JohnnyKaizen

I enjoyed Szeth the most, because honestly, his flashbacks made the most sense (to me) for who he is. He never really changed at his core from a child, He grew and he learned, but he also kept struggling to find answers that nobody wanted to (or couldn't) give him for various reasons. I also greatly enjoyed Eshonai's flashbacks, but not Venli's. Venli now, is a far more interesting character than Venli from years ago.

So I had a thought. What if this is about Aux? The wall of grief, I imagine that all of the Highspren are deeply hurt and agrieved, and they quite literally put a wall between themselves and their Radiants. The darkened twin could be Nightblood. The captive, is Szeth, and you can take your pick of what Aux would see him as captive of: his own mind, his actions, guilt, his oaths, etc. And the light he loves? Well, he is surprised to find that he loves Szeth, the Radiant Szeth who became the law. It was the moment that changes Aux's entire life.

It's always interesting to me in Sanderson fandom how folks can like and dislike opposite things. It was when Jasnah gave that lesson, that I started to like her. To each there own.

For one, that seems legit. It makes logical sense, and the Everstorm never has made sense to me (in origin, and) as to why it showed up when it did. I am also thinking about that line that Honor threw out to Ishar (when they were discussing leaving Taln on Braize) and the others about how 9 could never work, because it's Odium's number... 9 Heralds on Roshar, and Ishar, the Bondsmith, forged a Connection with Odium directly by absorbing some of his power. Yeah, that seems like it's got some real legs on it.

He also melds aluminum as armor all over his body, presumably to block a shardblade, but possibly to prevent something like what you both describe. He also had a title once, Vyre (He who quiets), which I assume is someone who kills lots of people..but my Sandersense tells me there's more to it than that. His title was taken initially, and now he doesn't want one back. And yeah, I'd say he's discovered one or more things by not having a title, and rejecting a new one.

Rayse didn't particularly need moash at all. Other than the fact that he was useful as a backup plan. Part of moash's whole deal is that he's always been an afterthought to almost everyone in his life. The only person to really welcome him in, was Kaladin. He's never going to be welcome anywhere again, and that's on him. He'll flee to the ends of the Cosmere to hide from that truth. That said, he had a direct Connection with Kaladin, and was useful to Rayse in trying to turn him. That's just a fact. He did need the windrunner honorblade, because it added more Connection and also whatever weird stuff Brandon has done to it. All he said was that it's "corrupted" which is the over simplistic way Brandon describes any complicated thing he's not going to explain in the book he first introduced it in. Taravangian can manipulate anyone, you are correct, but he went out of his way to get moash's concent for some reason(s). Nothing Taravangian does is on a whim. I don't like moash, don't need him alive, and really don't care what happens to him as long as he doesn't get the chance to torture/maim/kill any ofther characters I care about...but Taravangian wants his consent for a reason, and if anything was convenient about him in WaT, it was that he was Brandon's tool to separate Sigzil from Vienta so that he and Aux can bond. But whatever Retributions plan(s) is for moash, they aren't nothing unfortunately. You asked why two different vessels of Odium would use moash, well there are legitimate answers, despite how boring and trying he is as a person and a character.

I am planning a re-read relatively soon of SA 1-5, and I will pay particular attention to both of them. I have thoughts about it, but I don't always remember correctly. I'll most likely be taking notes as I go, for just such discussions. For Rayse, that's pretty easy, he wanted moash to kill Teft specifically, so that Kaladin would get so furious with murderous hatred, that he would become his (Odium's) champion. He failed in that, but that was the why. Taravangian wants a useful idiot. He delights in manipulation, and see moash as an easy mark to have someone "volunteer" for the Rosharan version of hemalurgy. In manipulating moash into consenting, he's made a very specific kind of weapon, an effective weapon against BAM. I know that he can kill spren by seeing them with those stupid eyespikes and using anti-investiture, but there's really only one spren that Todium/Retribution really wants to destroy and/or Unmake, and that's BAM. I don't doubt that Taravangian cares as much for moash as we do, but a controllable tool, is a useful tool, and nobody is as big of a tool as moash.

I hate how accurate this is Honestly, that's entirely in line with his character, and with the feelings of members of Bridge 4..even with his "dead body" discovered in Shinovar. From the moment that Moash attacked Kaladin in Elhokar's palace, he has been trying to make Kaladin admit that there are some actions, so terrible, that a person has forfeited there life, and that they need to be killed (morbidly hilarious coming from moash, but yeah). I would argue that moash is more upset about Kaladin telling him that he's wrong for wanting to (and then following through) kill Elhokar. He considers Kaladin to be his best friend, and the person who was going to give him a pass at murder, and how dare he tell me no. He's been increasingly butthurt about that ever since. He freaked out without his emotion-draining from Odium about killing Teft, but Odium never stole his freewill. He didn't have the emotional baggage at the time, but he knew full well that he was going to murder a windrunner and their spren. It wasn't worse because he killed Teft over any other member of Bridge 4, and he went knowing he was going to strike down one of Kaladin's men in pursuit of his punishment for Kaladin. To "teach" him a lesson Arrested Development-style, "This is why you never tell Moash that he can't murder the people he thinks should be murdered." Taravangian is waging the same campaign with Dalinar, and that's now been extended to Jasnah as well. I also think he is adding her to that obsession list because Jasnah is considered to be one of (if not the) smartest people on Roshar. He's still butthurt over the doctor's prediction at his birth, so in the style of a 12 year old bully, who goes and beats up a kindergartener, he used all of his godly powers to set Jasnah up to fail and then to gloat over it. Before and after the fact, he's hoping he can abuse her into servitude. Moash would love nothing more than for Kaladin to break down and tell him that moash was right, and Kaladin was wrong, just as Taravangian would love to hear that most from Dalinar, and now apparently from Jasnah as well. Perhaps I misread or am misremembering, but I thought the entire interlude with Taravangian in the SR version of Kharbranth, was about him admiting that Dalinar was right and that he'd always keep Kharbranth a secret? As for Moash, he's known he was wrong since Kaladin first told him. He knew it was wrong because he hid it from Kaladin, and he knew it was wrong because he'd made Kaladin his stand-in gauge of morality..as long as he went along with what moash wanted. And I do think that ties in with your comments about trying to drive Kaladin to off himself in RoW, because he wanted to break Kaladin, and that would somehow mean he wins. What he would win though? Nothing in actuality, but moash needs to feel like he's right, and he's basically turned himself into a murderous Sisophus, who will never achieve his goal, no matter how much effort he puts into it. You called that stagnation, and I think you're right, but I believe that Brandon his written him that way on purpose, to fester and rot. It's not very fun to read, and I'd rather he be all the way dead forever, but alas, I'm pretty sure he'll stick around for decades. Honestly, as I sit here writing and processing, I wonder if Brandon isn't setting moash up as a rival of Taravangian's for the Shards. BAM is already a clear favorite of Odium, and she was betrayed by Tanavast, so she is already a clear and present threat to Taravangian the Shard vessel. She honestly is a much better vessel than Taravangian every thought about being. In that line of thought, moash could represent a twisted option that Odium and Honor could be tempted by. I am convinced that Taravangian will not be able to hold onto the powers indefinitely. He is a walking contradiction, and we've already seen how the powers respond to that. As I said above, maybe it was so two Powers could be tempted to give him eternity?

Well said, and always worth repeating when it comes to stuff Brandon (especially) writes. Yeah, still feels like that was awkwardly shoehorned in as a setup for something in the back half. Not sure where Brandon is going with that, but hopefully the payoff is better than the introduction. Dalinar was never, ever going to submit to Taravangian. Even if he became his servant, he'd do what he was told, but he wouldn't ever agree with Taravangian. There was a WoB somewhere, where Brandon talks about how he had to decide whether to let Taravangian live or die in RoW, and he obviously didn't let him die. I don't know what the storyline would have been with Rayse alive, but wildly different for sure. With the story going the way it is, Taravangian needs an antagonist he has a chance of convinced that the TOdium way, is the right way. I believe he'll ultimately fail, even with this other version of Dalinar, but I don't feel that it's shoehorned in. I do feel that The Blackthorn exists almost exclusively for Taravangian..and probably for the Kholin family, as time goes on.

If Once is representative of both the book and it's author, it could be a reference to his coming story, outside of the front 5. I for one, am greatly looking forward to that story arc.

Having read all these comments, it helped me coalesce some thoughts about him. I feel that moash is now more in alignment with Taravangian (maybe even Retribution, depending on how the Intent settles in) than he ever was with ROdium. He lives to proove to Kaladin that his decisions were the right decisions and Kaladin's were the wrong ones. Taravangian still wants to proove that to Dalinar, and I assume he's going to try that with Dalinar's SR doppleganger. Both moash and Taravangian are wrong, and they both know that they are wrong, and they both forge ahead with the lie, as if it would give them any peace if they managed to achieve that stupid goal. I am curious if moash is told what happened to Kaladin or not. His plans and motivations will likely shift wildly depending on if he finds out or not. If he doesn't, I could see him going offworld due to lack of an emotional anchor, in Kaladin. If he does know Kaladin is alive, I'd assume he'd work towards bringing about a return of the Heralds so that he can get back to annoying Kaladin. Honestly, he would have the potential to be interesting again, if he went offworld. Potential doesn't gaurantee anything, but it could happen. Either way, he's lockstep with Taravangian's nonsense at the moment, as well.

I dont see it that way, but I certainly can understand why (with you seeing the story with this perspective) that you feel the way you do. I hope that the back 5 and the Cosmere gets better for you in the long run (since all the narratives will merge in some form eventually), and I’m sorry that it feels that bad for you..that really sucks.

Ok, now all three of you make me want to see moash monologuing about how he can see investiture and how special he is, and then Navani walks up with some silent fabriel shoes in an aluminum skin suit and stabs him in the face, and then just walks off like, “I think I’ll have some tea.”

Vyre (or as many refer to him, &%$#@ moash) is alive and..uhh unwell..for the back 5. I realize that he's had some very strong plot armor up to this point, and that if anyone could kill him, it would've been Kaladin, who hasn't because of unresolved traumas and feelings towards his friend and whatnot. I am pretty sure Kaladin still sees him as his friend, despite the horrors he's committed. Not that he likes him or excuses him, he clearly doesn't, but I think he still feels the connection and that still hurts him so much. BUT...hopefully Kaladin will return in the lifetimes of all our favorite Rosharans, and will return much healthier and capable (mentally and physically), and hopefully will put that dude down for good. That's what I'd like to see happen. Super Herald Kaladin not having any of moash's nonsense and killing him all the way dead..preferably by dropping a mountain on him or something equally definitive (anti-light explosion...lash him into a star...make bacon bits out of him with his honorspear..etc). Anybody else think this is likely to happen? I'm not even saying that it will, I just want it to because I'm lightyears past done with moash and his nonsense.

To bring up an old classic of mine from the meme thread, well done you...

I am a native English speaker, and I've thought about this, this afternoon, and I've decided that my brain forcibly ignored the pun. I am, in general, not a fan of puns I can't help but hope that this isn't true. It is almost certainly a moot point, and you're probably correct. That said, I still want something to happen there, it's just how I feel, and I'm pretty confident that's not going to change any time soon.

I mean, whatever the mechanics are, they do seem to be the same across the Cosmere. At least at this point from what we've seen, but I was would surprised if we ever saw any variation from anyone, no matter who they are or where they died. I expect that the Beyond is a universal constant in the Cosmere.

I get that, but also, a non-answer is sort of an answer as well. Also, as far as the mechanics of the Cosmere go, Brandon is sort of that role, much like Stan Lee represented himself in the Marvel universe at one point. I also tend towards there being something in the Beyond, beyond the Beyond, because it physically interacts with the Cosmere when people die, waiting until their investiture has waned (or Wayned..I am now wondering if Brandon was telling an awful pun this whole time). We've seen it over and over first hand, with invested folks who have died. Nobody really dies in the Cosmere, they just move. I believe Brandon when he says that he'll stay hands off about the Beyond, but I also believe that he won't be able to not reference it either directly or indirectly over the next few decades, because he's already done so. But, we are also talking about the philosophical side of the Cosmere at this point. It all is and isn't, because Brandon wants it to be that way.

One one level, that feels like semantics and not much of a difference at all. Then again, we're talking about Brandon, so clearly there is some be deal with the Beyond specifically that I'm sure we'll hear about in 2055ish. So yeah, that's a valid point, and I wasn't actually aware of the specific mechanics of how Dalinar had done the things he's done. That still doesn't really explain his connection to Nohadon and the conversations they had. Did Dalinar Connec to him instictively? Did Nohadon do something? Or was there some other factor(s) at play that we don't know about yet? My immediate thought was a movie title, Stormlight Archives: The Ofrenda Agenda I'll go now.

Dalinar, who Connected with folks in the Beyond, multiple times, and also connected Kaladin to Tien...Dalinar who made Connections to a place that multiple Shards have said they don't know anything about (which begs the question, are they lying..is Harmony lying? Or is Dalinar just the baddest of the bad with Connection) and was still able to Connect with those he loved the most, even after the Stormfather was completely destroyed (which should have terminated all of his Bondsmithing abilities since he was not holding Honor at all, and yet he did) that person decided to sacrifice himself instead of being a god, giving Honor the gift of life, in all its complexity, something that hasn't happened to the power (I assume) since before the Shattering 10,000 years ago and thereby has most likely saved the Cosmere as a whole, in the long run...that guy decided to head on over to the Beyond and see what he could see, and is most likely capable of connecting back from the Beyond (imo), while keeping his grandson (nephew, but by Alethi law, grandson) alive by shielding him with his own body...I guess you could call that anticlimactic and lame. Well, you did, so you can, but it seems odd to me. What more could you want from Dalinar as a person (from his life and/or death?), not to mention, Dalinar gets to be dead and not dead at the same time, as there is a Spiritual Aspect with all of his memories running around, currently working for Retribution, who (if I'm not mistaken) isn't actually bound by the agreement that Dalinar and Odium made because that agreement was for Dalinar's soul, which Retribution lost. Yes, he's wanting The Blackthorn from the SR to replace Dalinar, and he may actually do that in time, and not the way dumb ol Taravangian wants, because that Dalinar doesn't actually have to serve Retribution. He agreed to serve, but I don't see that as an oath made, unless I'm misremembering how that interaction went. Personally, I got everything I wanted from Dalinar in WaT (and then some), and I'm going to get more from him in the back 5, and maybe from more than one Dalinar. I don't mind if you think that's anticlimactic and lame, but I think it's weird to see it that way. But, to each there own.

The countdown was good and bad imo. Good in that it lead a progression to a serious endpoint buidling up tension, and gave you a tangible sense of how close you were to the "end" from the character's pov, but also bad in (what others have also said) about jumping between various extremes of different viewpoints. I know Brandon has always done that, but in WaT, it was more jarring than I'm used to. I assumed that was on purpose, as the end of the world (and the Cosmere at large) was at stake. I didn't love it, but I felt the intentionality of it. If I hadn't been on my own mental health journey over the last several years, I wouldn't understand at all how you could describe Shallan this way, but I definitely do. I used to LOATH Shallan. I thought she didn't make any sense..that she was whiney and erratic..self-centered and always in fight or flight. All of those things were/are true to some extent, but there are also reasons for them, legitimate mental health reasons that make SO much more sense to me now, and that's because I've come to understand (much better) my own mental unhealth ,and continuing recovery. Shallan knows that she's been a terrible person, she also knows (now) that it wasn't her fault at the time..she was a child who didn't want to die, and later, didn't want her brothers to die (and she made very serious decision with the mind she had at the time, a mind of a traumatized child). She is working hard to make amends for herself and for others. But to say that nobody but Hoid and Adolin like her? That's axiomatically untrue. Kaladin loves Shallan. Navani and Dalinar love Shallan. The Unseen Court adore Shallan. Mraize even, clearly really liked Shallan. Syl likes Shallan. Pattern and Testament love Shallan. Renarin clearly loves Shallan, despite the problems they both have. Shallan's mother, whom she sent off to be tortured (unknowingly obviously) loves Shallan and is proud of her. I would argue that most main characters in Urithiru like and/or love Shallan and that they've demonstrated or outright said so in the books by RoW and WaT. I get why people don't like this, but I really do. The ancient spren would have had a noticeably different way of speaking, that nobody but the Stormfather and Syl (once she regained most of her memory) would even know about. That Brandon chose for that to sound more "mordern" was jarring for folks, but I don't really see why it's such a big deal. The majority of people who crap on Brandon's work will invariably talk about how much his prose sucks, and how great GRR Martin and Pat Rothfuss are. I will admit that both of those authors have elevated prose in excess, but how has that worked out for their fans in the last decade as far as novels go? I'm fine with whatever evolution Brandon takes. If he feels that he deviated too far with WaT, then he'll adjust going forward. If not, he wont. Folks can, and will, complain for as long as Sanderson writes, but if you still don't like his writing after dozens of books, why would you keep reading his work? Brandon (more often than I would like) puts information out there for readers to glean, outside of the lines. You're meant to sit back and ask, "what does all this mean? where will this inevitably lead? etc" and for a lot of people, that's not what they want. I get that, but Brandon is going to do what he wants to do, and he's already proven that he can publish books on his own through kickstarter and the like if Tor or others don't want to publish him. He can, and will, do whatever he wants in that regard. So, I'm just gonna roll with it myself. Straight people who never spend time with anyone who isn't (if if they do, they don't listen) and so everything they read, Brandon or otherwise, is through a cis/het lense that everyone is how they perceive them. When they do read really obvious hints, they'll go something like "Huh, that's weird, anyway moving on" and promptly forget until all of the sudden out of nowhere Renarin is gay?!?! Rushu is non-binary?!?! The king of that Reishi isle is trans?!?! Folks who don't see that LGBTQIA+ people live, love, laugh, cry, grieve, have joy and peace the same as them..won't notice normal relationship stuff as it develops, because whether they understand it consciously or not, they don't see those folks as "normal," meaning, they can't live their life just like me because they are so different from me. That was how I thought and felt and acted growing up, and those were topics of conversations many many times. At this point, explaining it to folks who don't yet understand, isn't really helpful, in so much as they need to look for it, and see for themselves, or it won't happen. Which is sad, and it can be difficult for those folks, but it's definitely not impossible. Far from it. Also, as others have said, anyone using "woke" as a derogatory term, is so far from the point that it's not worth it to engage in the first place. It's just a filler criticism for myriad other complaints that the people using it don't want to (or can't) articulate. I would imagine you're already aware of this, but if by some chance you weren't, there it is. This was one of the biggest laughs for me in the entire book. Adolin was pretty slutty, and relationship dumb, and self-aware dumb. In a lot of ways, he and Shallan were perfect for each other because they were both finding out that they had been lying to themselves about who they thought they were and what they wanted out of life. Maya was on the nose, and personally, I wouldn't change that line. But, to each their own. I honestly don't know what people who are complaining loudly about the ending, actually wanted. Between the death rattles, the other foreshadowing, and what the characters themselves have been saying..not to mention Taravangian ascending (who I can't fully describe my feelings about without violating the rules of this site) the ending was basically a best case scenario. But again, I don't really relate with folks who wanted it to "be better" than it was. The book literally could have ended with a sizable chunck of Roshar destroyed and everyone scrambling to climb out of the stoneage at warp speed, or worse for that matter. Overall, it sets up a lot of possibilities for the back 5, and I really wish we were getting to them sooner than later. Yeah, it's been mentioned several times, by several characters that the Azish have paperwork for everything. If folks think that official gender reassignment doesn't full under "everything," then I guess they can go check a dictionary or something. I am also, almost positive that this specific subject has come up before, and this was just the first time it played out "on screen." But as I said above, folks who aren't going to notice, aren't going to notice (much less remember) until it is completely spelled out for them. They were? I felt like they were abbreviated and shorter than the two characters deserved. This is one of the many places were I took issue with WaT, and feel that it was mostly because Brandon very much ran out of space. Tor had to use different paper to even bind this book. Honestly, I feel like a lot of the issue in WaT could be fixed with a part 2 that's another 300k+ words, but that wasn't ever going to happen. Again, if folks think that trans folks can't exist in fantasy when they already exist in reality..I don't know how to help them with that, because that's super weird. I had always thought that what Brandon was trying to express with that (based on other comments that are very affirming of trans folks specifically, and all minority groups really) is that the Identity that one places on their soul, just is the default, for whatever reason, even non-legitimate ones. I would consider hypnosis, or any other form of mind-control to be a non-legitimate (in moral validity) way to cheat someone out of who they are. Hemalurgy literally steals pieces of people's souls, and I had always felt that his comments on being hypnotized into altering one's spiritweb and/or visible form, was explaining the violation and extreme stakes involved with doing such a thing. For intance, neither Hoid nor Taravangain could get away with doing that to someone (because of the various rules they are bound by) because there is no way that either of them could consider that to be anything other than a grave harm to a person, which they aren't allowed to do. Also, I wouldn't say that mental illness is "how the magic gets in." Radiant spren look for folks who fit into whatever order, who have cracks in their soul. That's not just mental illness, but trauma of any sort. And honestly, everyone has trauma of one kind or another, and I think that's the point. Everyone needs healing and help, not just people someone might think needs it. Anyone can be Radiant, but most people won't be. That said, you have a very valid point. It does leave room for vagueness, and there shouldn't be anything vague when it comes to this, because that can and does lead to harmful interpretations. I hope that there isn't any intention towards that, consciously or unconsciously, because that would be a serious wrong. I also hope that Brandon will speak more to the specificity of this process going forward, both in his work and in public discussions. As to the people griping that trans people existing is "woke," all they are saying is "I don't want to be reminded that people who aren't like me exist, much less be the heros. I want to identify with all the heros, and I can't do that if all of the characters aren't cis/het and look like me." That's pretty much the long and the short of it. Yuuup. I don't remember this scene, so I must not have noticed it. The therapy language for me, seemed like a mix of Kaladin trying to grasp this task that Wit gave some context to (but far less than would be helpful) and Sanderson trying to be accurate for readers as to not inadvertently cause harm. But, that also could just be my subjective opinion and not based in fact at all, idk? Again, yuuup. I really don't know how you can compare Shallan and Cersei. Cersei is entirely self-aware and doesn't care that she does whatever she wants, whenever she wants, to whoever she wants..no matter how much pain, violence, and/or murder is involved. Not only that, but she is Petty with a capital P. She'll punish and/or kill someone just because she's upset with them, whether or not her hurt feelings are even legitimate or not. Shallan has done a lot of bad things, but a lot of them have been without her full knowledge. Her coming to grips with what she's done and facing the truth of it, is one of the pillars of her character development. Cersei always knew what she was doing, and gave zero bananas about it. They really couldn't be more different imo. While Lift isn't trans, her body dysmorphia is still a real issue that a lot of folks who aren't trans deal with as well. I honestly thought it was a good addition to the narrative. I do agree that trans folks should be found more in the foreground, mid, and background of the Cosmere, because they exist everywhere in the world, and shouldn't be hidden or left out in series that cover dozens of worlds across a galaxy. You certainly can. In text, it can come off as something similar to typing in all caps, or give a lot more emotion to a sentence than perhaps you were intending. I personally think there are more effective ways to communicate that, besides quoting it and leaving a question that could be misinterpreted as passive aggressive, but again, text is a very limited medium than can be taken in all sorts of ways that the author didn't think about and/or intend at the time. I also feel that it was critical for Szeth and Kaladin to go to Shinovar together. Between the Wind and Wit, it was clear that there was a whole different plan for Kaladin that he was unaware of, and also, that Szeth most certainly needed outside help, which to some extent, he accepted to his benefit. I would have prefered that Szeth be aware of Kaladin becoming a Herald, but again, that was a deliberate choice Brandon made, so I'll just live with it. I don't understand what you mean by Kaladin being bumbling? I enjoyed the format, but the execution (several times for me) felt far more jarring than even the previous books. Again, the more I've dwelt on it over the last several weeks, the more convinced I am that Brandon ran into the wall of "End of first half of SA" and didn't have room for more. Folks have commented about him running out of time..when he has had books 1-5 outlined for more than a decade, and wrote 5 whole novels in his spare time because it helped his brain. I don't think time is as much of an issue for Brandon, as word limits are. I have never gotten the impression that the Ghostbloods are struggling against Odium. Their stated goal (which presumably is Kelsier's) is to package and transport investiture off of Roshar to the rest of the Cosmere. Also, several times in RoW and WaT, it's stated that Mraize and Iyatil "have their own plans" which heavily implies that they've been lying to Kelsier about what they actually were doing on Roshar, and I am also pretty sure that at one point, Kelsier made a comment about how he suspected that they (Iyatil and Mraize) were kind of doing their own thing...which would make sense as Iyatil implied that Kelsier had already told her no to whatever her plans were. So I don't know how much is Kelsier and how much was Iyatil and Mraize? For me, I couldn't have felt bigger emotional impacts. I ugly cried several times in WaT and laughed out loud a lot more than that. I greatly enjoyed it. I'm not sure why others didn't feel it as much as I did, but since I don't know, I'll leave it at that.

What assumption did I make?

What is "the same sex thing"? What is there, "to get into"? I don't understand that at all. You wrote that Rlain and Renarin's relationship "made your skin crawl" because you "just can't imagine it." You are 100% correct that I made an assumption based on that, as I assume many would. I have no desire nor need to "discuss the gay aspect of Rlain and Renarin's" relationship. As any Inkspren would tell you, "It is." What in the world would there be to discuss? I see no reason why any thread I'd compose would be locked in minutes (or ever, really), unless others decided to violate the rules of this site, because I have no intention of doing so. You've chosen your words very carefully, and you've ignored the words of others (coincidentally while quoting them, which is somewhat amusing, but not the most helpful). You've made it very clear to everyone reading this thread exactly how you feel, and how you want to present yourself as a person in this forum. I would hope that I have as well, and if not, I welcome anyone to a conversation. Maybe one day, you'll be able to imagine something as simple as having romantic feelings and/or feeling attraction for someone who is different from you. I think that would be great for you. Perhaps not though. As I said above, you've chosen your path, and that means that ours have conversationally diverged.

So you've chosen doubling down. All right then. I have nothing further to discuss with you.

An emotional reaction to Renarin and Rlain's budding romance is something along the lines of, "I really don't like this for them. I don't think It's good for their characters because...I'm angry because I think their story would be better if..." Stating truth isn't impolite. It can, and often is uncomfortable, but it would be impolite to ignore the truth. Especially when that truth is a lived experience of many members of this site. Impolite would would be stating "That Rlain/Renarin relationship is disgusting to me" simply because you as a person "can't imagine kissing a [Singer/Listener] sapient shelled creature." Considering both Rlain and Renarin are representative of multiple marginalized groups, and thousands (if not many more people, myself included) of people see themselves in either or both of these characters, and then comparing Singers to apes (yes it's not the only interpretation, but the fact that many many many people who are marginalized in our society explicitly identify with Singers and or Renarin-which you need look no further than myriad posts on this site stating such to know it's the case) is wildly impolite. There is also the fact that in-world, Singers were made to be less than slaves for the last several thousand years by humans. How is that not a marginalized ethnic group? If they're not marginalized to Rosharans, then what in the Cosmere are they? Why else would Brandon spend 5 books showing the struggle it was for a small group of people (Bridge 4) to come to fully accept Rlain in an equal and equitable way (much less the rest of the humans in Urithiru), if he had not been-and continues to be-a marginalized person because of his race? You are correct that they are a fantasy species, and they are both metaphorically (for marginalized groups on earth) representative of humanity, and literally representative of a marginalized and previously enslaved group of people on Roshar. Impolite would be saying, "Let’s not get into the same sex thing." As if for the queer/non-straight folks who are a part of this site, and the Sanderson fandom at large, have something wrong with them, but "lets not get into it," which for anyone reading this post who is in a same-sex relationship has just been summarily dismissed from the discussion, or at the very least, not made welcome to be part of it because "let's not get into it." Impolite, would be to ignore all of these things, and excuse them as simply an emotion reaction divorced of any meaning or connection to outside thoughts, instead of the prejudice that it clearly is, whether that is intentional or accidental. Because either way, this thread has caused some folks harm who have read it, and that should be addressed clearly and not brushed aside. Because brushing that aside is part of what marginalizes people right here, right now. Bigotry does not have to be conscious or purposeful to be bigotry. It stands on its own regardless. This thread, in part, has not been polite, inclusive, or welcoming to anyone who does not agree with the OP and their feelings of disgust about inter-species dating, and completely disregards the feelings of the people who have long looked forward to Rlain and Renarin getting together, and instead expresses how disgusting that is. And for the record, going from expressing one's disgust of a relationship you don't like to "Imagine kissing apes" to "'love is love' doesn't apply to dating outside your species" to "think of the diseases" is basically a microcosm of bigoted arguments that have been made against inter-racial dating/marriage in America for the better part of the last 200 years. Intentional or accidental, the problems with these arguments remain. They've been made before in history, repeatedly and often, and whether you are explicitly aware of them or not when you repeat those arguments, they are no less problematic for having made them. I don't only find these things reductive, but inherently harmful, and that's why I needed to say something about it, and why I won't shy away from this. Calling out and explaining the problems with opinions such as these, shouldn't be conversation-ending. Also the discomfort, hurt, or pain of folks reading this thread (as these hurtful statement have been directed at them, in what I believe to be an unintentional way) shouldn't be ignored under the banner of "it's unfair to say they meant that/lets be polite." It's not polite to ignore the lived experiences of other people. Everyone makes mistakes. Everyone is missing knowledge in some area(s). Everyone can put forward an argument without realizing the inadvertent damage that it causes. Everyone is capable of change when they are made aware of the harm they've done/are doing. That is an opportunity to continue conversation and learn and grow. That's a path that fosters more and more conversation to learn more about others and yourself. It likewise is also an opportunity to disregard the harm and pain caused to others by previously expressed thoughts/opinions, and to double down on them instead. If that's the path someone chooses to take, then that would indeed be conversation-ending.