Leuthie

An external inflaming of Passion that leads, ultimately, to a complete Void of emotion as a cure to depression? Tell me more!

Hate as a cure for depression? Tell me more!

Why do we think that every spren that was "Recreanced" spren became a shardblade and every secondary spren became shard plate?

From WOB, the only thing Taravangian did was remove the memory of the previous conversation where Wit figured out that Odium was no longer held by Rayse. He did this a bit clumsily, as Wit remembered several things that would provide evidence that memories were removed. Judging by the lack of perfect pitch at the end, Hoid was carrying just enough Breath to have perfect pitch. Brandon confirmed that TOdium didn't read any memories. So it's just an interesting exchange between two of the most powerful entities in the Cosmere, one brand new and the other very very old.

Moash/Vyre is going to pick up the shard Mercy because he used the word "mercy" on two different occasions, neither of which referred to things that would be called "mercy" by a rational person? Solid. I'm on board.

A single rock is no longer Investiture. If it is an Invested rock, the correct anti-light would annihilate that Investiture. However, anti-light would do nothing to the rock. Anti-light doesn't destroy matter or energy. It only cancels out the specific Investiture it is based on. The metal can be used as a conduit. So can air. Raysium isn't Investiture. It's Matter. Anti-light doesn't do anything with Matter. God metals have certain properties, but they aren't, themselves, Investiture. Lerasium and Atium have to be "burned" like any other Scandrian metal. The result is the same as burning a normal metal: a specific ability is unlocked and the person "burning" the metal becomes a conduit for the Investiture required.

The timeline would have to be really short: Year 1 Heralds are born Year 10 Shattering Year 12 Yolenites all moved in on Ashyn Year 20 Ashynites destroy Ashyn Year 22 Ashynites moved to Shin Year 25 Ashynites start fight with Rosharians Year 30 Honor and Heralds make Oathpact That would be a little tight. No...the Heralds were born on Ashyn (at least most of them, possible there are other sources of humans involved) but Ashyn humans came from Yolen.

To be clear, I didn't mean any of the Heralds lived on Yolen. They are ancestors of people who moved to Ashyn from Yolen. Scadrial humans were created by Ruin and Preservation based on humans from Yolen. This quote says people from Mistborn were based on people who came to Roshar. Humans from Ashyn = Humans from Yolen.

There's some reason to believe that the Ashynites (including Heralds) were from Yolen.

FYI: a splinter is simply an entity with a large amount of the Shard's power. It could be JUST the Shard's power given form, or it could be some other Shard's power corrupted by a large amount of the Shard's power. Or it could be a living thing given significant amount of a Shard's power. The Returned are considered splinters of Endowment as Divine Breaths are large enough pools of power to be considered splinters. Voluntary means Odium willingly gave his power to the entity that becomes a splinter. He wasn't forced to create the Unmade. The Unmade didn't steal his Investiture.

I've read this thread several times, but every time I see the title I can't help but see a gay pride parade with a floating platform pulled through downtown San Diego full of workform and mateform singers in speedos with a big sign that says Gay Singer Ship, Navani standing below the sign and a bunch of Windrunners flying around handing out rainbow swag.

My speculation: Adonalsium designed Roshar prior to the shattering. The Storm existed and builds and maintains the continent. If the Storm stops, the land will eventually be eroded away and Roshar will be covered by water. This wasn't for a specific purpose beyond providing a landmass and developing life The current Rosharan system was designed by Honor and Cultivation to contain Odium. After the Shattering, Honor and Cultivation moved to Roshar. Cultivation, a dragon, was happy helping her singer population and planet grow. Honor missed humans. Honor prepped Ashyn and helped humans move there. Odium, after destroying Shards on Sel and Threnody, moved into Roshar to destroy Honor and Cultivation (probably by turning them against each other). Odium tempted Ashyn humans with power. Humans destroyed their planet and Honor helped them move to Shin on Roshar. Odium pushed the humans to conquer Roshar. Odium convinced the singers toward hatred of humans and the Desolations were begun. Odium's goal was to make Cultivation's people (singers) fight against Honor's people (humans), turning Cultivation and Honor against each other. Honor and Cultivation changed the Rosharan system to make it a prison for Odium, centered on Braize. The Oathpact was part of this. Ultimately, the prison required Tanavast to die to maintain. Etc etc etc. No real support, just all sounds good to me

First they were made, then they were unmade. They are Unmade because they were something else prior to Odium...unmaking them. What Raboniel was doing to the Sibling (or something like it) was done to each of them. Odium didn't make them out of whole cloth. I contend the mindless ones are collections of lesser spren corrupted and coagulated. There are no party/revelry spren or war/violence spren around. Odium corrupted them all and piled them into singular masses that impart what they once sought. The mindful ones are greater spren, maybe even bondspren level spren that were corrupted by Odium and turned to his purpose. Sja Anat seems to deal in Identity Ba Ado Mishram seemed to deal in Connection Ra Shepnir seems like a powerful Radiant spren, seeking out what it is to be human, only horribly twisted This seems like one of those sets of mysteries that Brandon wants to hold close to the vest for the back 5. We get a little drip of info about them in each book. Oathbringer let us see a few directly. ROW let us see a process used to create (uncreate?) one.

Wit might choose some of his encounters. We aren't really sure of anything about him. However, most of his appearances have been set up by his Fortune ability. He ends up going where and when he needs to go. This encounter was either an opportunity for a bit of gloating by a ten thousand year old schemer, or something set up by his Fortune ability to accomplish something that even Wit isn't really certain of until it happens. Your assumption also necessitates the assumption that Wit would assume that Rayse just wants to show up to tell Wit that he hates him. Basically, you think that two millennia old entities who can't actually harm each other showed up in the parking lot at 3 o'clock to go "nyah nyah nana nyah" and "I hate you!". Just childish nonsense? Wit spoke of nonsense, but his self-jibes are usually misdirection. I think: Wit showed up because his Fortune told him to and because he knew Odium would seek information from him; Odium (whether Rayse or Taravangian) showed up looking for information from Wit. I don't think Wit intends much of what happens to him. I'm 100% sure he was surprised when Odium looked at his Breaths. I'm also 95% certain that the surprise and terror he felt had to do with Odium not being Rayse (and possibly not bound by something Rayse is bound by), since he had figured out that Odium was "wrong" by that time. I'm 90% certain that he knew his Breaths were messed with by Odium in the encounter afterward and was still confident that the exchange went as planned. Wit doesn't know that Odium's Vessel has changed (since Taravangian removed that knowledge), but he does know that Odium looked at and tampered with his breaths It "worked" and "went exactly as he had imagined", all while something was wrong, his perfect pitch was off, his spren was mysteriously gone, there were obvious holes in his memory, etc. Imperfect narrator and all that, he could be misdirecting us. He could be lying in his internal monologue. However, I'm speculating that he isn't. TOdium said he made a mistake by trying to get information from Wit by asking. Then he looked in Wit's breaths, removed the conversation, and probably got the information he was looking for: who Wit would choose as a champion if Wit were in Odium's position.

In the first version of the conversation, Taravangian gave away that Wit wasn't talking to Rayse. Taravangian wants everyone to believe him dead and Odium unchanged. So he removed the memory of that conversation and didn't give himself away in the second try. That's it. TOdium may have snooped at some other memories, but the major change he made was to redo the conversation. Wit knows Odium did something to him. There were too many clues shown in plain sight for him not to know (perfect pitch was gone, Design was supposed to be there but wasn't, there was no audience but he remembered one, his coin tricks weren't in the right places, etc.). However, he won't be certain that Rayse didn't do those things. So Taravangian's secret is still safe. Wit knew someone messed with his breaths, yet still concluded that everything went exactly as he expected. Taravangian believes he pulled one over on Wit and discovered secret memories. Wit believes he pulled one over on Rayse by showing him something Wit wanted to show him in his memories. Everyone leaves happy.

I've been knocking around in my head that Mishram was the third Bondsmith spren and Nightwatcher is a red herring. Nightwatcher has been described in WoB as a parallel to Stormfather, but the only detail given in that parallel deals with her being a splinter of Cultivation as Stormfather is a splinter of Honor. That doesn't mean Nightwatcher has ever been a bondsmith spren. There were only 2 Bondsmiths described in the gem archives and other sources. We know Stormfather has been a bondsmith spren before. We know the Sibling has been a bondsmith spren before. We have never seen the 3rd anywhere. Midnight Mother was captured in a gem at some point. This was most likely prior to BAM being captured, seeing as the capture of BAM led precipitously toward the Recreance. The gem archive discussions involving the capture of BAM made it sound like a radical idea. If Ra-Shepnir had been captured before, why would capturing another Unmade be considered a radical idea? And the bolded statement above: Connection powers are the domain of Honor to the point where the Fused don't believe such surges exist. If BAM was manipulating Connections, they had to have been connected (little c) to Honor in some way. Raboniel was very confident about what she was doing to the Sibling. The Sibling was also very confident about what was happening to her. This implies previous experience. So I contend that the Sibling wasn't the first bondsmith spren upon which an attempt to unmake was attempted. Ba-Ado-Mishram was once Mishram, the bondsmith spren, who was Unmade or otherwise corrupted to create Connections to Odium.

Syl is already a little piece of Honor. Picking up more would up her power potential, but the Bond would still be controlled by the limits placed on it by Ishar and Tanavast. There's a good chance that Syl has "more of Honor" than other spren already, explaining the extra power Kaladin has. But if, say, the power of Honor in Stormfather were given to Syl, Kaladin would still be a Windrunner and still have Windrunner abilities, not Bondsmith abilities. Kaladin can't be an avatar because there is no Vessel. Honor is still a splintered jumble. Most of it is "held" by Stormfather. If anything, this makes Stormfather the avatar of Honor. Narratively, it's possible for Dalinar to die and Kaladin to be "chosen" by the splinters of Honor to be the new Vessel. That assumes there's enough collected in one place for it to consider itself a single entity to be picked up by a Vessel. That might take a lot of splinter wrangling for a single book, so it probably wouldn't happen in KoW (book 5). If Cultivation is the puppet master on the "good guys" side here, there's a good chance that she is planning on putting someone in place to take up Honor in a similar way she put someone in place to take up Odium. The most likely case is one of the other two people she affected directly: Dalinar or Lift. Dalinar is the one with a bond to the largest piece of Honor, so it all depends on whether or not he lives through the Contest.

But the king is lowercase. Becoming Adonalsium is equivalent to becoming the king of Everything? Genius T had to figure out that there were Shards, and multiple Shards, and those Shards were once part of a whole, and that whole was for all intents and purposes "god". That these Shards had mortal Vessels. That he could become a mortal Vessel. That he could grab more Shards and become this "god". All in service of saving mankind on Roshar. Then he described it as being "king. Of Everything." Keep in mind, that he filled a room and everything in it with words in hundreds of languages existing and not. All to say that he needs to become god to solve the problem. So genius!

No no no no. I'm an engineer. I make no hypotheses, nor do I test them. I solve present problems, not create future ones. If my solutions work, I move on to the next problem to solve, not linger on the old one making sure my solution is the only one or the best one. Engineering is invention. Engineering uses the knowledge provided by science as a tool, but engineering isn't part of science. Science is not invention. While performing experiments to test a hypothesis might require inventive solutions, those solutions are in service of discovering knowledge. The inventions used in experimentation are often developed by engineers, who aren't scientists. And these inventions are thrown away by the scientists when they move beyond that particular endeavor. They may be picked up by others (particularly engineers) to be used for other purposes. But the goals of science are the edification of knowledge, not the creation of things. Cultivation + Honor = Growth + Purpose. Growth + Purpose = Science.

"One of them...destroy them outright before this one obtains their power." The one he's talking about is Venli. She obtained the power to bridge the Everstorm into the Physical. If the Pershendi were destroyed before Venli was given Ulim, the Everstorm would have been further delayed or stopped.

They really aren't that alike. Kelsier was born to an ostracized group, his parents were killed, he pulled his way up, then was put into slavery. He ran away from slavery and learned to be a mystical rogue. He used his abilities and connections in the underworld to help overthrow the Lord Ruler and throw the world into chaos, causing much death and destruction. His second plan to make himself a diety took hold and now, as a dead guy, is running a multi-planet underworld organization that plans several assassinations. Take the opposite of all that and you end up with Dalinar: a highborn, straight up fighter, who spent his youth conquering and became a mystical administrator in his older age. When it came time to overthrow the powers above him, he made a contract with the power in question and is planning his way to win the result, all while trying to create solid Connections among those who he may have to leave behind. Yeah. Totally the same.

There isn't a whole lot of support for anything Cultivation has done or is doing, but I believe Cultivation has a hand in everything, especially concerning spren wanting to bond again. Shallan was bonded as a child by a Cryptic. That Cryptic was killed and another came to bond Shallan. Cryptics are very much of Cultivation (they love lies, which should be mostly antithetical to Honor). Cultivation sending Cryptics to bond specific individuals? Or just Shallan? Stormfather is against bonding humans, yet Syl and other honorspren are defying him in relatively large numbers. There Nightwatcher and the Sibling are other forces equivalent to Stormfather but haven't been active on a broad scale. What other force is around that could and would encourage spren to start bonding humans again after so long? Odium is a possibility, but he didn't have any power over Roshar and its forces until the Everstorm was unleashed. Honor's power is splintered, mostly locked in the Storm, and Stormfather didn't seem to be encouraging anything. RoW gave some background as to how Odium freed his power via the Everstorm. This thing was brewing in the Cognitive realm for decades. Wouldn't Cultivation want to make sure there was some counter to it, assuming she couldn't stop it outright (or didn't want to)? All of these forces came together perfectly at the point that the Everstorm was brought in to the Physical realm including Dalinar, Szeth (who could have been encouraged to speak out about Radiants and made Truthless because of Cultivation, and was sent there by Cultivation's creation, Taravangian), Kaladin (bonded to Syl, who could have been kept asleep by Cultivation, encouraged toward Kaladin by the same...Kaladin's brother was bonding with a Cultivation-type spren at the time, as well), Eshonai (bonding a Cultivation-type spren), etc, etc etc I think there's enough here to say this whole thing was put together by two shards: Odium brought the Everstorm and Cultivation brought everything else.

Taravangian never once gave a thought to singers. You think he suddenly will now that he holds Odium? Humans are fine. The story will now switch to humans fighting against other humans on behalf of singers. And singers fighting singers and humans due to inertia and Odium's influence.

No one is confused about your arguments but you. You're talking about regulations created to protect people within organizations in our real world. If Thaidakar were screwing over the people in his own organization, the arguments would have some application. If there were a larger entity that was charged with keeping the Ghostbloods on the straight and narrow and Thaidakar was ignoring them, there would be some weight to your arguments. Since no one is accusing him of hurting his own people or ignoring far reaching regulatory requirements, there is no real relevance to your arguments. We're talking about Thaidakar's personal ethics and his ability to apply those ethics across a multi planetary and multi realm organization. The only disagreement is with his ability to apply his own ethics to his team. Even that disagreement is one of semantics now. We all agree that he's not the most solid ethical person. We all also agree that he is a poor administrator, anyway, so even if he had the ethics to avoid random killing and he saw such ethics as more important than the results he's seeking, he'd be unable to keep his charges from killing people. So what the hell are your arguments supposed to be convincing people of, anyway? That real world Thaidakar (CEO) should be held accountable for someone working for Mraize (local General Manager) possibly killing someone? Who cares?

The Surge of Transformation deals with Identity. You take a stick and try to convince it to be a fire. You use Investiture to do the convincing. The bigger the change in Identity, the more Investiture it takes. Unmaking the Sibling was taking a lot of Voidlight, using the foreign Investiture to "convince" the Sibling to change Identity to one more Connected to Odium. Sja Anat seems to be the corrupted "goddess" of Identity.