in Truth,watcher of tv

I’ve always been an advocate for: Starspren for Skybreakers (1 spren per radiant) Musicspren for Willshapers Mandras/luckspren for Truthwatchers Stonespren or potentially some sort of ice spren for Stonewards Its also possible that the Bondsmith’s each get a different spren, in which case I think riverspren will come in.

Well yeah; it’s not Surgebinding, it’s not Voidbinding, it’s Odium’s own. He’s part of Roshar now so he wouldn’t be hacking the natural system, he gets his own part of it (although most of the other stuff is hacks). I would call it an Invested Art because they get active magical powers, unlike normal forms. As for the abilities: language comprehension is a pretty generic cosmere magic, and futuresight seems to be very common for Odium magic, Voidbinding or not. Anyway, back on topic, I think now that warlight’s a thing, Honour’s splintered and Odium’s under new management, the Investitures will start to blend more and we’ll see more mixed spren, at some point.

Yes, nail on the head, this is most of my reasoning for that, I was just trying to keep the post brief. One thing though; Elsecallers are “Careful” as in precise or cautious, not “Care” as in empathy. Thanks for liking the theory

I always figured Adolin was just slowly replacing the bond that was broken. Maya isn't whole enough to grant any magic, but Adolin bonding with her is gradually undoing some of the damage. Ooo, is this a different theory poking through? Yeah, that's why I expressed uncertainty. The question is if the Unmade were fully converted to Odium or not. I figure voidspren grant pure Odium magic instead, the forms of power don't really have any relation to the Surges but are Rosharan magic. Although, we haven't seen the sapient voidspren bond, I'd like to see that.

First off, part of this theory requires another little theory to explain it. I think the primary divine attributes in the Vorin Essences table indicate what the relevant spren look for, and cultivate, in candidates for their Order: protective people for Windrunners, empathetic people for Edgedancers. The secondary attribute, on the other hand, is the spren's contribution to the Order, which the Radiant gains greater mastery of as they bond with their spren and become more like them: Windrunners pick up leadership skills, Edgedancers learn how to heal (probably in a more Cognitive sense in this case). So, my main theory, is that at each Ideal a Radiant Connects with a different aspect of their spren and this bond strengthens through subsequent Ideals, sort of like a reverse of the Heightenings. What they Connect to defines the pattern of the Ideals (not the content though) and what abilities they gain through control and understanding of that aspect. First Ideal: This Ideal is the same for all Orders because they Connect to the same thing, their spren's sprenhood for want of a better word. It's the spren's alignment to Honour and Cultivation, and access to Surges. This is what lets them take stormlight into their body and use it for Surges; as the bond strengthens they can hold it longer and use it more efficiently. Second Ideal: I'm least clear on this one but I think this might be where the Radiant Connects with the primary motivation or perhaps secondary concept of the spren, which translates to the secondary divine attribute of the Order. That's why the Second Ideal is almost always a commitment to the general purpose of the Order. As this bond progresses, they express the attribute more strongly, such as Windrunners gaining the ability to command more and more people. Not sure if their is any specific ability gained at this level, perhaps the Surges get a major boost. Third Ideal: At this level the Radiant Connects with the core concept of their spren when they swear an Ideal that gives them a deeper commitment and understanding of their purpose. They can now pull their spren fully into the Physical Realm as a Shardblade and they effectively count as their spren, allowing them to take on others as Squires. Fourth Ideal: The Radiant now Connects to things beyond their spren; to simpler, more tangible forms of the Radiant spren's concept in the form of the cousin spren. They gain an understanding and control of the lesser spren and their concept, as well as a specific group that they can pull into Shardplate. Their Ideal also becomes about broader, real-world applications of their purpose, which naturally involves complexity and limitations. Fifth Ideal: This is obviously speculative, but I think at this level the things being Connected to have been getting broader and broader, so, what's bigger than the wind? The Highstorm. What's bigger than logic? Cognition (Shadesmar). The Surges are meant to be fundamental forces, so they must combine to form identifiable things. The pairing of the Surges have been said to be natural so there must be pre-existing examples of these pairs. Therefore, I think major aspects of Roshar are inherently linked to the Surge pairs and the Knights Radiant Connect to them at the highest Ideal, gaining some level of oneness with them. I have no idea what this would mean for their last oath. Share your thoughts and criticisms, please.

That certainly seems to explain the parallel drawn to the Old Magic if the spren is holding a significant amount of the power, and it fits with Odium’s Intent being unwilling to share or give freely. Although it’s unrelated, it sounds a bit like a supercharged aviar bond. My impression was that; since it’s called Voidbinding, the chart is full of symmetry, and it has almost all the same links/pairings as Surgebinding, it is a mix of Odium and Honour (possibly Cultivation as well). This could mean the Unmade and voidspren aren’t the direct sources since they are just Odium (although I’m not entirely certain about the Unmade in this regard). One thing I’ve noticed is that Odium’s magic often seems to involve granting knowledge/understanding: nightform and alt-Truthwatcher granting futuresight, envoyform granting language, Moelach granting insight from other times, Sja-anat “enlightening”, the Fused having an intimate understanding of their Surge. Perhaps this will be a major part of what a Voidbinding spren grants? The “ten levels” might just be a term used instead of calling them Orders, since there are no official Voidbinding groups, yet. Also, there is a WoB saying that the Unmade roughly match up to the Surgebinding Orders (except Bondsmith), rather than the Surges.

Hmm, it seems really unlikely to me that such a useful ability of one of the Orders would become so heavily taboo. I interpret the enlightened Truthwatcher access to future sight as them being given a glimpse at Odium’s futuresight, which Honour lacks. I don’t think the gem archive Truthwatcher would be so scared if it was a regular occurrence for them. It’s possible it was a vision from Cultivation directly, warning off the consequences. Anyway, I took my reasoning in the opposite direction, I figure the Truthwatchers can see the past. Illumination being the Surge of revelation, Progression suggesting time, and prediction being “of the enemy”, it makes sense that they would be able look into the past as a way to gather and verify information, especially since they don’t seem to have literal truth powers. Renarin does something like this when he creates an allomantic gold style shadow of Moash. I imagine a Truthwatcher could create illusions that play out past events (yes, I want an Urithiru noir detective novella). On a side note, I don’t know if Jasnah has GPS abilities, if you’re referring to the WoR epilogue, she was just in the Cognitive Realm where she would have been able to see a group of souls in the distance indicating a village.

@gremlin303 I like this as the best guess for the atium alloys. I have a few suggestions: Nicrosil/chromium might have an aoe like they do in allomantic grenades Copper might protect others from emotional allomancy as well as being at a distance Bronze might detect metal in general or maybe magically active metals, like some ones reserves/minds/spikes Zinc and brass might become telepathic, zinc hearing and brass speaking to others’ minds

Well, we haven't seen much of how the Elsecallers operate, but I would imagine it's the accurate translation from Cognitive to Physical and vice versa; like how inkspren manifest, or a good argument. They're also meant to be logistical geniuses, so that would draw logicspren. Ok, and a Full Lashing attracts bindspren. Lifespren have reacted to both her Surges and she likely has Resonances which match them even better. Venli communes with them when she first accesses Cohesion, but we barely know anything about them, which is why I said I would wait for more info.

Moving together in a group is part of the concept of windspren, separate things being connected as part of a greater whole is likely part of the concept of starspren. And starspren have many limbs and many segments, of course all those different moving parts will look a bit chaotic, I wasn't suggesting the lights moved all together in synchrony. Yes, the release of backed up Investiture, that's what I'm talking about. We don't hear about the Tones for mateform or nimbleform even though those would be the closest to the Shards (lifspren and possibly windspren respectively). Of course, it's not clear if they ever stopped using mateform, and nimbleform came after warform, but by my other reasoning war- and workform still stand out from others. Plus, platespren are naturally attracted to the effects of the Surgebinding (windspren to flying Windrunners, creationspren to the art and illusions of Lightweavers), I don't see why Stoneward Surgebinding would attract painspren, or how they are related to peakspren. Stonespren seems more suitable, but I'm reserving judgment until we learn more about them, hopefully in SA5 with the Stone Shamans.

That's how he interprets their movements because he thinks each light is an individual. Isn't "chasing each other" just 'following each other'? We don't see workform on rediscovery, but it is specifically referenced regarding the Pure Tone when no others are. The singers are awed by hearing the Tone, if it happened every time I would think they would act differently.

As I figure it: Skybreaker - starspren Dustbringer - flamespren Truthwatcher - luckspren/mandras Willshaper - musicspren Stoneward - maybe stonespren but unclear, could even be gloryspren Bondsmith - might vary but not clear if that's between the individual people or the spren, I'm hoping riverspren will make an appearance @Marabout, on Roshar Honour is inherently linked to wind through the highstorms. Honourspren almost exclusively take on the form of wind-related phenomena; blowing leaves, sailing ship, mist. Also: Kaladin sees one. You're forgetting that a whole swarm of 'stars' is actually just one starspren, making them fairly rare. That said, since they can only be seen from certain angles they may be more common than Rosharans think. Also, I support the small number of starspren to a Shardplate theory. On the Stoneward-painspren idea, I had the same thought, but I've since come to the conclusion that both warform and workform correspond to the Bondsmiths, if any Order. Both forms, on rediscovery, caused the singers to hear a Shardic Tone, which we don't hear about for any other forms. The logic for the spren causing the form is also different: instead of aspirational (singer loves, attracts lifespren, takes on life-giving form), its reactionary (heavy object, attracts gravitationspren, take on workform to move the object). So I figure workform and warform are godforms, possibly devised by Cultivation and Honour, respectively.

My thoughts exactly

I’m not sure about them using the Radiant spren, but perhaps the lesser spren they control after the 4th Oath allow them to Surgebind at a distance. We’ve only seen Kaladin control the wind with his windspren, but maybe after his 5th Ideal he can enable them to manipulate the composite Surges. As for the other discussion, iirc Cryptics don’t like being called liespren because it’s inaccurate. Windspren embody the concept of wind and are drawn to it through sympathetic connection. Cryptics are drawn to a lie due to sapient curiosity, because it seems to defy their core concept. I your going to use a -spren name for them, I think patternspren would probably be the most accurate.

I don't recall Eshonai ever describing Timbre as a comet, more like reflected light. I think that Brandon was talking about the spren that appear as bright lights that move across the sky, like actual comets. Starspren aren't that immense, or overly rare. We see them several times throughout the books. Reflected light is mistspren. Timbre is described as comet-like in RoW: Star spren are the size of greatshells and look like meteors. They are described as rare, but this may be because they can only be seen from particular angles (still very uncommon though). That said, I agree that starspren are the Skybreaker platespren: they match highspren and have unusual properties that mark them as special. However, I think that it only takes one or a few of them to make full Plate, with each ‘star’ forming a single piece.

I came to a similar conclusion on Navani. For me, I see it as: Stormfather- Honour is the god of society so the Bondsmith unites people Nightwatcher- Cultivation is the god of nature so the Bondsmith unites the greatshells (chasmfiends, lanceryn, etc.) with the Radiant cause Sibling- same mix of Intents as the Radiants and represents unity, so I also think they unite the spren and unite them with people As for who is in charge of uniting humans and singers; it would probably be the Stormsmith, they just have to see it as part of their oath (Ideals being up for personal interpretation and all). That said I think the Nightwatcher is primarily the spren of gemhearts (hence the disconnect with humans and why I have them in charge of greatshells), so singers may also fall under this category, at least partially. I think what @alder24 meant was that it can't have been the Nightsmith's duty to unite the singers as they were previously only humans fighting the singers; swearing to unite the singers would have essentially made them traitors, yet there is no hint of friction with the rest of the Radiants. Also, Cultivation does favour the Radiant side, she just does it quietly and in her own way. I do agree that she doesn't favour one species, though.

I’m with Rae on this, it seems unlikely that independent, intelligent species would be automatically granted to Radiants. For most of the Orders I think it would mostly get in the way even if it were to share Surges, and it’s adding a third, last minute addition to the partnership between person and spren, making it kind of crowded. Not to mention the issue of consent. I always figured the Ryshadium were in some way created by Cultivation as a bonus for lucky Radiants without a mobility power; mostly Stonewards, Willshapers and some Elsecallers. And while we know greatshells fought in at least Aharietiam (probably with the Radiants since thunderclasts were made to emulate them ent/troll style), since many of them are at least semi-sapient I suspect it’s the role of the Nightwatcher’s Bondsmith to get them on side. As for what the 5th Oath grants, my personal theory is that, just as the 4th Connected them with an important phenomenon (wind, creativity, logic), it will Connect them with some major aspect of Roshar: the Highstorm for Windrunners, the land itself for Stonewards, the Rhthyms for Willshapers. Not sure what it would look like though.

Same, I only saw the Shard's name when looking for the book's title. I'll just say that it is definitely not Justice. Hard disagree here; to be whimsical is to often change your mind based on a whim, which can be driven by passion. I would think a better pairing would be Odium and Mercy: hateful wrath and compassionate forgiveness. Also, your Ruin and Cultivation are both external pushing

Interesting. Have you considered looking at the properties of the metals in the Metallic Arts to determine what Shard might correspond to them. Thats how I theorised my own table, although I'm only really clear on the Spiritual and Temporal segments. Also, the change Dawnshard seemingly granting the effects of the Heightenings isn't necessarily significant as Brandy Sandy has explained that's a generic effect of being highly Invested (I couldn't find the quote I was thinking of but this one is better): Here's how I place the Shards: Spiritual Honour=Duralumin - feruchemically about Connection and allomantically about empowerment, which matches Honour and his magic system. I think it can be summed up as the 'more Connection' Shard Autonomy=Aluminium - both refuse to be affected by external forces, focus on Identity, and removing Connection. The 'less Connection' Shard Endowment=Nicrosil - obviously both are about granting power to others and Awakening seems to mostly revolve around the properties of Investiture. The 'more Investment' Shard Mercy=Chromium - this is mostly a guess as we don't know much about Mercy, but it's about relieving others of burdens and as we see with Honour, Connections can be burdens, taking them away wipes power. And who knows, maybe the Shard has some weird association with luck or destiny. Possibly the 'less Investment' Shard Temporal Ruin=Bendalloy - entropy and rapid change. It's safe to say Ruin is about 'more change' Preservation=Cadmium - stasis, slowing down time. The Shard of 'less change' Cultivation=Gold? - I'm very unsure about which of this pair of metals she corresponds to, I'm saying gold because Surgebinding has no future sight but far and away the best healing we've seen in the Cosmere and encourages introspection. My guess is that Cultivation is the 'planned/responsive change' Shard Whimsy=Electrum? - I'm guessing Whimsy pairs with Cultivation but it could just as easily be Ambition. Maybe Whimsy's magic will involve prophecy and warmth (the originally intended f-electrum property). Might be the 'arbitrary/independent change' Shard Cognitive Odium=Zinc - of course the whole enflaming emotions thing, but also the two sides of Taravangian's boon which aligned him with Odium were literally the Metallic Art abilities of zinc. The Shard of 'divine wrath' Valour=Brass - I guess if Odium is Adonalsium's sword, Valour may be its reward. I think the metal is a good fit as it was originally associated with determination and can suppress fear and doubt, perhaps her magic will involve calm, determined people. Might be the Shard of 'Divine reward' Ambition=Bronze? - pure guess, but the shades which are caused by Ambition's Investiture do punish nighttime activity (wakefulness), so there's that. Possibly the 'Intent' Shard since that's what bronze is basically detecting: magical Intent, plus the shades are particularly sensitive to it iirc (Wisdom)=Copper? - as good a Shard as any to pair Ambition, I have a theory that the Iriali are splinters or agents of this Shard so a link to copper would explain how they stick to the mission over millennia and collect experiences as well as keeping their origin hidden Physical Devotion=Tin - maybe both are about being influenced by things, also the most Devotion-y magic uses lots of symbols and light (bit of a stretch there) Dominion=Pewter - maybe about influencing things, and the very Dominion-y Dhakor monks are like twisted versions of a pewter ferring tapping (15th Shard)*/Invention=Steel/Iron - process of elimination, no idea which could be which *You may not be aware, but your "Unknown Shard" has been named in relation to... So that's my take. If external/internal push/pull does apply, I don't think the meanings are very consistent; sometimes push means increase, sometimes away. I noticed writing this post that some of the magic systems have mechanics that seem directly related to the corresponding metals properties, although cadmium and bendalloy are flipped: cadmium links with Preservation (allomancy) but also blood (oxygen levels) (as in hemalurgy), while bendalloy links with Ruin (hemalurgy) and eating (as in allomancy).

The Honourblades were created at the very beginning of the Desolations; thunderclasts were created during subsequent Desolations as part of the arms race between the Shards. Thunderclasts didn’t exist when it was designed, only singers.

My thoughts on the matter: Skybreakers are probably starspren since they’re the only ones with any similarity to highspren and they evoke the idea of universal laws (of physics). Truthwatchers I think have mandras/luckspren. They clearly have special significance which matches the Truthwatchers’ central positioning on the Surgebinding chart, they allow greatshells to grow larger (Progression) and more intelligent as well as sometimes revealing hidden treasure (Illumination), and they just seem to be there to facilitate things which fits the mistspren’s willingness to work with everyone and matches what I think the core concept behind the Truthwatches is. Willshaper have musicspren imo; music being a method of self-expression and a way to influence mindset. I also think Willshapers have a special relationship with the rhythms, so musicspren would be appropriate there. Stonewards probably have stonespren, it’s in the name. From what I’ve heard, Bondsmiths might have individualised platespren, either to the Bondsmith or to the godspren I’m not sure. I have no real ideas what these might be though, maybe riverspren make it in there somewhere?

Perhaps they purposefully made them that way; if they needed more of a certain type, they could set it to that as they were creating it. A fabrial lashing to the gas giants seems a little… abstruse?, to me. It would lash in a radically different direction depending on the time of day, some of them would be very similar for possibly years at a time, and all the directions would be more or less on the orbital plane (basically east-west-up-down). It could instead be relative directions: eight compass points, up and down. Or, if it is the planets, it could be different gravitational strengths. Just some ideas.

I mean sure, I wasn’t contradicting, just pointing out an unrecognised distinction. Although, the AA is written by one of those in-world “scienties”.

I’m not sure I agree with your theory about spren being made into any Surge fabrial but then being picky about the gems used. The way I figured it, is that a Radiant Order is is responsible for making the fabrials (probably Willshaper and/or Bondsmith) and their ability determines the versatility of the fabrial: a third or fourth Ideal Radiant could only make a limited fabrial but at the fifth Ideal they could make a universal one. I think the spren can only become a fabrial of one of their Surges, although I wonder if the two different spren would create different expressions, since the Oathgates have two spren and two different versions of Transportation. That said, I like your table and the idea of different fabrials interpreting gems differently, but I would like to know how you imagine the gas giants translating into a fabrial ability. For Transportation, I would suggest the gems might play the very simple role of pairing the fabrials. Since there are ten pairs of Oathgates and ten gemstones, I imagine each Oathgates has a large gem at its heart; a different one in each Urithiru gate and a corresponding one in each capital gate, creating linked pairs. Regarding the other fabrials you mentioned: The shield fabrial probably has a diamond soulcaster as its output, and while the sapphire inputs do represent air, they also represent inhalation and highstorms (through Windrunner), which fits with being a Stormlight intake. For the suppression fabrial, I think it may actually be a division fabrial and the garnet in this case represents spren. It didn’t affect Stormlight itself, or Surgebinding since Moash had no problems with the Honourblade. The Radiants were physically fine but fabrials stopped working which more or less rules out blood. The only things affected as far as I can tell were Honour-aligned spren, including the Cognitive aspects of Radiants. They were banished from the Physical Realm (separated from it, you could say) taking the Surgebinding they grant with them. If it’s a Division fabrial that goes to explain why Adhesion is resistant, since it directly counteracts.

The coppermind article lists three categories of fabrial (as in-world artifabrians see it): altering, pairing and warning; which doesn't account for ancient fabrials or even most of the modern ones. This seems erroneous to me. I see these instead as sub-categories which fit into two different categories of fabrial, with surge fabrials being the third kind. I'll explain; and please, let me know what you think. First there are the ancient/Surge fabrials, which are manifested sapient spren (as far as I understand) and replicate the Knight Radiant powers. I see them as pseudo-fabrials because although they look like a technological device, I think they are just an expression of magic (possibly Willshapers and/or Bondsmiths but that's another theory). Second there are the common/modern fabrials, which use metals to induce a spren captured in a gem to interact with its concept (flame, pain, etc.). What they affect is determined by the type of spren, possibly modified by the type of gem, and the effect is determined by the metal. The known types so far are altering, warning and attractor fabrials. I think of them as 'true' fabrials since they require an artificial mechanism beyond the spren-in-a-gem to function. Third is the new category of fabrial I am proposing (not sure what to call them, spren fabrial maybe?) which for now only includes pairing fabrials and fabrial clocks. They are halfway between the other two categories, relying on a lesser spren trapped in a gem but producing an effect related to Surges the spren is linked to without needing metals. The pairing and clock fabrials both use a platespren (flamespren haven't been confirmed but almost certainly are) so they have an inherent relationship with two Surges through the corresponding Order. The Surges in these fabrials are more conceptual/Cognitive expressions, and there seems to be an activating one and an effect one: flamespren in conjoiners will move sympathetically (Abrasion) when they are split in half (Division), logicspren in clocks will change their brightness (Transformation) regularly when there is a constant change in the available Stormlight (changing context, Transportation). The type of gemstone used also seems to relate to the Surgebinding table, with ruby having a standard effect for flamespren (both associated with Dustbringers) but an amethyst inverting the effect (being linked with Willshapers, opposite ruby); clocks use smokestone (opposite Elsecallers) and presumably zircon is best for capturing logicspren but the inverted version of a clock is too obscure to have been discovered yet, perhaps it works as a logic gate of some kind. I'm very curious what other platespren would do in these fabrials.