Comatose

I'm not arguing with your 'ping' model, because that might be a good way to picture seeking, but it's important to remember that copper and bronze are internal metals, and that means it's something about the person that is being pushed or pulled, not the pulses or clouds they are putting out. I tend to think of the pushing and pulling with copper and bronze more like the pushing and pulling of pewter and tin, the other internal metals, where one pulls something inside of someone, changing them in some way that dampens allomantic pulses around them, while bronze pushes something inside of someone that makes them able to observe allomantic pulses. I asked this question in the Brandon Q&A but unfortunately, he never got to it I strongly agree with this though. If you look at the quote someone cited earlier, about listening to ripples in the fabric of creation or something, I think that could very easily apply to other instances of investiture, especially since we know seeking can also sense Feruchemy and Hemalurgy, and because Vin initially had to use bronze to sense the Well. Also, it's interesting looking at the kinds of things Bronze can tell you about an allomancer: The one I'm interested in particular is the amount of metals someone has left. I'd be interested to see how that applies to a magic system like awakening. Perhaps a seeker who trained enough could tell how much breath was being invested in something, or how much breath a person had total? Also, since we still don't know a lot about the extent of a Seeker's abilities to sense investiture (like what sensing Feruchemy or Hemalrugy would be like... do they have pulses to?) I'm not sure if we can apply the "magic has to be being used to be sensed" rule that applies to allomancy to all magic systems, though the sensing of ripples of creation quote does seem to indicate that at least something active needs to be happening.

Thanks haha! I'm in Taipei right now, so it's been interesting going through my day on my birthday while most of the people I know are a day behind.

On the topic of cost, if emotions are the "cost" for this magic system, what happens when they are used up? Does a person who uses this power become increasingly emotionless until they are unable to produce any effect at all, forcing them to wait until they can work themselves up or down again? That has interesting therapeutic implications. People who have trouble dealing with their emotions could continually use magic until they were ready to deal with their emotions, or problematically continue to avoid their emotions. Also, are people who are more emotionally-driven more powerful? That could be interesting, having the hyper-rational, detached, or logical thinkers be less powerful than passionate, impulsive, or overly dramatic people. It would also be cool to think about how emotional disorders factor into things. What happens to a bi-polar person who has this power? Back on the subject of costs, there could also be some long term effects from over-use of the magic. Perhaps long term use might result in the ability to feel anything at all, or a loss of touch from one's emotions, so that even if one is feeling happy or sad, they lack the ability to understand or comprehend their own feelings. Just some thoughts

I think it's safe to assume the title will pay off in multiple ways, as many of Brandon's titles do. Alloy of Law's main interpretation is the one put forward by Miles, in which he says something about enforcing an alloy of the law rather than the law itself, basically asserting each human's ability to choose for themselves what is right and wrong, and the ability of those with powers, like Miles and Wax, to impose, in some ways, their choices on others. It could also refer to the mixing of magic systems, and metals, that produce the extraordinary powers of Twinborn, or the combination of new and old, or urban and rural ideologies and culture. These of course, are just a few of the many interpretations of Alloy of Law's title. Another good example is the many applications of the final part of Hero of Ages, entitled "Trust". Now, not all of Brandon's titles carry so much meaning. Some, like Elantris, and The Mistborn trilogy are fairly descriptive and straight forward, but I've noticed his more recent books, The Emperor's Soul, Alloy of Law, The Way of Kings, and Warbreaker (okay, not so recent, but more recent than Elantris or the first of the Mistborn books), have been more inclined to have multiple meanings. Since Shadows of Self isn't obvious in it's descriptive elements, I think it's safe to assume it too will be invested with multiple levels of meaning. I like the electrum and gold misting connection, and the connection to what Haddek says about the Mist Spirit. I could see both of these things coming up in some way during this book, but perhaps neither will be the focus (of the two, I'd guess the mistings one is more likely to take preeminence). It could also refer to Wax and his continued struggle with his identity as both noble and lawman, an inner struggle that might be intensified as he begins to investigate his uncle's schemes. He'll likely have to ask himself what kind of lord or leader he is, and clarify what is important to him. From his brief appearance at the end of AoL, the former Lord Ladrian already seems like a character of ambiguous morality, who might be adept at forcing others to question their own morality. Another avenue the book might explore, is it might give us further info about the killer who Wax was hunting in the prologue (forget his name and don't have my book handy), who is speculated to have possibly been using atium.

I'm more interested in what the implications are that such a cluster of red stars exists, rather than their mythological implications. Red stars are usually red giants, stars whose Hydrogen cores have been used up, and are now rapidly expanding (sorry if that's a horrible way of explaining it, I've only taken a first year university Astronomy class; Astronomy buffs, feel free to correct me). This means that, somewhere in the Cosmere, there are a lot of stars clustered together, perhaps some with solar systems, that are in the process of dying, and are likely going to take any potential solar systems they might have with them. I'm not sure Taln's Scar has anything to do with Taln himself other than his name, but a bunch of stars dying within the same neighborhood of one another might be an indication of some sort of shardic interference. This is all speculation of course, but it is something I thought I'd point out. On the general theme of the topic, I've always appreciated Brandon's ability to combine a worlds 'science' and culture so that they have interactions, both literal and perceived, and that the perceptions Brandon's different cultures have of their world's sciences or magics can be both accurate and horribly wrong at the same time. The trick, I think, is finding the truth that is hidden there by looking at what cultural or pseudo-scientific camouflage is being used to hide it. Take Mistborn for example. Culturally, mistborn are viewed as killing machine assassins, especially when using atium. However, we discover later that, despite the Kandra theology that men are of ruin and kandra are of preservation, that one of the magics of man, allomancy, is linked to Preservation. The cultural perception of mistborn then becomes representative of the work Ruin has been doing in twisting his and Preservation's creations down the path towards distruction. Furthermore, while the Kandra are created through Hemalurgy, and thus scientifically more of Ruin than Preservation, culturally they are still able to be of Preservation because of their actions. Interesting to take note of.

This makes me wonder about the nature of the Dor. On Scadrial (if I am remembering correctly) Preservation is split up into a cognitive/spritual aspect (the mist spirit), and the physical manifestation of the power of Preservation, found in liquid, solid, and gaseous form in the well, lerasium, and the mists, respectively. If the Aons at the heart of Seons are splinters of the cognitive/spiritual aspects of Devotion (and a something similar is happening with the Skaze for Dominion), then what about the physical aspects of both? I think the physical aspects of both shards are what are merging to form the Dor. If you look at how the Dor is utilized, it seems to be channeled in a very similar way to how Vin absorbs the mists or the power of the well (especially in the case of AonDor and Dakhor), only with symbols being conduits of power, instead of the practitioner's body. Here's a quote from the coppermind, since I don't have my copy of Elantris with me: If we look at the Jesker perspective on the Dor, we can see how inherently physical it is. Also note how they veiew it as a sort of "overspirit" or "unseen energy" that permeates the world. Sounds very Shardic to me. Anyways, basically what I'm trying to say is that the Dor seems to be a convergence of the physical aspects of Devotion and Dominion's power (perhaps similar to what would happen if an Atium/Lerasium alloy were to be made). However, this mingled power is cut off from the spiritual and cognitive aspects of the original shards, and thus is, perhaps also cut off from it's intent? That would explain why the Dor looks to regional based magic systems to "reconnect" with its intent. With AonDor, currently the most thoroughly explained of Sel's magic systems, the Dor is given a purpose or intent by the Aons. Without the aons, it is a mindless force, incapable of doing anything, and it's desire to reconnect with an intent of some kind is what causes it to attack Raoden. Why the door was so affected by the crippling of AonDor, despite the existence of other magic systems is an interesting question, that needs pondering if this line of thought is to continue. Now, onto how this replies to religions. If we look at Shu-Korath and Shu-Dereth as being religious interpretations of each shard's intent, and Jesker, perhaps, as the following or interpretation of the Shards physical aspect, then perhaps Shu-Keseg is interested in the Shard's unification? Perhaps Shu-Keseg is what drew Odium to Sel in the first place... Also, we know that Preservation and Ruin combined to form Harmony. I'm willing to bet that the combination of Dominion and Devotion would have been Unity. Anyways, just some idle thoughts provoked by what I read here. This is a REALLY great theory, and says a lot about how the Dor works on Sel. Also I really liked your theory as well KChan, but I probably won't reply to both, since my concerns were more about the convergence of the shards, than about the regional elements of Sel's magics.

I agree with what's being said here, and that the main advantages Atium has over Electrum are the mental enhancements necessary to interpret information and the ability to see the possible futures of everything and everyone around you, rather than just of yourself. However, on reading the books, I also felt Vin and Elend's reliance on Electrum as a counter to Atium seemed a little off base. First of all, while I agree that any method of foretelling the future can provide some sort of counter to Atium, during the fight with the Inquisitor, Vin and Elend don't seem to pay any attention to the Electrum shadows they are casting. They just start burning and forget about it. If you look at how the scenes are written, they resemble a fight between two atium burners more than the fights in which one person is burning atium and using it to its full advantage. But when using Electrum against someone burning atium, you can't just forget about the shadows that are surrounding you. If you aren't paying attention to them, you'll just be falling back to your 'default' future, which means an atium burner should be able to see it. In order to change the future, you have to be able to foretell it, like in the Vin/Zane example, and in the atium fights we have seen, which means that the electrum burner would have to be paying close attention to the shadows they are casting in order for the trick to work. Now, I think the scenes in Hero of Ages still work, because none of the Inquisitors Vin and Elend find are burning Atium. Perhaps if they had felt the Inquisitors could see their every move, they would have started paying better attention to their electrum shadows in order to activate the atium-thwarting effect. I do think it is important to remember when considering how a 'regular' metal can so easily thwart a god metal, that there is more involved than just burning it. From the evidence given I think it is clear that a careful attention would also be necessary, and that moments of inattention could lead to an atium burner having the advantage (you'll remember that an atium burner, because of their ability to see all possible futures of everything around them, and the mental enhancements, would not have this problem). I think another way to pull off Vin's trick could be to use Feruchemical Zinc to tap mental speed, and analyze an atium burner's movements (as one player did in the Mistborn RP). It would be interesting to see how the Feruchemical power of zinc combines with allomantic electrum or atium. I think either could create very interesting twinborn, and that a zinc ferring/electrum misting would be the most likely combination to be close to being on par to an atium misting (though the atium mistings ability to see all possible futures would still be an advantage).

I feel like some sort of disagreement on how to proceed is the most likely. I don't think Hoid is working as indirectly as we think. He probably isn't as direct as Kelsier, but we still don't know a lot about what he's doing or why he's doing it (the Moon Sceptre anyone?) The way I see it, we know Kelsier is a meddler who can't leave things alone (hence his involvement in Hero Of Ages), and Hoid is THE Meddler. Perhaps they just agree on how and why that meddling should occur? Maybe Hoid thinks Kelsier is "dead" and should leave well enough alone, or that he is meddling with forces he cannot possibly understand, whereas Kelsier, having been deceived by Hoid is mistrustful of his motives. I mean, Hoid might say he's out for the good of everyone, but does Kelsier know that for certain, or does he have any reason to trust Hoid? Another thought came to me during this discussion. We've been assuming Hoid is alive, and yet, Kelsier can affect events despite being dead. Maybe Hoid is 'dead'? Now, Kelsier hasn't been able to manifest physically, like Hoid has repeatedly, and the way Brandon talks about it makes Hoid makes it seem like he was alive, so maybe this is just ludicrous, but it was a passing notion I thought I would share.

I really need to get the professor who does the sci-fi/fantasy course at the University of Saskatchewan to read it, because it would fit into his course perfectly. Plus, the course is science fiction heavy as is, so adding in some substantive fantasies would be good, and unlike many fantasies, Emperor's Soul is short enough to fit into a reading list easily.

Perhaps the decay only happens between the sacrifice of the victim and the placing of the spike in the 'product' (the situation Marsh describes). That would mean that once the spike has been "activated" inside someone, it would no longer decay. Interesting. @Senor Freesh: I know what blessings are and understand how stealing them works. What I'm trying to figure out is what happened during TenSoon's digestion of OreSeur before the blessings were taken. I hadn't thought of the possibility that a Koloss's spikes might be what was causing the creation of a monster wraith, and that they might be what is responsible for the transference of the koloss temperament, rather than the act of digestion. That is interesting, and makes more sense to me. So, that would mean that, in the act of digestion, TenSoon did not incorporate any aspect of OreSeur into himself, but may have in the utlization of his spikes. I'm not sure if I buy this, however, since Kandra spikes work slightly different from koloss spikes. Koloss are a combination of the four humans who have been spiked, whereas kandra are created when hemalurgy is used to bridge the disconnect in mistwraiths between their physical and cognitive aspects (or something like that). That makes sense... I think...

I and Phantom Monstrosity (if I understood him) were referring to spikes losing charge inside a non-living object, like a corpse. As far as I know, spikes in a living human or creature can last indefinitely, but Marsh mentions how spikes not placed directly from one body into another quickly lose potency. Now, since the hemalurgic piercings in Alloy of Law are apparently recycled ones, perhaps the spike never loses its charge entirely, but I'm mostly interested in the effects a functioning koloss spike would have on a monster wraith. The digestion of a koloss increasing aggression also makes me wonder about TenSoon killing OreSeur. I don't have my book with me at the moment, but I believe TenSoon, when threatening a guard or something, says he digested OreSeur and stole his blessing. If this is the case,and TenSoon wasn't bluffing, does this mean that TenSoon took some aspect of OreSeur into himself as he digested him? It's an interesting thought. Up until this point, it has seemed like kandra and mistwraiths merely appropriate nutrients and physical structures from their prey, but if there is some level of attribute acquisition as well (obviously small, since it doesn't seem noticeable except in the case of the monster wraith), that makes things a little more interesting.

Haha, I read that part like three times and still didn't read the correct thing. I was totally seeing a mistwraith digesting a kandra. Koloss makes much more sense. Still, I think it is interesting that the digestion of a koloss passes on some of the prey's behavioral characteristics to the mistwraith (not just physical ones). Makes me wonder what would happen if a kandra digested a koloss... Also, regarding the spikes, when TenSoon kills OreSeur (however that happened), he is able to take OreSeur's spikes, as they still retain a charge. If the mistwraith digested a koloss, would the spikes not keep their charge as they pass to the monsterwraith (since they are still embedded in flesh)? I guess it is also likely that the wraith wouldn't know what to do with them, and would just excrete them and then the charge would fade. Interesting to think about though. Thanks for the clarification! *Facepalm

Hey guys, I'm not sure if this is being discussed yet, or if it necessarily needs a full topic, but as someone who loves the concept of monsterwraiths, as introduced in the Crafty Games Mistborn RPG, I thought these tidbits from Inkthinker's deviant art page might bear some discussion: -Inkthinker Anyways, what do you guys think about this? First off, how would a mistwraith manage to digest a kandra? Would the kandra have to go willingly? And what would happen to the spikes? Originally, I just thought monsterwraiths were a specific breed of mistwraith, found only in outlying regions, and had no idea they could be created which adds a new dimension to how terrifying and awesome they are. I think there are some interesting implications here, but what does everyone else think. Also, props to Inkthinker for the beautiful artwork, and all the work he's done with Crafty Games.

New post on George R. R. Martin's Blog about Dangerous Women, which contains Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell. From the sounds of it, the story is novella length, which means more prose for us!

Catching up on reading. I may join in, if Chunky is approved and I have time. Glad to see there is still life here.

Elantris- Sarene/Hrathen. Yes that's two, but it's only because I love how their POVs work in unison, and the contrasting yet interwoven viewpoints they offer. I think Elantris is the book Brandon does the best with weaving seemingly disparate points of view together. Even though Sarene and Hrathen never really have a real conversation with each other, he is still able to create a relationship between them, and I think that's really neat. Warbreaker- Lightsong (Siri as a close second). Mistborn- Vin (or, if you count epigraphs, Alendi and Kwaan, love the narrative within a narrative there). WoK- Shallan or Szeth I guess. None of the point of views in this book really stood out from the rest for me, but maybe that will change with future books. Alloy of Law - Ummmmmmm.... not coming up with any at the moment, but I am looking forward to seeing more of Wax's uncle. I would have said Miles if he didn't get all preachy villain at the end.

Has anyone else seen these: http://www.americanworldpictures.com/keyart/dragonwasps_300.jpg I haven't seen the movie, or whatever it is, but I found it amusing EDIT: The trailer is also on youtube, if anyone is interested. Can't say I think it looks like anything good, but I do find it kind of funny.

I like those definitions, but then I'd say Endowment can't be spiritual, since I'd argue that animals do not have the social capability or understanding to endow, thus I'd argue either it's cognitive (since endowment, the ability to give, to see a need and fill it, I'd argue anyways, is more complex), or physical, since it involves something concrete (the endowment of something to or upon something), though the second doesn't quite fit with your definition of the physical.

I agree that thee 'good' and 'bad' designations don't quite hold up, especially when you look at what Brandon has done with the Shards. Preservation is a good example, if Preservation existed without ruin, things would never change, which would be bad, they needed each other to create. Also, if you look at them, Ruin is in some ways more honorable than preservation, though he holds a more nefarious intent. Ruin agreed to the bargain when they made humanity and held to it, Preservation is the one who broke his word and double-crossed ruin. While some shards might seem more moral than others, I do not think good and evil will be the major groupings. The realmatic groupings are interesting. Out of curiosity, why did you put Honor and Odium in cognitive? They seem more spiritual to me, but that's just a subjective value judgment.

Lightsong! How could I forget him? And Blushweaver! Ugh, too many good characters indeed!

I think it's still going now and again (says the guy who just posted after waiting an eon), but the story-line here has always seemed to move at its own pace, quickly at times, slower at others, like most RPs I've been a part of. PS: I replied to your post on MBI. Sorry for the wait, I had a wedding yesterday, and its Canadian thanksgiving, so I'm now at home with my family.

River: The more I speak to this man, the more it becomes clear to me that he is exactly the sort of person I detest, thought I suspected as much already. Where does he get his high moral standards? Who declared him a god with the power to decide who is good and evil? His convictions, so full of ignorance and arrogance continue to remind me of Arthur. I decide to myself that, when the time comes to face this fool in the ring, I will relish showing him how much his morality is worth in the real world. "I see you have made up your mind about me," I say slowly. "You priests and paladins are all the same, preaching about morality and goodness, and are so quick to label people in broad strokes of black and white. You know nothing of my past, what I've been through, or what has made me what I am. You only see someone who, in the two days you have known me, has erred in the side of caution and has been slow to trust others who come before him fully armed. You talk of good and evil, but what of redemption or forgiveness?" I swirl my wine in my glass, staring into the ruby red depths. "Since we are being honest, however, I suppose that I shall return your sentiments. There is no one less trustworthy than a man who follows his morals without question. People are predictable, but morals seem to be constantly changing. As such, I'm afraid that, until you prove me wrong, I shall be forced to trust you even less than you trust me." I flick my gaze up again, trying to catch Eerongal's eye. "However, I agree that trust is not entirely necessary in an alliance. This is a dangerous place we find ourselves in, and any ally could prove useful. If you are not opposed to working with someone you do not trust, than I suppose an uneasy alliance will have to do."