Aleksiel

I can't agree bravery was the key to killing Sadeas, because there was nothing brave about what Adolin did: stabbing in the eye an unprepared foe. If anything, I'd go with anger, not a divine attribute. Don't forget Windrunners are supposed to be about whats right, and in a way every Order is about doing the right thing the way they see it. Even Sadeas was doing what he thought right, so I doubt there would be such an oath. Remember how Kal tried to convince himself to help assassinate Elhokar using the metaphor of the limb that needed to be removed for the good of the body (or something, I'm too lazy to find the quote)? I think would have worked for an Edgedancer. And I think that's part of the reason they were called deadly and were feared. They'd be the Order that's most likely to hang around rich, powerful people; add their tendency to care deeply about the less fortunate, remove the WIndrunners and Skybreakers limitations, and you have Radiants whose arrival makes many shiver and has earned them a deadly reputation even among those they help. Kal healed his arm after it was cut by a Blade in a matter of seconds, I can't imagine any Order having better self-healing than the others. I think this usage of Regrowth is reserved to healing others and doesn't enhance their own survivability directly. Adolin doesn't yet care on Edgedancer level, but he has the potential to get there. His protectiveness is driven by love; it's a different motivation than Kal's. He's not driven by recklessness or even bravery. He's brave enough to protect the people he cares about, but bravery itself is not his leading character trait. He does show obedience, but more to the society norms. He's been talking back to Dalinar all the way in WoK. Keep in mind the other proto-Radiants didn't explicitly expressed both attributes at the time they attracted spren or at least it's not something everyone will agree on. Did Shallan seem honest when she got Pattern back? Was Dalinar guiding? Renarin giving? I had a hard time accepting he has traits that allow him to pass as learned. I've wondered about it as well. Could it that he's slowly reviving his Blade and it somehow communicates with him on subconscious level like when he was fighting Szeth and suddenly there's an italic Duck that some believe was the spren talking? Future is for Truthwatchers, but Skybreakers supposedly have some almost divine ability we know nothing of. I don't think it's an Edgedancers thing - Lift felt the pain of the larkin, so their passive power would be more like empathy. Could some hunches like these be part of the reason Stonewards were so dependable and resourceful? With so little info it's impossible to say. However, Dustbringers having such intuition is more likely to make them disobey rather than show obedience, so I'm inclined to rule their Order out on this.

Given Kal's usual ways of thinking, I was surprised he didn't blame himself for Hobber. He appears again later on, though it's only for a moment:

Well, I actually think what you described as Releaser's mentality to be the Edgedancer's thing and that's why they were feared upon their arrival as the epigraph in chapter 46 states. At least that's how imagine them to be - not having the difficulties a Windrunner or Skybreaker would when faced with someone like Sadeas or Amaram. Edgedancers care about the common people and won't hesitate to fix an injustice in a... hm, decisive manner. There isn't much about either Order, so it's hard to say...

Pretty much sums how they sounded to Kal in WoR on that carriage ride He could then proceed to produce his own wine, so he wouldn't have to remember any names He'd leave Ren to be Highprince after Dalinar's death in the 5th book and run a winehouse for a decade before the 6th, but then a new enemy will arise, and Adolin will then fight for the Tranquiline Halls. So, you see Releasers to be protective like Windrunners, caring like Edgedancers, lawful like Skybreakers, fierce and fearless warriors. No pressure, Adolin, you'll fit right in! You're very kind, thank you! It was everything I hoped for. It's always fun to discuss things with you, especially Adolin edit: oops, I used a wrong Order name

Well, Adolin could... could... ummm... make moss for Shallan instead of slaying it? I hope Progression does more, otherwise why not name it just Growth with Regrowth as sub-surge? Things like growing crystals, influencing tides, even making volcanoes erupt or appear... Something like the hulk-punch Kaladin does on WoR cover, but if a Releaser did it, the whole plateau would shatter? If the common people came up with the Dustbringer's name, may be they named the other Orders as well? And in reality the Orders themselves used shorter names? However, four spren already used the long versions, so probably not... Yeah, I was doing an internship and didn't have as much time It's good to be back!

And let's not forget the scene with that girl in Sadeas's camp. Adolin does care for the common people a lot more than the average lighteyes, who really don't give a damnation. However, I think he's yet to care like an Edgedancer about the people. Granted, we don't know much about Orders and we can only guess where he'd fit. Before WoR I couldn't have guessed Dalinar would end up a Bondsmith... For now both Edgedancers and Dustbringers seem good match for him. However, I prefer him to revive his Blade rather than attract a spren, so that points in favor of Edgedancers. On a different note, I really think we need abbreviations for these, because typing the Order's names is storming long... So ED for Edgedancer? DB for Dustbringer? But that's not as cool... I'm in a dilemma.

Adolin is refined, he cares a great deal about appearance, nice clothes, looking good... That's an Edgedancer vibe right there. Remembering his mother when many have forgotten about her (I'm looking at you, Dalinar). Adolin only needs to care some more about the common folk, he does in general, but not on Edgedancer level, and I think he has a very good chance to make get himself a place in the Order.

The everstorm was called a 'new thing, but old of design'. It's unclear how old the design is - before the Heralds abandoned their Honorblades or between the last desolation and present time; however it hasn't been used before, but a reason wasn't given. Since Tanavast talked about it, it must have been designed (whatever that means) before his death, though it's not clear if that was before or after the Oathpact was broken.

No, the series don't spoil each other, so don't worry.

Mmm, I'd say that was more because she looks young and thus wasn't taken seriously at first. Also, we needed a scene with her losing her temper and showing her 'clever tongue' to build her character. This is untrue actually. Visions were acceptable until the Sunmaker proved them to be lies and changed Vorinism. Also, the foresight being of the Voidbringers can be easily interpreted as all visions being related to Voidbringers, significant in fighting against them. It not unheard of for a religion to change the interpretation of a statement. The Hierocracy is after the Day of Recreance - see the 'History of Men' illustration in WoK.

I agree the Voidbringers probably wouldn't leave any survivors, but things like the Midnight Essence seemed within the abilities of the normal soldiers, so there would be hurt people in the need of healing and it would be hard, but still doable to have a team that takes care of the wounded and if possible revives someone. Also, if you're giving away soulcasters to people, it makes perfect sense to give the a regrowth fabrial as well. It's kind of funny you refer to the attack of the Midnight Essense as a time of peace. I get your point, though. However, I still think it makes sense for regrowth fabrials to be among the most common type after soulcasters - a considerable amount of people would require healing due to injuries, famine and illnesses; healing should happen as fast as possible for humanity to rebuild what was destroyed in a Desolation. I think it's a bit odd there are no legends left of Radiants reviving dead people - those things get exaggerated in legends, but completely lost? Not even a myth? And how come the lack of any surge-based fabrials except soulcasters? Too hard to be made, too easily broken, too inefficient? Plenty of possibilities. That's if there were any other surge-based fabrials, of course. Yes, if there's a fabrial for every surge, I absolutely agree Nalan has made sure to have at least one of each type. This could be it. Fabrials are fascinating, though I suspect learning more about them will be saved for later books.

It's a personal preference I suppose. I generally don't like the revival of a dead character and expect a high price for it. The Honorblade is not a price Nin paid to get Szeth back from the dead, he just used a fabrial. Makes me wonder why didn't everybody in a Desolation just go around caring one. There would be many wounded in a Desolation and we saw a Radiant having a Regrowth fabrial, so I think these fabrials should have been if not as many, then at least the second most common type after soulcasters. I highly doubt Nale has all of them. So what happened to those regrowth fabrials?

When did Kal came to the conclusion he wouldn't be happy with Laral, because she and possibly their children outranked him? Not that I ship them or anything, I just don't remember it. It's been a while

I feel a Regrowth fabrial that could bring back someone from the dead needs a higher price than gems, stormlight and right timing. It's true it's limited to only a short while after death (whatever we define as death), but it still seems too op. That might be just a personal preference, but it makes the death of a character cheap. If there are all sorts of fabrials based on the surges and they don't require a KR, then why and how were they lost and only soulcasters remained? Also, if such fabrials were common, why isn't there anything written about them, not even a legend or a myth? This needs some serious explanation. And soulcasters as well: Shallan and Jasnah both have to convince (well, Jasnah not so much ) the thing they want to soulcast to change, yet soulcasters seem to wok differently. So will all surge-based fabrial work differently - how and why? So many questions...

Ah, well in SoIaF a lot of characters die, so I understand how WoR can be frustrating if you were really caught in Martin's style. Sharbearers and surgebinders are almost invincible when it comes to the average soldier, however they were never meant for such a thing. The magic is on a different scale here with the faith of the world at stake. We have Odium's creations - the Voidbringers and possibly other things as well, like the everstorm. Odium is a Shard, god-like creature like Honor, who gave the Honorblades to the Heralds and had them fight for the sake of Roshar. Later on the spren imitated Honor's Blades, thus surgebinders started appearing to help humanity. Sometime after surgebinders became Knights Radiant - we don't know how exactly a surgebinder differs from a KR in terms of power, we can only guess. The Shards are the leftovers after the Knights Radiant betrayed their Oaths in the day of Recreance. It's all on a different scale than the average fantasy. Think of it like angles vs demons; of course an angel could easily take down dozens of human soldiers, but angels are God's warriors and were meant to fight the armies of hell.

I must admit I have completely forgotten about that fabrial in Dalinar's vision. I can't completely agree Lift resurrected someone, she cured someone who was dying, though I re-read the part and it's arguable whether or not he was dead or barely alive at that point. In my mind he was still alive, but it's not explicitly said. I know the bystanders say he was dead, but they didn't check his pulse or anything. Anyway, it can be either way. I simply did not expect at all Nale to appear from nowhere in the middle of the clashing storms to revive shard-slayed Szeth using a fabrial from ancient times. Yes, I meant the spheres Shallan knocked in her cabin that 'rolled to the door' and I assumed they went into the corridor after she opened the door, but it's an assumption, not in-text, so it was incorrect to count it as foreshadowing. Jasnah doesn't glow when she soulcast, so I didn't expect her to glow when using stormlight for something else like to heal. And I expected her to have breathed just a little, probably not enough to glow by Kal's standarts, so I was ok with her not glowing and surviving nonetheless. We got all the knowledge on her Order and stormlight healing after she was stabbed, but before she appeared again, so if you stretch the Brandon's First Law of Magic, it fits in - she doesn't live again until the readers know it's possible for a surgebinder to survive such a wound. Though it would have been better if Shallan had thought about it a little when reading about Elsecallers in in-world WoR. Yeah, I agree to disagree. Thanks for the fabrial quote!

Here's the quote: It's suspicious, thought on its own means nothing, but it's part of the foreshadowing. edit: fixing the quote

Part of the reason there aren't any KR killed is because there are no KR yet... Also, what Quiver said: surgebinding and Shards are meant to fight Voidbringers, not the average soldier. Is there any particular fight that upsets you or are you complaining in general?

There wan't anything on fabrials mimicking Regrowth or someone dead being resurrected by a surgebinder. There was very little foreshadowing about Nale's interest in Szeth and no indications he was around on the Plains. He appeared out of nowhere carrying a device we never even heard legends for. How is that better than Jasnah's case? With Jasnah we have: Missing corpse Rolling spheres near Jasnah (from the goblet Shallan knocked) Stormlight healing the fall into the chasms Judging on in-world WoR is was fairly easy to figure out her Order could travel to Shadesma May be this wan't enough for you, but I don't complain. I expected her to show up anyway.

It might not be just the Cognitive realm, I agree. Though I don't know what the Spiritual is, so I can't argue in favor or against. The concept of touching the soul or even just the soul is too vague to speculate. The comment is for the deserters who joined Shallan after her speech, not Bluth, but yes, my point was somewhat the same: the transforming's effect likely is not surge related.

I think the widely accepted explanation is that Ren's ability to see the future is passive (non-stormlight consuming like Shallan's Memory) and it comes from Cultivation, who's better at seeing the future and is involved with the KR. In fact, there's a theory that Truthwatchers are entirely of Cultivation. What you're referring to is 'seeing the future is of the Voidbringers' that could mean the visions of the future are of things that involve Voidbringers. If you think about it, the new post-Sunmaker Vorinism is the one thing that renounces seeing the future because the ardents of the Hierochracy had visions that the Sunmaker supposedly proved to be lies, then took the power and made ardent slaves while also changing Vorisims. We know nothing of the original Vorinism or what the Heralds said over 4500 years ago. edit: @Bloodfalcon Yeah, I know what you mean. But who named the Orders anyway? If it was the common folk, then I won' be surprised if they were some misconceptions, after all Dustbringers in not whet the Releasers called themselves. May be Lightweaving involves that deep self-awareness Pattern was talking about, which technically isn't any surge.

The author of the AA thinks Lightweaving has to do with the Spiritual realm, whereas Transformation comes from the Cognitive realm. The author suspects some Cognitive and Spiritual attributes are involved, but doesn't consider Lightweaving a mixture of Transformation and Illusion. Now, I know the AA could have mistakes, but the author is familiar with Yolish Lightweaving, so it's credible on this regard as far as I'm concerned. Also: So the transformation part might be an addition to the Lightweaving, not an integrated part of it, if that makes sense.

By the end we knew there was a Transportation surge, that Elsecallers were the true masters of Shadesmar who were able to visit it, that stormlight can heal you from falling into the chasms. I though some of the spheres from the goblet Shallan knocked on the floor got to Jasnah, so she inhaled a little stormlight at the end and that was how she escaped and healed, though that wasn't it. But overall I think there was enough foreshadowing to be fairly certain Jasnah survived. edit: I have issues with Szeth's revival, not Jasnah's return, but that's probably for another topic...

Hmm, so if Windrunning is gravity and pressure, then it's not basic lashing. Does this mean Skybreakers can not fly/fall like Kaladin?

They were in the same carriage, meeting, room and so on, but Syl didn't notice Pattern. It can't be Tien, because there's WoB we haven't met another Lightweaver, so it's most likely someone from Kal's past and I agree Tarah seems plausible.