Kersplattle

Well, at the risk of being a wet blanket, I think that Gaz was simply executed when whatever his crime was that led to him being blackmailed came out. I don't think he can have been sent to a bridgecrew, simply put he would be noticed as he would be known by every bridgeman. It would be too sweet a revenge for it NOT to be talked about. And he's too petty a character and person to be picked out by a spren, IMHO of course. Alethi justice can be quick and definite, he's been executed after a summary trial as part of a clean out. We haven't met the new "Bridgecrew Sargeant" however, whoever he is/was.

Thanks Moogle for those references, those were what I relied upon. In most hierachical societies with a form of feudalism (and I'd aver that Alethi culture fits that), loyalties by sub-lords to their overlord is very important. Your very status as an overlord depends on the support of your vassals, and one has (usually) extensive powers over one's vassals. Amaram was trusted by Sadeas at least to the extent that he was left with the responsibility of defending part if not all of Sadeas' territories while Sadeas himself was at the Shattered Plains. If he chose I suspect that Sadeas could significantly demote Amaram and deprive him of territory and responsibilities; although I don't know that for a fact as we just don't have that much information about how Alethia is actually run. And particularly now that Sadeas and Dalinar are in near open conflict, Amaram's position looks to me to be tricky. Loyalty is not entirely an optional matter. In terms of the story and the book, it's another source of conflict so useful for driving the narrative. I like it for the possibilities it serves. Of course YMMV depending on how you understand Alethi society works; but based on real world analogs vassalship is a serious subject and Amaram may have to chose where his loyalties lie. If he repudiates Sadeas he may be entirely deprived of any land holdings in Sadeas' territories; it would be a serious break. Maybe Dalinar would recompense him, but his ability to do so must be limited by his own vassal's holdings that he can't arbitarily deprive them of.

Hmmm, dramatic moment in the narrative. I think whether Amaram recognizes Kaladin immediately depends on Brandon's use of the drama in the narrative ! But to argue instead as if this was real (as we tend to), in logic I'd be of the camp that says that Amaram should recognize him. The gaining of the set of shards was a turning point for Amaram, and as he himself very clearly recognized he did so in the most dubious of circumstances. Dubious especially because in Alethi culture this was a hallowed tradition; everyone knows it (even the Horneaters rely on it, and they're not strictly Alethi), that if you defeat a shard-bearer you obtain his shards. Moash sets out his goals as being that too, it's ingrained. For a person like Amaram, a senior noble (just one step down from High Prince by the looks of it), with an apparently reasonably well deserved reputation for honourableness, to take a decision to illegally take the shards would be a huge step and one that would stay with him. The very way he talks about it strikes me as odd, circumlocutory, short on detail. I bet most Alethi would really like to hear of the epic battle how a full shard-bearer was defeated, and every time he gives a story Amaram knows it's false (though he probably uses the "facts" as it happened, just substituting his hand not Kaladin's for the skilful strike through the visor). Oh yes, he'll know. And it will be a huge psychological blow to him. What will he do, unless he's stupid he should recognize that he cannot bluster his way out of it; he has to come clean, and to Dalinar and Kaladin; and justify it and beg forgiveness. He's rather like "Mr T", did what he thought was right even though it is in many ways morally repugnant. But for the story, I'd bet that there's a lot more to it with conflict on many levels. If he holds out it will put Dalinar in a dreadful position; Dalinar implicitly trusts Kaladin (reasons, many and a separate thread I think) very deeply given the position he has, and if his "oldest and best friend" is in a serious confrontation (not necessarily physical at all) with Kaladin, which side does he take ? He almost cannot now disavow Kaladin, so my guess that if this happens, he has to put the hard word on Amaram, or breaks with him. Great conflict subject, how will it go ? Just on a week to find out !

Does anyone else feel that there is a potential problem with Dalinar and Amaram's particular friendship ? Amaram is a vassal of Sadeas; Sadeas and Dalinar aren't on particularly good terms now, so Amaram must be significantly conflicted. Any forces he brings will reinforce Sadeas, plus he adds a second (after now Sadeas himself) full shard-bearer to Sadeas' warcamp. In the event of any conflict between Sadeas and Dalinar, he's going to have a serious problem resolving his loyalties is he not ? And he must indeed be the subject of considerable suspicion from Sadeas as well, can't be an easy position for him.

Hmm, could Mr T be one of the "ten fools", we have WOB that he's not a herald, but it would be a B.S. move to make that distinction. Unlikely, but possible. The reference to Re Shephir watching someone die, could be a clue ? BTW, I must have missed it, can someone point out where the reference in WOK is to the "ten fools" ?

Awesome work Moogle, where do you find the time !

Witspren, I'm in no way suggesting that Shallan was the person who kept their shardblade in the physical realm after being released. I was responding to your earlier comment about shardblades automatically go "to mist" when released pointing out that although that is the default behaviour it is not the only outcome. I'm an adherent of the school of thought that believes that in the flashback scene Shallan is an innocent exposed to terrible deeds by her father; and she does not have a shardblade at that point. I will freely admit that this view is sheer opinion for the reasons I give, I await further elucidation at Brandon's convenience... I do have a sort of issue with the origins of Shallan's shardblade. If it was her family's heirloom, then it should be known about one would think, a Shardblade is only useful if used, kept secret for generations, that would seem unlikely. If given by the Ghostbloods, would they not be asking for it back, or is the threat that Nan Balat holds it all that keeps them from taking more overt action against Shallan's family so far ? That I rather doubt, he's a known (for it is obvious) cripple, or at least physically damaged in some way. So where does it come from, the most likely source seems to me to be from the man dead in that flashback, an assassin or perhaps a lover of Shallan's mother, or an unwanted "guest"; and Shallan's father first took and used the blade after killing the man and afterwards concealed his possession of it from everyone; except Shallan who had seen it. Problems with this, is that person not missed (if an assassin maybe explainable), and unless the father went back and mutilated the women's body, the use of a shardblade would be known...maybe explainable as "there was another assassin but they escaped...".

I join the group that finds it unlikely that the quote refers to a Parshendi, they aren't to my recollection ever described as "women". They are female (when in mating form) or femallen otherwise. The quote suggests that the person remains alive, so probably not soulcast, the Stoneworden surge a possibility, absorbing a corrupted spren possibly ? Maybe a decription of "Ash" doing something in a heraldish way ? More questions than answers for me.

We don't really know what Taravangian's plan is and why sees the need to destroy the leadership of all but his own nation (I note he has not attempted to do anything about Shinovar). We assume it is so he can become King himself; it is an enormous conceit to imagine that you alone are capable of uniting the nations and to kill thousands (painlessly or otherwise, recall the Shin Sailor's words !) in the pursuit of it. Also, this is a novel, it has its own morality in the novel, it is not particularly productive (just IMHO) to try to bring one's normative feelings of justice in the real world into it, although it is difficult to avoid that I agree. In the world scheme that Roshar exists and within Vorinism, the Alethi have an appointed place and that is to be the pre-eminent military fighting force in the world as they know it so they can provide the backbone of the military struggle against the desolations. That they are corrupted by the opposing forces to act in ways unbecoming is part of the plot. Dalinar though, has become moral, exceedingly so, by the standards of the society he is in. In the world as Roshar is, I suggest that Taravangian is an unwitting agent of Odium, having been corrupted by hubris to act as a spolier to the struggle to organize against the desolation. He doesn't think that himself, he does believe in what he is doing, which is also a plot device of course, but I find him repellent.

More on the Fjords, Taln is obviously tired and shagged out after a long walk ! The only reason he was standing at the gate in the first place is that he was nailed there. Listen, if I hadn't nailed him to the gate in the first place, he would have muscled up to them gates with his honourblade, and vooom ! Oh wait...

Actually Shardblades do not automatically go to mist after being released. I think it is WOB but not sure of the reference; when the King "lends" his shardplate and a shardblade to someone (for a large fee!) for a duel, the shardblade obviously cannot disappear, so there must be a mechanism to keep them in being. The reference I recall mentions that with training a shardbearer could will his shardblade to remain in the physical realm when released; it was a conscious act. But I didn't know that shardblades glowed to the extent inferred by the reference to the strongbox. Gems do, my best guess is that it is the soulcaster and its gems, and that was used to kill the man involved (hence the blood, perhaps he was soulcast at least in part to blood so enough is spilt to make a carpet change colour). That person had a shardblade that then materialized which was used by the Father to kill the woman. Shallan gains the shardblade after she kills her father at a later stage, when he is possibly torturing or otherwise abusing Nan Balat (who is unconcious so doesn't see the blade, enabling Shallan to pick it up and bond with it). I find it hard to believe that Shallan is the killer in the scene described, she is small enough to be picked up and carried by her father (so probably pre-teen and most likely around, say 6-9 years old). Sure shardblades are superlight, she could wield one, but how did she get it without first killing the original holder ? And if she did, why would she then kill her mother (if that's who the women is). And then, surely her dreadful truth would be that she killed her Mother or her parents ? Hence I think it most likely that in the scene the killer is the Father, Shallan is reacting to his deeds, and is part of the reason she later kills him. Of course so far one B.S. has proved pretty adept at "misleading" us (or rather writing scenes replete with ambiguity), so the above is a form of "rational" reasoning, and hence in no way necessarily correct for a work of fiction.

I think it highly likely that the "Thrill" is a device or tactic of Odium's to encourage killing and violence. It is used to tempt people into a love of or desire for violence and killing. I see the surge of it that Adolin feels in his duel as an attempt by Odium to pervert Dalinar's quest for unity, maybe part of the story for Adolin is his struggle to resist the thrill; Sadeas has given in to it, will Adolin also do so, a good storyline. And one with a "redemption" aspect, Adolin partially succumbs and then heroically throws it off. That Dalinar has rejected Odium in some way, it wasn't an especially concious act either, is signalled by the thrill nauseating him, therefore there is some other "power" or influence that does that is my conjecture. Is it the remants of Honour, or Cultivation, or someone/something else ? Will this extend to Adolin ? But I see that violent surge in Adolin as a ploy by Odium to subvert the attempt to organize that Dalinar is leading. So I see Sadeas as a (possibly unknowingly) agent of Odium in so far as supporting the wish to undermine the current Alethi leadership. I read the part of that chapter as though he now intends to make himself King, and perhaps to unify Alethia under him, would that then work in opposition to Odium ? Perhaps it is just that with the timing we know off, he couldn't possibly conquer and unite in time to resist so represents a disruptive factor that supports Odium. I would read Taravagnian as believing what he does, something he dreamed up when in his "super wise" state, the overall plan we don't yet know. It does involve destroying the other nations by creating chaos via the destruction of their leadership. He thinks he acts for the good of all, is it to prevent the desolation arriving in the same way that Darkness does and the Parshendi seem to, by preventing the emergence of the KR abilities and spren binding which will in some way summon the desolation ? And yet the spren see something and are spontaneously organizing to create bonds. So I see Mr T as probably an unwitting Odium assistant if he assists at all. That said, there do seem to be two contradictory efforts underway; one to avoid the desolation by preventing it coming (Darkness, Mr T ?, Parshendi) and another to prepare for it instead and to resist and win it (Dalinar, spren, Cultivation ?). This second group seems to work on the assumption that the desolation cannot be prevented, the appearance of Taln would suggest that they are now correct, but were they ? And why did the spren decide (and some months or years ago) to start to take action ? Two more weeks !

Hmm, I wonder if the "fire and smoke" is the result of Jasnah soulcasting someone into oblivion. And I agree that the broken latch is extremely "fishy", no way the captain would allow a broken latch on his cabin. So unless Jasnah has not requested that it be fixed for some reason, then it remains unfixed because the captain wishes it so. So the captain is quite possibly part of a ghostblood plot. Someone above linked that to the fact that the captain has done a lot of business in the past with Shallan's family, and her father did have contacts with the ghostbloods; that makes sense also. But Jasnah was probably forewarned by her spren, no doubt all will be revealed in March...

What if....the Shattered Palins are just that because that's where Urithiru landed ? It was a "Castle in the Sky" (Shades of Laputa, for those Myazaki fans amongst us) and connected to the Recreance or something, it "hard landed" and caused the shattering. Recall in Kaladin's storm journey, he noted that the Shattered Plains looked like something large had landed there, not able to reference my copy to get the quote, but I recall the substance (I think). Perhaps by using the Windrunner lashings the whole city was sent aloft, and it required continual support to stay there. Once the KR disbanded, without someone to keep the lashings going, it fell. Plausible maybe ?

Got it, thanks to all respondents ! Hmm a bit more meat to consider....how does one find time to do enough WORK these days.

Sorry, but where do the quotes come from in the first post ? They're not in the 5 chapters released on Tor (or not in the versions I can access), are there more out there to read ?

Thinking about named swaords; after the KR abandoned their swords, how would those who picked one up (and retained it !) know what any name given by the KR for that sword, was ? The KR didn't stick around to tell them. So any names must have been given by the post-KR holders.

Just a note re Moogle's suggested name, check on Kryten in the UK series Red Dwarf. May not be a wanted association.

I think Peter's comment is best translated as "You are very *special* people". Make your own interpretation of special...

One has to bond with a spen, well, as long as you're not Szeth ! I see your point though, we don't know for sure that Jasnah hadn't bonded sufficiently to soulcast but the implication is quite strong. Having a "wrong way" shadow is something that Aimians have, could this be related in some way ? And I haven't checked, but are there other indications in WoK where Jasnah (or Shallan) has this "shadow abnormality" ? As the prologue notes it is held to be a marker that one is cursed, not something Jasnah would find comfortable especially as a noted heretic. Khabsal would certainly have made much of it had it been noticed. Also, is the shadow abnormality something for Jasnah's order or all KR's, any idea ?

Sorry Natans, I've read the prologue and I don't see a reference to her soulcasting, except that mention of her shadow. The fact that she is unsure of it, is that what you mean ? That she would know what it meant was she further advanced into her studies that lead to her being able to soulcast ? A touch cryptic to be sure. But I could certainly accept that she developed the skills subsequent to Gavilar's death. Soulcasting must be a powerful skill, a soulcaster would make a very good assassin.

This is interesting as I find that unlike it appears most of the participants on this forum, that Brandon's other works are simply not up to scratch (note that is IMHO, like all literature, YMMV). I've read nearly his entire output now, but after starting with WoK first, the others just don't have the polish or imagination; or they're often (to me anyway) too contrived. My biggest worry is that WoK will be the high point of skill, but I have high hopes for WoR, the small releases so far appear to match the original, I especially thought that the Dalinar (Purelake) and the Rsyn interludes have that simultaneous spareness of description yet a balance to inform us of what we need to know. The WoK's is a standout and surprising different from his other works. I would echo much of the praise above, the characters, the tone of the characters especially the genuine heroicness of Dalinar and Kaladin, we all like genuinely good characters especially where they have profound weaknesses that they struggle to overcome. The world is vividly imagined and sufficiently different or non-normal to fascinate; yet it is not described in excessive detail. It fits together because BS has a backstory so everything can fit. This is often missing in fantasy books where the world is made up sort of as the writer goes along leading to discontinuities and paradoxes; and that leads to a lessening of the immersion in the fantasy. This is for example one of the strengths of LOTR as a work of fantasy, Tolkien's complete formulation of a world as recorded in the Silmarillion and other works gives a depth and integrity to that world. I find that many books have serious issues with magic as a feature, this is best described by the thought "if magic can do anything, why doesn't it do everything ?". Thus a writer needs to constrain magic quite strongly. This may not matter much in a lightweight book (Harry Potter being a classic) but can be a serious problem with "serious" fantasy. BS so far has implemented a constrained magic system which works. Too many KR's around might make it a super-hero style story if overdone, but we'll just have to trust BS's instincts here. Interesting side question, does anyone think that Jasnah could have saved her father had she been present ? Could she have soulcast Szeth or is it that when he's infused he becomes an "invested object" that she cannot soulcast, or not easily ? What would the impact of attempting to soulcast him, would her use of stormlight take away Szeth's stormlight, that is the person with the greater amount would ultimately win, or would it have no impact, the stormlight Szeth holds would just block any affect ?

Argent, yes, you're correct, Wyndle does remark upon it so it's not just her vizualizing it. However it doesn't seem to require any effort on his behalf to provide the handholds for Lift, whereas we know that Syl found it very hard to lift even a few leaves for Kaladin. So maybe she is touching him but he isn't actually supporting her but directing her friction wielding abilities. Probably not a distinction worth worrying about ! And Marianmi, that sounds like a tenable hypothesis, and I guess in time we'll find out what he actually did.

It occurred to me while reading the excerpt, that Lift doesn't *have* to climb walls using Wyndle, rather that is her way (inexperienced as she is) of visualizing or otherwise manifesting her talent with friction. Just as she can reduce friction to slide, she can increase it to grip. Thus she should be able to climb as she does by making her hands & feet have a very high friction coefficient so they don't slip. So maybe her ability to touch/use Wyndle is more apparent than real ? Though she is obviously a "talented" individual and maybe she can as well, my point is more that she shouldn't *need* to do so to climb as she does. As a second "theory", there's something happening at this time in the history of Roshar that all these prot-Radiants are being created. Unless there have always been some around with creatures like Nalan winnowing them back ? There's some possibility that a few always occur and that's what Nalan does, remove them. But there are simply too many occurring now. Can you imagine him trying to execute Jasnah, legally ? So what "force" is it producing this latest crop of potential KR's ? Simply the oncoming desolation maybe, but how does that work ?

Thanks for the direction, the mobile site doesn't have it, and neither oddly enough does the desktop site on an iPad. Had to go to the desktop and look that way. I rather suspected that, but as quite a few of my earlier "ah ha !" moments were duds, one needs to be sure.