Aleksiel

I don't see Jasnah as the type of person who'd do that. She won't take over anything, she'll want to find out what Shallan knows and works on, certainly. Though I wonder if Shallan will tell Jasnah about the Ghostbloods. My guess is no and that will be the center of their future conflict. Jasnah won't take it well and probably not in the right way if she is to discover on her own that Shallan conspires with her enemies. I don't think Pattern will approve of Shallan lying also, though I can't be certain.

Jasnah's PoV shows no indication that Sadeas has harmed her. She even thought of going to him for help. Clearly wouldn't have been the case if he had done anything to her. Sadeas and Dalinar were said to be on edge ever since Gavilar died, which explains Adolin's feeling towards him for me. I didn't read it as Adolin hating Sadeas until the Tower. May I ask for some quotes from WoK to show Adolin's uncalled hatred?

No worries, I should have left the entire quote instead of only the part on Amaram, it would have made better sense then.

I didn't mean to imply that, I was referring to the part of the post about the person who broke/harmed Jasnah being alive.

Jasnah dislikes Amaram? She met him in the prologue and thought how there can't be a relationship between them like the one Gavilar wished, which first isn't exactly dislike and second not a reaction that shows he harmed her personally in any way. If anyone raped Jasnah (which I personally doubt), he is dead. Harming Jasnah is a death sentence, the way I read her character. Jasnah works with many assassins as we've seen and is perfectly capable of killing someone on her own. If she has been wronged by anyone, she already had her revenge/justice.

There is a topic on Bondsmiths forging Plate. I don't think anyone has brought up more than the name as evidence. edit: I like BreathTaker's suggestion. We know there were many shcolars among the Radiants and Progression might be able to do it though I lean towards Truthwatchers more than Edgedancers. All Plates are similarly looking without paint unlike Blades, which are visibly different from each other.

I thought you continued the same thought instead of switching to another, thank for the clarification!

I don't really see how the elephant metaphor explains Szeth not giving up Nightblood.

I liked the scene very much. I think it showed much of Shallan's personality - her coping mechanism, her sense of justice and her caring. I suspect Lightweaver can have squires like Windrunners, so her bonds with both the slaves and the soldiers are important enough so that there are good reasons to follow the beginning of those bonds and how they progress to squireship (yes, it's a word now ). It's always interesting to discuss scenes with others, at least for me. There are so many layers in WoR, so a good and thoughtful discussion enriches the experience, opens your eyes for things you've missed, helps make certain connections that would have otherwise been overlooked.

Here's the exact quote: Well, now there's no prove of Jasnah being homosexual. I thought for some reason she spoke of a woman here. I could stretch my previous theory enough to say some thugs killed the man she was obviously fond of/loved and it still works for me.

Jasnah's notes on Sadeas describe him as an intelligent man, nothing to point in direction of him hurting her. She also thought nothing bad of him in the prologue when she met Ivory (therefor had already been broken). Unlikely. Nothing indicates them being close enough for Jasnah to share such a thing and Adolin never had more than a hunch to distrust Sadeas. He isn't like Shallan to keep things from himself, so it would have been mention in his PoV if he knew of such a thing. And he could have used it as a reason to duel Sadeas.

Navani could have many other reasons for not missing Gavilar and if she knew he did something to Jasnah, she certainly wouldn't have wondered what changed her. Jasnah spoke fond of him when discussing his interest in the Parshendi and how that was one of the few occasions she felt connected to him, but I can't find the exact quote. I'm certainly supporter of the idea that a girl Jasnah loved (regardless if as a friend or a lover) was the one who suffered and was likely killed by some men, which broke Jasnah and made her withdraw from future relationships. It's pure speculations of course and many other things can explain the little info we have. It's just what I find most likely for now. I said that snap is speculation, I ddn't claim he broke at that point. About Dalinar we'll have to agree to disagree. Losing a loved one is very traumatic and when you add guilt to that I can see it as more than enough to break anyone, but you are entitled to have your own opinion. Regarding Renarin I strongly reccomend you read the threads I linked for you, because it has been discussed in great details

Thanks! It's certainly one possibility. Though I have some counter arguments. She was the king's daughter, who would dare touch her? Certainly not Gavilar, else she wouldn't have spoken fondly of him. Jasnah used to be close to Navani, she would have told her mother. I can't imagine someone wronging her without being executed afterwards. Jasnah general attitude towards men and her reaction to Karbranthina thugs hint towards this direction, however I am more inclined to believe men like that rapped and killed a girl Jasnah was inlove with. Her fondness for the book of endless pages hints she might have had a female lover or at least a very close female friend, who was possibly killed by such thugs. Here: emphasis mine

Why do you compare any of them to Shallan's case? We have zero knowledge of what broke her, only more speculations. We don't know yet how Jasnah was broken and we may not find out until her book. Navani mentioned in WoR that Jasnah suddenly changed from a curious child to a cold and distant person, so something happened to her, but the specifics are no more than speculations. Dalinar has been haunted by guilt ever since his brother's death until the end of WoR when he finally fought Szeth. Gavilar had asked Dalinar to follow the Codes on the very night he was killed, yet Dalinar drank so much he passed out. It's enough to break him, but it might have been something else. He'll have his own book, too. Elhokar being a potential Radiant is a speculation. Yes, he sees some spren, but that can mean anything at this point. His father's death might have been enough to break him, the death of a loved one is a very traumatic event. Adolin was said to 'snap' before murdering Sadeas. Whether or not he'll be a Radiant is an open discussion. We have WoB some Orders would approve of his actions, nothing more.

Kaladin didn't just grimaced when the Blade he touched screamed. You aren't giving Renarin nearly enough credit.

Some people noticed and asked Brandon, not the other way around if I recall correctly. There are some discussions on it, you might want to check them out. Those are the first two that come to my mind. Why do you have a problem with the Kholins being Radiants? The attraction of spren is based on brokenness and personality, so it's consistent and logical for Dalinar to have raised his sons in a spren-approved manner. I see no reason for Renarin not to be one. From a metatext perspective it was the most logical way of his character growth. In-world he's obviously broken enough and fits the in-book WoR description of Truthwatchers. I had some problems understanding how is he considered learned, but others pointed out his observance is one way to look at being learned. There's a thread on how the primary attribute attracts the spren and only after the bond starts forming is when the secondary attribute starts showing, which is a theory that resolved my problem with Shallan's honesty and Renarin's giving. I don't know if it will for you. About Vasher and Nightblood... Well, I suppose you just didn't like them as much. You might had wrong expectations of them when you started Warbreaker. They aren't the major characters and weren't intended to steal the book from Siri and Vivenna. Perhaps give them some time to grow on you. One can't always like all characters, so don't let it bother you. edit: link added

Gotta love Wit. The beginning of a beautiful bromance! And it keeps getting better:

Dalinar described Renarin's joy to see him after the Tower like one of the rare occasions he expressed visibly strong emotions, I don't know if it's evidence of the emotional detachment you mention. This is the first thread on topic that comes to my mind. This is another thread discussing Renarin along with other characters.

I thought about it as well. Ivory seems to be able to teleport himself around, so if he can do it fast enough, it might seem like two things happening at once to outsiders perspective. Another possibility is Jasnah infusing Ivory and another spren/something else. Shallan's rescue at the beginning of WoR by the santhid seemed to me like she somehow unconsciously communicated with him and Lift certainly felt what that larkin in Nale's hands felt. I speculate this as foreshadowing that Radiants had more than their surges and human squires. Jasnah seems quite ahead of both Shallan and Lift with her six years of experience and Elsecallers were said to be the true masters of Shadesmar. Thus I speculate she either used Ivory and something yet unknown or Ivory who teleported fast enough to make it seem like two things. Or some spren might be able to be at two places at once, so it was Ivory again.

Of course Kal would have felt differently, he used to in that very wagon just like them. However, Shallan was also thinking how she could have ended up there as well. Shallan has developed a coping mechanism to distance herself from many events and calls it 'coldness of clarity' like when she told Tvlakv to fight instead of run. It might have been the case, I don't remember the exact scene. It's her way of dealing when emotions try to overwhelm her.

Thinking of slavery as 'mercy' can explain why the slave debt is almost impossible to pay - in a way a slave already had the mercy of being allowed to life, so asking for freedom when others in his/her place would be executed, is like a plea to end your lifelong sentence. The executed doesn't get a second chance, so in Vorin logic why should someone from a lower class get a privilege denied to higher borns?

This thread got me thinking if Jasnah soulcasted those thugs from afar in WoK by infusing Ivory. Seems like a neat explanation.

I didn't say it meant anything, you just asked for the source of the speculation that the Heralds made the Oathgates Nonetheless, I disagree. The right of travel is what's based on the Heralds declaration. The quote itself does't provide any grounds for speculation whether or not the Heralds were involved in the making of the Oathgates.

It's not that. Each book will focus on one Order and the discussion is who will present the Dustbringers when their book comes out. I think most people don't support the one Radiant per Order theory. Do we have evidence Eshonai's book won't be about the Dustbringers? She seems like a better match for Willshappers, but I didn't expect Dalinar to be a Bondsmith, so my judgement might be off once again.

The slave debt passes to the next owner. Kaladin was thinking of that when Tvlakav sold him, how in the documents is written the amount that has been paid and what remains of the slave debt. Besides, Dalinar just freed them. He paid Sadeas, then declared the bridgemen free without complications.