eveorjoy

Not if you are barely trained, like Tien, or stand in the way of something Amaram wants, like Kaladin's men. Edit: Sorry for the double post. I didn't know how to delete it or combine it with the post above.

Yes, you should be flexible as a leader, but there are some lines you should not cross for the greater good. Dalinar did use Sadeas bridges and bridgemen when he thought it would end the war quicker and bring the other princes together. However, He never allowed those bridgemen to run unprotected. If Amaram needed shards so badly, he could have challenged a shardbarer himself. We don't know the whole story of Amaram yet, but killing his own men to get the shards can in no way be justified.

So you prefer Amaram over Dalinar? Also, where did Amaram fail, aside from killing men who just saved him? He didn't trust his men.Had he asked Kaladin, he would have given him the shards. Yes there are times where there is no other choice, however this was not one of them. This is the very line of thinking from some of my favorite villains. Kaladin did his heroic acts in spite of what Amaram did to him, not because of what he did. Also, Kaladin would have given him the shards. I don't believe Amaram is completely evil, and he was correct that he could used the shards better than Kaladin or any of his men. However, he pursued his logical choice the worst way possible.

I agree. In fact much of how Kaladin reacts in that spoiler tells me how little he trusts anyone, including Dalinar. Of course his thoughts and actions at the end of WOK suggest the same thing. It's the reason I don't think he will tell Dalinar about Amaram's betrayal, unless they become really close. He hasn't even told Teft and that is the only person he as come close to opening up to.

I'm sure he respects his capabilities, that is the reason he let Kaladin go after Dalinar in the first place. He, however, was still annoyed that Kaladin stood above his station and ordered him to retreat. page 983 Dalinar speaking to Kaladin He resents Kaladin's actions and often other characters describe Kaladin carrying himself like a brightlord. Until he gets to know Kaladin better, he may assume Kaladin claiming he won shards is all boast. Now after he gets to know Kaladin he might believe him. But Adolin is bash and quick to judgement. I like him and his judgements are not always wrong. He had Sadeas pegged. Still, he can hold a grudge and I think it will take sometime before he trusts Kaladin.

I don't think he would ask why Kaladin was made a slave, because if he were going to ask such a personal question he would asked it before he made him Captain of his personal guard. I can see Kaladin saying to Dalinar, "I served under Amaram and I know you shouldn't trust him. He is the reason I wear these brands." But I don't see Dalinar pushing for more information than that because becoming a slave a very personal. It would be like asking someone how their parents died or what it was like to be abused as a child. You don't ask those kind of questions unless you have a close personal relationship or that information is of vital importance. The fact that Amaram killed people to steal his shards is not vitally important in the big picture. Kaladin can't prove it. Sadeas did worse and Dalinar didn't want to bring him to trial over that. It sucks, but in twisted way Amaram was right. Kaladin had no experience with the sword, nor did the men he wanted to give the shards to. Amaram can use those shard to save the world from the Voidbringers. And he knows about the voidbringers. He went about getting the shards in the most evil way possible, which I think will dam him in the end, but he did do it for what he thought was the greater good. I've considered that Dalinar might look into why Kaladin was made a slave, though I don't believe he will ask him. He and Adolin did some pretty decent detective work looking for who cut the King's strap. Perhaps Dalinar and Adolin will learn the truth without Kaladin saying a word. Will that be enough to condemn Amaram, I doubt it.

You assume Adolin would believe Kaladin. I got the impression from Dalinar's last conversation with Kaladin in WOK that Adolin is really annoyed with the new Darkeyed Captain. Dalinar might believe Kaladin, but I'm not sure Adolin would believe his story.

I agree we shouldn't hold Amaram to the standard of the Knights Radiant. Amaram maybe as honorable a man you will find among lighteyes in the Roshar's current state. Which makes Kaladin's hatred for lighteyes make sense. I wouldn't want a man who can kill so easily for what he considers the greater good as a leader. I certainly hope this isn't common among the worldleaders of our world. However, Amaram is most likely a better man than Kaladin perceives. I'm sure he is much better than Sadeas and most of the High Princes. Still the Standards of the Knights Radiant are going to become the standard to measure the heroes by as the story goes on. Amaram's way of thinking helps Odium win. Notice Kaladin became more powerful after he spoke the second ideal of the Knights Radiant. Amaram thinks his methods will save the world from the Voidbringers, but he will fail because of his methods, even if they were for the right reasons.

Yes it is a major crime, which Kaladin has no proof of. You can't accuse someone for something so serious without proof. Doing so would not only cause troubles for Kaladin, but likely Dalinar and, then by extension, the bridgemen. Dalinar is in a very shaky position. He didn't take Kaladin and his Bridgemen on just because he thought they were awesome, but because he was desperate for men he believed he could trust. Many of the other princes think Dalinar is nuts and will only believe this more as he tries to enforce the codes. We he succeed, I don't know. I think Kaladin will come to admire and trust him more and more because of what he will see. I also think Kaladin isn't going to want to burden Dalinar with a matter that is legally closed. As far as everyone believes, including members of Bridge Four, Amaram won his shards. Kaladin hasn't told anyone because I'm sure he doubts anyone would believe him. He may tell Dalinar at some point, but because there really isn't anything Dalinar can do and it might even make Kaladin look bad in Dalinar's eyes, at first he won't say anything. What good would it do for Kaladin to tell Dalinar? He can't prove what Amaram did to Dalinar, and even if Dalinar believed him there is nothing Dalinar could do to help.

Ever since Kaladin won his freedom in book one, I have fantasized about how he might get justice, or vengeance, against Amaram. Some members on other threads have suggested Dalinar will help Kaladin punish Amaram. Dalinar, if he survives long enough, will learn what happened, but when and how? Will it even be in WOR, or a later book? What do you think?

I agree and already suspect this.

Well if for Economic reasons, if they aren't going to heal wounds of injured lighteyes, they aren't going to use a soulcaster to remove healed scars from a darkeyed man captain or not. But I'm still not convinced soulcasting is used for healing. Healing the flesh of a person is very different from turning trash to metal, or cloth to stone. The human skin is a far more complex organ than I think you realize. There is another reason I doubt soulcasting can be used to heal scars, but I can't discuss it in this forum.

Then why aren't there soulcasters working in hospitals? Why aren't the soulcasters used to heal people at the camps? They will change the lighteyes dead into stone.Why not heal them when they are alive?

Why would a difficult situation arise? Because Kaladin would want to spear Amaram in the leg? I think Kaladin can control himself. Because Amaram might betray Dalinar? Based on his experience with Sadeas, Dalinar already knows that is possible, that's the reason he only trusts his men and the Bridgemen. In the end Kaladin's issues with Amaram are personal and therefore Kaladin has no obligation to tell Dalinar anything unless he asks. Maybe Dalinar or one of his sons will noticed Kaladin his really pissed off in Amaram presence and then will ask him about it. And yes Kaladin will have to explain is his issue then, but all he will need to say is, "he's the one who sold me into slavery." That explanation would be enough. Now he might tell Dalinar more but that depends on how much he trusts Dalinar when the question is asked. At the end of WOK's he is only just beginning to consider trusting him. Kaladin has a lot of issues to work through before he can ever truly trust a lighteyes and it will take a lot of trust for him to tell a story he has never told anyone yet, not even the bridgemen.

I could see him wanting to take the shards back to one of leaders of his people. However, I think Moash will most likely get them. I think the Tarah topic has been talked out. Thanks for a lively discussion.

First off Kaladin is only just beginning to consider trusting Dalinar. He is impressed, but he is also very hurt by lighteyes. Secondly, he has no proof of his story. It is the word of a former slave (Yes those brands still matter) against the word of a well respected, decorated, shardbearer. We know Amaram is a murdering hypocrite, but, in Roshar, the only living people who know what happened are Kaladin, Amaram, and the people loyal to Amaram. Third Dalinar is not in a very strong position. The other Princes like him, but they think he is nuts and their opinion will only lower as Dalinar starts trying to enforce his new rules. Kaladin is good at reading a situation when he has all the information. Dalinar has enough problems without trying to right injustices he has no proof of. Kaladin may not wish to tell him for that reason. Now if Kaladin is clearly unable to keep his cool around Amaram, Dalinar will most likely ask what's his problem. He will have to explain himself, and he might tell Dalinar part of the story, or all of it depending on how much of Kaladin's trust Dalinar has earned at that point. But unless Dalinar asks, I see no reason for Kaladin to tell him anything. Kaladin can keep his cool if he feels it is for the best. A confrontation between Amaram and Kaladin will happen, but not soon after Amaram arrives at the Shattered Plains, and likely it won't be as simple as Kaladin demanding a duel or Dalinar ordering Amaram to give Kaladin the shards. (Not that Kaladin would accept them. I see Kaladin giving the shards to Moash, for his pride, or Rock, for his people.) Then again, maybe the mystery woman, Tarah, will appear and say she saw the whole thing, proclaiming Kaladin won the shards. No they can't. Jasnah is one of the most power soulcasters in all of Roshar and she has been using her powers for years. WOK page 91 - Shallah speaking of what she thought was a fabrel at the time. So there aren't more powerful Soulcasters out there. Besides, I don't think Soulcasting's main purpose is healing. Lift can heal, but she doesn't use soulcasting to do so. And a scar is already healed. The only way to get rid of a scar is to damage the flesh again. Now perhaps an Edgedancer, like Lift, could heal his scars, but Kaladin isn't going to be meeting any Edgedancers anytime soon.

Hav was Kaladin's training sergeant. Everyone else from Kaladin's past is explained in relation to Kaladin, even if not in a flashback, except Tarah. Tarah's story has not been told yet, and Sanderson doesn't just drop random names into stories without giving a reason. The fact that so little has been said about her makes me wonder. Kaladin wouldn't be thinking much about someone he loved during WOK because he was dead inside. Remember he needed to save the bridgemen to save himself. Maybe she wasn't his wife, or even girlfriend, but it is possible.

Sure, why not. Seriously though, I doubt Chasmfiends are dead parshendi. They have killed tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of parshendi since they began the war. There aren't enough Chasmfiends to account for all the deaths. I can't wait of March 4th.

Hmm, Interesting theory, but where would the parshendi go?

That wasn't the discovery I was referring too; I merely brought that up to point out that we, the readers, learn spren are from Shadesmar, the cognitive realm, in that interlude. The discovery by a random character that has long-lasting ramifications is the discovery by Geranid that measuring spren locks them into a shape,

I think this is the important thing. From the Lift's Interlude from WOR, released by Tor, we know that Spren are from the cognitive realm. Now, jumping to a quote from another story of the Cosmere, "The Emperor's Soul" page 53: So measuring a spren defines how a spren is viewed and locks it in that form. The other two facts are interesting, but only Geranid and Ashir's discovery relates to the truths of the cosmere. Edit: To be clear, I'm not saying the important discovery is in Lift's Interlude. I brought it up to point out why Geranid and Ashir's interlude is so important.

He doesn't need to use Kaladin's parents, I think threatening the bridgemen's freedom is enough leverage.

I think Kaladin will be keeping the scars. Jasnah had trouble healing Shallan, and blood is easy to soulcast. If soulcaster could heal regular wounds, they wouldn't need surgeons. Scars are would be ever harder to get rid of because they are already healed flesh. It is possible Tarah wasn't romantic involved with Kaladin, but it is also possible that she was.

Actually, this is very likely scenario. It fits some previews of WOR out there (not ones from Steelhunt). Also, I imagine Amaram giving Kaladin some advice when he recognizes him. Amaram, or a lacky of his, will point out that Kaladin and his men are in a good place now. If Kaladin begins making claims to things he shouldn't, he could be risking the freedom and lives of a thousand men. That would be an excellent internal conflict. In fact, Kaladin might see Amaram with Dalinar and infer his situation without Amaram ever needing to say a word.

Wow we got off topic. That's fine. I still think to protect his men, Kaladin won't challenge Amaram. Sanderson is going to throw some twist in there that will be brilliant. Having Kaladin fight Amaram as soon as he sees him is too easy. He'll give it to Moash. Moash is begging for it.