Tamriel Wolfsbaine

Alright. I am going to take my entire breakdown of the fight and change one thing. Instead of standing and punching you jump up and superman punch them at the weight of a few thousand lbs, or in the case of crumbling a building a few hundred thousand lbs perhaps? Now, since you are in the air and in motion moving 10x faster than a normal human with all of the enhancements you can fall on them at the same time as punch them and gain the benefit of iron. So long as you are in motion from the air at a downward angle. Cause it is written like that.

"Punch um harder". Can I stick my arm out in front of me, ramp up my weight to 10000lbs and sprint with steel/ pewter and hit them that way or would it just land like a totally normal run in with a 200 lb dude? But if I do it to a wall I will obliterate it completely.

I hear you saying not true but what is it about the skimmers we see on screen increasing their weight and breaking through floors, destroying buildings and holding gates closed that makes you think being heavier while swinging suddenly does nothing? I don't recall Wax tapping pewter or burning pewter to crush the ground beneath him. To say that tapping weight effects the world around you in every way with the single exception of when it comes to hurting other beings is strictly false. You can crumble floors but adding weight behind a hammer magically does nothing because that hammer was used to hit a kandra? Iron on its own isnt great for fighting because it slows you down and if slowed down proportionally to the weight you gain then you would have the same force. But sitting on a person would still crush them as well as it does the floor during the explosion. If Wax pushed on a plate of metal with his allomancy that was crushing a person and tapped the floor would the person be fine because they are organic and can't be hurt by a thousands of lbs crasher while the floor gets destroyed under them?

Straight from the coppermind. Iron doesn't increase density but it effects everything around the user as if there were more mass there. Thus your equations for kinetic energy and moment stay the same and as mass of the object goes up the level of damage would as well. However, speed effects these things more so it would be acceptable to start as big as your body can move and then store, becoming significantly lighter as you are swinging which would make your already speed enhanced attack more that much faster giving even more of a blow. Your heavy weight fighters aren't bowling people over because of their muscle strength. The mass behind those bombs is what makes them so dangerous. Strength is not to be overlooked as the better of options when fighting... but becoming twice or thrice or however much heavier you can be while your strength can still carry you will make every strike land proportionally harder. A 10lb sledge hits harder than a 20oz hammer... and if that 10lb sledge were concentrated on the same size area of impact as that 20oz hammer it would be magnitudes worse for the thing getting bopped.

Honestly I haven't read this book in over a decade but I believe it is in The Well of Ascension chapter 53 when he is helping to hold the line. Either way iron has always confused me. I understand that there is no density change and there is no increase in mass itself. I have heard that the effects only effect the outside world but that you have to deal with being too fat and heavy to move around right either. Iron is the biggest culprit for breaking the rules as it is written because it is unbelievably flexible and strong as a power. How can a person become so heavy that they stop a group of Koloss from breaking through a gate, or break the floor underneath them, or crumple up a building via a steelpush... but if they hit you with a swung hand while weighing thousands of pounds it is the same as being hit by a normal hand. If it worked that way the use of iron in a physical swing would actually severely limit your ability as you wont be able to move it as fast as you would if you didn't tap it. (Perhaps this is why Wax isn't throwing haymakers). However we aren't talking about an iron ferring alone. This is a fullborn who has pewter A and F compounded as well as F steel to aid in throwing these thousand lb fists. I think it makes sense that we didn't see super heavy blows being thrown in the other books because they did not have access to strength / speed enhancement as well as iron. It even makes sense that Sazed, a scholar, would have chosen to use them one at a time due to having a finite amount of stores and each metal on their own can offer plenty of combat potential. Against any other opponent I would say burning through one or the other to spread over time would be great. Against plate and healing of a radiant... you have to go for broke and throw everything at once. There is no such thing as too much overkill but there is such thing as too little. Iron just behaves in such a way that it is hard to define. The weight of the user does not cause them physical harm but they do become slower and more encumbered to the point of becoming nearly immobilized. Storing it, likewise, allows the user to feel more agile but actually lowers their total strength. There are no notable effects around them from having higher density or mass but everything is effected by the fact that they weigh way more. I imagine the bones of an enemy being sat upon would break just as quickly as the floor did when Wax broke through. If that is the case then a fist from a person throwing that much more mass into you is going to hurt just as badly. The key to using F iron as a weapon is having the strength and speed to move it like one. Enter the fullborn vs any other iron ferring.

Bleeder looked right at Wax from the speed bubble and was shocked he was able to stare her down. Moving in a room at blur speed multiple times not just once. Most fights last a few seconds at most and both of these combatants have tools to end it very quickly. One moves fast enough (or slows the world down slow enough) to not get hit while the other is 100% reliant on plate and stormlight in melee. Speeds efficiency is also very dependent on the distance to the thing that is moving fast. I am not worried about a car going 80mph a few hundred yards from me. If it was dancing around me within 6 feet I would unlikely be able to track it. We saw Sazed murdering Koloss by "dropping" his fists onto them. The fullborn with speed and strength to lift those fists is absolutely going to be murdering anything they hit. Momentum and energy will be off the charts with that kind of weight swinging around at steel speeds. This. This is why @therunner worked out a few different equations (not just him that was quite the marathon I had him and @alder24 running. If it doubles every time then the bands would have had the age of universes stored up and used in 2 seconds. Compounding is far far more dangerous when the calculations are as simple as "it doubles every time" but feruchemy on its own looks a lot weaker. Compounding with these other equations seems far less imba but in return normal feruchemy becomes a lot more viable as well.

The weight and power of a car concentrated into a fist sized point of impact.

It is hard to understand and fathom the advantage of time dilation and speed. Instead of thinking of it as "I move 8x faster than my enemy" think of it as "the world and everything in it moves 8x slower than me". One of my favorite scenes of all time is Bruce Lee vs O'Hara. That is the advantage speed gives in real time and at the peak of human capabilities. Now that backhand can weigh a few tons and move even faster as well as be fueled by more strength. I think steel became so OP when I stopped thinking about it as "this dude runs fast" and instead started thinking about it as everything else in the world is moving through mud while this dude is moving through air. Either way zinc plus tin are going to allow the fullborn the closest thing to atium without actually granting atium out there.

I agree pretty well with what we came to a page or so ago. I was grateful for the thoughts and math. Personally I feel like it works out even better for the fullborn either way. A. Feruchemy base is stronger because compression isn't as punished as I thought. B. Compounding is worse but more balanced in the long term. If it worked the way I thought it did (and the way it seems frustration may still see it to a degree) then... A. Base feruchemy is weaker than what we have seen. B. Compounding becomes far more imbalanced and OP. I see it as a total wash either way for the fullborn as either the feruchemy is stronger or the compounding is stronger. Either way 8x speed for a compounder will last a good while. What we saw of the bands was 40x more.

Unfortunately this is against a compounder and the storage capacity for steel is such that I imagine moving 4 or even 8x faster than normal for long enough to dispatch a single enemy would not make a dent into their stores. Without F-Steel other things come into play and it is closer but I still think it is the fullborns fight to lose. In melee you have Allomantic pewter and Feruchemical iron that you can weave to make some weird moves. Conservation of momentum would be your friend for feigning and redirecting blows I think would work better. Bendalloy could still allow you to be hard to track and fight (depending on how much control you yourself have over the bubble). Rocket ship style steel and iron pushes/ pulls will be helpful and every reverse lashed metal chunk is a new anchor to use. I don't know that zinc would give you "faster reaction times" as much as it would allow you to take in every telegraphed move your opponent makes and work through to the perfect answer in the time it takes you to react. Less instinct and more calculation. It would be like having 2 grandmaster chess players in a game but 1 has an hour on the clock and the other has a minute. The pieces move the same speed but one gets the time to process out the best action every time while the other is relying more on muscle memory and instinct. Also Spook compared his savantism while fighting with a blindfold on to atium where he could feel the attacks before he would have ever been able to see them. As a fullborn you get all of the benefits of tin savantism with none of the drawbacks and you have zinc to take that information and calculate every possible move before the normal person would have seen it. The fast twitch muscles might only allow you to react at a specific speed but every single action will be the most efficient and effective action that could be taken in that moment. Between pewter and iron I am sure the fullborn will still have the agility and speed to out maneuver the radiant in melee combat.

Good point about your body being protected from the metalminds. So you could easily ramp up near 1000 degrees and just bake the radiant inside of the armor with your hand thrust into their back. Combine that with zinc and tin to magnify your ability to respond to the smallest of telegraphing muscle movements and you could easily dance behind the radiants every move with minimal steel usage. In the case of fencing... HEMA fencing doesn't reward suicide the way collegiate fencing does. And with gold compounding you could simply accept and heal through most cuts (I would argue all cuts) even from a shardblade. Go-ahead and let them cut off an arm while you gain their back... it will be healed as soon as the blade passes fully through it anyways. TLR did nothing against vin except push and pull the metals in her stomach as a flex right? I haven't read it in a long time. I know Vins fight against TLR was him playing with food for a few paragraphs and then a shard directly intervening allowing her to yoink his bracers. Not the same feelings at all that I got from the Kaladin vs Helaran fight. That was like a 5 minute choreographed dance they did. Kaladin was throwing knives, breaking spears, ducking multiple blows that cut down his team members surrounding him. It was a fight and everyone who witnessed it was shocked by it. The thing about steel isn't just that the person moves twice as fast... to their perception the entire world is moving half as fast. (Wax staring down Bleeder from the bubble). The sword is faster. That is a fact. But percieving it in half speed is insane. Straight up saying this made me laugh. I watch For Honor duels at half speed all the time because it is fun to see the characters entire movement instead of just one bit of it. And steel won't limit the frame rate of the world like videos do.

I never thought I would see the day when the word hillbilly had to be censured. Anyways I like everyone else answers. If you have infinite healing you will take on a lot more hillbillies than if you don't. As far awakeners go... the lifeless army of gun toting folks was my argument in favor of nalthis vs earth. The lifeless keeps those skills. And of course 10th heightening doesn't even need the sound of his voice Sus started awakening only after his healing because he never tried to awaken anything any other way. 10th heightening is literally with thought. So dope. No hillbilly survives that one. Can't pull a trigger if your clothes are ripping you in half.

I figure stormlight healing appears to get better and better each oath that a radiant progresses through. I imagine by 5th ideal it will be better. I agree that the increased durability of pewter is a unique thing to pewter. There is undoubtedly a surge where a radiant can replicate it coming up in a book but stormlight baseline is not going to give the increased durability. I believe that the durability also ramps up when using duralumin for pewter as well. When Vin pops a guys head with a headbutt her head did not also suffer trauma. I believe that duralumin burning pewter doesn't just give a massive jolt of strength but also compresses all of the durability that person would have had and gives a huge jump in that as well. Hence my stated tactics of tapping strength/ iron/ steel all at the same time as a duralumin burn of pewter (maybe you don't need the duralumin and pewter alone would be fine) to stick your hand through the shardplate and rip out the still beating heart of your opponent Elijah Mikaelson style.

Bendalloy ferring / compounder with sand mastery or Lift, or any other things out there that are fueled by food / water would be bananas. The disguise idea is exactly how it works for compounding in the MAG. With other magic systems bendalloy compounding has become a top contender for my favorite character builds.

I imagine Stormlight healing is on par with gold compounding to be honest. The same dangers that a gold compounder faces would be faced by someone with stormlight. As far as the F brass idea. I think you guys are right and melting the spheres is out of the question. I also don't think you have to be that hot to make a huge impact. The radiant would be suffering horrible pains and agony and requiring massive healing every second with someone's fist inside of them warmed up to anything past boiling point... and like you stated they could push it up to the lowest melting point of their own metalminds. They do get protected but by how much? I would imagine metalminds on the skin heated to a few hundred degrees would start to require the fullborn healing themselves as well but it isn't a useless tactic as the feruchemy will protect them beyond what would start to require massive healing from the radiant to deal with. Also I don't know that the fullborn should worry about getting his hands cut off. There will be no attacking from the front with F steel. (Or even if they had savantism with bendalloy). You duck under and side step any attack moving way way slower than you should have to sweat (cause steel is bullet time) and you attack the spine through the shardplate. Attack the back of the head... where ever you feel like it but not from the front. Even moving twice as fast as the radiant would be more than enough to gain optimal position behind them for whatever strikes you want to make. I do think the windrunners best chances come in the form of ranged attacks with their surges. Any moment where they think they can get into range for a shardblade attack would be suicide.

Sazed tapping pewter would likely look a lot different than a fullborn tapping pewter as the fullborn can compound allomantic pewter strength specifically. I always assumed Helarans fight against Kaladin was more legit and that Kaladin actually did have access to some stormlight for that but it wasn't seen due to the mid day sun or whatever.

I think the speed just depends on where it starts and when it is used. There is a difference between tapping a bunch to close the gap and tapping a bunch for the melee combat. I think moving 2x faster than the radiant in close is going to be more than enough to dance around the shardblade and land your shots. You only need to play at supersonic speeds if you are trying to close a large gap quickly. Just imagine a boxing match where one guy was able to move twice as fast as his opponent... and think at normal speed for how fast he is moving... and now he can ramp up zinc as well as tap other feruchemical powers. Steel isn't just good for blitzing your opponent. It is bullet time at your fingertips. When you tap you don't just move super fast... everything else starts moving super slow. Steel is great for closing gaps. Its even better for just not getting hit. You want to nullify the shardblade advantage? Slow down your enemy and the whole world around you so much that you are Tobey Maguire fighting flash. Step under and around the radiant. Tap a ton of strength / weight / heat and flare all of your pewter (heck at this rate just duralumin burn your pewter) and plunge your hand into their shardplate and burn their soul away cooking them inside of their plate while squeezing down on their heart / spine all while flaring and burning as much chromium as you possibly can after grabbing them. You really wouldn't have to go that much quicker than 200-300% faster than normal to duck under them. Kaladin took on a shardbearer before he even knew about Syl. Shardplate and stormlight are awesome but they won't hold a candle to a pewter enhanced human with even 200% normal speed via steel.

I am almost upset I never thought of this before. Would there be a trick with F duralumin to drain the spheres of stormlight? Also can a radiant breath more stormlight in if they have massive chest trauma as well? Would the radiant be able to continue fighting while healing from a headwound while some super speedy hands strips them of their clothing with all of the gems lining it? Leeching is great for preventing the shardblade being resummoned. I think separating the spheres from the radiant or even breaking them would be a better route to sapping them of their stormlight. I know shardplate is good insulation but a hand inside of the radiant inside of the storm plate and a massive heat storm of brass tapping should totally melt the radiant and the gems he is holding / wearing (or at least damage the spheres to leak a bunch of light).

Unfortunately I think the "go elsewhere and wait" against a fullborn is unlikely to be a winning strategy. They aren't going to tap their metalminds and burn their combat metals just because they feel like it while not being in range of the windrunner. Fullborn has bronze and is also a tin compounder now as well to deal with sneak attacks as well. Tin and bronze both burn so slowly it isn't an issue and in the world of waiting out the other the fullborn has all the tools to win. Compounded nutrition, wakefulness, breathing, heat... they can pretty well outlast anyone in a seige type of fight. Plus the metallic arts are very energy sparing. Everything is toggle on and off. Light leaks... even out of imperfect spheres there is loss. So long as the windrunner is relying on surges they will run out of resources waiting long before a fullborn who has compounded steel sight and bronze sense plus the normal bonuses from tin. Compounding tin has every benefit that tin savantism gave Spook but toggleable with none of the drawbacks.

Thank you. I appreciate other formulas. Hopefully you can see why my brain was broken. I was really tied up with this whole double the speed half the time thing. Still yet that is going to be a considerable amount of speed used up per second of burning a metalmind as well. When burning it you would still be sucking out 1370 years worth spread over however long 37 grams would take to burn and then amplified right? How fast does each gram burn away at? Per gram you would have 37 years worth of storage at 50%. When burnt it is magnified. I can see the allure of tapping for more of a bump, but depending on how fast a gram of steel burns you are still moving insanely fast just by burning it and it will be a smooth flow of that level of speed the entire time you have that steel to burn. So long as you keep 1/10th of it after a conflict you can Pretty well tap and store back to your starting point no? My math was off base pretty bad. I assumed it was double the time for every single 50% stacked on. Again I am glad it works out to have different math. My brain was hurting at the thought of it but with fresh sleep I feel better about it. It works out a lot closer to the MAG than what I was thinking. For those wondering in the MAG each metalmind works off of a charge system. A small ring could provide 25 charges. In the game if you were to use 20 of those at once you could move for 1 turn at roughly 50mph. There are rules for steel all the way to 50 charges in a turn allowing for like 200mph speed (bracers would be a 200 charge max metalmind). When compounding in the MAG you ingest or peirce yourself with a metalmind and can burn the charges away (losing them forever). Each charge burnt turns into 10 so a ring with 25 charges could be burnt to allow for 200 mph travel for 5 turns in a row. You can also split and use charges sperately storing some for later use or tapping from other metalminds at the same time to offer different bonuses. Totally a side rant there but the math lines up to that better at least.

Can we just take a moment to appreciate how much speed was stored in the bands? If Marasi is running 3800% faster than her baseline for 2 seconds and we follow that math it is beyond disgusting. Each 50% past 150% halves the time she is able to move that fast. 3800% to hit Mach 1 -150% to give us the total time we need to figure out. 3650% is being compressed. 3650/50 (because it is being compressed in 50% increments) gives you 73 times it is being cut in half. So we work backwards. 2 seconds of mach 1 breaks down like this in my mind. 2^73= 9.444x10^21 seconds Breaking it into more manageable chunks it ends up being 2.99 trillion centuries worth of 50% speed to give 2seconds of mach 1. Honestly my entire questioning and understanding of compounding needs to have this checked first to move on. It will be some terrible tasting crow if I am bass ackwards on this but this is what the WoB tells me the bands held and it was drained in 2 seconds. If that is the case... and the bands could be easily carried and even concealed in the case of wayne... and steel supposedly only made up for 1/16th of their mass... This is where I need my correction. I'm happy to go back to talking in circles but first I need to hear either I am crazy or this really is what 1/16 of a spearhead was packing. Edit: MAG is the mistborn adventure game. It is wicked fun and even though it is not strictly cannon it is wonderful to have a set of Brandon approved rules and maths to play with in games. Plus a few bonus stories from Brandon in the books. Kelsier training... Allomancer Jack escaping some Koloss.

Honestly I feel like it is going back and forth so much. I'm trying to not be dumb here. I'm saying is that gram for gram the bands were so full that had Wax burnt them he would have been traveling so much faster than tapping them would have allowed... unless there is a cap on tapping them. Is the cap for tapping a metalmind dependent on its size or how full it is? Obviously pewter burns faster than copper or tin in the allomantic world but you are saying that it is the amount of power in them either has a bearing on the burn speed or it doesn't. If I burn 1 second of a steel metalmind does the metalmind get destroyed at the same rate no matter how much attribute is stored in it? 10 molecules at a molecule / second... do I end up with 10 seconds of burn no matter what? If I end up with 10 seconds of burn no matter what... do I get the same amount of attribute out based on how much was there to start with? You have 10 seconds of 50% speed in that. You burn it and get 50% x10 each second? If I have 100 seconds of 50% speed stored in those exact same 10 molecules burning at 1 per second does that mean that I will get 500% x10 each second? How much attribute matters and your end gain goes up because of it or it doesn't. The rate of burning a metalmind either stays the same despite the attribute stored or it doesn't. My whole point is that the bands were so full of attribute storage that had they been burnt allomantically they would have given a gigantic boost of speed for the entire duration that they could be burnt. Whether they were ingested is besides the point as I am simply saying that Wax could have burnt a shaving at a time and done what marasi did... not just 10x as long but to magnitudes we can't wrap our brains around... because the compression and demininishing returns only happen when tapping regularly. All of that aside I actually enjoy the way the MAG works it and I am happy to allow that to sit as my headcannon but the MAG uses power ratings to limit what can be done and how fast. In universe is the allomancers strength going to impact it? Elend burnt metal faster and gained more power from it than Vin. If they both were compounders would Elend be allowed to burn more metal faster thus unlocking feruchemy at a faster rate and gaining more from it than Vin? The idea that attribute stores evenly but when compounded and burnt, the attribute comes out faster than the metal can burn thus turning that metal into normal allomantic metals suggest that the amount of attribute pulled per second of burning will be the same regardless and you can simply burn longer... which would say that compounding gives you the maximum amount of attribute you can gain that way per second. In order for it to not go into the net negative realm we have to assume that had the bands been burned they would have given the same benefits that any other metalmind would have. The bands ending up being the only viable "full" metalminds we have seen (though if Miles had so many I am sure most of them would have been full too).

This is where we disagree. Where do we get that a metalmind burns at the exact same speed no matter what? How is the metalmind then full ever? Is there a maximum space for attribute / molecule and once that is reached your metalmind simply burns at a rate of 1 molecule / second or whatever thus limiting your burn rate to that molecule per second? This would seem to contradict the strength of the allomancer playing any role in compounding as this is the physical limit of feruchemical storage. If a metalmind is so full of attribute that the burn rate is determined by molecules it actually makes a bit more sense to me that it can be limited. Your fill time would be filling a single molecule to its capacity and then that molecule once burned gets to fill perhaps 10 more. To try to quantify that from the BoM would be a real trick but that does a good job of putting us back into the RAFO box. So Wax can't burn it to move mach 1 due to the metalmind being stuck at a forced caped burn rate. Filled simply means you have hit the absolute limit of attribute to be held in each atom for that metal so as to adequately slow down and bottleneck the end result of burning said metal. The necessity for burning the metal is to store it so that you can tap and get penalized adequitly per diminishing returns so that the story may continue with any suspense at all.

I had been looking for that WoB too. Reading WoBs while shopping and then knowing you saw it but not being able to find it again is horrible. Anyways I think I am in agreement with everything you stated. It feels wrong to say Wax could move well above Mach 1 for hours or days but depending on how big that metalmind was would be the deciding factor. If it took a week to burn with the speed stored to make Marasi break the sound barrier. It would be 100% depended on burn rate. The smaller the metal chunks the faster he would be able to run when burning it. The larger the metalmind the slower he would run but it would last way longer. To stretch it over even a week with that stored speed in a large metalmind would still give access to speeds that make Marasi and her dash blush. Again that is speaking for just how full the bands of mourning were. Makes perfect sense that Miles was able to survive being shot in the face as it was happening. The amount of storage a compounder can build up is absolutely ludicrous and it will only multiply itself as fast as you can burn through it. We don't know how big the bands were and I get that. I was just playing off of how ridiculously full they were and what that means for compounders in the future. The figures had been 188grams of steel based on someones estimation of 24cc per metal and steels ~7gram/CC. We obviously don't know how fast it burns. But I have seen in the vs battles people claim a flake lasting hours and a nugget lasting a minute. The slider moves based on the current argument I feel. And I do try to give the benefit of the doubt but we are still talking about tens of billions of seconds of speed used in a 2 second burst vs those same tens of billions of seconds of speed being stretched and then multiplied through whatever time frame that chunk of metal takes to burn. Edit : In response to the burned part being condensed to its maximum potential then that really helps explain that the bands could have been made via compounding as well. Given how awesomely full they were and that you would be getting the maximum benefit from burning it, we have entered into an even faster way of compounding metalminds as it will continually compound into itself. The starting point would be next to pointless. Store a second burn it and store it and then burn that and store it. Alternate which metalmind to burn from everytime you start gaining the allomantic effects and soon you would have only a pure / maximally filled metalmind. Then play the same game with bigger and bigger chunks of metal until you are holding a spear head sized metalmind.

Yeah that is sort of where my mind was. If a compounder had gold plates throughout his body and instinctive burning is a thing then being able to use f gold to heal the spirit should work. WoB says it works to the point of gaining powers stripped by a spike back should be more than enough to mend the soul even post shardblade to the spine.