in Truth,watcher of tv

@Hare_Mettle I really like the idea as well, that the Shardplate does different things for each Order, it's just even more flavour. A technical quibble though, if you were listing the Orders with their core value the Elsecallers would be self-actualisation and the Lightweavers more like self-knowledge. IMHO some of your suggestions seem more like general abilities than things related to the Shardplate (such as the Elsecallers being in both Realms); so maybe the Radiant can do that but the Shardplate can do something else? Also I think BrandySandy avoids mind-reading in the Cosmere, as far as I know there is only one instance of it and that is a single Shard that has to go to some lengths to make it happen. I like the idea you have for the Stonewards, puppeting their Plate could possibly relate to Tension, although I could also see it being the Dustbringer ability; flamespren (assuming that's their platespren) can already do a very similar thing in conjoiner fabrials: sympathetic motion (Abrasion) at a distance (Division). It could work with the idea of obedience and self-mastery, if you are controlling two of yourself. Edgedancers having a healing medivac suit is great, but maybe the mechanics of transferring it are different from the Windrunners. With the Surges being what they are, maybe Windrunners can send their Plate at a distance but only to people 'under their protection/leadership', while Edgedancers can pass it to anyone but only up close? My suggestion for the Lightweavers is along the same lines as yours; since they have Transformation and creationspren shapeshift all the time, maybe Lightweaver Plate is much more alterable like a Shardblade. They could shrink it down to be skin-tight so it fits under an illusion and texture it to match an illusion. It didn't really provide her life-support in that battle though, she had to break for refreshments and all it could do was open/close vents. I'm pretty sure Shardplate can't exist in Shadesmar anyway, dead Plate certainly can't go, and Shallan earned hers there but all she got was got was swarmed by creationspren, I'm not sure she even knows she has it. But maybe the Elsecallers Plate ability is that it can manifest in Shadesmar; it fits with Transportation and the inkspren appearing almost identical in each realm, its also the greatest benefit for an Order that spends half the time in Shadesmar and wants to be careful. Plus, they could use it as a diving suit in the bead seas.

I completely agree with you. All through the books Dalinar’s been trying out different political positions to get the job done, and now Navani has basically taken his place as monarch of Urithiru. Bondsmiths are also described as guiding priests, distinct from kingship. It’s probably also too much power for one person to have, being a king and a Bondsmith.

Yeah, I was thinking it could be something about responsibility for Willshapers; Making your own decisions means dealing with the consequences. That’s a good one, although I’m personally assigning that as the third Ideal so I can keep my own suggestion head-canonical

Everyone’s trying to figure out the Fifth Ideals for our main characters, but we’re flying blind until we see a couple in the books. We already know 2 (or 3 if you count Lightweavers) of the Fourth Ideals, so we have a frame of understanding there. For the Windrunners it holds them back from being overprotective, and the Skybreaker’s Crusade is, I think, about the complex reality of enforcing/changing the law and the dangers of being personally involved. Even Shallan’s Ideal was her greatest crime/mistake. If we assume the Fourth Ideal usually acts as a check on the shortcomings/worst tendencies of the Order, I wanted to hear peoples thoughts for the ones we haven’t seen yet. To get it started; I reckon the problem with the Elsecaller’s is that they’d be too self-centred and individualistic, so their Ideal would be to help others, possible to help them achieve their own potentials. Another thought is if the Stonewards are meant to be stoic and helpful, their Fourth would be about taking care of themselves. You can’t be there for someone if you’re dead.

Yeah that’s what I’m saying, they don’t so much use the Surges as live them. Also, with creatures of thought, what is the difference between conceptual and literal?? Oops got my wires crossed, thanks for catching that

I’ve noticed the relationship between the Radiant spren and their Surges too, although I agree with @cometaryorbit that it’s not a set pattern and they can’t necessarily Surgebind like their Radiants. It seems to me to be mostly in their appearance and actions. Honourspren take the appearance of air related things (adhesion) and fly around, sometimes walking at odd angles (gravity). There’s also the natural gravity weirdness of Lasting Integrity. Highspren look like a tear (division) in reality, they float around and look like a starry night sky (gravity). Ashspren seem to burn through things (combo of division and abrasion). Cultivationspren look like vines and crystals (progression), they move around by growing (progression) and slithering (abrasion). Mistspren look like reflected light (illumination) and sometimes seem to grow ethereal plant (progression). Cryptics appear as raised image on a surface (illumination, they bend the light), they also can change into a 3d form (transform). Inkspren appear exactly as they do in Shadesmar (transport), but can change size (transform). Lightspren are obviously an odd one but I’m pretty sure we’ve only seen them from the pov of singers so that could change things. They do seem to pulse to the rhythms (transport?) and since they are lightspren they might be appearing as a complete lack of substance (cohesion). Peakspren look like and meld into stone (cohesion). We still don’t know much about tension though.

Well, I think they still invaded, it was probably just more two-sided than a simple story of human greed/imperialism. We also need to keep in mind the listener’s knowledge is based off ancient propaganda of an even more ancient event. That said I agree the humans basically took the singers place in the spren relationship, intentionally or not.

I think the issue with a few of your points is that the gems are Rosharan matter, and so will be humming the Rosharan tunes. The point of putting the Light in a vacuum was to separate it from anything Rosharan. When it comes to if Stormlight could be converted to anti-voidlight, I think that’s a detail yet to be explained, the next book will probably settle some questions like that. My guess is the Light still remembers what it’s supposed to be, and won’t just become a random Light when it exits the vacuum. As for Dalinar producing Stormlight; he’s opening Honour’s Perpendicularity, so the Light would be Storm flavoured on the way through.

What a wild and wonderful theory! If I can add my thoughts to the pile: The Wall could represent the Misted Mountains that separate Shinovar from the rest of Roshar and block the highstorms. The Girl climbing the Wall would be her trekking through the mountain range. I get the sense that the Betrayal (or whatever we’re calling it) was more complex than has been revealed. From Leshwi’s reaction to Timbre it would seem she thinks the burden of guilt is on the Singers. Honour seems to have sided with the humans, and I would think Honour of all beings wouldn’t have sided with the people that broke an agreement. I think whoever the Girl/Tsa represents exploited a loophole or pushed the terms of the refugee deal enough that it provoked the singers (undoubtedly with Odium’s urging) to fully break the agreement, beginning the Desolations. Assuming the moons represent the Shards in some way, Mishim would be Cultivation, so Tsa in the story would be swapping places with Cultivation or a spren particular to her (like the Nightwatcher?). I wouldn’t put it past either of them as something they would want to re/experience. Further, this would mean according to the story Tsa had a child with Honour (or the Stormfather)! As people have mentioned above, the story of Queen Tsa is a Natanese(?) story to explain their blue skin, B.S. has said they are blue from Siah Aimian ancestry; so perhaps the Siah are descendants of the Girl/Tsa and Tanavast! If we assume the Girl/Tsa is a female herald; perhaps it could be Vedel who, as the Edgedancer herald, is associated with white as well as Cultivation.

I haven’t seen anyone voice this theory before, though some have come close. I’m keen to test it out in the court of fandom opinion. Rip into it, please. So we know from B.S. that the Knight Radiant orders use their Surges differently but we’re largely in the dark on how. It’s probably in part the resonance/mixing of the two Surges but also, I think, each order focuses on either the Physical or Cognitive aspect of a Surge. Specifically, they focus on the Physical aspects of their anticlockwise Surge (on the Surgebinding table) and the Cognitive aspects of their clockwise Surge. Explanation First I should establish what I think Physical v Cognitive Surges look like. Physical are the classic abilities the Radiants have; flying, illusions, disintegration. They are more literal and tangible. Cognitive abilities are more subtle and often figurative/abstract interpretations of the Surge. Being cognitive they mostly effect peoples thoughts and actions, I think the virtues associated with each order are mostly based on Cognitive Surges. For instance, Gravity’s Physical aspect can be the force holding things to the planet while it’s Cognitive aspect can be a person’s gravitas and charisma. Apparently Radiants usually pick up their anti-clockwise Surge first, and we’ve seen that they can struggle with their clock-wise Surge (especially relative to the order they share it with); Shallan basically gave up on Soulcasting, the Windrunners almost never use a basic lashing on other things, Venli’s stoneshaping experiences were awkward iirc. I think makes sense if the anti-clockwise Surge is their Physical Surge with more obvious and literal applications and for the clockwise one they have more subtle mental powers. When I thought of the Orders in this light many of the names and roles made a lot more sense. The whole theme of Roshar seems to be about bridging the Cognitive and Physical Realms, so it stands to reason the major magic system would straddle the divide. I’m not saying a Radiant has access to only the Physical or Cognitive application of a Surge, but it’s a focus; they major in one and minor in the other. Internal/external might comes into play with internal (personal) effects being lesser applications of the Surge they can access regardless of focus, and the external effects being greater abilities generally difficult for them if it’s not their focus. For example flying would be an internal use of Physical Gravitation, while launching objects and people would be an external use of the same. Applied theory I’d just like to mention, some of the WoR excerpts in WoR seem to be there specifically to mention the Cognitive abilities of an order. Windrunner- -Physical Adhesion: glue and wind -Cognitive Gravitation: charisma, leadership, gravitas, and general showboatiness (looking at you Kaladin) Skybreaker- -P. Gravitation: I imagine they’ll be throwing things around more? Maybe floating some perps? Haven’t seen much from them yet. -C. Division: possibly the impartiality needed for justice, also “separating the innocent from the guilty” Dustbringer- -P. Division: decay and burn -C. Abrasion: friction allows things to be held and move together, self-mastery is them getting a hold of themselves and “obedience” is sticking to another Edgedancer- -P. Abrasion: slicking and potentially something more destructive (after all it’s specifically abrasion instead of friction) -C. Progression: they take care of people to heal and nurture them mentally, described as “refined and eloquent” (inner growth), healing is a fairly Cognitive power Truthwatcher- -P. Progression: plant growth at least (they are heavily associated with plants), probably healing -C. Illumination: truth and watching, Illumination seems to be about reality perception and memory Lightweaver- -P. Illumination: illusions, obvi -C. Transformation: inspiring people to be different (Pattern even explicitly points this out), temporarily becoming a new person Elsecaller- -P. Transformation: soulcasting -C. Transportation: because this Surge bridges Physical and Cognitive I think the C. use is going to Shadesmar, also probably cerebral powers? Willshaper- -P. Transportation: going from Shadesmar, perhaps manifesting Cognitive things (fabrials?), maybe even teleportation? -C. Cohesion: shaping of will, helping communities work together, solid resolve, also might be why Venli’s first stoneshaping was so spreny Stoneward- -P. Cohesion: stoneshaping -C. Tension: stubbornness/dependability (stiff), resourceful (flexible) Bondsmiths are obviously exceptional, in their case I think their Surges are shifted or expanded towards the Spiritual. So Spiritual Adhesion creates Connections, and Tension tightens or slackens Connections or at least associations. GAHH! This turned into an essay, sorry. Any thoughts? Counter-theories? tldr: maybe Willshapers can teleport??

So, hi I’ve been reading the Cosmere books for a few years since a friend turned me on to them. And I love them, obviously. My favourite setting is the Stormlight Archive; I appreciate the unique setting, moral complexity, and the magic system based on being a positive member of society. I’ve come up with too many fan theories that I’ve finally broke and decided to end my lurker-ship.