Hemalurgy stealing Feruchemical abilities *Spoilers*

[TheChronicFeruchemist]

So we know that hemalurgy can enhance a persons allomantic abilities, such as vin and her bronze earing. We also know that hemalurgy can steal feruchemical powers, yet what we don't know is what if you used a pewter hemalurgic spike on a bloodmaker, how would it enhance his or her bloodmaking abilities? Would it make them able to store more healing ability without feeling the direct effects? And what in the would would it do to someone who could compound? What if said twinborn had two spikes, one for his or her allomantic ability and one for his or her feruchemical ability? Anybody else got any ideas?

[Kurkistan]

So we know that hemalurgy can enhance a persons allomantic abilities, such as vin and her bronze earing. We also know that hemalurgy can steal feruchemical powers, yet what we don't know is what if you used a pewter hemalurgic spike on a bloodmaker, how would it enhance his or her bloodmaking abilities? Would it make them able to store more healing ability without feeling the direct effects? And what in the would would it do to someone who could compound? What if said twinborn had two spikes, one for his or her allomantic ability and one for his or her feruchemical ability? Anybody else got any ideas?

To clarify, you are asking what happens when you "double up" on Feruchemical abilities? Such as a Bloodmaker recieving a spike charged for Feruchemical gold? That question has been knocking around in my head as well for awhile now, so I'm curious to see if there's a good answer out there.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

This is hard to say - there's a lot of discussion of relative strength in Allomancy, but since Feruchemy is End-Neutral, no Feruchemist can get higher yields than any other.

The only change I see as possible is that a Spiked Feruchemist might lose less energy when tapping large amounts at once.

[Aranfan]

That doest work if you go with the "no energy loss when tapping for a lot" route though. Which I do. The only benefit I can see is being able to use the metalminds of the slaughtered Feruchemist.

[Kurkistan]

That doest work if you go with the "no energy loss when tapping for a lot" route though. Which I do. The only benefit I can see is being able to use the metalminds of the slaughtered Feruchemist.

I sympathize with that view, since I don't like the fact that Feruchemy results in lost energy, but it's basically cannon at this point.

Link

It's been established in the Brandonothology that drawing upon large proportions of Feruchemical attributes has diminishing returns, but it's still "balanced:"

Q: And this is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power?

A: It doesn't diminish. Or, well, it does--but only if you compound it. You get 1 for 1 back, but compounding the power requires an expenditure of the power itself. For instance, if you are weak for one hour, you can gain the lost strength for one hour. But that's not really that much strength. After all, you probably weren't as weak as zero people during that time. So if you want to be as strong as two men, you couldn't do it for a full hour. You'd have to spend some energy to compound, then spend the compounded energy itself.

In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.

"Compounding" is obviously used differently here than in AoL, but besides that it still holds.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Kurkistan

[Aranfan]

Except that in that example there is no loss of power when tapping a large ammount at once. The so called "diminishing" is an artifact of using percentages of your normal (not tapping, not storing) attribute as the unit of measure in the example, not any actual loss of the attribute during transfer. The math in that example works out to conservation, not loss.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

No, it does not.

If it did, it would be 30 min at 200% and 20 min at 250%.

As with any kind of energy transfer in real life, the more (and more quickly) you transfer, the more gets lost as waste in the process (though the description implies to me that Feruchemical aste is not heat and light, it's the extra energy being burned up by forcing other energy into your body directly).

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[Arcanist Lupus]

Better Feruchemy might mean you can store more in any given metalmind.

[Aranfan]

No, it does not.

If it did, it would be 30 min at 200% and 20 min at 250%.

Hmm, you appear to be right. That's dumb and doesn't fit at all with how Feruchemy is described in the books at all. There is no mention of this in the books when anybody who is a Feruchemist exposits about Feruchemy. Infact I'm pretty sure Sazed expelitly says there is no energy loss when refering to storing mass in Well of Ascension, I'll have to re-read it again to be sure though.

[Arcanist Lupus]

Hmm, you appear to be right. That's dumb and doesn't fit at all with how Feruchemy is described in the books at all. There is no mention of this in the books when anybody who is a Feruchemist exposits about Feruchemy. Infact I'm pretty sure Sazed expelitly says there is no energy loss when refering to storing mass in Well of Ascension, I'll have to re-read it again to be sure though.

No, I'm pretty sure Sazed mentions diminishing returns in the books.

EDIT: maybe not though, I can't find it.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Ookla the Insatiable

[Ari]

No, I'm pretty sure Sazed mentions diminishing returns in the book.

Yep, he says that when you go to quadruple strength you get less than half the time out of a metalmind that you would when tapping double strength.

As for ferchemical strength allowing you to store more charge in a metal? That's one possibility. It could also mean that your returns diminish less when you use that power more quickly, that you can store power in a metalmind faster, and so on.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Yep, he says that when you go to quadruple strength you get less than half the time out of a metalmind that you would when tapping double strength.

Indeed so. I am always confused by how many people seem to be angry about this right now, given that it's been there since the Siege Of Luthadel, and (to me, at least) makes a fair amount of sense.

[Aranfan]

Because getting less out than you put in is Ruin's shtick! Ruin shouldn't get 2 of the 3 magic systems on Scadrial!

[Kurkistan]

Indeed so. I am always confused by how many people seem to be angry about this right now, given that it's been there since the Siege Of Luthadel, and (to me, at least) makes a fair amount of sense.

I wouldn't say "angry," but this model of Feruchemy yielding diminishing returns throws a distressing kink in the magic system.

My particular distress with this is that, from that quote on the Brandonothology, it looks like metalminds "remember" exactly how many "units" of an attribute were stored at the same time, and that this memory affects how efficiently you can tap those attributes. So we get the case where someone who stores 50% of an attribute for 30 minutes ends up being able to be at 150% strength for the full 30 minutes while someone who stores 75% for an hour will necessarily have less than 30 minutes of 150% strength, due to energy loss.

I had a pet theory that any diminishing returns were a result of metal-impurities, but Brandon's quote makes it clear that it's just based on whether or not your were "compounding" your attributes, so we still have paradoxical cases of metalminds storing partitioned sets of attributes, depending on the percentage that they were stored at, with different "limits" for tapping before diminishing returns set in.

If there was a hard limit before diminishing returns set in, say "any attribute level above 200% has energy loss," then it would be better, but the way that it's laid out just seems arbitrary.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Kurkistan

[Ari]

Because getting less out than you put in is Ruin's shtick! Ruin shouldn't get 2 of the 3 magic systems on Scadrial!

But Allomancy works the same way, too. If you get 2x the effect from a metal by flaring it, you burn more than twice the amount of metal. It's less about Ruin influencing the magic system than about Brandon putting good limitations on the more powerful magical abilities.

[Chaos]

Well, if you want to be super technical about it, this compounding of Feruchemy wouldn't be of Ruin. I think that it has more to do with how the Spiritual power moves inside you. Hemalurgy reduces that Spiritual energy when spikes decay, Allomancy preserves your own Preservation inside you, so it instead draws from elsewhere. Feruchemy doesn't destroy the Ruin or Preservation inside you, so I'd think it is still End-Neutral.

I also agree with the efficiency thing. Seems reasonable that if you were a "stronger" Feruchemist, you'd get less of the diminishing returns effect. You're more efficient scuttling your power through time, so to speak.

[Kurkistan]

I also agree with the efficiency thing. Seems reasonable that if you were a "stronger" Feruchemist, you'd get less of the diminishing returns effect. You're more efficient scuttling your power through time, so to speak.

Hmmm. I hadn't been considering how the AoL Ars Arcanum models Feruchemy. Variable "compound limits" make somewhat more sense when you view Feruchemy as time-scuttling instead of seeing metalminds as batteries.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Kurkistan

[TheChronicFeruchemist]

Better Feruchemy might mean you can store more in any given metalmind.

That depends on if the storage flaw is in the metal or from the person. Do we know if metalminds have to be the exact alloy like allomantic metals do?

Though the more I think about it the more Vin's earing becomes a bad example, I feel like sensing another's magical abilities is more like pushing or pulling on emotions, it is less measurable than something such as strength or senses. Though this is just my interpretation. Do we know what effects a steal spike would have on a pewter arm? If so it might be easier to figure out the correlation in feruchemy.

Though maybe I was looking in the wrong direction, perhaps the spikes we should be using are Iron, Tin, Zinc, and Copper. Those steal actual physical atributes rather than allomantic or feruchemical powers. This way the feruchemist could physically have more to store.

[Arcanist Lupus]

I think of it as magical friction. (although air resistance might be a slightly more accurate analogy)

[Aradel]

I also agree with the efficiency thing. Seems reasonable that if you were a "stronger" Feruchemist, you'd get less of the diminishing returns effect. You're more efficient scuttling your power through time, so to speak.

By the time I got halfway through the topic, I had a good response ready. You just stole it.

"Diminishing Returns" Makes all kinds of sense when you take the AoL Ars Arcanum into Account. (Alliteration!) When a feruchemist spends some time storing strength, he's using his own feruchemical power to push that strength into a kind of temporal limbo, outside of time. Later, the feruchemist can again use his feruchemical ability to reach back and draw the strength from past, connecting the two points in time with feruchemy.

Paraphrase: When a Feruchemist taps a metalmind, the Feruchemist pulls energy through time, connecting his present self to a past self who is pushing that same energy forward through time.

Compounding (which we're going to have to find a new term for) refers to pulling back that reserve faster than it was stored, and puts a strain on his own feruchemical power. He's reaching to draw strength back from himself through time, connecting to Two Separate Periods of Time, forcing his feruchemical ability to work harder, and losing some energy to compensate.

Paraphrase: When a Feruchemist compounds his power, he pulls on energy from two separate times, connecting to two past selves instead of one.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Ookla the Abstracted

[Chaos]

By the time I got halfway through the topic, I had a good response ready. You just stole it.

Muwhaha

"Diminishing Returns" Makes all kinds of sense when you take the AoL Ars Arcanum into Account. (Alliteration!) When a feruchemist spends some time storing strength, he's using his own feruchemical power to push that strength into a kind of temporal limbo, outside of time. Later, the feruchemist can again use his feruchemical ability to reach back and draw the strength from past, connecting the two points in time with feruchemy.

Textbite: When a Feruchemist taps a metalmind, the Feruchemist pulls energy through time, connecting his present self to a past self who is pushing that same energy forward through time.

Compounding (which we're going to have to find a new term for) refers to pulling back that reserve faster than it was stored, and puts a strain on his own feruchemical power. He's reaching to draw strength back from himself through time, connecting to Two Separate Periods of Time, forcing his feruchemical ability to work harder, and losing some energy to compensate.

Textbite: When a Feruchemist compounds his power, he pulls on energy from two separate times, connecting to two past selves instead of one.

See, I didn't steal everything; that was a superb description of that... compounding, which I didn't think about correctly. I very much like how you described that. Kudos.

And I agree--we desperately need a different word than "compounding". I don't care if it's only a fan-made convention for 17th Shard, but I'm certain some new member will misinterpret it if they join and they read about two different compoundings. (I mean, jeeze, look at how many threads there are on Compounding so far.)

My thesaurus search leads me this potential possibilities: magnifying, intensifying, augmenting. I'm up for better suggestions, though.

[Arcanist Lupus]

My thesaurus search leads me this potential possibilities: magnifying, intensifying, augmenting. I'm up for better suggestions, though.

I like "compressing". You're squeezing the same amount of energy into a smaller timeframe, thereby increasing your power. It's like when you squish a marshmellow and it gets fatter as well as shorter.

[Chaos]

I like "compressing". You're squeezing the same amount of energy into a smaller timeframe, thereby increasing your power. It's like when you squish a marshmellow and it gets fatter as well as shorter.

I like your intent with that and the rationale behind it, but it doesn't roll off the tongue too well to say you're compressing Feruchemy.

[Kurkistan]

By the time I got halfway through the topic, I had a good response ready. You just stole it.

"Diminishing Returns" Makes all kinds of sense when you take the AoL Ars Arcanum into Account. (Alliteration!) When a feruchemist spends some time storing strength, he's using his own feruchemical power to push that strength into a kind of temporal limbo, outside of time. Later, the feruchemist can again use his feruchemical ability to reach back and draw the strength from past, connecting the two points in time with feruchemy.

Textbite: When a Feruchemist taps a metalmind, the Feruchemist pulls energy through time, connecting his present self to a past self who is pushing that same energy forward through time.

Compounding (which we're going to have to find a new term for) refers to pulling back that reserve faster than it was stored, and puts a strain on his own feruchemical power. He's reaching to draw strength back from himself through time, connecting to Two Separate Periods of Time, forcing his feruchemical ability to work harder, and losing some energy to compensate.

Textbite: When a Feruchemist compounds his power, he pulls on energy from two separate times, connecting to two past selves instead of one.

This works well enough, I suppose. Be careful with those "textbites" of yours, though: I was looking through the AoL Ars Arcanum for a bit there thinking that they were quotes!

As for an alternate word to avoid overloading "compounding," what about "synthesis" or "composition?" I favor synthesis, myself, as in "Wax lost energy when he synthesized his Weight to become as heavy as a horse and buggy."

Edited December 1, 2011 by Kurkistan

[TheChronicFeruchemist]

I like your intent with that and the rationale behind it, but it doesn't roll off the tongue too well to say you're compressing Feruchemy.

Try it without the contraction. You are compressing feruchemy. I like it. Or Feruchemical compression.