hemalurgy, were more intelligent than the original model -- being less mentally deformed, thinking "almost like a person". The Steel Inquisitors experienced relatively low levels of physical and mental deformation, considering how many spikes they had, and Sazed referred to them as being highly-advanced hemalurgic constructs in comparison to the fairly low-level Koloss. We later see how the borderline-mindless first-generation chimeras are formed by just a single somewhat-sloppily placed spike, which lends credence to the theory that while (in general) more spikes = more side effects, that can be significantly offset by skill. 

[Trusk'our]

On 8/30/2023 at 10:26 AM, therunner said:

I disagree to some extent.

Basically I think that what happens is that the stapled on spiritweb effects both physical and cognitive representation, it kinda has to.
For powers like Allomancy and Feruchemy, there is no real impact, because the powers fully reside in SR.

But the attributes, effects of those are primarily visible in PR and CR, we see this with Feruchemist (tap strength, and their muscles actually grow).
So when you staple on attributes, you deform physically, because your soul is basically telling your body 'this is how you are supposed to look like'.

This is why I think Koloss are the size they are, the strength from 4-5 people asserting itself. (if they are just 2 the size of human, their muscles would be about 4 times as strong due to size alone).

I think you could limit it perhaps, but you would get deformation every time, because the deformation is the attribute having an effect.

From my understanding, a Hemalurgic Blessing provides a magical boost to an attribute of some kind, not a physical changing. Or at least the physical changing is a side effect- for example, the Tensoon mentions that the Blessing of Potency provides a magical boost to the strength of his individual muscles. They don't get bigger, they just get stronger, similar to how Allomantic pewter works.

Koloss should receive the same result; their spikes provide a magical boost to their strength (as well as speed and possibly health). I don't know that the magical boost itself would count towards messing up the anatomy of the bearer since we don't see that happening with Allomancy, which is part of the reason I believe that the two can be separated.

[therunner]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

From my understanding, a Hemalurgic Blessing provides a magical boost to an attribute of some kind, not a physical changing. Or at least the physical changing is a side effect- for example, the Tensoon mentions that the Blessing of Potency provides a magical boost to the strength of his individual muscles. They don't get bigger, they just get stronger, similar to how Allomantic pewter works

That is in Kandra, not in humans. Again, Kandra are different species, they are mistwraithes granted sentience. They have different bind points, they react differently to being damage of soul.
They are not comparable to humans.

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Koloss should receive the same result; their spikes provide a magical boost to their strength (as well as speed and possibly health). I don't know that the magical boost itself would count towards messing up the anatomy of the bearer since we don't see that happening with Allomancy, which is part of the reason I believe that the two can be separated.

Koloss have 4 spikes, and coincidentally they grow to such maximal size that the strength would be about 4x of adult human. It is odd if it is just a coincidence.

So far we have seen only 3 examples of humans being spiked with attribute, Koloss and the two kinds of Chimeras. All resulted in great physical deformation. Per WoB that deformation always happens.

We don't know that the enhancements is purely magical (like A-Pewter) or more along the lines of Feruchemy (which does cause physical change, at minimum in F-Pewter). Since attributes that can be stolen are from the spiritweb, it is natural to assume that they are the very same attributes Feruchemists stores. And since we see that tapping an attribute results in physical changes, it is natural to assume that adding more of the attribute to the soul with another method will also result in physical changes.

Edited August 31, 2023 by therunner

[Trusk'our]

31 minutes ago, therunner said:

That is in Kandra, not in humans. Again, Kandra are different species, they are mistwraithes granted sentience. They have different bind points, they react differently to being damage of soul.
They are not comparable to humans.

Alright, fair enough. I suppose it is sort of like comparing apples to oranges.

32 minutes ago, therunner said:

Koloss have 4 spikes, and coincidentally they grow to such maximal size that the strength would be about 4x of adult human. It is odd if it is just a coincidence.

Perhaps there is a connection there, but I thought that Koloss just kept growing until they died- therefore, 4 times their original size wouldn't necessarily be the maximum size the spikes make them grow, they just can't live long enough to grow more.

35 minutes ago, therunner said:

We don't know that the enhancements is purely magical (like A-Pewter) or more along the lines of Feruchemy (which does cause physical change, at minimum in F-Pewter). Since attributes that can be stolen are from the spiritweb, it is natural to assume that they are the very same attributes Feruchemists stores. And since we see that tapping an attribute results in physical changes, it is natural to assume that adding more of the attribute to the soul with another method will also result in physical changes.

Personally, I'm not totally convinced, but that's my own opinion. I don't think we're going to be able to convince each other of our point of view, but I liked being able to talk to someone about it regardless 

[alder24]

24 minutes ago, therunner said:

That is in Kandra, not in humans. Again, Kandra are different species, they are mistwraithes granted sentience. They have different bind points, they react differently to being damage of soul.
They are not comparable to humans.

Kandra experience almost no physical change from spikes, but the change is fully cognitive, HoA ch 41 Epigraphs:

Quote

One might think that kandra are changed most of all. However, one must remember that new kandra are made from mistwraiths, and not humans. The spikes worn by the kandra cause only a small transformation in their hosts—leaving their bodies mostly like that of a mistwraith, but allowing their minds to begin working. Ironically, while the spikes dehumanize the koloss, they give a measure of humanity to the kandra.

Also it's likely that Kandra Blessings somehow have the effect of Allomancy in them, or something like that - that's how Sazed talks about them in HoA ch 38 Epigraphs:

Quote

And so, a kandra granted the Blessing of Potency is actually acquiring a bit of innate strength similar to that of burning pewter. The Blessing of Presence grants mental capacity in a similar way, while the Blessing of Awareness is the ability to sense with greater acuity and the rarely used Blessing of Stability grants emotional fortitude.

 

But yeah, I agree with you, you're changing the spiritual ideal of your physical body when inserting attributes with spikes, and the body changes trying to look like its spirit tells how it should look. Deformations are inevitable. You might be able to minimize this effect with proper intent and command, but as long as you want to spike physical attributes into yourself, deformations will follow. Mental attributes might likely result in cognitive deformations - madness for example.

What you are stealing isn't magical enhancement, like the effect of F-pewter, but physical stuff - strength of muscles, which comes from muscles' size and structure. Attributes are non-magical, they are the effect of your body.

[therunner]

17 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Perhaps there is a connection there, but I thought that Koloss just kept growing until they died- therefore, 4 times their original size wouldn't necessarily be the maximum size the spikes make them grow, they just can't live long enough to grow more.

It is a possibility, though we also know that Hemalurgy can rearrange physiology to keep them alive.
But yeah, it is possible.

18 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Personally, I'm not totally convinced, but that's my own opinion. I don't think we're going to be able to convince each other of our point of view, but I liked being able to talk to someone about it regardless 

Fair enough It was interesting discussion, and it will be great once we know more (probably Era 3).

18 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Also it's likely that Kandra Blessings somehow have the effect of Allomancy in them, or something like that - that's how Sazed talks about them in HoA ch 38 Epigraphs:

It is possible, though to me it sounds more like Sazed liking the effect to something reader would be familiar with.

But since we don't know how Blessings are made, it is possible they steal something a bit different than just raw attribute.