Onironte

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

I see no reason to assume that the elsegate Ishar made was particularly interesting.

Agreed, I just wanted to point out that, with Honor dead, there is no way of knowing what sort of pre-Oathpact use of the Surges can the Heralds drawn upon now.
We know that, with the abilities they had around 10000 years ago, they helped to practically destroy a planet, and the containment measures that Honor once imposed by are probably no longer a thing after the Sunmaker's Gambit at the end of WaT.
I just wanted to point out that there is no way of knowing whether Heralds have other Surges-related powers we are not accounting for.

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

Their strength and speed do not come from their honorblades, which we can see from Taln who can move at supersonic speeds, and rip gemhearts out of Focused Ones with his bare hands without his blade.

That's what I'm referring to by heraldic abilities:

16 hours ago, Onironte said:

We have been shown that their heraldic abilities are simply insane. Supersonic speed, being strong enough to shatter a Shardplate as if it were nothing...

 

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

The same would apply to the Set, yet Harmony doesn't seem to be able to do much their either.

That's fair. No help from Harmony, then.

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

And I think that between the powers of Roshar and their own surges that there isn't a single Herald who couldn't escape or outright kill Shallan. Even before becoming a Herald Kaladin would have killed Shallan easily.

I happen to disagree. 

Taln at WaT is impressive. Supersonic speed, superhuman strength... but I do not believe that is something you can expect in to be at the same level in every Herald.

Firstly, we know that Taln is the more capable fighter among the Heralds. Even before of those 4500 years at Braize. For those 4500 years he held by "sheer determination". In audition, his Identity was probably affected by 4500 years of worshipers, what probably made him even more capable. The thing about Taln catching darts on the flight and being able to move at supersonic speed is -in my opinion- linked more to his instincts (based on his Identity) that in actually conscious thinking. I don't think even Taln is able of "supersonic speed of thinking". Otherwise I think he shouldn't have died.

And all this supersonic speed wouldn't help Taln against something that his has never seen before, like being attacked by a flock of rainbow ducks with spikes as peaks. His Identity is not superposed to know how to do that. Killing Fused, that he had done for thousands of years. That he can do. He can probably kill anyone on normal combat. 

But his instincts, the ones that allows him to be supersonic, simply wouldn't work against something that make no sense, like fighting against a pink cloud that grows fists or whatever nonsense Shallan can come up with.

And, against the Surges, if she can think fast enough (something we can manage with un-keyed F-Zinc) I think she can counter every Surge. Some surges, like Adhesion, only works if the Herald can touch Shallan. She can protect herself with her Shardplate or even Soulcasting herself an aluminum plate. 

14 hours ago, Frustration said:

This is certainly among the more creative ideas out there, and honestly if you could get a Herald to the CR and then soulcast a sufficiently thick border of aluminum around them might be enough.

Agreed. The problem then would be that, if the Herald has no storminglight would suffocate, unless you make the aluminum box with holes to breath. And if the Herald happens to have access to the Surges of Division (spreading the aluminum atoms) Tension (liquefying the cage) Transformation (closing the holes and killing itself) or some other that allows the Herald to kill or free itself, we would have problems.

Thats why I think that the Hemalurgic approach is the best one. If we can spike the Herald with sufficient precision and keep it alive, using Progression, we have essentially won.

We get Shallan to spike the Herald on the right spots using substantiated illusions (which have practically no limitation of speed, they are not that substantial) we rend it useless, steeling its strength with Iron, its senses with Tin, emotional fortitude with Zinc, Cooper for intelligence, while having an Edgerunner or Truthwatcher, also with F-Zinc, to make sure that the Herald says alive. 

14 hours ago, Frustration said:

1. Just a heads up this isn't the Emberdark spoiler forum.

Sorry, I'll change it.

14 hours ago, Frustration said:

2. While yes perception can mold investiture, it takes far too long to be used practically.

Ouch... it would have been nice. 

14 hours ago, Frustration said:

And no you could not soulstamp pure investiture, just general investiture resists investiture rules.

Definitively no PHANTOM. Auch.
Thanks for the answer and wobs, @Frustration!

On 1/16/2026 at 5:41 PM, Trusk'our said:

You're a seasoned member of the Ghostbloods, working to protect Scadrial from any and all threats. None of which is greater than that of off worlders.

You were rudely awakened to an to the chirping sound of your Awakened Bronzemind hooked to your wrist, informing you of an incoming communication as if Invests you into a fully alert state.

After rushing to your communications room, you're given the news- and a momentous task that Lord Kelsier himself would be wary to undertake.

The Rosharan chapter has discovered that one of Honor's old Heralds has gone mad, and is planning on attacking Scadrial with a strike force soon.

You have been assigned to travel to Roshar and concoct a plan to kill them- permanently. You have access to all that the Ghostbloods' tools and resources. They are not infinite, nor necessarily easy to obtain, but you have permission to obtain whatever tools you deem necessary as long as it is within your colleagues' power to do so within the next six months.

You do not know yet which Herald it is, so you've been advised to either create a plan capable of elimminating any of them, or to conjure an individualized plan for each.

As you step into Harmony's Perpendicularity to head off to the planet of Storms, the Lord of Scars himself wishes you luck via you Seon associate.

So, after 4 pages of pure-gold ideas, the conclusion is basically that the Heralds are quite overpowered.

Because of the Oathpact all of the heralds share some traits and abilities. They are at least very competent in probably every style of fighting (I'll forgive Chana; I think the fact that she lost was due to Shallan being her daughter, not Chana being incompetent). We have been shown that their heraldic abilities are simply insane. Supersonic speed, being strong enough to shatter a Shardplate as if it were nothing...

I'll assume that they are in possession of their corresponding Honorblade, and that means that each one has access to two Surges. Surges that they have used for centuries. They also get other abilities from their Honorblades, some of which (extra strength and speed) are but a trick compared to their heraldic abilities, but they also get the ability to heal effectively.

To be honest, I think those are quite nothing compared to their pre-Oathpact abilities. We see Ishar holding big Else-gates for an extended period of time. We see Heralds shining bright, being able to use Surges in ways that destroyed Ashyn. We know that they are still able to do some of those things (like using the Vedel method to make Kal immortal), and an insane Herald will have no qualms exploiting everything they have. I see no reason why this insane random Herald should just not use Division to reduce Scadrial to ashes. Yes, I am aware that Dawnshards were involved in the catastrophe on Ashyn, but I think it's best to prepare for the worst scenario.

So... what can we do? I don't know why, but the idea of using emotional allomancy on them feels awkward. It feels to me that the Oathpact would give them some sort of protection from those sorts of attacks. But, since our beloved Scadrial is at stake, we can give it a try.

I don't feel like finding a different approach for every Herald, so I'll try some general strategies.

I have two main ideas I would like to give a try:

1. To awaken an anti-stormlight spren created to obliterate the mad Herald.
2. Try and get some help from Shallan.

FIRST STRATEGY:

I was thinking that, in this particular task, Saz wouldn't be totally useless. The task seems to align quite well with Harmony, Ruin and Preservation: to bring ruin to a herald in order to prevent him from ruining us, therefore preserving everything as harmoniously as it was before. Less so for the ruined Herald, that is.

We Ghostbloods have quite a reserve of pure Investiture, and ways to get more. It does not seem nuts to think that you could Align it (Aspect it? Key it?) to be anti-stormlight. We can ask Saz for help, use the Pure Tones, even try Forgery on it (can I soulstamp pure Investiture?) or simply all of the above.

So, having fetched our anti-stormlight (still on Scadrial), we have to make it spren-ish, sentient. Let's call it PHANTOM (Patriotic Herald-phagus Autonomous Nightbloodish Tactical Overkiller Murderer).

We have seen around the cosmere (Sprens in SA, Taln himself, Elantris...) how perception molds Investiture.

If we are to create this PHANTOM, we will only have one chance. And still more than 5 months left. We first design this PHANTOM, its personality, values, ideals, plan, everything. We create a self-coherent, whole Identity for PHANTOM, making sure that it will be (and do) what we want it to do. It has to be simple, and yet whole. We need it to be as simple as possible (so it's easier to imagine it) and yet not so simple as to be dysfunctional (we want it to kill a Herald). Its personality would be basically an entity who understands the threat that the Herald poses and is willing to obliterate itself in order to stop the menace.

Once PHANTOM is clear in our minds, it's time to bring it alive. We get at least 50 fellow Ghostbloods in a room with our proto-PHANTOM. They know PHANTOM's Identity, who it is, they have been studding it for a month. For the rest of the time, we get them to meditate. To meditate on believing and tricking their senses to feel PHANTOM. We can use emotional allomancy to make them more faithful, to induce them into a state that facilitates the process of creating PHANTOM. We can use F-zinc to get them to think (pun intended) faster. If this is not enough, we might need to use marketing (and some of our connections within the Church of the Survivor) in order to get more mental power from our beloved Elendel.

Or... weird idea. We get a Kandra. We provide it a huge ton of... "material", so it creates a body whose only function is to believe that PHANTOM is real (and survive). The mental and belief power of hundreds of persons in just one Kandra. For some reason, I don't think this is possible, but trying hurts no one. We don't need it, but it would be quite the cherry on top.

If we can indeed apply a Soulstamp to anti-stormlight, it might be even easier. We would just have to use the Stamp and get PHANTOM to a Perpendicularity. We would create (code?) PHANTOM in such a way that it would be able to navigate Shadesmar, or maybe even fly using its own (plentiful) Investiture as a fuel. We might give PHANTOM some systems that protect it from accidentally exploding when in contact with a source of stormlight. And make it undetectable and other useful things.

And then... we just grab some popcorn. And think about the creepy parallelism between this and that time when the weirdos of gold and red tried to blow up a bomb without knowing the consequences.

Then we get the explosion... have we just broken Wayne's record?

Harmony is crying...

Seriously, what were we thinking? All that amount of anti-stormlight... applied to a Herald.
That has really strong connections with every other Herald.
And a big chunk of Honor...
Hmm...
Maybe we overreacted a bit...

Kelsier gets into the room, I tell him my concerns. Why are his hands red-blooded? Or is it a tattoo? He laughs, and says something about the greater good, and extinguishing some blue lights on Roshar. He tells me that I have been found worthy of bonding an Enlightened Inkspren.

All's well that ends well.

SECOND STRATEGY:

We have established that there is no way you can defeat a Herald in a fair battle.

But, what if you could summon a huge sphere of aluminum around the Herald? What if you could deform reality itself, like, for example, pushing the herald with wind from every direction? Or creating layers upon layers of horrible creatures from Braize... that actually can harm you?

With enough Investiture, Shallan can potentially deny every Surge. Division with Transformation, Gravitation can't fly if you are grabbing the Herald with a hand made of stone, I don't think there is any Surge that can be a problem. Connection gives me creeps. I just feel like Ishar would immediately steal every photon (that is not a thing, is it?) of stormlight. We would use Pure Investiture.

I know that Shallan quite hates us... I don't know why, really. But you know how those rusty Rosharans are, don't you?
I think we could ask her, you know, all the life-before-heralds, or whatever nonsense they believe these days...
And, if she refuses... Well, we can always place a nice bomb, or rather ten, the ones the Group taught us how to make, and then place them in different locations. Extra points if those places have innocents and shelled kittens.

The choice is hers: to kill a lunatic Herald, with our help and support and some candies for her kids, or the bombs go boom. It's important to make her understand that the bombs are connected via seons; if one is deactivated... you know. We break Wayne's record anyway.

She is not that great, really, we just need her to share her delusions with a lunatic.
Lunatic in the bad sense, you know, not like the Lord of Scars.
We will provide her with F-zinc, to be delusional faster, and all of that. And the jars of investiture... Am I missing something? Oh, yes, we might tell Shallan to Transformate spikes of air into spikes of silver, and aluminum, and some iron and tin, some copper too. And chromium and nicrosil and duralumin! That won't harm us, for sure. We obviously tell her about the Intent needed for proper spiking. So, the Herald either ends up shattered into a bunch of spikes, completely (threat neutralized) or partially, which is functionally the same. Or we might try the trapping-him-in-aluminum strategy... That would be more fun. Imagine all the things we might discover!

• Can I steal the Heraldic abilities with Hemalurgy?
• Can I use an Awakened copper metalmind to steal every memory of the herald?
• And identity and all the other stuff (barring the connections that make the Herald powerful, that is)?
• Can I then use that empty body as a Lifeless?
• How many spikes do I need to apply to my mindless Herald to make it my Hemalurgic puppet?

What do you think?

Please, point out any and every mistake I have made.

I like the theory. It makes too much sense to dismiss. The only problem I can think of Mother Frond herself being Cultivation. An important part of the role of perpendicularity is that it is not caused by a Shard. But that doesn't negate Mother Frond's Cultivation-ish aura. I hadn't noticed the similarities, but now that you point them out, they're quite obvious. Perhaps Mother Frond is an avatar of Cultivation? That way, it wouldn't contradict the whole idea of Shardless perpendicularity.

Please to meet you, @Shard of Reason!

I have always thought that the Invested Art of Whimsy would have something to do with the idea that, randomly, one of your wishes, imaginations, or thoughts would become real without any prior warning. You simply think something, and it happens. Or else, somehow, a power given to those whom Whimsy (whimsically) chooses, allowing them to evade the consequences of their actions.

Pity, perhaps, should have some kind of Invested Art that allows people to take on the pain of others

18 hours ago, Lesser spren said:

Spoiler

I forgot about that part but the question about what happens when a non-radiant gets injected with stormlight still stands.

If a non-Radiant were to receive Stormlight, I think it would be similar to giving Allomantic metals to someone who isn’t a Mistborn. They would have the Investiture present in their body, but wouldn’t be able to use it. I don’t believe you could create a Misting this way, since Allomantic and Feruchemical abilities depend on the spiritual DNA—not just the presence of Investiture in the body.

However, Rayseium might provide a way to steal Breaths. And since Feruchemy can grant attributes like health and youth (hence they are forms of Investiture), perhaps Rayseium could be used to steal those attributes as well. Theoretically. I think.

So, a simple question: Events involving one or more Shards being Splintered, merged, or anything of the sort usually come with major consequences.
 

Ado’s death was something along the lines of Ambition’s, but at least sixteen times more powerful. If we consider that Ado’s power was qualitatively greater than a Shard’s, not just quantitatively, then the Splintering should have been enough to burn out the entire Spiritual Realm, or something equally massive.

Why didn’t it? The only explanation I can think of is that using the Dawnshard’s Splinters is more effective than simply forcing a Shard to Splinter by brute force. Instead of fragmenting power violently, you turn the very intent or nature of that power against itself, making it divide on its own rather than tearing it apart externally.
But even this doesn’t seem like a very satisfying explanation. The sheer amount of entropy that such a release of Investiture should have created is tremendous. 
What do we know? & What do you think?

Okay, I'm missing something important... Why don't Inkspren need Nahel bonds anymore?

I would probably be a windspren, so... maybe just float around?
If I were a smart spren but not Nahel-bonded, I would probably go to the Peaks for a while, just to be adored. I would likely try to find Cultivation and offer to be her emissary, an ally. I would seek the Old Magic to be able to use the Surges and become a Surgebinder myself, without needing a Knight. Then I would act as a diplomat between the Shards. I would help Hoid and follow him (cool things happen around him), picking up investiture all across the Cosmere.

Oh, I know: I would go after my dearest Sig and propose to him that he give me the Dawnshard of Existence. And since I am a spren, probably an Inkspren or a Highspren, the command of Existence would be tied to my own Intent, self-mastery if Inkspren, seeking Justice if Highspren. That would prevent me from being limited by the torment of the Dawnshard.

Once I reached that point, I think I would get bored and just continue following Hoid.

By the way, what is exactaly what Szeth do, and why does it impact the value of an inkspren?

I think the more likely option about the wife's identity is Valor, yet it doesn't make sense that a Shard whose intent is Valor would blank her own memory just to "avoid the memories of an unsatisfactory relationship". My two cents are on Valor being the wife, her memory erased by a valorous act of some sort.

Even though Aether of Night is non-canon, we have already seen a lot of ideas from the novel in the Cosmere:

What do you think?

On 7/30/2025 at 12:23 AM, SpiritOfWrath said:

Even Vivenna’s blade isn’t like Nightblood.

Is there any evidence that Vivenna’s blade is a Type IV BioChromatic Entity (an awakened inorganic object with true sentience like Nightblood), rather than just a Type III?
It would make sense that, once Vasher realized the dangers of a truly Awakened inorganic sword—particularly one capable of killing Vessels—he would have advised Vivenna against making another like Nightblood, and instead suggested she simply Awaken a wooden sword, or even a sword soulcast from wood.

It's just a theory, but I think that, since their souls are so intrinsically connected to the Spiritual Realm as to make them unable to receive a nahel bond, they should be able to stand against Shardblades, their Investiture being replenished constantly. Probably Nightblood would be different. Or maybe not—maybe a dragon could stand against the weapon that destroyed Rayse. Rayse was Connected to a Shard, and that Shard was Connected to the Spiritual Realm, where the Shard's Investiture came from. Dragons are directly Connected to the Spiritual Realm. That could make Nightblood reach the "saciated" state before consuming the dragon soul/mind.

Thanks for the answer @Treamayne! (and for the WoBs)
I get that you can not use a Bondsmith to change the Cognitive Identity of someone, but could you use an Elsecaller instead? Up to what I know, the main difference between Soulcasting and Forgery is that when you try to put a Soulstamp on someone, you have to "create" every single detail about who (or what) the stamped person will become. On the other hand, the limiting factor of Soulcasting living beings is that a lot of investiture is needed to "counter" the investiture of the living being. You do not need to "create" every single detail about what will the Soulcasted person become, only order it (and pay for it). So, we have got a dying (less Invested) friend, we could Souldcast them into the pretermentioned supra-Kandra, couldn't we?

How does healing works on the Comsere?
We have seen at least three different kinds of healing powers: F-Gold, Surgebinding-based healing (both the Surge itself and the effect of Stormlight on Radiant Knights) and Wit's powers, but they all seem to work in quite the same way:

Quote

Questioner

Stormlight, I know it heals wounds and stuff like that but can it heal illnesses like colds?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes it can.

Questioner

So if Kaladin suddenly contracted brain cancer...

Brandon Sanderson

It's plausible-- it depends, see what it does is it takes your body and makes it align with your spirit, and partially through the filter of how you view yourself. So if you view yourself as sickly, then you won't.

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014)

So, if you think of yourself as ill, ill you will be. Nevertheless, I believe that this "thinking" (poetic redundancy, forgive me) is not brain-related thinking. (I know it's not canon, but Dragonsteel Prime has tons of things that have become canon.)

That being said, we don't have any (surgical neural-network engineering) way of altering someone's brain, but we do have a way of altering their connections to make them (or at least the unconscious part of them) believe they are something that they are not.
 

So, finally getting to the title: a powerful enough Bondsmith (or someone with Ishar's Honorblade) could make someone believe he is not human, but a dog. Or a dragon (unfortunately, that dragon would not have draconic-related magic, what a pity). Then the subject would heal himself or be healed by a Truthwatcher or Edgedancer, and become the imagined creature.

So let's take it one step further: Kandra. Those marvelous creatures with only two big problems—metallic, blood-related problems. Spike based problems.— We could bypass those problems by simply making someone believe that they are a Kandra, but with the difference that their minds won't be imprisoned in spikes, but spread throughout the body, contained in their ultra-developed neural tissue. And you could grant them other Blessings—not magic-related, but biologically possible ones. You could make them able to digest dirt, to sense electromagnetic fields, or even to make them infect people with a virus that would heal every illness, strengthen the bones and muscles, and all of that stuff.

As long as it's biologically possible, only the sky is the limit. No, probably not even that. You could give yourself wings, lighten your bones, and change your body structure so that you can fly. And swim under miles of water above you. And run faster than Fleet. Imagination (and physics) are the only limits. You could create an army that could outrun the Fused without Investiture or effort. And imagine them Invested—that could be perilous.

Your presumed reality becoming your reality. This seems too stupid, crazy, and logical to make any sense. Please tell me your opinion or any other related theory, and where I am wrong.

10 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

Maybe part of the endgame will be that Kaladin and Co. pull multiple semi-Shards from Honor, establishing semi-Shards of Wind, Stone, and Night (or Night is created by taking a huge chunk out of Odium residue instead, maybe the Midnight Mother is transformed into the Night proper or something).

I really like that theory, hope it comes truth sometime...

9 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

1. Honor (as part of Retribution) continues to develop more sapience and awareness, learns what is truly Honorable and eventually understands context/nuance

2. Honor develops it's own true Identity and rejects the Taravangian (at some point when T does something stupid that leaves him vulnerable to lose both Shards)

3. Honor stands in as the new vessel of Retribution, with stronger emphasis on Honor's Intent

4. Honorbution goes through the cosmere absorbing all of the splintered investiture from prior shards, eventually sucks up and takes on all of the other Shards, becoming Adonalsium re-formed with no human/mortal vessel

An Honorful god indeed... the mind on the god being only the consequence of it's own powers. But Honorbution would be still un-full, as is not Honorable to took the god from the people, to get Devotion and Ascend while destroying Elantrians. So Honorbution probably would not take all the Shards, what would make him Un-Harmonious. And Honor is still a child. Ati used to be kind and generous, Honor would have agreed with killing Odium, even if that resulted in the end of Roshar. Ati became a psychopath. Even though he wasn't partially brought up by Odium and Taravangian.

6 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

How honorable are the Honorspren who ruled Lasting Integrity, like Sekeir? Not very.

For that matter, how Odious is El? Not at all. He seems to hate no one. (El, of course, is a Cognitive Shadow, not a spren, but he certainly should have been very influenced by Odium.)

Yes, it is truth that Honorsprens are not an example of Honor, nor El is of Odium, but still they are small chunks of Honor's and Odium's power. If we are arguin that the Evil is the last remnant of Ambition's power, it has to be Invested by thousand (an approximation) times more power. However, if we agree on most of Ambition's Investiture (aka Ambition's corpse) being out there hidden, maybe Silverlight, maybe Vax (why not?), maybe Braize or wherever, the Evil would be less Invested to a similar level as sprens or unmades, so that could explain why is not especially ambitious.

Wind getting a pseudo-physical form... That sound relevant to the 2nd Era, maybe now that the storm is gone, Wind will take her former place on the pantheon.

51 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Well, there's also that most Shards didn't consider him much of a threat, particularly after being bound on Roshar. Valor is AWOL, Autonomy has her own plans, Endowment is being Endowment.

But also, the fact that Odium took down Devotion+Dominion together would indicate that he's got ways around the power imbalance he's got. Despite being weaker than Honor, he got the better of him by dragging down Tanavast so much he lost Honor.

"Endowment is being Endowment"... liked that. Yeah, I agree with the practice of Odium with Shard-to-Shard confrontations making him more perilous, not necessarily strongest in raw power.

51 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

Not a WoB, but Tanavast seems to think that's what they've been up to in WaT, making marvels across the cosmere.

That make sense...

51 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

... speaking of which, there's probably a reason Honor didn't ask Mercy for help either...

Even though helping honor wouldn't have gone against Mercy's Intent (from my point of view)

51 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

I mean, we haven't seen too much of the Evil to say for certain, but Investiture that gains sentience isn't necessarily limited by the Shard's Intent - Nightblood isn't all that Endow-ing of a personality, for instance.

I agree in general terms (mistborns doesn't seem to be pacific people, nor Kandra violent...) but if we are talking about the Evil being the main remnant of Ambition's power (far more invested than Nightblood) there should be at least some Ambition related trait (as Nergaoul is biased to Odium's Intent, but even more clearly, for the Evil being more Invested)

Edit: I've just seen @Ixthos proposing on this topic that Ambition's corpse is hidden at Silverlight, and I think that's a worthy theory.

19 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I think this is this one - which was more about Devotion/Dominion than Ambition, and we learned a bit about that in WaT. (Namely, Odium got Devotion/Dominion to weaken each other, then finished them off.)

That one, thanks!

19 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

We also know that Odium thought that the fight against Ambition would have been easier than it was, and he was wounded because of it. Perhaps his help wasn't as much help as he thought.

Perhaps, but it still... weird how he was still able to be a thread to every other Shard after being wounded for the fight against Ambition, not to mention against Devotion and Dominion... How? Can Shard's wounds be healed somehow?

19 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Invention's been going around making random things...

Do we have any WoB on that?

19 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I think most Shards had such Investments - Honor seemed to give up more power than Odium did, Cultivation gave up pieces as well, Preservation and Ruin built an entire planet/people, Invention's been going around making random things... perhaps Valor hasn't been Investing, or Mercy.

Not to speak about Whimsy and Reason... I'm the only one finding strange that two Shards whose Intents are practically opposites have been acting exactly the same (hiding/non-acting) for at least 10.000 years?

19 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I actually think somewhat the opposite - some of Ambition's power is tied to Threnodites, and passed through there heritage, as the people of Canticle all seem to be fairly Invested based on their sunhearts compared to the Rosharan's. Although this does seem tied to them as a people, rather than only affecting those alive on Threnody / those alive when the Clash happened. 

I haven't thought of Canticle's inhabitants as Threnodites, I forgot about them. That make a good point, but it is still not enough investiture as to explain where is Ambition's power.

19 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

But I think, perhaps, Odium partially Splintered Ambition (or the Splinters that were made in the Threnodite system, as Ambition seems Splintered elsewhere) were placed into the Physical Realm. The Evil seems to be many large chunks of Ambition's (or Odium's) Investiture that gained some level of sentience. 

It could be, but that still leave open the question of how it is that the Evil is not ambitious. Maybe the way of Mercy of being merciful was to give a chunk of her power in order to counter Ambition's Intent on the Evil.
 

19 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Oh. Maybe, actually, Mercy or Virtuosity. I do wonder if Mercy's Vessel is another Sho Del, as it would seem unlikely for their to be only one - but Chan Ko Sar / Invention also sounds Sho Del-ish.

It sound more like Ke’Chan to me.

19 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

That could be a Mercy on Ambition, to end her suffering. And a Mercy on Threnody, to save it. And would it be a Mercy on the greater cosmere?

I liked that, but I think we can dismiss the Threnody theory because of the killing of Ambition taking place out of the Threnodite system.

 

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Failure results in suffering. The surest way to avoid failure is to not even try. Hence there is a reason Mercy and Ambition do not get along well.

31 minutes ago, AsherCrane said:

Technically untrue on 2 accounts.

1. Inaction can certainly lead to punishment. One could argue that it does so less often perhaps, but not enought to say not trying is the surest way to avoid it.

2. Mercy is the deliberate forgiveness of punishments, not just a lack of suffering. Without punishment or suffering, there would not be more mercy, mercy would not exist. 

Going with Ambition would the surest way of finding people who need Mercy to save them from their ambitious screw-ups.

I agree with @Oltux72 about suffering, because trying means putting a part of yourself into the fight, a part of your self-esteem, which causes more suffering when you lose than when you don't try. And at the same time, it'sGoing with Ambition would the surest way of finding people who need Mercy to save them from their ambitious screw-ups."

What I don't understand yet is why would Mercy not interfere against Odium when he came to destroy Ambition, potentially causing incredible amount of suffering to the Threnodites.

He thinks for a minute

Ahhh, because the mercy goes AFTER the suffering have been dealt... Isn't that kinda worrying?

Good point.

What's technically a spren? If we follow the definition on the Coopermind, neither the Heralds nor the 3 Bondsmiths' spren are actually sprens. Nor Seons... it's a weird barrier.

Crackpot twist indeed... That would have been crazy, a deus-ex-machina. But even thought, that would have been... interesting. As it would been Kaladin being spren-turned into some sort of Knight of Wind spren.

Hmmm...
I like that question, and I think that, when the time of the fight come, Harmony will turn into Discord, or maybe even Sacrifice.
With that being said, I don't think the confrontation to occur in Scadrial nor Roshar, but open space. And It's gonna be... explosive. At least 4 Shards involved, with potentially 7 or even more (Autonomy with Odium, Valor with Saze, Mercy to give the final stroke and even Whimsy). Odium against Ambition wounded the Spiritual realm and causes nightmare-like immortality. An attrition between Odium and Honor created the Shattered Plains. The fusion of Preservation and Ruin brought a new world. The Ascension of Odium to Retribution broke time (temporally). There we are talking about 2 Shards business. Imagine more than 4. That could easily destroy a piece of Cosmere. And because of that, a question arise: How the Shattering not only did not destroy the universe but had no noticeable effects (beyond the Shattering itself)? Could it be possible that Dawnshads might be able to prevent that catastrophe from happening? That could explain why Wit is still related to the Exist Dawnshard...

Good point, I initially thought it was the power of Honour ("part of us" that used to be part of Ado), but that makes sense, although it does sound odd that Wind's power was so weak that he couldn't speak World Spread, yet he was able to protect the Heralds. Perhaps Stone or Night were involved? Or it was a mixture of Honor and Wind?

That answer is probably as wise as it gets...

Welcome to the Shard!

Pleased to meet you @Oraiyu: if you were present at the Shattering, what Shard would you have chosen and why?

SPOILER ALL                                       INCREDIBLY IMAGINATIVE THEORIES; DO NOT TRUST THEM
The idea for this topic came from Possible Shards Combos, specifically from @Ashbringer, so thank for that!

The few things we know on Mercy (Shard) to the date:

• It was taken at the Shattering by an unknown Vessel.
• It was involved on the fight between Ambition and Odium, fight that ended with the death of Ambition, resulting in a wound upon Threnody's Spiritual realm (shades are a consequence of this wound)
• We also have Words of Brandon (I haven't found it, sorry) in which is told  that a one-vs-one Shard fight is perilous, and Odium would only  have attacked Ambition knowing he would win. That sounds to me like a team-up with another Shard, probably Autonomy or even Mercy (or unlikely Valor)
• And that's all we know, we don't have much info about Mercy (I've only found 7 entries of Mercy on the Arcanum)

And on what is exactly the Intent of Mercy Shard (aka dictionary):

• : compassion or forbearance (see forbearance sense 1) shown especially to an offender or to one subject to one's power
• : a blessing that is an act of divine favor or compassion
• : compassionate treatment of those in distress

I don't know about you, but the Intent doesn't seem particularly dangerous to me, and even less so to the extent of troubling Harmony.

So, I don't think Saze is concerned with the Intent per se, but rather with who the Intent is directed to.
Who is worth of Mercy?
Practically everyone. The Fused, the Heralds, every suffering fella of every suffering specie. However; Who is suffering the most? Who is living literally Hell on life? Oh, Threnody. And, by chance, Isn't Mercy responsible (at least partially) for most of troubles haunting the Threnodites?
To my knowledge, Odium got some help against Ambition, probably Mercy, that was present on the incident, maybe even Mercy itself gave the merciful final stoke to end the suffering of Ambition. The other likely option of Odium's ally is Autonomy. It would fit it's Intent to kill that Shard that potentially could try to conquer everything. To end Autonomy's autonomy. And, should Autonomy interfere, To what extent? Would she really compromise her power completely? Or only a small piece of it? So, if another Shard interfere in favor of Ambition, she wouldn't loose to much? If Ambition were still alive, the Evil wouldn't exist. If ambition were still alive, the dead Threnodites wouldn't come back and kill the living ones. Should Mercy would have helped Ambition, Threnody wouldn't be suffering.

       Mercy: a blessing that is an act of divine favor or compassion

Compassion for a inflicted wound upon a realm. What actions could a being called Mercy on that scheme?
Some ideas:

• Odium had nine Unmades (invested to the point of some sort of conscience and other god-like powers), tons of voidsprens (a huge amount of them conscience) and a storm of investiture. In addition, he granted immortality an Surges to at least seven hundreds of Fused. And he was still considered all thought the Cosmere as the more dangerous Shard. Even if we consider Ambition as Splintered, the Investiture that the Evil seem to posses and the Splinter of the Secret Project 5 plus probably less than hundred thousands non-aware Shades is not that big. Not to the point of a Shard. So, maybe the power is hidden. I think the Cognitive realm is a good option, so maybe Mercy could bring Ambition-Corpse-Based-Magic (Selish-like) to the Threnodites. Or maybe Odium took Ambition corpse somewhere else. Thrown into a pit (Braize). An then built a house over the pit to make sure no one take the remaining Investiture. People upon a broken land with Ambitious power would be problematic to Harmony, as they could seek Hemalury.
• Where's Ambition power? I think that the shades are caused by the wound on the Spiritual realm, not because of Ambition power investing some Threnodites' souls to immortality. Maybe a guilty, merciful god could see the suffering that it has caused to the people by being accomplice of their god's murderer. Maybe Mercy will attempt to give Threnody it's god back, by Ascending itself or giving it to a Threnodite. That sounds plausible to me, and would definitively troubled Saze.
• The Evil kills people. Killing what you can use doesn't sound Ambition-like. It sound more like Odium-Ambition twisted investiture with a pre-Shattering entity (like Stone, Wind, or Aethers). Maybe Mercy could destroy the Evil. But Saze would like that, so unlikely.
• The Shades could be suffering, lost in on an attributed, foggy mind, angrier because of your bloody, cruel, sudden and fast dead. Stressed to the point of killing everyone that reminds you of your dead (blood), or scares you (fire, run). Maybe Mercy will invest the shades to be merciful instead of angry, afraid and frenetic. To help Threnody to raise. But this wouldn't bother Harmony neither, so unlikely.
• Paranoid level theory: we are focusing on Mercy for the mortals, but what about Shards? "Duty is heavier than a mountain death is lighter than a feather". Being a god, all those responsibility... Poor them. Maybe Mercy would kill them all to end their suffering. Unlikely, but would definitively worry Saze.
• Sja-anat could be partially invested by Ambition, so, maybe Mercy, guilty for killing the father, tried to help the son, moved some Shard-strings to free Sja-anat, maybe even help her consolidate power on Roshar. Harmony would be worry about that.
  
   

What do you think?
Where I am wrong?
It is Mercy's Vessel Senna?
Why do you think Ambition Splinters doesn't seem to have also ambitious intents?
I'm looking foward to reed all your crazy theories.