Jasnah, cohesion and hemalurgy

[Tobbzn]

Prologue:

Jasnah raised her hand to the granite wall beside her, seeking to touch something solid. Her fingers sank into the stone a fraction, as if the wall had become mud.

 

WoB:

Cohesion involved being able to alter things at a molecular level, and his example was that you could push your hand on a table, and when you removed your hand there would still be a handprint.

 

 

Did Jasnah use cohesion?

 

We've seen her use the abilities of an Elsecaller in the epilogue and the first book, but the description in the prologue seems very out-of-place if it's supposed to exemplify accidental use of transformation or transportation. One could argue it was accidental transformation, but mud is not even an Essence, which implies it should be a difficult transformation.

 

If the mud description is intended to mean anything at all, it would be a hint at cohesion, only available to willshapers and stonewards. This is all just one data point, of course, does anything else support the theory?

 

Something ponderous and slow of thought, yet somehow strong. The palace itself. Frantic, Jasnah seized this sphere and forced her power into it. Her mind blurring, she gave this bead everything she had, and then commanded it to rise.
[...]
Jasnah held up a second bead, the statue she’d sensed earlier. She gave it power, and other beads collected before her, taking the shape of one of the statues that lined the front of the feast hall—the statue of Talenelat’Elin, Herald of War. A tall, muscular man with a large Shardblade.
[...]
Gritting her teeth, Jasnah heaved herself to her feet, beads streaming from her clothing. She would not kneel before this thing, whatever it was. 

 

I don't see this as exemplified transformation, as nothing looks to actually change material, but it does sound like willshaping, even ending on a note about being willful.

 

Edit: Consider also the following quote from WoK which also shows off Jasnah's power over Shadesmar:

 

The beads above her parted. Those beneath her surged, bearing her upward, out to where someone stood, hand outstretched. Jasnah, back to the black sky, face lit by nearby hovering flames. Jasnah grasped Shallan’s hand, pulling her upward, onto something. A raft. Made from the beads of glass. They seemed to obey Jasnah’s will.

 

The theory is by no means confirmed, but I find it compelling. It implies, however, that it must be possible for a person to acquire more than their share of surges.

 

Luckily, we know of a way that could be possible.

 

The epilogue seems to imply that she's been hanging out with Wit for some time:

 

She inspected him, then sighed. “It is part of what I find so annoying about you, Wit. Only a very small part of a vast, vast river.”

 

So maybe, just maybe, she's been involved in the greater cosmere for a while. Certainly, she refers to "the cosmere's great mysteries" and has been killing Ghostbloods, who displayed artifacts from other cosmere worlds in their cellar.

 

“You killed Jasnah,” Shallan hissed.

“Yes. After she, in turn, had assassinated a number of our members. You didn’t think her hands were clean of blood, did you, Veil?”

 

So in this Jasnah-versus-Ghostbloods conflict, could we really expect hemalurgy to be disregarded as a tool, provided both sides know of it? Jasnah's hands-on lesson in philosophy seems to imply she's not beyond using magic to kill, so I'm inclined to believe she would use hemalurgy if she could.

 

Open flame:

The other one knelt and rammed a long, thin knife right into Jasnah’s chest. Shallan heard it hit the wood of the floor beneath the body.

 

Long and thin knife? Sounds somewhat like a spike, wouldn't you say? I figure they know of it. 

 

The prime weakness of the theory is that Jasnah's bathing scene in WoK did not mention any spikes, though the philosophy lesson chapter mentions earrings. Then again, the healing properties of stormlight and the presumed reshaping abilities of the willshaper could provide a convenient explanation?

Edited June 24, 2014 by Tobbzn

[A Joe in the Bush]

Where did Jasnah Find a Surgebinder who knew Cohesion? And once she though Shallan was a Ghostblood, Why didn't she steal Her Surge of Illumination?

[Fifth of Daybreak]

In The Emperor's Soul forging sinks into the intended recipient in much the same way. I think anytime she sinks her hand into something to soulcast, it's just a quirk of transformation magic in the Cosmere.

 

As for the statues in Shadesmar, I think it has to do with her cognitive abilities in Shadesmar.

 

The Hemalurgy and worldhopping theory is an interesting one, as we've just gotten WoB that we've met a few Rosharan worldhoppers already. I doubt more that Jasnah is well traveled in the Cosmere, as she has only been doing it for a few years. 

 

Welcome to the Forums!

Edited June 12, 2014 by EMTrevor

[Tobbzn]

Where did Jasnah Find a Surgebinder who knew Cohesion? And once she though Shallan was a Ghostblood, Why didn't she steal Her Surge of Illumination?

 

I figure cohesion predated her soulcasting ability, appearing in the prologue which takes place before she's shown to be soulcasting.

 

Neither she nor Shallan knew about the Illumination surge at the time when Shallan's treachery was revealed - it was only discovered during the boat trip, at which point they were on friendly terms.

 

Also, Shallan's blood is now soulcast, and the investiture may affect hemalurgy in unexpected ways...

Edited June 12, 2014 by Tobbzn

[Khyrindor]

I expect that spiking yourself would force away your spren, similar to pushing the Mist away.

[Tobbzn]

I expect that spiking yourself would force away your spren, similar to pushing the Mist away.

Why's that? Considering the many different types of spren, I figure some might accept its use, while some might not.

 

After all, Hemalurgy is of Ruin, not of Odium.

[Argent]

Hemalurgic spikes push the mists away because they contain Investitures that are more or less opposite. It wouldn't necessarily have the same effect on Honor's or Cultivation's power.

 

But I don't think Jasnah had any access to the Cohesion Surge. I can't think of a proper justification for this, but the way Shallan (who doesn't even have access to the Transportation Surge) interacts with the Cognitive Realm leads me to believe that Soulcasting has some funky effects on the Physical Realm around the Soulcaster. Jasnah, with her Transportation, might be making things even funkier.

[Moogle]

This is a very interesting theory, even if I doubt it's right. In particular, the mention of a long, thin knife going through her heart fascinates me. We know the Ghostbloods have worldhoppers.

 

It's important to note that Jasnah didn't leave any handprints in the wall when her hand sank into it, though. I don't think she was using Cohesion. Others have explained why this would be.

 

We also don't know if Hemalurgy can steal only one Surge. I'm of the opinion that you could use Hemalurgy to steal a spren bond (similar to trapping a spren in a gemstone - you might even use a gemstone spike), but I don't know if you could steal one Surge only.

[Tobbzn]

Jasnah, with her Transportation, might be making things even funkier.

 

Yes, transportation is properly illustrated in the prologue:

 

She stepped up beside the bead statue, noting for the first time the strange clouds overhead. They seemed to form a narrow ribbon of highway, straight and long, pointing toward the horizon.

 

However, if Jasnah was originally a willshaper, cohesion and transportation would both be innate abilities, and I can't see anything in the prologue that hints at soulcasting - at least, not the way Shallan's works. Shallan's soulcasting involves bargaining, not demanding stuff. The effect is also different, altering the arrangements of beads (molecules) instead of the actual materials. 

 

I don't know if you could steal one Surge only.

 

There's no reason to believe that she did. She could have stolen the surges of an Elsecaller to get soulcasting while boosting her own transportation, or she could have even more surges that have yet to be revealed.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Tobbzn

[Fedelpen]

Hm. I have to admit, I like that theory. I don't think Sanderson would have put that in by accident--not when he knew what he wanted each of the surges to do. 

 

And the hemalurgic spike is a very interesting possibility. Here's the passage:

 

In a frozen moment of horror, one threw something to the floor before the others, who stepped aside to make way. 

A body in a thin nightgown, eyes staring sightlessly, blood blossoming from the breast. Jasnah.

"Be sure," one of the men said. 

The other one knelt and rammed a long, thin knife right into Jasnah's chest. Shallan heard it hit the wood of the floor beneath the body.

 

 

.....well, I don't know what to think. She's quite clearly dead. Blood, knives, lifeless eyes. And yet she's not. 

The Ghostbloods admitted to killing her at the end, but their word doesn't mean much.

 

The question I want answered first is how did she escape?

I don't like the hand sinking into the wall. I suspect Jasnah is or will be a world-hopper. Perhaps she has other powers. Perhaps they were from hemalurgy. Perhaps they were from an honorblade. 

 

Yeah, I want to know how she escaped. I think answers will come with that. 

Edited June 19, 2014 by Zedex

[Arondell]

An interesting theory but I'm very skeptical.

 

Mistborn Spoilers

 

It was pointed out in the Mistborn series that hemalurgy is an art that requires great precision.  The metal type and placement is crucial.  The Lord Ruler was only able to figure out how to make three different types of constructs while he held the power of Preservation.  In the following centuries despite a significant amount of experimentation he was never able to figure out how to make any others.

 

I find it unlikely that Jasnah somehow learned of Hemalurgy and figured out the exact placement to untilize it to extract surges and then place the hemalurgic spikes into herself.

 

Also the assassins that attacked Jasnah on the ship were not direct representatives of the Ghostbloods.  They were agents hired by Tyn who was in turn hired by the Ghostbloods and not actually a member.   Hence extremely unlikely to have any idea that Hemalurgy exists let alone proper placement for acquiring surges via that method.

[RenegadeShroom]

Also, on the topic of Tyn's lackeys, we saw pretty clearly in the epilogue that they didn't spike away Jasnah's Nahel bond, and trying to give abilities to someone who you're quite actively trying to kill seems extraordinarily counter-productive, so I think we can safely rule out the stabbing as an attempt at hemalurgy, one way or another.

[Tobbzn]

I want to know how she escaped.

 

Perhaps the body shown was produced by stolen Illumination? After all, Pattern seems to be yelping about lies and truths out of context the previous night, which could mean that Jasnah was practicing her Lightweaving. In fact, I'm inclined to believe she's got a bit of all the surges, including Truthseeing, which would explain her being terrified the day before her "death".

 

I find it unlikely that Jasnah somehow learned of Hemalurgy and figured out the exact placement to untilize it to extract surges and then place the hemalurgic spikes into herself.

Note that Hemalurgy is relatively poorly understood on Scadrial, and it's stated that it's the blood that is important for hemalurgy, thus the name.

 

Q:  In the different worlds, can you spike people Hemalurgically with materials other than metal? Say, you create a wood spike for Breath, or a gem spike for surges?

A:  RAFO.

 

Q:  Have people not from/on Scadrial used Hemalurgy?

A:  Yes.

 

So if you can find a way to rewrite your Spiritual DNA, you can do all kinds of funky things.  That's what Hemalurgy does.  It rips off a piece of someone else's soul, staples it to yours.

In the interest of my massive case of confirmation bias, I'm interpreting this as "there are other ways to use hemalurgy than the ones discovered on Scadrial". Notably, Jasnah has soulcast blood before, and I find the possibility of attaining surges that way to be rather likely.

Unrelated to any responses, I would like to amend the OP with this neat find:

 

The beads above her parted. Those beneath her surged, bearing her upward, out to where someone stood, hand outstretched. Jasnah, back to the black sky, face lit by nearby hovering flames. Jasnah grasped Shallan’s hand, pulling her upward, onto something. A raft. Made from the beads of glass. They seemed to obey Jasnah’s will.

 

Does that sound like soulcasting, or willshaping?

[High prince of geeks]

This adds a darker side to Jasnah. In the prologue of WoR she had a whole "I'll do anything for my family" to her, and after she seas what Szeth does she promises herself to find out about surgebinding (can't find the exact quote sorry). Now she has had ten years to have researched the properties of surgebinding, and perhaps Hermalugy. If this is true that would mean two things.

1. Jasnah may have become the Roshar equivalent of a fullborn

2. And Jasnah may end up killing anyone who gets in the way of her goal

[Arondell]

 

Does that sound like soulcasting, or willshaping?

 

It sounds just like what she did in the prologue to Words of Radiance when she first entered shadesmar.

 

 

She knelt on a platform of glass made up of small beads locked together. She held her hand to the side, uplifted, clutching the sphere that was the guide. Others rolled around her, forming into the shape of a hallway with lanterns on the walls, an intersection ahead. It didn’t look right, of course— the entire thing was made of beads. But it was a fair approximation.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 22). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Since that happened before she even knew about the existence of such powers it is rather clear to me that she had no knowledge of Hemalurgy at that time.  As far as I can tell nothing else we have been shown of her capabilities cannot be explained as originating from the surges associated with Elsecallers.