Soccorro

I also didn’t like Hoid chapter. I was shocked when I read the end of Dalinar v Taravangian confrontation because Dalinar’s actions were nonsensical and then I got Hoid chapter where BS spoon feeds Dalinar’s so-called genius plan to readers through Hoid and tries to convince me that it was right decision to make. When the plan is impossible to understand without author’s far fetched explanation I don’t know what to say

I don’t think it can be sapient because Odium explained that he can’t create life. Walmart Dalinar became sapient because Dalinar himself brought it to life via some Bondsmith shenanigans with Connection

No, it was stated that Adolin’s actions do require punishment, that’s the problem. Kholins spent the whole entity of book 2 to find the way to deal with Sadeas “legally”. I don’t think hiring assassin who would do what Adolin did is a problem for Kholin house. Dalinar could kill Sadeas any moment he wanted, but he wanted to do it “right” and he knew that murder would turn Sadeas house against him (exactly what happened in book 3). It was also stated that by Alethi’s law killing a high prince = killing a king and punishment is either execution or exile. It was such a huge problem in book 2 but it disappeared in book 3 completely. It’s also weird that Dalinar’s and Jasnah’s actions from book 1 came back to bite them in the ass in book 5, Jasnah’s “lesson” during debates and Dalinar beating Elhokar. Was beating Elhokar right? Yes, it needed to be done because Elhokar was ruining everything and people of Roshar suffered because of it. Was it less dark than Sadeas murder? Also yes. And yet Dalinar’s suffers consequences while Adolin doesn’t.

Readers know it but in-world characters might not be so kind. In-world characters should be pissed and it would make sense But I really think BS will ignore all of it. He isn’t very good at writing characters who suffer consequences of their actions and everything is always swept under the rug. No one cares that Adolin killed Sadeas. No one cares that Kaladin killed Shallan’s brother. No one cares that Kaladin wanted to help Moash to assassinate Elhokar. No one cares that Navani helped their enemy

I think they’re talking about consequences for Adolin. He didn’t suffer any. He didn’t even felt bad about it and you are right all this people were killed because of him. While there’re some external consequences Adolin himself never suffers consequences of his choices. He also has the thickest plot armour in the series. Each book has a situation when he’s in mortal danger and each time something or someone arrives to save his ass in the last moment

Thanks! Thanks for lengthy response, I think it makes sense

Which series would you recommend? I read Warbreaker and Mistborn and liked the first series about Vin and Elend but couldn’t get into Part 2 where main cast changes after big time skip.

Adolin on 2 peg legs, without both arms, wielding broken sword in his teeth will easily defeat The Blackthorn

Way of Kings and Words of Radiance are my favorite books of all time. They made me love fantasy again. I was absolutely blown away. Unique world, interesting magic system, Radiant Orders and their Oaths. Shattered Plains setting was amazing. Great character study for Kaladin and Dalinar. And then the magic was gone. Oathbringer still has glimpses of it, it feels like a bridge between “old Sanderson” and “new Sanderson” but Rhythm of War and now Wind and Truth feel like completely different series. But the most interesting part is that I can’t properly explain why. What happen? What’s so special about first 2 books? I feel that something is off but can’t point out what exactly. Of course, I can figure out specific parts I dislike but I can’t explain the feeling that Magic was gone. A lot of people also say that WoK and WoR are the best. Maybe someone can explain what’s their secret sauce?

What did they say? I think they’re beta readers and I read one of them on fantasy subreddit and they said BS didn’t listen to their feedback at all so they probably don’t have any influence

The biggest fumble is that BS knew this is the last time we ever see Dalinar and still wasted him for spiritual realm exposition dump. Every character who was participating in SR plot was wasted but Shallan at least will have 5 more books while Dalinar spent his last book as a plot device. None of his chapters are about him. It’s funny how BS gave up eventually and started to write visions that Dalinar’s saw from Honor’s perspective which is right because Dalinar as a person has no development anyway. His big moment for supposed to be "giving up Honor's power" but this is exactly what he planned to do in the beginning of the book! He literally told Navani in the very first chapters that he doesn't want this power and seeks Honor only to beat Odium's champ and then he plans to let Honor's power go or find another vessel for it. It's not that Dalinar went on a journey, leared something new about himself, and eventually made a Choice that pre-character development Dalinar would never make. But no, he did exactly what he wanted to do since the beginning.

Reading his answers makes me wonder what that blackthorn nonsense really is and why Odium’s cannot summon an army of blackthorns, heralds, ancient radiants, etc from SP. BS opened Pandora’s box, there’s no rules anymore, anything can happen via SP shenanigans

Well, Nohadon provided information that Dalinar couldn’t know so he can’t be just Dalinar’s imagination

I posted this in megathread already, I think BS completely rewrote the end of Dalinar/Honor/Odium plot because old vision of Honor didn't fit in "progressed themes of the plot" anymore + some fan pandering since a lot of people complained about Dalinar being a bad person that needs to die, so BS decided to get rid of problematic character "I will say, oftentimes, I was actually talking about this to some people in the line just recently, characters will reach a point of decision. And at that point the outline usually will say "have them do this." But I will have written them for months at that point to be who they are at that point and I give them the opportunity to make different decisions. And someone at the end of Wind and Truth made the opposite decision. It's not magical where I'm like "oh the character is alive", no, it's just that who I wrote them to be and how the themes of the plot progressed I realized that at that point they can't make this decision. And so I rewrote their part and revised it to have the opposite decision get made. Once Wind and Truth is out I can tell you what that is. But you will have to read it and see if you can guess who, in the outline, was making a very different decision." https://wob.coppermind.net/events/538/#e16658

And don't forget the fact that Odium's so-called genius plan was possible only because dumb Cultivation told Dalinar to go into spiritual realm and Gavinor accidently ended up there

And then T finds Dalinar 2.0 on the next page

Oof. That’s a bit harsh. Twilight exists, you know. I just realised that Shallan and Adolin are separated since Oathbringer. So, since they became a married couple. They share an arc in book 4, but barely interact. Shallan was doing her own thing and Adolin was doing his own thing. They’re not together again in this book and they end the book separated again. We didn’t see much of them together, we just read their thoughts about the time they spent together offscreen. I guess, if they weren’t a couple, not that much would have changed about the plot and their individual arcs.

Kaladin and the Heralds will return in the end of book 7. Books 8 and 9 have Heralds flashbacks and I think Heralds will get a bigger role in present day narrative. I hope books 6 and 7 are more like WoK and WoR. Smaller in scope, focused of character study of 2-3 characters, characters have individual chapters instead of multi character povs. I missed old book structure in WaT

Reddit, of course. Every opinion apart from “this is the best thing ever” is downvoted into oblivion and I saw a few people reporting that they received threats for criticising the book

But he will come back and get his physical body back eventually The big problem with Dalinar's arc is that it will get a satisfying payoff only when Brandon Sanderson writes books 6-10 and Dalinar's grand plan comes to fruition. So in 20-30 years. As of now, it’s “I screwed up planet’s eco system and knight radiants! Anyway. That’s problem for next generations. My job here is done, time to rest”. Taravangian even got his own pet Blackthorn anyway. It cheapened Dalinar’s sacrifice IMO he should remain a child to provide…innocence vibe? Idk why Brandon made him older, if child would work exactly the same. For future romance with Lift? True Dalinar met this Blackthorn in SP earlier, I believe. I think real Dalinar died and went to beyond. As for Blackthorn, I don’t understand what it is. He will either serve as evil Odium’s puppet or will have character development and will become more like old Dalinar. This shadow is like young Dalinar because people of Roshar including his sons hate him, right? What if after the time skip people will view Dalinar differently, as someone who sacrificed his life for them and wrote Oathbringer. Will Cognitive Shadow change too? I don’t know how to combine 2 replies into 1!

The book is too big, there's no place for it. Iirc they also cut some interludes.

RoW - yes, OB has more definitive ending than this book, in my opinion With this logic, you can excuse absolutely everything BS writes. Plot doesn’t matter, pacing doesn’t matter, character arcs don’t matter, nothing does matter, reducing this great writing to plot points is a disservice to “journey before destination”. Very convenient, I’d say

Well, it didn't stop Brandon from breaking this rule billions of time before. RoW in particular suffers a lot from exposition info dump. Sanderson just hides the information when it's needed to push the story forward even if it makes little sense for the characters to hide this information from each other. Here's the problem. Endgame was out next year after Infinity War. Book 6 is currently scheduled for 2031 and it always take BS more time to write the book that he initially planned. If he knew that he's taking such a long break from the series, why did he choose to left so many plot lines and important characters fates like Shallan and Navani in limbo? Ofc when books 6-10 will be out it will make sense (probably) but as of current...Dalinar will remain a fool who destroyed Roshar for 10 years at least hehe)

“someone at the end of Wind and Truth made the opposite decision. It's not magical where I'm like "oh the character is alive", no, it's just that who I wrote them to be and how the themes of the plot progressed I realized that at that point they can't make this decision. And so I rewrote their part and revised it to have the opposite decision get made. Once Wind and Truth is out I can tell you what that is. But you will have to read it and see if you can guess who, in the outline, was making a very different decision.” I think in the original version of the book Dalinar ended up being Honor, but then Brandon decided to kill him off and write HoA rip-off instead. Just my theory, but I can’t imagine anyone else who could make a different decision.

Good: Kaladin. I loved more optimistic Kaladin, his next ideal and his ending. Honor-spear??? Szeth’s flashbacks are big improvement since last book. Adolin and Maya. Some of the best action scenes Brandon ever wrote. No Syladin Bad: Everything about Dalinar. Gavinor was, in my opinion, stupid. I understand that any book is reflection of author’s world view and “killing one to save many isn’t worth it” theme was there since book 1, but…killing Gavinor was right. I’m sorry. I understand what Brandon tried to show, but really? The fate of many planets and so many lives aren’t the priority? Dalinar died…for this? He was sidelined in RoW for this? Didn’t even reach next ideal. Dalinar’s character is pure disappointment and it hurts to think about amazing character conclusions other characters got while Dalinar fans pulled the short straw. Again. Should’ve died in Oathbringer instead. Ending is too much like Hero of Ages. The more you dive into cosmere the less original it feels like. Moash. Ugh Overall 6-7/10 book for me. Rhythm of War was more boring, but individual arcs were very solid. This book is very fast past and dynamic, but some things about characters disappointed me.