Aleksiel

The author of the AA came up with the word windrunning based on what s/he saw from Szeth. That doesn't make the word accurate as the AA is an in-world study of a worldhopper. We can trust the names of the Orders as they were probably kept accurate enough by the in-world WoR that was written 200 or so years after the day of the Recreanse, but terms such as windrunning and lightweaving might be revised in future books. It's inaccurate to name any power after an Order if two can do it and flying seems based solely on gravity (basic lashing), so I don't think calling it windrunning is the best word for it. Plus it's more like horizontal falling, but that doesn't have the same ring to it, does it? Now, if we count how Kal attracts windspren and if Sybreakers don't, then I'm ok with it. Though I'll want some sort of an explanation why windspren aren't attracted to pretty much the same thing.

Yeah, but he didn't take his men with him, because he wanted to be unnoticed. Amaram's awaiting a trial now after all. It's possible Hav stayed behind. Also, what about Taln? Is Amaram bringing him to Urithiru as well? I didn't really catch this part.

I'm inclined to believe Hav actually knows what Amaram did or at least he knows the gist of it. I mean Amaram had 19 witnesses according to Dalinar, so there are plenty of people in Amaram's camp who are aware the story of the Shards isn't completely true. Let's not forget this is the same army that sacrificed an untrained boy to gain a moment advantage. I highly doubt anyone, who's with Amaram for years is a potential Radiant.

Actually, 'has known' is present perfect, not past tense and is used for something from the past that effects the present. It's doesn't mean those people are dead. I even think if it referred to two dead Lightweavers, it would been 'knew' or 'had known'. I checked the epigraph from chapter 49 WoR you refer to: and it doesn't make me think Lightweavers see their spren in different ways. Can you explain your idea some more?

Drehy and Skar have no on-screen romance, not even an implied one. That doesn't stop me from shipping them Drehy is gay and getting a boyfriend, we know nothing about Skar's sexuality, but they were so awesome together as a team and my fan-shipping doesn't need more! In fact I have ships based on even less Alethi society is pretty different from Western society, but Moogle made a good point about the necessity of the man-woman team. However, that is for man with a certain rank and responsibilities, so I don't expect to see Vorinism treating same sex relationships the way Christianity does. I'd hazard it's acceptable for the lower classes, but I suppose anything's possible when we know so little. However, the bridgemen will get a different status as squires of a Radiant, so they'll probably get away with gay relationships even if it's against the norm. I really doubt at this point that any bridgemen will turn out to be homophobic and instead I expect them to tolerate each other regardless of any former or future circumstances. I mean, I expect them to take Moash back eventually...

I can't agree with Jasnah being a bad person, but you're entitled to your own opinion. If she's not wise, I don't know who is. She's careful about her research, the way she speaks and acts. Overall I do think she matches nicely her supposed attributes. I really see no point in discussing which morality is better than another morality, which philosophy is the best and so on. That's a personal thing. And don't forget the AA in a in-world thing that could be incorrect, so don't rely too much on it. It's been millenniums since the Heralds were around and who knows how long since the Day of Recreance Everything's myths and legends. Even the in-world WoR was written 200 years after it, so it's not completely credible. Of course you can be a Radiant without being nice. Storms, Kaladin doesn't really come off as a nice guy outside Bridge Four. However, he's the reason Relis's blade awoke and screamed, there's a WoB on this I believe, and we know Ren's blade screamed when he touched it, so it's a surgebinder's thing and I see no reason to believe Relis is currently showing any signs of attracting a spren. His blade doesn't normally scream, else he'd had been like Ren and have difficulties with his Blade.

Drehy's the name you're looking for. Personally, I'm rooting for him and Scar, they seemed perfect together in WoR!

Lightweaving isn't one of the ten surges (though I see I incorrectly called it a surge in a previous post), it's likely a sub-serge of Illumination, like Growth is a sub-surge of Progression. It's only reasonable to think one who has access to a certain surge can use its sub-surges as well. Only if Lightweaving is not part of the Illumination surge can I agree Ren won't be able to use it. Though I agree it does feel a bit odd to have two Orders who Lightweave and one Order called after it.

Lightweaving seems to be part of the Illusion surge that both Shallan and Renarin have; Brandon has said surges work essentially the same for the Orders that share them, so unless Lightweaving is a combination of Illusion and Transformation, there's no reason for Ren not to be able to Lightweave. While Pattern mentions Shallan transforming the deserters, there's not conclusive evidence Lightweaving is limited to Lightweavers Order only. The AA links it to the spiritual realm, which doesn't point towards Transformation involvement (because that's Cognitive realm, not Spiritual), but the credibility of the AA is questionable, though the author's familiarity with Yolish Lightweaving gives it some points in my book about this part. What Hoid does isn't the same as what Shallan do, yet both count as the power to Lightweave, therefor there are different kinds of Lightweaving. For now I'm inclined to believe Ren is capable of Lightweaving.

Well, if he meant Lightwear in meaning of someone who can do Lightweaving as power/surge, then there are three people with it that Kal has met: Shallan, Hoid (though Brandon might change the term he uses in the Liar to make Yolish and Rosharian Lightweaving move distinguished) and Renarin (who shares the Illusion surge with Shallan, so it's reasonable to think he's also capable of Lightweaving). So Kal having met two Lightweavers only makes sense to me if we talk about the Order. edit: both WoB are post-WoR, so we haven't met another member of the Lightweaver Order, but it's possible Kal has, thus it must be someone from his past. Tarah? I don't know why I think of her, I just suspect there'll be more of her, though I can only speculate. I doubt it's Tien, because he would have shared with Kal seeing and talking to a spren, plus he kind of counts as someone we've seen and the Lightweaver member is not someone we've met.

Cryptics were seen around Vargo as well, they are said to plan and watch. It's possible they were drawn to see what the king of one of the most powerful nations will do. Though this doesn't explain why Elhokar was able to see them, but Pattern can't hide like Syl or Wyndle, so there's that. However, Pattern was able to hide from Syl after the duel and their types do seem to dislike each other. However, Elhokar seems to be talking about more than one Cryptic and there's no reason for that if he had attracted one in particular as a proto-surgebinder unless several have been discussing who to bond him. I really don't know how it works. I'm really interested in the 'Kaladin has met two Lightweavers' info as this is the first time I read this. Wouldn't it mean Kal has already met two people that have sworn at least the first Oath or do we consider one a Lightweaver the moment a cryptic becomes interested in that person?

Shallan basically killed Pattern with her lies and only after her confession she killed her father at the end of WoK does her spren re-appear. So she's not the best example, plus from what we know she's supposed to be self-aware, which is different from being honest with everyone. Wyndle said he wouldn't have picked Lift if the Circle didn't demand so, thus she isn't a good example either. At any rate, there aren't any Radiants yet, so just because we assume all surgebinders we know of will get there, doesn't mean it'll happen. There are different types of good people. I don't know why honor is brought so often in this topic when Kaladin is the only one who's supposed to be honorable. Being honorable or honest doesn't make you good. Lying doesn't make you evil. The world is not black and white So far the only thing that seems certain is the proto-Radiant having some specific virtues and attitude that can attract a certain type of spren, then to say the Words. In my current understanding all Radiants are good in different ways; they represent different approaches towards goodness, different philosophies and morality. They aren't unprincipled, though the principles of the different Orders seem contradictional.

Quickly beating Elit, basically one-shotting him in a duel that lasts just a few minutes, also sounds humiliating to me. Then Relis would have been: 'Pick a fight with someone on your level, you cremling!' Both cases can be viewed as humiliation and mind you it's not Adolin's job to make sure Elit's feelings aren't hurt, he's old enough to look after himself. As I said, which would have better is an open discussion, but it depends on one's own views and understanding. Elit put himself in a bad situation to allow a disastrous duel continue and you blame Adolin. Relis puts Adolin in a terrible situation to let a disastrous duel continue and you blame Adolin again. He's not an innocent, but blaming it all on him is uncalled for. If Adolin should have forfeited, same goes for Elit.

I agree there's probably more to him than just being the guard everyone forgot about and surely something interesting in future books will involve him, but there are too many options like being a member of a secret society. There are so many of those, I might get suspicious of characters that don't belong to one... If he wasn't described, he probably looked like average lighteyed alethi, just like how Dalinar not commenting on Nohadon's eyes makes it reasonable to think he had lighteyes. Of course, I'm just speculating, but people tend to comment on things out of the ordinary.

Meh, Elit (is that the name of Relis's cousin? I've forgotten, sorry) could have just forfeited instead of proving he can't lend a hit on Adolin for a whole hour and was too stupid to see his own defeat. I can't feel sorry for the guy. I understand why Relis was angry with Adolin, but I don't think it was entirely justified as Elit chose to continue the duel on his own free will. Also, beating him for 5 minutes would have been humiliating if you really think about it. Which is less humiliating is entirely subjective.

You must become a Son of Honor, if you wish to progress, young Ghostblood. Come to the religious zealots, we have Heralds.

He should have maintained alethi propriety and hired an assassin, duh! It feels ironic now

Had it been Jasnah, Sadeas would have died in the first few chapters of WoR

That's alethi propriety for you - it's fine to abandon your ally so long as you don't admit it, but Almighty forbid you did something questionable in a duel. Priorities.

I think we just moved from arguing about something specific to generally discussing the 4 vs 1 duel, which may seem like going in circles. You're right, Adolin didn't act with honor, but Alethi aren't fond of honor anyway, except for Dalinar and Kaladin. But I'm pretty sure the four did break the rules as ignoring someone yielding and slamming someone's hand down when trying to forfeit are likely illegal. They didn't kill Renarin as that would have probably worked against them for two reasons: 1. They basically held Ren as hostage to make sure Adolin complied - you can't carelessly kill the reason your target obeys. 2. Killing/maiming a Shardplateless opponent, who's well-known to be sick and barely trained, in a disadvantaged duel would have probably be frowned upon. Killing Renarin risked making him or the Kholins martyrs, which would have been against the goal to humiliate and punish Adolin. But this is just my reading of why they sparing Renarin, anyone can read it as them being better than I give them credit for and only Brandon knows which is true.

I don't understand what makes Tearim a potential Herald, people forgetting about him? It's a bit odd we don't know what happened to him, but we don't know what happened to many people that have been mentioned.

Actually, better duelist didn't accept Adolin's challenge, because they did not consider him a worthy opponent at the time, so he was left fighting the less skilled and trying to pick a fight by calling people names to make them demand a duel for the insult. It's obvious that can't end well, but Adolin wasn't preying on the weaker, so he's not to blame for not fighting people on his level. While I agree starting the duel was a mistake (that the plot demanded) on Adolin's part, I don't think he fully understood their intentions, their resolve to harm even Renarin. The duel was a bit different from other duels as breaking a certain amount of Shards was no longer a reason to end the match whereas in other duels Adolin fought he needed to break three pieces of Plate to win. The terms of the disadvantaged duel were slightly different, if I recall it correctly only forfeiting or dying were the ways out. So, the judge (especially if bribed as it is heavily implied) had no grounds of stopping the duel as the terms were not met. And the terms couldn't be met because Relis and his buddies didn't let Adolin forfeit when he should have had the right to. Or the judge simply couldn't end the duel until the terms were met.

Adolin slowly beating Relis's cousin in a fair duel does not justify what Relis and his buddies tried to do. I feel you're victim blaming here, saying Adolin provoked them, so he deserved it. It would have been reasonable for Adolin to have yielded when he saw the four Shardbearers, yet as we saw neither Elhokar, nor Kaladin would have done so (Zahed didn't yell at Adolin to forfeit, instead he offered advice), which makes me think the average and acceptable mindset was to give it a shot anyway. Adolin had the right to stop the duel at any given point, yet that right was compromised - him verbally saying he yielded was ignored, his hand to signal the judge was slammed down. The moment Renarin set foot on the arena, Adolin was told his brother would be killed/crippled if Adolin tried to surrender. He was threatened into continuing. Adolin had no way of knowing that once he engaged his opponents, he would not have a way out of the duel. Adolin choosing to start the duel does not justify taking away his right to forfeit.

Well, if Relis's cousin didn't want to be humiliated for an hour, he could have forfeited. You blame Adolin for not stopping the duel against four, because it was obvious he couldn't win, but you excuse Relis's cousin for letting his lost duel continue for a whole hour? How is that Adolin's fault? He did not stop his opponent from forfeiting. On the other hand, Adolin engaged the four duelists partly because the plot demanded him to do so and it was reasonable to think he could chose to forfeit at any given moment. Adolin couldn't know he won't be allowed to yield. Don't blame him for other people's decisions. The quote you provided shows he was ready to stand two against one while the rules of the duel applied, aka him being able to surrender at any given point. Nowhere does Adolin even consider the possibility of ending up in a situation where his right to yield will be compromised. While his decision to engage his opponents wasn't thought through, it does not excuse the actions of his opponents that Adolin had no way of knowing beforehand. Yes, he knew they'd try to cripple him. He had no idea he won't be allowed to stop the duel when he had the right to do so. Adolin is the victim here, don't blame him for being set up and having his right to stop the duel taken away. @Outis: As for Radiants being good people, that is not what I meant. One does not have to be a certain kind of good, but to show some virtues. Relis fails miserably on this account.

Well, Robin Hood is generally considered the good guy, though what Lift did isn't the same. I'm not arguing her actions were good or generally acceptable. She was in a bad situation - being alone on the streets and forced to take care of herself without anyone giving her an example or support. She chose to deal with this in one of the least harmful ways by robbing rich people. No, it's not ok, I agree. However, she has some redeeming qualities though or at least left me with the impression of being a decent person, who cares deeply about some people, while unfortunately neglecting how her actions affect those she stole from. But at least Lift has some virtues... Relis on the other hand felt like a complete jerk. He took advantage of Adolin's wording and planned to cripple/kill him. While what we've seen from Jasnah leaves an option for such a thing to be acceptable for a certain order (if it was only that, I wouldn't be speaking against him becoming a Radiant), I find it very unlikely considering how Relis would have also killed Renarin - someone uninvolved in his conflict with Adolin, who wasn't a threat to Relis's plan. Killing or purposely and knowingly harming an innocent person is what I find un-Radiant here combined with Relis's lack of any on-screen virtues. He didn't get much screen time, but he seemed self entitled, arrogant and overall far from a decent person. He could change and become Radiant material, but he isn't there yet. It'll be interesting to see how the defeat and being send back home change him.