Aleksiel

Shallan not appealing to everyone isn't because she's too complex, simplistic characters don't appeal to people. This sounds rather snobbish, basically saying 'not everyone is smart enough to get her'.

Please don't use Teft's explanation for the first Ideal. That doesn't work for Radiants like Malata for example and Lopen swore 'journey before pancakes'. Calderis has a great topic on this somewhere. Also, we do not know for sure the new Bondsmith Ideal and even if it was only one, so you are making an assumption here, too. There's like half more of Dalinar's speech from the sentence you pointed to where the SF interferes and accepts the Words. Which Words? Still waiting for canon. Nale said Lift's a disgrace to her Order and while he's crazy that doesn't mean he has no idea what he's talking about, so don't brush off the articulate, elegant and fashionable points so easily. Also, I think you are missing the cultivation part of surgebinding - people don't start as this perfect archetype of a certain order, they grow and evolve. Not everyone manages to swear the last Ideal, as seen in the gemlibrary some struggle with the Fourth. Kaladin had to grow as a character to say the Third Ideal - Kal in WoK wouldn't have been able to say he's protect even those he hates and mean it. Adolin mostly ignoring Syl in Shadesmar is a non-argument so long as I'm concerned, Lift has ignored a bunch of people, too. ED ideals are open to interpretation like all oaths and nowhere do they swear to pay attention and listen to everybody always. Adolin has great potential to be Edgedancer and has bonded the appropriate spren that seems to be waking up (for the lack of a better phrase). Adolin and Lift will make for a great contrast.

Wait, I can actually rant here my frustration? Good! I hate that little traitor Moash, but I voted for Shallan. I liked her in WoK (terrible humor aside), had mixed feelings about her in WoR and I think OB dragged my impression of her to the ground. I don't want to repeat things I have said about her for previous books, so I'll focus on two things from OB. She has some surgebinding experience she doesn't remember. She said a new Ideal right at the end of WoR. Yet neither of those is a satisfactory explanations of how she suddenly manages to make her illusions perform plays and fighting sequences when last book she could even manage to make them stay if she wasn't looking or hadn't attached the illusion to Pattern. The skill jump was too much too fast for me. At least Shallan had the decency to wonder about this, too. She even managed to hold hands and have conversations with her illusions That was terrible. Terrible in a way that leads me to my number two - last book (yes, I'm bringing WoR again) she recognized Veil was part of her. I thought the creation of Radiant would be no problem and Shallan will eventually just accept her as part of herself, too, integrating this new persona as well. But it turns out Shallan actually can't integrate even Veil, let alone Radiant. Why did Veil become even more separate? That was so frustrating to read! This is such a huge issue that can't disappear in few chapters, yet I sincerely don't want another book on Shallan and her extreme personality issues.

I don't see how that's plausible and even if it was, I hope it doesn't happen and he's a normal surgebinder. No need to constantly add things to an already special cast. Radiants are supposed to be amazing and powerful on their own and we already have three with added buffs - Lift, Renarin and Dalinar. Adding to that will only make the average KR feel cheap.

The whole 'Ancient Daughter' was unnecessary. Syl was special and amazing as it is, no reason to over do it.

Sadeas, the mastermind behind the re-founding the KR. He clearly created the circumstances in which a WR could thrive and gather squires, yet Kaladin, being uneducated darkeyes, couldn't see the Truth behind this. Thankfully glorious Sadeas made the time to create the Diagram and counsel Cultivation on how to best preserve Roshar. Let his wisdom and masterful planning not full you, the mighty Sadeas has not fallen, but oversees the whole cosmere in all three realms. The spren needed his help in Shadesmar, so he is currently unavailable in the PR. Please stay tuned for his second coming. Of course, the average reader will remain unaware of all of this until Secret History of Roshar is published.

Five. RIP Eth, you poor bridgeman, whose only fault was your name started with the wrong letter

Well, Brandon said the meaning will manifest eventually, so I'd expect a future scene or something. Otherwise I thought it was him as a captain of Bridge Four, because there are four spears and his above them as symbol of leadership, but apparently not.

Well, the Sadeas highprince did die... again Anyone on board the Ialadin ship? No?

I probably should have added source, too It's from 2015, so after WoR. I can't think of anything fitting this in OB, my guess is it's still to come. That's why I suggested his House glyph, but it could be something else.

Probably, but I don't remember. It looks like stylized sas glyph to me.

So no connection to Mistborn, but there is some meaning we might be unaware of. May be Kal will turn it into his House symbol.

I wonder, too. Especially since Pattern said WR's surgebinding makes more noise than LW, which is why Kal inhaling stormlight drew the crying spren, whereas Shallan's illusions were under the radar, so I'd say spotting a WR should be way easier than a LW, but... I remember some sharders saying (critically) how rules don't seem to apply to Stormblessed

Spren don't pass through physical objects, so it can't sink in the stones it if that's what you mean by go into the ground. In my opinion they were destroying all hiding places. Some spren are more into the PR than others. Note Pattern can't hide, for all we know once Elhokar's spren crossed from Shadesmar, it can't return on its own. It's probably too mindless to do much and just goes by instinct.

I'd say they have the determination to tear down a whole palace for any radiantspren:

I also think Kal will go to Braize, I remember Peter saying they had calculated how long it would take to reach the moons or something like that.Though I'm not sure that's the preferable way, may be elsecalling would be better than flying. However, I do not expect new Heralds to emerge and renew the Oathpact unless our heroes are really desperate and choose this option for the first five arch only to then try and think of a better solution in the second five. I won't say it's impossible, but unlikely. It could be just the memories of the Heralds, though. We already had Taln having glimpses of Damnation. While I'd expect more than that, I simply want to point out it's not necessary.

@PhineasGage We don't know yet. I doubt most spren will be as easy to put on the H-C scale as honorspren and cultivationspren, who make the two opposite sides. I'd say inkspren lean a bit more towards the H end of the spectrum based on Ivory saying he worries how changeable are people and change seems to be important for C, whereas H would probably prefer things to remain the way they are. Orders getting along with each other doesn't seem like a reliable indicator, because we know WR and SB were at odds with each other and both seem pretty much on the H if you ask me. I don't think you should expect broken people in general to form bonds, at least not before the current SA events. Those spren who formed nahel bonds are isolated cases and for now we've seen only honorspren willing to start returning to humans at the end of OB. The Circle (cultivationspren) send only one - Wyndle. They had considered Ym and then preferred Lift because of their mother's gift (so may be from C herself like in Dalinar's case, not just the Nightwatcher). They send one to see how it goes and not to someone at the center of anything too important, so may be they didn't want to attract attention and it happened relatively recently, thus I personally do not see not sending a cultivationspren to anyone else as a sign there are no other potential ED. It goes for all orders.

To address (in general) the questions above about spren - radiantspren are a mixture of H and C, some identify more with one or the other. Relevant WoB in spoiler tags for length: It makes sense those who lean on one side more will share certain traits. I can see both honorspren and highspren claiming they are the best at representing H - be it by following the spirit or the letter of oaths and promises. On the other side we have Wyndle, who doesn't care much about how many laws, written or unwritten rules his radiant breaks, because he has different priorities.

It's great to have all of this in one thread! However, can I make a request - could you guys also mention the novels where those people and items are from? I don't pay that much attention to other cosmere stories and there are some I haven't read, so it will be nice if you include this info, too. For example 'merciful domi' doesn't ring a bell at all Last time aviar appeared in a discussion, I had to check coppermind to figure out what people were talking about I suspect I'm not the only one feeling lost when it comes to cross cosmere references.

Thanks, @kari-no-sugata! It could be related to Honor dying, one epigraphs notes: It comes from a smokestone, so it should be a SB saying this. This could hint to the Orders's general reluctance to buy whatever crazy stories Honor might have told the last KR, SF hinted to something like that. Honor's intent likely had overpowered Tanavast's personality at that point. Interestingly enough no gemlibrary entries sound like people about to abandon their duty, so I think something else unexpected must have happened when Melishi and his coalition tried to wipe out the last voidbringers and Ba-Ado-Mishram for good. About the Dovcanti epic I think it could be a few centuries after this, may be two or three at most. At least according to the last updated timeline Recreance is about 1700 years before our present, but there's a couple of centuries margin error to it. @Ookla of Daybreak I'd say so. Also, note the use of 'we' - sounds like Nale was still with his Order. Yet the TW entries (from my first post) talk about 'the end of war as Heralds promised us', which begs the question - was it a reference to the lie when the Heralds broke the Oathpact or something more recent?

I'd like to bring your attention to Maleshi, now mentione twice - in WoR and OB (emphasis mine): Melishi – the sole Bondsmith of the last Radiant generation during a False Desolation. He imprisoned Ba-Ado-Mishram, the highprincess of the Unmade and commander of Odium’s forces (according to Mythica), who was providing voidlight for the parsh in the absence of Odium - already imprisoned by Honor at that time I assume. These parsh are ‘the devils’ the KR were said to be fighting at Feverstone Keep in Dalinar’s vision of Recreance. Not only did Melishi and the coalition of Radiants manage to capture Ba-Ado-Mishram, but also caused the fighting parsh to lose their ability to form bonds with spren. Around this time the Last Legion escaped all and hid until their descendants were discovered by Kholin expedition. Somehow they managed to avoid losing the ability to bond spren, so the imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram is not the main reason other parsh were stuck in dullform. So, matching False Desolation, cognitive destruction of most parsh and Recreanse, we get Windrunners and Stonewards abandoning their Shards for people to easily find and take. If the reasoning behind it was what was done to the parsh, surely this wasn’t the best way to do it. They deliberately left both Plates (that could have been dismissed for all we know and disappear as a footnote in history) and Blades out in the open for anyone to take at Feverstone Keep. The only threat I can think of that is worth fighting with Shards are Odium’s forces, so I suggest the Radiants were inclined to think they did not permanently defeat their enemy. In the light of all that, I do not believe the revelation humanity isn’t originally from Roshar played as big a role as the Stormfather claimed. They disbanded for whatever actual reason, yet left invaluable weapons to humanity for future war. It is interesting to point out previous books claimed Urithiru was abandoned before Recreanse, yet there doesn’t seem to be much of a time difference between the two. How whatever was happening with the Sibling, Urithiru becoming unsafe and uninhabitable (for more see Urithiru the corrupted city), along with the tensions between Windrunners and Skybreakers, the only ones who kept their Oaths to present day, is related to it all remains to be seen.

Death rattles are supposed to be about the future, yet you interpret some as if they are about the past. I can't say I agree with this. Dalinar counts nine and thinks how there should be one more, which is speculated to be Venli, so I think we can say it's about the new Radinats and two Heralds. I wonder if this is Jasnah choosing to not kill Renarin. Though I'd say this rattle goes with 'and so the night will rein because the choice of honor is life', which doesn't apply to the situation. Kholinar taken over by the Unmade, the palace was described as dark.

Sometime in 2014 is the earliest I can point to. But it was before there was a WoB Maya was dead ED spren.

@FuzzyWordsmith The conversation about Adolin being Edhedancer material predates the revelation Maya is ED spren, so no, it is not confirmation bias.

@Calderis it sounds reasonable. If Dalinar's previous Ideal is any indication, then his new one is most likely It took the SF several paragraphs before saying these words are accepted, so I could be wrong. However, the second sentence reminds me of another ideal Brandon gave us without clarifying which Order it belonged to: 'I will stand where others fall'.