Gloom

No matter what your level of intelligence, you can't account for every variable. Kaladin is a great example of a variable that Taravangian is unlikely to have accounted for. It should also be noted that regardless of how intelligent Taravangian appears to be, or is portrayed to be he is pitting himself against a Shard. If the power of a Shard can increase his level of intelligence, couldn't a Shard also increase the intelligence of its holder? Wouldn't that intelligence be at least the equal of the intelligence of someone with such a boon? I also find it amusing that you would claim that our gift of intelligence is why our race has become successful. I would agree that our ability to reason is a large part of our success, but by itself is inadequate to explain our continued existence on such a hostile world. I believe that other attributes are equally responsible for our dominance of this world. Compassion, bravery, ruthlessness, and our capacity for self sacrifice, to name a few, played no small part in our history and the history of our race. I will agree that Taravangian is as merciful as possible to the victims he murders in cold blooded clinical detachment, but that doesn't change what he is. I will agree that Taravangian is probably trying to save the world, but that doesn't make him any less of a monster. The reality is these are all just justifications for crimes he is knowingly committing. He has been playing god for at least five years and is only now enacting his plan? Now, when the Everstorm is practically blowing down his door? Doesn't sound so smart to me. Dalinar on the other hand has only been aware of the impending catastrophe for less than a month. He is scrambling to put things together as rapidly as possible to first, save his nation, then, save his world. I'll admit that Taravangian is looking at a larger picture, but for all his intelligence, how long did it take him to fully grasp that picture and move his plans forward? It took him years. Dalinar may be fumbling a bit here and there, but he is acting with far less foreknowledge. He has no choice but to act boldly and to grab hold of whatever power he can and turn it to his advantage. Dalinar has no knowledge of Taravangians plans, or that anyone else is even contemplating the impending storm.

I find that I am suspect of almost all of Shallans memories from TWoKs. We have learned a few interesting facts about Cryptics and Shallan herself that lead me to believe that while Shallan may feel guilty about lying to others, she is a master of lying to herself. The flashbacks are I hope dependable recreations of what actually took place, and I think that as we see Shallans flashbacks, we will discover that much of what she believes about her own past are fabrications she created to maintain her own innocence and self image. I think we will see Shallan in a completely different light by the end of WoR. That being the case, I find it very very difficult to parse any real meaning out of this short flashback. I feel as if I never really met Shallan, that she is a brand new character who has up until now been playing a role so well that she convinced herself of its veracity. I think that we will see the end of the act, that she will discover a new reality. I believe that she will break out of the shell she hid herself in now that she has the power to be everything she ever wanted to be.

It seems that Roshar needs to be united in order to survive the impending Desolation. We currently have two separate individuals who are attempting to accomplish this task that we are aware of. Taravangian is the ruler of Kharbranth, a small city-state renowned for it's hospitals and the Palanaeum. He has thus far attempted to achieve the goal of unifying Roshar through assassination and through trying to interpret the future by listening to the death chants of innocent people he murders. To date he has eliminated close to twenty world leaders through assassination and murdered a large number of innocent civilians who were under his care. We have seen no indication that other plans are in motion to stabilize the nations affected as yet, though to be fair those plans have been eluded to. Taravangian appears to only be worried about eliminating any possible rival leaders thus far. Taravangian appears to be aware of the efforts of the second person attempting a unification at a smaller level and chose to order the assassination of Dalinar Kholin rather than make any effort to work with him. Dalinar Kholin is High Prince of War, uncle to King Elhokar of Alethkar. He is attempting to unify one of the most powerful nations on Roshar through politicking and an iron fist. He has prophetic dreams that appear to have been sent to him by a being he believes to be a god called Honor. Honor is dead and Dalinar is aware of this as well. Dalinar began his efforts to unite his fellow High Princes through political maneuvering and encouraging them to work together in concert against the current common foe of the Alethi people. This strategy failed dramatically at the plateau called The Tower when High Prince Sadeas deftly outmaneuvered Dalinar and stranded him along with his heir and a large portion of his men surrounded and cut off from retreat. It was only through the actions and rebellion of bridge four and it's leader Kaladin Stormblessed that Dalinar was capable of retreating and salvaging a quarter of the forces he had brought to battle. Having recognized the futility of trying to coerce his fellow High Princes to work together voluntarily, Dalinar has forcefully bent his nephew to his will with the goal of finally unifying his nation under the rule of the king. It has been postulated that the methods of these men are, for all intents and purposes, little different. That by using the war that Dalinar seeks to end as an excuse for unifying his people, Dalinar is no better than the man who murders the sickly and feeble in their beds and orders world leaders assassinated so he can unite the world under his own banner. I would postulate that the difference between these men is immense. That Dalinar seeks to unite his nation to enable its survival. He doesn't seek power for himself, but takes what power he needs to accomplish his goals. He wants to see his people become more than they are, and he wants this for his people. Taravangian on the other hand seeks to unite the world under his rule, for his own personal glory and to ensure his own survival. He has no compunction about murdering innocent people and removing any obstacle from his path. What do you think?

You do realize that you sound like your arguing that their is no difference between a soldier who fires a rocket at an enemy personnel carrier and a crazy who walks into an elementary school and murders a classroom full of children right? You're saying that you don't see the difference between a man risking his life fighting a war for his country and a man who murders sick people in their beds. You're implying that sending an assassin to kill potential rivals is the same as facing said rivals in open battle. Even the Parshendi, who are indeed facing a potential genocide, would disagree with you. We have no clear number of those Taravangian has ordered murdered in their beds. We do know that the number is substantial. We know that Taravangian has had to bring in the poor and disenfranchised to keep up with the demand of lives that he takes daily. That the city known throughout the continent as a place of healing can't find enough bodies to fill the quota Taravangian demands of them. I fail to see the similarity. The Parshendi don't go to the plateaus and sit there meekly as Dalinar cuts them down. They fight for their lives, and fight to kill the Alethi. On every plateau assault Dalinar risks his own life, and at the Tower he nearly lost it. When has Taravangian purposely placed himself at risk? This is a difference between them, but why does this really matter? It matters because the Alethi and Parshendi have declared themselves and given fair warning of their intent. The Parshendi chose the battleground, not the Alethi. This war is a war of their making, on the ground of their choosing. Each time they do battle, they risk their lives. What was Taravangian risking? Szeth didn't even know who his master was. The biggest risk Taravangian faced was Szeth himself, and he was very very careful to minimize those risks to the best of his abilities. As to Taravangian. I have seen no indication that he actually has a plan, let alone that that plan is succeeding. All I have seen Taravangian do is murder sick people for information and send his pet assassin out to kill his potential political enemies. Please feel free to give us an outline of Taravangians plan as well as how he has thus far succeeded at achieving anything other than creating chaos and spreading terror. Dalinar has made progress towards the unification of his people. He has found a way to get himself named High Prince of War, and he has come to an understanding with his nephew on how he intends to achieve his ends. He has shown his fellow High Princes exactly how trustworthy his primary political opponent is. He has also determined that he will reinstate the Knights Radiant, and unwittingly recruited to his cause the one person who is most qualified to lead them. All we have seen Taravangian do is give Szeth a new list of names.

The sphere radiates a dark light. I don't think it would make a strongbox glow. This doesn't discount the OPs post, but it is pretty safe to suggest that the sphere isn't the object that caused the safe to glow.

So did you actually read my post? I'm pretty sure that I said nothing of the kind.

So basically it seems likely that Taravangian receives a large part of his funding from the very hospitals he uses to train surgeons. Surgeons that, at least in some cases he can recruit as agents. It also seems likely that he has at least some ardents in his pocket. If I recall correctly, some of the medical staff in his hospital of death were ardents. It stands to reason that he has other ardents acting as agents. Last we have the stormwardens. We know he works with them, and can assume he has some of them reporting to him as well. This appears to be a very robust spy network. Now, Taravangian can't act on all the information gathered by this network without exposing his spies or himself. Information gathered by medical personnel would need to be verified independently in such a way as to keep suspicion off any of his surgeons because if enough surgeons got caught spying, it would point directly back at Taravangian, or at least Kharbranth, regardless of any pseudonym he may be using. Ardents and stormwardens are more expendable as long as they don't know who their true master is. This still means that he has to have independent agents, like the one that contacted Szeth who owe their loyalty directly to Taravangian. These would be his most expensive assets. Funding for this extensive network of agents likely comes primarily from donations to his hospitals and fees required for training. Seeing as most of his spies are gainfully employed, it's unlikely that many of the spies actually cost a lot to maintain on site. The primary expenses would be in placing them and equipping them with the required communication apparatus. This means that most of the spies would have to believe in what Taravangian is doing, or at least feel an obligation and a sense of loyalty to Taravangian or whatever front or pseudonym he recruited them under. His direct agents would be capable of supplying his on site personnel and removing those who fall under suspicion. They could also supply payment for services rendered and contract outside agents for risky endeavors. This doesn't mean that every stormwarden, ardent, and surgeon is a spy in Taravangians pocket. I'm certain that only a small percentage would actually be in Taravangians employ. What we should be cautious of are those who are placed close to people in power, especially the healers and the stormwardens. With the healers, we can be fairly confident who they owe their loyalty to, but from what I've seen so far, the stormwardens are a pretty mercenary bunch.

I think that eventually Dalinar could die, but I find it doubtful that he will die in WoR. Kaladin is the only option available to lead the newly formed KR since he is the only male who is even close to attaining that level of ability with surgebinding. Once he suits up and learns to fly, the kid gloves are off and he basically becomes an unstoppable Juggernaut of destruction who can simply leap away should his armor take too much damage. Jasnah could die. The wise mentor generally dies early on and while I see her as having a potentially larger role in the days to come, her loss could be dealt with. The Shallan/Adolin pairing being worked out already gives Shallan breathing room to come into her own regardless of how that relationship works out in the end. She has given Shallan direction and a goal. If Jasnahs primary purpose in the books was to get Shallan heading in the right direction, then mission accomplished, game over. Sadeas...Yes, I can see Sedeas getting killed by the end of this book. Sadeas is a impediment to the future. He is a road block that must be overcome. I can't see Sadeas getting killed until after he has been destroyed politically, but I can definitely see it happening. Amaram on the other hand, I don't see as getting killed. The only person who wants Amaram dead, other than quite a few of you, is Kaladin. Kaladin won't kill him unless provoked, and Amaram won't provoke him. I potentially see Amaram taking Sadeas position as High Prince, but this would require that Sadeas is caught plotting Elhokars death. Personally, as uncomfortable and embarrassing as Kaladins survival and success will be for Amaram, I think that he will also be secretly relieved. I think that his actions that day have probably haunted him. Skar. Skar is a name, he is barely really talked to. He is mentioned often, and we know who he is, but we don't really know him. I think he'll die in this book trying to defend Dalinar.

It's too late for a retraction now! The secret is out, Kaladin is real. Adonalsium is real, and Brandon isn't a fiction writer he's a historian. Just do us a favor and make sure you close the wormhole if any voidbringers get to close. Does this mean that Earth had a Shard? If so it must have abandoned the planet because if sure didn't splinter here.

Had Kaladin taken the Shards at this juncture instead of rejecting them, I personally feel that Amaram would not have questioned it. He would have accepted tradition and welcomed his new Shardbearer and appointed him as his personal bodyguard. To do otherwise would have been unacceptable. To double cross him after this would have been discovered and his own men would name him Shard thief. Even here, I believe Amaram is conflicted. He desperately wants to understand why a man would reject such power. He's trying to find a reason not to take the actions that have been recommended to him, and yes, set up before hand. He's looking for an excuse to spare Kaladin and Kaladin refuses to give him one. So what are Amarams choices? He could risk his reputation and claim the Shards for himself. This is a big risk. Amaram considers himself to be an honorable man. He takes pride in it. If word leaks out that he stole someones Shards and murdered his own men in the process, it would destroy his reputation and the moral of his army, an army of raw recruits who are, for the most part darkeyes. Darkeyes who believe that killing a Shardbearer will allow them to ascend to the ranks of the nobility. Furthermore, it puts his life in jeopardy. The belief of the darkeyes in their right to claim Shards won by them is a lynchpin to lighteyed control over the darkeyes. Should word of this theft move beyond his own army, and reach the Shattered Plains, it would cause serious problems and eventually be brought before the king himself. At this point the best Amaram would be able to hope for is that the Shards are stripped from him. So I don't believe that his actions were taken lightly or out of pure avarice. What about if he just allowed Kaladin to give the Shards to Koreb? Well, why not? For one thing, at best, Korebs loyalty would be to Kaladin first, at worst, Koreb could reject any authority, put on his Shards and stalk off into the countryside. We already know that Amaram can't fathom Kaladins motives for rejecting the Shards, and we already know that Kaladin refused to explain those motives. What are those motives? How is Amaram to know? Is this spearman looking to subvert not only tradition but the very foundation upon which that tradition was built? Their entire social system could be irreparably damaged should Kaladin have an agenda. How much does Amaram really remember about the situation in Hearthstone? He said he recalled the situation, but what exactly was it that he recalled? Was it that Kaladins father was subverting Roshones authority? This situation is far more complex than some people are giving it credit for. Once again, I do not condone Amarams decision. I do not excuse his decision, but I don't damnation him for it either. It was, from his perspective, an impossible set of circumstances. He even sought outside council to help him make the best decision he could for his men and his country. Then even after including more people in on the debacle, potentially placing himself at even greater risk, he still opted to claim the Shards. I will grant you, if you remove politics from the situation, and look at purely from Kaladins uncomplicated perspective, Amaram is an irredeemable murder and thief. I would like to think that given the amount of political intrigue in this one book that it might be taken into consideration in why Amaram made the decision he did. That we as readers can see more shades of gray than the immediate victim of the crime.

I'm not one to defend Amaram generally. What he did was a complete betrayal of his sworn duty. That being said, Kaladin didn't leave Amaram many options. Amaram offered Kaladin the Shards, not once, but twice. If Kaladin had offered them to Amaram, surrendered them to his liege lord in front of witnesses and sworn to relinquish all claim to them, then things may have turned out differently. Instead he tried to give them to a darkeyed spearman of unknown skill and character. This was not an acceptable option. We have to really look at what ownership of the Shards means to the owner. These are weapons of unprecedented power on Roshar. To own a full set of Shards is the equivalent of having super powers. Anyone capable of winning them from a Shardbearer deserves them, but to allow them to fall into the hands of an unknown is extremely dangerous. To have the person who won them basically say they don't want them, but will give them to an even more junior, potentially less loyal soldier is unacceptable.

There is no doubt that Taravangian has his fingers in a lot of pies. It wouldn't surprise me if he has connections, or at least informants in many of the organizations throughout the realms. It makes sense to me that he would have cooperation from the Ardentia at the least. I wouldn't be surprised if he has connections within the Ghost Bloods as well. It may even be that the Ghost Bloods are a faction of the Ardentia. It's possible that Darkness and Taravangian have come to some accord, but I think it more likely that Taravangian is working with a different Herald entirely. Darkness seems to me to be arrogant, extremely competent, and highly driven. This is not the type of person you play games with, and spying is all about manipulating people, events and information. I think Darkness would find a way to destroy Taravangian after the first time he found out his actions had been manipulated. As far as funding goes, I can almost guarantee that he gets at least some of his funding from the Ardentia itself. The sum he charged Jasnah for the use of the Palanaeum was astronomical, and she still couldn't find what she was really looking for. This leads me to suspect that she wasn't given access to any of the books that the Ardentia would deem heretical or dangerous. The only reason to withhold that knowledge from such a wealthy patron is that he was being compensated to do so. I don't believe that the Ardentia has continued to destroy or corrupt knowledge through to the present, because at some point they would have had to come to the realization that the true history was important for at least some people (them) to know. There is also those who patronize the Palanaeum. The donations required to have full access to the knowledge within is exceedingly expensive. 100 emerald broams was the price that Jasnah paid if I'm not mistaken. Considering that most of the books are cared for by Parshmen, and that most of the scribes are Ardents, the costs to run it really come down to food, water, shelter, and materials. The big expense would be his hospitals and spy networks. I can almost guarantee that he receives charitable contributions from wealthy patrons. In fact, I can almost guarantee it. The reason I say this is that a large number of highly trained medical personnel are trained in Kharbranth and sent out into the world to make their way. Many of those surgeons end up in the employ of Highlords. This is a vital service, and one that Taravangian is surely compensated for. Then there are the surgeons themselves. They pay a premium to learn their skills. It wouldn't surprise me if some of those surgeons are given a scholarship of sorts. I can think of few people more trusted than those you entrust your health, and the health of your family too. In short, Taravangian has not only found a way to have those he spies upon pay him to do so, he also has found a way to place those spies amongst them.

Yup, I've made multiple attempts to sign up myself and have consistently been incapable of accomplishing anything. Most people seem to get signed up no problem, but a few of us have had no luck at all.

Granted, only you were excluded from inclusion into the new universe. In order to maintain the balance, everyone in the original universe now gets two curses for every boon. Your second curse is that the copy of you that was supposed to be included in the new universe is in our universe instead and it's really really pissed. For my second boon, I would like everyone to interpret the rules exactly the same way as I do when I am personally involved.

Even without soulcasting, a latrine trench could be dug to drain into the chasms. With the large number of highstorms that come every year this would not be a serious issue. Even during the weeping there would be enough rainfall to continuously deplete the build up of excrement and slaves could be used to remove any blockages. Soulcasting said refuse into a usable substance should be possible, but I believe that soulcasting organic materials is limited to the more robust fabrials and surgebinders with strong stomachs.

I believe that those KR who abandoned their blades at Feverstone basically killed their spren. Those spren were by and large the spren of Windrunners and Stonewardens. Sylphrena may see the blades as both executioners and corpses. She is the only spren who has thus far shown any reaction to a Shardblade. An appeal from the Cryptics: On behalf of the free society of Cryptics, I would ask that you to cease and desist lumping all spren together based on the actions of one renegade Honorspren. Sylphrena is not even a good candidate to represent her own spren type, let alone the multitudes of other spren who exist within the cognitive realm. She is a criminal and should she approach you we would advise caution. She entered the physical realm illegally and is suspected of a multitude of other crimes. The very fact that she bonded to a dangerous renegade slave who repeatedly disregarded the wishes of his superiors should be evidence enough of her poor judgement and anti-establishment type thinking. Thank you for taking the time to read this. If you encounter Sylphrena, please contact us by thinking about it really really hard. The Board of free Cryptics.

I've yet to see Amaram claim he killed a Shardbearer. He alluded to it, and he hasn't denied it, but he hasn't claimed it. Why bother, he's wearing the Shards, it's obvious he killed the Shardbearer isn't it? Anyways, I've my doubts that branding a slave the way Kaladin was branded was strictly legal even had he been a deserter. Fortunately Amaram has his stormwardens to back him up that everything was done in the right and proper fashion.

Darkness.... I'm not sure we can say what he would or wouldn't do at this point. He seems to need a legal justification for his actions. How do you get legal justification to kill a King? Kings, especially conqueror kings like Gavilar, don't break the law, they are the law.

Right....anyways, I'm more of a mind that both genders are repressed in Roshar. It's sort of like someone decided that in order to prevent one gender from being oppressed too much, they would repress both genders to a certain degree making them inferior to each other in different aspects of life. The best example of this, in my opinion, was the book seller in Kharbranth who, even should he have the ability to read, could not operate his business without the assistance of his wife due to the social stigma that would be attached to him had he done so. In large part it appears to have been successful in Vorin Roshar. Both genders are mutually dependent upon the other to achieve success. The only place this appears to break down is in the military camps where a males success is solely dependent on his skill at arms.

Only if your a sailor.

I'm going to agree with SL_Luc here for slightly different reasons. Kaladin watched his brother slain from a relatively short distance away, then dedicated himself to his training. Kaladin is a reasonably intelligent lad, and I find it likely that he understood that even if he was a great spearman at the time Tien was still too far away for him to save him. So Kaladin spent less time, but still a sufficient amount of time training with throwing knives. Had Kaladin been as good with knives at the time of Tiens death as he was before he left Amarams army, he could have saved him by wounding or killing the man who slew Tien. I'll also throw in here that learning to throw a knife is tricky, and often imprecise. Lashing the knife may force it to hit the target, but Kaladin on more than one occasion got them with the pointy end in a lethal location. This speaks to me of lots of practice, mentioned or not. I would agree that it is possible that he was operating on low levels of SL, but I find it unlikely as his spheres weren't going dun on him all the time then.

So since a fabrial can be made to do just about anything, it may have more to do with the creation of fabrials, or part of it may have to do with the creation of fabrials, rather than the fabrials themselves being a magic system.

If you say that with a mouth full of seawater, it really does sound like Kalb.

Since the rules for this thread are: Determine the curse for the previous poster. Ask your boon. I would ask the Nightwatcher to slowly and painfully peel the flesh from the bones of anyone foolish enough to place a curse on a poster without asking a boon themselves. PS: I'm totally not looking at you DigitalBusker, honest!

Kalb, definitely Kalb!