Confused

Theory in brief: Nalan sends Szeth to kill the Stone Shamen because they are the original Skybreakers whom Nalan believes have failed the purpose of their Order. We know from the epigraph to Chapter 41 that one KR Order “entertained great subterfuge” “not [to] abandon their arms” but to continue as functioning KR. I believe these were the Skybreakers who moved to Shinovar and became the Stone Shamen. Evidence: Only Skybreakers and Windrunners utilize the Gravitation surge, and only those with the Gravitation surge could have taught Szeth how to use Jezrien’s Honorblade to fly. If Kaladin hadn’t seen Szeth, and Syl hadn’t helped him, he might never have learned to fly himself.Nalan apparently still has his Honorblade. When he went back to retrieve it, the Skybreakers were with him and collected the other Heralds’ Blades. They took them back to Shinovar with them.Of all the lands on Roshar, Shinovar is the most politically and ideologically orderly. Everyone knows their place. Very Skybreaker-like.The Skybreakers believed the Desolations were over, since they had lived a long time without encountering another one. This was unlike the other Desolations, which occurred at shorter time intervals I do think KR are immortal, or close enough to, for whatever reason – whether from the healing effects of Stormlight (sorry, Kurkistan) or their bonding with a splinter of Honor, or something else. (Of course, how do they get their Stormlight, if they live in Shinovar?) Having such personal knowledge of the normal sequence of Desolations, and perhaps relying on the effectiveness of whatever the Bondsmith Melishi had accomplished against the Voidbringers (Epigraph, Chaper 58), over time the Skybreakers came to believe that the Voidbringers would never return. That is why they made Szeth Truthless (after Taravangian’s intercession and instigation, as another thread concluded based on the epigraph to Chapter 78). Nalan now wants revenge on the Skybreakers for, I believe, limiting their activities only to the Shinovar political/spiritual system, rather than actively maintaining order throughout Roshar. Nalan was the last of the Heralds to accept his role as an Order’s patron (Epigraph, Chapter 43): "And thus were the disturbances in the Revv toparchy quieted, when, upon their ceasing to prosecute their civil dissensions, Nalan’Elin betook himself to finally accept the Skybreakers who had named him their master, when initially he had spurned their advances and, in his own interests, refused to countenance that which he deemed a pursuit of vanity and annoyance; this was the last of the Heralds to admit to such patronage." This passage suggests Nalan accepted his role only after the Skybreakers agreed to “ceas[e] to prosecute their civil dissensions,” thus quieting the toparchy’s “disturbances.” Nalan viewed such involvement in civil affairs as “a pursuit of vanity and annoyance.” But when the Skybreakers retreated to Shinovar, and focused solely on establishing an orderly system there, Nalan believed they returned to such a “pursuit of vanity.” He tells Szeth he was “banished by petty men with no vision.” Nalan wants Szeth and Nightblood to kill the Skybreakers/Stone Shamen – “justice for the leaders of the Shin.” Those whom Nalan has gathered to him – the “new” Skybreakers – are not surgebinders, merely people who believe in order as strongly as he does. Because Nalan’s mind has been twisted, he believes surgebinders are the cause of the Deolations and cannot be trusted. He and his new Skybreakers seek to kill them as well. That’s the theory anyway…

"Taln" is an Aimian who's made himself look like Taln. And he thinks he's Bill Murray waking up every morning to the same song on the radio.

Previous commentary has assumed that the Honorblades grant a rightful user the ability to use only the surges associated with the Herald whose Honorblade it is. Szeth’s Honorblade, which most speculate was Jezrien’s, gave Szeth Windrunner powers, but (as far as we know) did not grant him the ability to bind other surges. Is each Herald likewise limited to bind only certain surges, based on their respective Honorblades, or do the Blades grant the Heralds the ability to bind all ten surges? Alternatively, do the Heralds possess some inherent power, either derived off-world (where some in this forum believe the Heralds originated) or imbued as a splinter of Honor’s power? The text supports the theory that the Honorblades granted the Heralds access to all ten surges. Kalak observes in the WoK Prelude that “ [Honorb]lades were weapons of power beyond even Shardblades. They were unique. Precious.” Presumably Kalak meant that Honorblades’ ability to grant surgebinding powers elevated them above Shardblades. It’s odd that Kalak viewed Shardblades as actual weapons. Shouldn’t he have known that they were simply a form taken by each KR’s bonded spren? And, knowing that, shouldn’t he have realized that the nahel bond granted each KR powers equal to an Honorblade? Unless for Heralds the Honorblades, unlike the nahel bond, granted the power to bind all ten surges. When normal humans like Szeth use the Honorblades (assuming one could call Szeth “normal”), they were limited to the surgebinding abilities of the Herald whose blade it was. Ishar feared what might happen if each KR had access to all ten surges: "But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws.” [“Words of Radiance,” Chapter 2, page 4, emphasis added.] Ishar must have felt that “organization” was necessary to preclude men from rivaling Heralds’ power. Otherwise, why bother? A KR already has power over other men. Ishar’s concern must be for the Heralds. Ishar’s fear was sufficiently great that he would “destroy each and every one” if each individual KR’s surgebinding ability were not limited. To leave even a few KR with the same full abilities as the Heralds would inevitably invite conflict between the KR and the Heralds. It is unclear whether the foregoing epigraph refers to Ishar destroying each Radiant or each spren, since the spren were the basis of the KR’s power. And we have discovered that the spren, like men, also had “precepts and laws.” Further, the antecedents to the various pronouns (“them,” “one,” they”) are equally unclear: the “them” does seem to refer to men, but the “one” and the “they” could refer to either men or spren. From Ishar’s perspective, however, the result would be the same – the KR would cease to exist. That each KR Order chose a “patron” Herald does not undermine this analysis. The epigraph of WoR Chapter 37 (“Words of Radiance” chapter 13, page 1, emphasis added) states: "Now, as each order was thus matched to the nature and temperament of the Herald it named patron, there was none more archetypal of this than the Stonewards who followed after Talenelat'Elin, Stonesinew, Herald of War: they thought it a point of virtue to exemplify resolve, strength, and dependability. Alas, they took less care for imprudent practice of their stubbornness, even in the face of proven error." The choice of patron Herald was based on personality, not surgebinding power. This passage says nothing about Taln’s particular surgebinding abilities. That again suggests that each Herald had the ability to bind all ten surges. It is possible that the Stone Shamans taught Szeth how to use only the Windrunner surges and that humans, if properly taught, could use the Honorblades for all of the surges. That will make Kaladin’s possession of Szeth’s former Honorblade very interesting…unless the Stone Shamans take it from him. I do think Heralds also have inherent power – Taln’s catching the darts with superhuman quickness (assuming it was Taln). But the power to bind all ten surges comes from their Honorblades. I will discuss the use of Honorblades and stormlight, which another thread has already addressed, on another day.

I didn't see anything by my proposed superimposition, but maybe others will find something. I did think that the older maps on this page of the wiki made the continent look like a human embryo at the "chicken" stage, particularly at the size and resolution of that page. It's obviously getting late here...

Has anyone superimposed the KR chart on the map? Do any map features correspond with any KR features (e.g., orders, surges, etc.)? Is there any geographical significance to the KR?

Two faves, one that others have mentioned (on another thread), and one that they haven't: "Honor is dead...But I'll see what I can do..." This SO captures Kaladin's character and his role in the saga's plot. "Oh...I don't mean the Almighty. Tanavast was a fine enough fellow - bought me drinks once - but he was not God." I loved the casualness with which he tosses off the Honor Shardholder as a good guy. What must Jasnah have thought!

“True Wit is Nature to advantage dress’d What oft was thought, but ne’er so well expressed” [ASIDE: In the Spirit of Sanderson, I thought I’d begin with an epigraph of my own, this one from Essay on Criticism, the 1709 poem by Alexander Pope. Unlike our Wit, Pope was a hunch-backed asthmatic dwarf. But, like Wit, Pope was the leading satirist of his time. His jibes earned him the enmity of many. Tupac and the Notorious B.I.G. were not the original “gangstas”; when Pope wandered the London streets at night, he took with him two loaded pistols and his two Great Danes (what an image!) You’ve all heard many of the lines from Essay on Criticism, but might not have known their source. Here are a few: “Fools rush in where angels fear to tread”; “A little learning is a dangerous thing”; “To err is human, to forgive, divine.” ASIDE OVER – thanks for reading this far!] On WoR’s last page, Wit says to Jasnah, “You’ll find God in the same place you’re going to find salvation from this mess…Inside the hearts of men.” Of similar import is this phrase from the epigraph to Chapter 71, from the Second Letter: “[Rayse] bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context.” [Second aside: Does that mean the Second Letter writer considers Adonalsium to be God?] I believe these statements capture the theme of The Stormlight Archives, and perhaps all of the Cosmere novels: the importance of balance. Not necessarily of “harmony,” which assumes perfect equilibrium, but of balance, offsetting characteristics that temper the edges of each. The shattering of Adonalsium upset the balance of the Cosmere by giving primacy to specific aspects of Godhood: Honor, Hatred, Growth, Ruin, Preservation, etc. Maybe it’s the imbalance of each Shard holder that causes them to lose their humanity, since each Shardic Intent operates within them unopposed. I think Wit’s statement to Jasnah means that to defeat Odium, men’s hearts must return to honor – doing what’s right and not only what’s legal. That doesn’t mean that people won’t hate, but that hate cannot be allowed to dominate them – balance is necessary. Sadeas and Nalan appear to be character devices to illustrate what happens when imbalance captures the heart. Adolin may end up showing us balance despite his lapse. As I’ve said in other posts, Honor binds, Odium divides – centripetal and centrifugal forces. To find the place in the middle, they must be combined – not the harmony of Mistborn, but a complementary tension. I think the Battle of Champions in Book 5 will be fought by Kaladin and Eshonai (not Szeth, who is clearly unbalanced in every meaning of that word and will likely continue his story into the second five books). Halfway through her bonding with the stormspren, Eshonai tried to halt the process. This may have caused an imperfect bonding and may explain why the rhythms of peace still try to assert themselves within her. I predict that during the Battle of Champions, her desire for peace will defeat her desire for destruction. Eshonai and Kaladin together will form that unity, that bonding of honor, that will enable them to halt Odium’s gains – the Everstorm may or may not continue at that point, but Odium will be temporarily thwarted. In the second five books, he will seek another approach: hatred among men. Odium is already a long way towards reaching that goal (see Jah Keved and the wars in the West). One last observation: before WoR was released, I speculated on another post what Odium gains by the Desolations and the Everstorm. Based on the Second Letter, epigraph to Chapter 69, we now know that Odium is bound to the Rosharian planetary system: “Rayse is captive. He cannot leave the system he now inhabits. His destructive potential is, therefore, inhibited.” The natural inference is that he seeks to destroy Roshar to free himself from his bonds. The Second Letter writer further states (in the epigraph to Chapter 70) that this binding might have been by “Tanavast’s design.” One can envision that either the Oathpact or Tanavast’s splintering might have had the effect of causing Odium to be so bound. How interesting, then, that Hoid/Wit, who has “never been a force for equilibrium” and who “tow chaos behind [him] like a corpse dragged by one leg through the snow” (epigraph to Chapter 74) should be the one who seeks to re-establish equilibrium by focusing on “men’s hearts.” He may be (reluctantly) content to destroy humankind on Roshar if necessary to triumph over Odium, he tells Dalinar. But if humankind is to save itself, it must find balance within its own hearts.

And in keeping with this topic, I think Rysn is tres cool. (Lift too, but no one else has mentioned Rysn.) She is probably the only person on Roshar who is attended by a healthy Larkin - a reward for her (questionable) courage. That will be huge in the coming books (probably in the second five). She is so earnest and direct, with no quit in her. I think she will be of the order of Chach, "brave/obedient." I look forward to seeing how her story develops, particularly in concert with others.

Excuse me? Kaladin isn't very intelligent? The man whose surgeon father couldn't believe how quickly Kaladin absorbed medical information? Who Shallan thought was brilliant? Who Dalinar repeatedly praised for his insight, intuition and judgment? You might want to rethink your comment, FlatLine.

I'm going to propose something preposterous that I posted on another thread about the Dawnshards (which are, in all likelihood, splinters of Adonalsium). Rather than the Rosharian super-continent being a dragon, I suggest it is a giant greatshell (just like the Reshi Islands are greatshells). WoB is that one of the Dawnshards is unique. Not being an astronomer, it seems odd to me that a planet should have so relatively little land mass. And if the continent were alive, it would explain why the continent seems to have moved in circles, as if the continent were slowly turning around. Roshar is dominated by crustacean lifeforms, presumably the original lifeforms that spawned from the original Adonalsium splinters. Others have noted that the crustaceans probably pre-date the arrival of Honor and Cultivation. Perhaps Roshar is one of the largest Adonalsium splinters, which might explain how Honor bound Odium to the Rosharian planetary system. Speculation piled on speculation...Just saying!

Roshar is a crustacean-based world. What if the Adonalsium splinters created these lifeforms? What if the unique dawnshard is the Roshar super-continent itself - a super giant great shell like the Reshi islands only much much bigger? That might explain why the continent looks like it has spun around at times. Alternatively, maybe the santhid or Larkin is the unique dawnshard. Each seems to have unique features and properties. Just some speculations...

Isn't it equally possible that the Nightwatcher is a spren anthropomorphizing both Civilization and Odium - the boon and the curse? The Nightwatcher could still be Wyndle's "mother," but with a touch of Odium in her. (Just like Shallan's father...)

At a recent book signing, Brandon mentioned that the two most influential authors he’s read are Robert Jordan (to which everyone laughed) and Victor Hugo. I’m glad that Brandon so far has avoided hundreds of pages detailing the history of the Paris sewers and the Battle of Waterloo (or their Rosharian equivalents), but I did notice what might be a few allusions to other sources: In the Prologue, Gavilar says to Jasnah, “Is it terribly difficult for you?...Living with the rest of us, suffering our average wits and simple thoughts? Is it lonely to be so singular in your brilliance, Jasnah?” This reminded me of the scene in the 1987 movie Broadcast News, where the station manager says to the hyper-obsessive Jane, played by Holly Hunter, something to the following effect: “It must be terrible always thinking you’re the smartest person in the room, that you’re always right and the rest of us are always wrong…” [Jane, in a very quiet voice, answers “It is.”] Then on page 217 of the hardcover book, Pattern tells Shallan she cannot be other than who she is: “I will not stop vibrating. The wind will not stop blowing. You will not stop drawing.” This line reminds me of the similar expression from T.S. Eliot’s 1927 essay, “Shakespeare and the Stoicism of Seneca”: “The poet makes poetry, the metaphysician makes metaphysics, the bee makes honey, the spider secretes a filament…[each] merely does.” I also thought I read some comment by Shallan about how “amiable” Adolin is, but I couldn’t find it. The line seemed very Austenesque to me. Are there other references buried in WoR that you may have noticed?

If opposites attract, Windrunners and Lightweavers are at the opposing ends of a central axis in the KR chart. Shalladin: its inevitable!

Adolin may indeed become a KR and it is possible that he already has a new or revived spren. But his character has darkened irretrievably. Yes, Adolin is "going bad"... What bothers me about his murder of Sadeas wasn't the event itself but his callousness in its aftermath. During the murder, he was filled with "irrevocable rage" and a touch of amusement. But afterwards, he chose to hide from responsibility in a very cold-blooded way: cutting off his cuffs to ensure no one would see blood on them and hiding Oathbringer. Then he casually walked away and pretended to be elsewhere when he joined his group. I suspect he will be discovered. As we see on all the TV cop shows, some blood always finds its way into evidence. He may even confess to Renarin or Shallan. He is certainly no longer the golden boy of the story. Beyond the murder, it bothers me that he views his relationship with Shallan in "power" terms. First, he was the star and she was lucky to have him, even though she fascinated him. But now that she's a KR, he doesn't know where he fits. In a revealing comment, he says that she is now "more important than even a lighteyes." What arrogance! Unable to find his place in a newly positioned world, he just kills his principal tormentor. Yes, Adolin has gone bad.

I thought that Nightblood determines who is "evil" based on who covets it, rather than the "opinion of its owner." According to the Coppermind Wiki article on Nightblood: "The Breaths it inherited decided 'evil was someone who would try to take the sword and use it for evil purposes, selling it, manipulating and extorting others, that sort of thing.' "Those it defines as 'evil' feel drawn to possess it; once an 'evil' person picks Nightblood up, the sword is able to take control and will murder anyone in the vicinity who is evil, finally killing its wielder when there is no one left. A 'good' person, someone who wouldn't want to use Nightblood for evil purposes, feels sick in Nightblood's vicinity. [Empasis added.]" Maybe Szeth would win a fight against Kaladin, or any Windrunner, because they'll all get sick and vomit their way through the fight, but Nightblood wouldn't attack him or them, given the primacy of honor to a Windrunner. Other orders though...

I haven’t seen any commentary on the following, and I’d like to invite some: Did Dalinar have a vision at the beginning of the chapter when he bonds with the Stormfather? He remembers the warmth from this vision from prior visions, and he believes that it feels like his other visions. The Stormfather claims it must have been a normal dream. So…did Cultivation or the Nightwatcher send it? If not the Shard or its spren, then who? How did Shallan become a KR-in-training? Her mother thought she was “one of them” before Pattern materialized into her shardblade. And its elsewhere made clear that she had reached a certain level of Lightweaver competence (including sound) before the trauma from murdering her mother banished her memory of Pattern. So how was she already “broken” at such a young age? Why did the “scholar” Pattern choose her in the first place? Responses welcomed!

Congratulations, Zandi! I think you've found it! But if it really is the last chapter of the series, I think this pasage refers to sometime later than the climax. Rather, to the time when Kaladin's body finally succumbs to death, long after the race (the series' battles and conflicts) has been won. The storm(light) has ceased to surge within his veins, but his soul rises to race the wind with the windspren. Kaladin will have become an idea, the dark-eyed champion who saved the world from Hatred - the "Kaladin-spren"!

Name_Here: I think of the Skybreakers as B-52 bombers to the Windrunners fighter jets. The Skybreakers can deposit their laser "bombs" (that is, however they deliver their division surge) onto a single target simultaneously and repeatedly as a group. I'm sure such power could collectively create sufficient force to shatter the plains in the way Shallan indicated: "Vibrations? Like sand on a plate? An earthquake that could break rock..." Moogle: Decayform is "A form of gods to avoid, it seems" (Listener's Song of Secrets, 27th Stanza, WoR Epigraph to Chapter 24). But the Listener's Song of War, 55th Stanza (WoR Epigraph to Chapter 26), quoted above, explicitly states that "Our gods were not who shattered these plains..." (emphasis added). xbauks: "Subterfuge" (according to Merriam-Webster) is the "the use of tricks especially to hide, avoid, or get something." While Skybreakers may not be subtle like Lightweavers, anybody can use subterfuge to avoid a consequence, especially when they can fly. But this is just a theory, based primarily on my OP points 1 and 6: who shattered the plains if not the Parshendi (the only other candidates would be one of the three Shards, certainly a possibility); and why is Stormseat the only open Oathgate? The latter suggests that the other cities with Oathgates feared the KR after what happened to Stormseat. Aside: I very much enjoy reading the posts written by the three of you. Many others are great too, but many others aren't. Thanks for taking the time to respond!

Because all my WoR theories have proved catastrophically wrong, I thought I’d try another: the cause of the Recreance was the KR’s destruction of Stormseat. Evidence: The Listener’s Song of War, 55th Stanza states :"They blame our people For the loss of that land. The city that once covered it Did range the eastern strand. The power made known in the tomes of our clan Our gods were not who shattered these plains." This seems to refer to Stormseat. If not the Listeners, then “who shattered these plains”? I posit that it was the KR. 2. WoB (somewhere) is that a “great magic” shattered the plains. 3. Chapter 38, page 6 of the Words of Radiance (epigraph to WoR Chapter 38) states “Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants’ adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest.” 4. Chapter 38, page 6 of the Words of Radiance (epigraph to WoR Chapter 40, which appears to follow the preceding paragraph consecutively or close to) states "That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named." 5. Chapter 38, page 20 states "This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at the time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine." 6. Perhaps most tellingly, we discover that the only operational Oathgate is in Stormseat. The host cities of every other Oathgate had sealed their Oathgates, as if to prevent the KR from coming into their city. I suggest that in the absence of further Desolations, some of the KR became involved in political disputes, helping the armies of some of the Silver Kingdoms against others: “the fighting was particularly intense at the time…” Whatever the “wicked thing of eminence” was, it clearly breached the Windrunners’ sense of honor, since they were the first (“primary”) to abandon their oaths. Even participating in mundane wars probably was considered dishonorable by the Windrunners, but it’s doubtful that alone would have precipitated a mass forswearing of oaths. Thus, the breach of honor had to be “wicked” and “eminent.” Shattering the plains (and Stormseat) would certainly qualify. I vote that the Skybreakers, on their own or enlisted in a competing army’s cause, used their gravitational and division surges to fly over the plains and irrevocably break them. I also believe they were the one order that kept their arms and hid “at the expense of the other nine.” Finally, I further believe that the Skybreakers were the "One [KR order who] is almost certainly a traitor to the others" (epigraph to WoR chapter 86, from the Diagram). The others, nonetheless, took the fall for the Skybreaker’s evil.

In an earlier thread, I suggested Shallan acquired her shardblade from the assassin Liss, who had just killed her “mother.” I still believe that (although I will probably be proven wrong tomorrow), but I have an additional thought: The Ghostbloods stole Shallan from her true parents and gave her to the Davars because they observed her surgebinding ability and thought she would be useful to their plans. I base this hypothesis primarily on the sketch that Shallan made right after Jasnah had killed the Kharbanth thugs. That sketch showed a long table in a lavish room where a man lay dead in a pool of blood beside a half-eaten meal. I believe this was Shallan’s real father, whom the Ghostbloods killed. She captured the memory, long-repressed, as the murderer(s) took her from the room. Shallan felt responsibility for his death, since she was the reason the Ghostbloods killed her father. Related points: Shallan may (or may not) have killed Brightlord Davar (whom she now calls her “father”), but she tells the Cryptics she is a “murderer” because she killed Liss, as I suggest in the linked thread. She may have felt killing Davar was justified in the circumstances, perhaps to defend her brothers. Davar treated Shallan differently than her “brothers,” not only because she was the sole girl and the youngest, but also because she fit so importantly in his plans. Just wanted to get this in before the book comes out. We’ll find out tomorrow!

WOW, Moogle!! What an interesting take on human nature! You think most people would turn down the chance to hold God-like power simply because their personality would too drastically change - "essentially killing [themselves]." Even in our world, Lord Acton's observation that "power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" doesn't deter too many people from seeking power. I doubt such prior knowedge would stop many in the Cosmere from embracing a Shard if offered to them. More the case if one could hold multiple Shards. Whatever fears one may have about concentrating one's personality around a single Intent lessen with the leavening effect of the second, or third, or fourth Shards' Intents. Because Ruin and Preservation were directly opposite, combined they produced Harmony - how nice! Who wouldn't choose that? And if other Shards are not directly polar, they would still have an off-setting effect. Honor and Odium combined, hatred with honor? It almost sounds like the Geneva Conventions...hating your enemy but treating them humanely. Or Devotion and Dominion - the benign dictator who is devoted to his people. (Let's assume that with Shardal Intents ideal conduct actually wins out over practical implementation.) That is why I conclude that Odium's specific Intent - the divisive force of hatred - led him to decline dilution from other Shards. Hatred by its nature just doesn't combine.

Thank you, Dros. I agree that Odium by now has probably internalized his Shard's hateful intent. His refusal to combine with the Shards he splintered - which according to the quoted WoB would change his nature - shows hatred's single-minded focus and unwillingness to bend or moderate. I further agree (and so asserted in my OP) that he WANTS to "put[] events into motion that will cause people to hate...." If that's all Odium did - ongoing Desolations causing hatefulness - that would make sense to me. But to eradicate the haters and the planet they live on seems to go beyond mere hatefulness. The explanation others gave for this further step was that Odium was "evil." Personally I don't think hatefulness is evil by itself. Odium's plan to commit "planetcide" (is there a word for this? - I keep imagining Krypton imploding or the lines from Yeats' "The Second Coming": "Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;/Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world"), whether evil or not, seems counter-productive if his goal is to foster hatefulness. In any event, I don't think this plan stems from a mere "whim." I just feel that there is something else going on here, something we don't know about yet. Hence, the speculations...The best evidence, as stated in my OP and my follow up post, is that he didn't destroy Sel or its population when he splintered Dominion and Devotion. What is different about Roshar? Finally, Harmony is indeed more powerful than Odium, since Sazed holds two Shards, not just one. Destroying Roshar won't cure this deficiency; being "crafty" may...

Thanks for your thoughts, good responses all. But it seems to me that merely being "evil," "crafty," "loathesome," "manipulative" or "dangerous" are not sufficient reasons for destroying humanity and Roshar itself. Nor do I buy the "liquidating his investment" in Roshar theory. More specifically: 1. I think it's too simple to say Odium is "evil" and therefore wants to destroy humanity. Can the essence of hatred be "evil"? Can a moral judgment be associated with hatred? Evil people may hate, but so do good people - it is simply an emotion. Because I think that Odium, despite concentrating Rayse's "loathsome" character, would not be "evil," even if Odium wishes to remain pure in his hatefulness without altering his character by combining with other Shards. If the Letter writer is correct, then Odium's greatest defect is ambition - to be the sole Cosmere Shard - not hatred. He has no more reason to hate humans than any other thing in the Cosmere, unless he hates all life everywhere (like the dark sphere in "The Fifth Element)." But that has not been hinted at yet. 2. And there is a question whether the Letter writer (whom we assume is Hoid) is correct. On the thread where Brandon revealed that Hoid and Rayse were once friends, someone suggested that a foiled friendship could cause each former friend to malign the other's character. We don't know who was in the wrong here. Maybe Hoid wanted Rayse's Shard, but Rayse took it first, using legitimate means. Hoid may simply be jealous. 3. I like hoser's suggestion that Odium must "liquidate his investment" in Roshar to maintain his power before moving on to challenge the other Shards. But he didn't need that additional power during his "brief visit" to Sel to splinter Dominion and Devotion. Why would he need it now? So I'm still Confused...

I keep asking myself why Odium would want to destroy humans. The Letter (written by Hoid?) from the epigraphs of WoK Part 2 suggests that Odium’s goal is to splinter the other Shards. Then he would stand without peers. On Roshar, he has already killed Tavanast and splintered Honor; and on Sel, he has killed Aona and Skai and splintered their respective Shards, Devotion and Dominion. He did not kill humans on Sel (although war is imminent between the Dakhor and everyone else, but that may be from the splinters of Dominion). Why does he need the Desolations and the Everstorm on Roshar? [The following speculations reveal my ignorance of Shard theory. This is where you folks come in. Help!] To me, Odium would want humans and whomever they are then fighting (currently the Listeners) to continue their war through eternity – the “Everstorm.” While Honor seeks to bind, Odium seeks to divide – it is the nature of hatred, the philosophic concept of the “Other.” Who will be left to hate if he has killed off all of Roshar’s peoples? In this respect, the real “Voidbringers,” at least metaphorically, are not the Unmade or the Ten Deaths, but everyone who lives by hatred and division – e.g., Alakavish, the surgebinder who caused a horrific war prior to the Desolation in Nohadon’s time, and Sadeas and his ilk, and maybe even most Alethi lighteyes. But SA does seem focused on human destruction, rather than everlasting war. I can think of only three possible answers why this would be so, none of which are completely satisfactory. Any suggestions or answers of your own would be most appreciated. Answer 1: Odium Hates Humans Because Honor and Cultivation Created Them Odium hates humans because Honor and Cultivation created them on Roshar (although there is apparently some question about this). Perhaps the romantic triangle among Tavanast, the unnamed Cultivation holder, and Rayse that some have (facetiously?) posited is true: Odium wants to eliminate the other Shards’ creations, just as the fairy tale stepmother wants to get rid of the first wife’s children. Without a romantic triangle, this answer is lame and there’s not much to say about it. If you have a different view, let’s hear it. If Rayse did hate Tavanast for personal reasons, other than Rayse’s desire to be the sole power, then I suppose this answer makes sense. Can’t see it otherwise… Answer 2: The Desolations and the Everstorm will Splinter Cultivation The Desolations and the Everstorm will ultimately kill the holder of the Cultivation Shard and splinter the Cultivation Shard itself. But if Odium had the ability to kill Tavanast and splinter Honor, why hasn’t he already splintered Cultivation? The Coppermind wiki states “It is not clear how splinters are formed.” When Odium splintered Devotion, Dominion and Honor, Odium did not destroy Sel, Roshar or their inhabitants. Is there something peculiar about Cultivation that makes the Desolations and the Everstorm a precondition to Cultivation’s splintering? Cultivation is concerned with growing things, and the Everstorm – through the pulverization of Roshar - will cut off all growth and life. Perhaps splintering occurs when a Shard is prevented from serving its intent. But why couldn’t Cultivation relocate to another planet and reinvest there, unless the Cultivation Shard is now somehow bound to Roshar? Answer 3: Periodic War and the Outpouring of Hatred Replenishes Odium’s Power The wellspring of hatred released by periodic Desolations replenishes or augments Odium’s power, just as the Well of Ascension regenerated Preservation’s power every 1,024 years. There is scant evidence for this assertion, primarily the epigraph to Chapter 11: “Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns.” It appears that Odium is the “Broken One,” since the face in the highstorm tells Kaladin that “Odium reigns.” If so, what might have “broken” Odium, and does hatred really heal him? Perhaps splintering three other Shards injured Odium. He took on Devotion and Dominion on Sel, were they were invested and he was not. Now he resides on Braize, another planet in the Rosharian system, but not on Roshar itself. Maybe being separated from Roshar “breaks” him (or maybe he is residing off-planet in view of Roshar’s impending destruction, which has nothing to do with being “broken” – or maybe he is avoiding Cultivation after having killed Tanavast). Perhaps his efforts at corrupting heralds and spren cost him? Maybe he is broken merely because his Shard is Odium, a dividing force. Maybe Odium was “broken” when he first came to Roshar, long after Honor and Cultivation according to WoB. Why did he follow them, and why did he not immediately kill Tavanast and instead entered into the Oathpact? Some have speculated that Rayse was Tavanast’s younger brother (Cain to his Abel). We don’t know why he is the “Broken One,” if in fact he is. (There must be SOME reason why those of you with lots of upvotes become “Broken Ones” yourselves…) But IF he is “broken,” widespread hatred may well be the thing that can heal him. Perhaps Odium entered into the Oathpact to secure periodic Desolations culminating in the Everstorm that will complete the healing. Moogle made the excellent suggestion that the Oathpact required force proportionality. Odium may have agreed to proportionality for at least three reasons. First, Honor and Cultivation at the time had twice Odium’s combined power, since Shards theoretically are equal in power. Second, Odium lacked Honor’s capacity to bind Rosharian allies to himself, since, as stated, hatred only divides. Most importantly, if hatred somehow replenishes or augments Odium’s power, then limited periodic proportional engagements are well-suited for this purpose (again, just like the Well of Ascension, but on a different timetable). Further Speculations Dalinar’s vision of the coming void, presented by Honor, may be inaccurate. Honor by his own admission is bad at seeing the future, so he may be wrong. Perhaps he foresees a world without any bonds of any kind, in which case that world would blow away as dust. But if the Everstorm is eternal hate-spawning war that helps Odium in some way – replenishment or augmentation - it doesn’t make sense for him to pulverize the planet. Maybe the Listeners began to understand Odium’s plan. They ran to exile to avoid the urge to fight instilled by the Listener gods (the Ten Unmade?). The Listeners murdered Gavilar because, I believe, he was planning to reinstate the KR, which the Listeners feared would return their gods. In this light, I wonder whether Dalinar’s visions (which I believe Gavilar also had) may have been sent by Odium to CAUSE another war between humans and the Listeners. The real war against Odium may be for the peoples of Roshar to find peace among themselves. When Honor says to Danilar “unite them” (if it IS Honor), he may be speaking in the context of the KR, but his message is much broader than them or the Alethi. He means EVERYONE on Roshar must unite peacefully to defeat Odium. The pivotal characters may be Kaladin (not Dalinar) and Eshonai. They are the ones from their respective races/cultures who desire peace and honor – Dalinar just wants to end the War of Reckoning on any terms that will permit the Alethi to return to Alethkar and reunite the kingdom. Kaladin and Eshonai, however, each respect the other’s culture and do not want to fight. How ironic (and unlikely) if these – the greatest fighters from their respective sides – should end up facing each other as the two champions…and then make peace! (And perhaps the second five book series will be about Odium turning to a war between another race and humans, or among humans…) Just some highly speculative thoughts, each with many holes... What DOES Odium gain by the Desolations and the Everstorm?