JohnnyKaizen

It's too bad that Creativity, Forgetfulness, and Self-Deception aren't Shards, cause she'd have those on lock.

I get the emotional argument of this, but if mass murderers can find redemption, then Moash could. He almost certainly will not, but he could.

Not much, and BS has pretty much confirmed that there is a lot of wiggle room for the heralds when it comes to timelines. There is a WoB somewhere that he clearly says that ancient timelines are wrong, and that we aren't going to know the truth until we see/hear it from the heralds themselves in SA 6-10. So that's all wide open for wild speculation atm.

Moash Spoiler, sort of.

RoW

That is exciting for all kinds of reasons.

Wouldn't this allow windrunners to have hypersonic flight? If they can create a bubble around them that literally shoves molecules out of the way...while also not needing to breathe beacuse of stormlight...wouldn't that cause a similar situation to an edgedancer's speed on the ground, but flying?

Maybe I should start a whole different thread, but I am looking forward to some justice being doled out in Shinovar. I am not particularly blood thirsty, but if the situation was as cut and dry as, "Szeth tried to warn his superiors of imminent danger, and they decided to reject him in such a way as to force him to be one of Roshar's most prolific murderers" ...Well, some folks would need to answer for that. I also realize that we know next to nothing about Shinovar..their Culture..what knowledge they retain that most of Roshar doesn't..what specifically Szeth did, and specifically what the response to that was, and why? All that stuff is in the dark. But damnation, somebody needs to be held accountable to some extent. I also say all of this, fully expecting for BS to turn all of my expectations on their heads about 7 pages into Szeth and Kaladin getting to Shinovar. So, there's that as well.

I mean, his best friend and Captain told him to stand down from his assassination attempt, and instead of listening to him, he vocally stated he'd kill Kaladin to get to Elhokar, and then he tried. And Kaladin burst alight with divine power. So, he betrayed his best friend and everyone in Bridge 4...the only place he had ever felt like he truly belonged. He betrayed, what had become, his entire life.

Well, not only that, but she was actively trying to keep a low profile. And by the time she had zero spoons left, she still fought relatively "quietly" as the only plated radiant on the battlefield. I would think she'd keep that under wraps in that situation.

Some examples are, "Oh, no you don’t, Nightblood said. Don’t even start thinking about that. I’ve been locked away for too long. What does it matter to you? Vasher thought. I need fresh air, Nightblood said. And sunlight." (Page 58 Hardback) -The simple fact that they attempt to give Vasher an order, seems like a big difference to me from SA Nightblood, who is (as far as I can remember) always asking/begging for things? "You lost your temper in there for a bit, Nightblood said with a chastising tone. I thought you were going to work on that. Guess I’m relapsing, Vasher thought. Nightblood paused. I don’t think you ever really unlapsed in the first place. That’s not a word, Vasher said, leaving the alley. So? Nightblood said. You’re too worried about words. That priest—you spent all those words on him, then you just let him go. It’s not really how I would have handled the situation." (page 63 Hardback) -This whole analysis of Vasher's actions by Nightblood seems far more mature than anything I hear them say to anyone on Roshar? They are clearly aware of Vasher's feelings through the bond they have, but being aware enough to offer valid criticism is surprising to me now (going back to Warbreaker after so long, and having read OB and RoW several times). And this is one that really struck me... "Dramatic, Nightblood noted. The sunset? Vasher asked. Yes. You can’t see it, he said to the sword. But I can feel you seeing it. Crimson. Like blood in the air. Vasher didn’t respond. The sword couldn’t see. But with its powerful, twisted BioChroma, it could sense life and people." This feels (at least to me) to be far more contemplative and creative, poetic even, of Nightblood over anything I see in SA. There are other examples, but I think this shows what I'm getting at, for the purposes of this post. I do feel that Treamayne is on to something here. It could be that because Nightblood has been bonded to, just Vasher, for hundred of years...that Nightblood is more in tune with his thoughts, feelings, attitudes, etc? And I don't know how long Nightblood has been on Roshar, or how long they were with Nale? If it was a long time...that might explain Nightblood's tendency towards sounding a bit unstable? That is making me think that there is a lot more to the bond between Nightblood and their barer, than I had ever really given consideration to? But I should have been, because the nature of bonds between the radiants, Adolin and Maya...and now that I'm realizing it...Nightblood and Szeth, is a huge theme of OB and RoW. So, thanks for that Treamayne

I put this in the Stormlight Archive Forum because most of where we see Nightblood, is on Roshar? So, I'm going back through Warbreaker, and Nightblood sounds (at least to me) to be far more astute than they are in OB or RoW. Granted, Nightblood seems pretty interested in/distracted by Szeth (and Lift) so it could be that, but there are a *lot* more comments about Vasher from Nightblood in Warbreaker then there are about/to Szeth? They sort of, poke fun at him (Vasher)..or comment on hypocrisy and other complex thoughts, that I don't feel are represented in their dialogue in SA? Am I missing something about this? I know from some WoB, that Nightblood is/has been maturing over the centuries that they've been alive as they absorb investiture, but their dialogue seems even more self-centered in SA then it is in SA, more juvenile maybe? At least to me. Thoughts? Illuminations? Reasons for this that I'm missing something obvious?

With Dalinar, I am thinking that it's his connection to Honor that's driving the need to prove himself to be correct. He may even be touching the Spiritual Realm enough that some part of Dalinar knows what Taravangian will become? I imagine that Tanavast and Rayse had a somewhat similar arguement over what's best for the Cosmere. Now, I could be hugely overreaching, but that's the feeling I get there.

Yeah, at the bare minimum for sure. There is also a lot of history (that clearly has relevance in now and future of the Cosmere) in RoW as well, especially with Ishar and the Bondsmiths. And, I imagine that will have a lot to do with investiture going forward.

Fair. I just can't shake the feeling that it's significant. But i've been wrong plenty of times before..will be again.

Ok, that is still confusing to me. The pure tones are rarely heard by the Listeners, at least. Raboniel seems to be very familiar with them. If Venli was using Voidlight and created the Rhythm of the two..what does that mean for the investiture she's using. Maybe I just don't understand the mechanics, or maybe this is one of those things that BS has shown/told us without actually telling us?

That's certainly could be adding to it. However, in the Ars Arcanum for RoW, Khriss talks about the stone's willingness to change and to share/teach information to Willshapers and Stonewards, but that doesn't necessarily mean that isn't unique in what she's doing. Based on all the other main Radiants, I am assuming she is. I need to go back and find the specific spot (I was listening in bed and fell asleep, and then forgot) where Venli is practicing her stoneshaping a 2nd time and it seems as though she blends Voidlight and Lifelight? I was sleepy and remember thinking fuzzily, where is she getting the Lifelight from? Which could lend credence to @Nogo's thoughts on the subject as well.

I just finished a re-read of RoW, and I believe there's more to it. There is a common theme between Moash and Kaladin, and Dalinar and Taravangian. They both go about life in diametrically opposite ways. And for some reason, there is a spoken need (By Moash and by Dalinar) to prove to the other person that their way of doing things is the right way. For Moash, I think he wants to justify his desire for ever-expanding revenge, while claiming the moral high ground. Kaladin faced the same traumas that Moash did, but he choose the path of Honor while Moash has only ever wanted revenge. He feels a need to make Kaladin admit that he was right in his choice to betray. That it was the only path. Dalinar feels a deep need to prove to Taravangian that his way of saving Roshar is the better way. Though with them, I'm not particularly looking forward to how that plays out.

You say this, and it makes me wonder..what does that say about Harmony?

I felt a kinship with Lift, pretty much from the first time I "met" her. She does things and acts in ways that I did as a child. I was a weird kid, if you couldn't tell. And life has knocked some of that weirdness out of me through the years. So, seeing some of my former self in Lift, I was always biased towards liking her. And, I think it's important to admit biases when talking subjectively about characters, because they play a large part in why we like or dislike characters. Having known many military folks...that's an understatement

I most definitely enjoy the silly side of characters. There are times when I can see why some readers get annoyed with the way characters speak and/or act, but that almost never bothers me...especially after rereads. Lift's goofiness can be irritating, if you miss how compassionate and empathetic she is. Many times, I have complained to myself about Kaladin and Shallan, because I know where they are going and I just want them to get there faster. They can become tedious and annoying. But, as I read them over and over, there are aspects to them as people that are revealed and/or my perceptions change. That said, I certainly enjoy the strange and the weird, and I don't mind admitting it.

Kaladin has, presumably, always had a connection to Honor..or Syl..or something. He has always displayed certain traits that would take him to the leadership of the Windrunners. But as a child, grown into a man, he was never honest with himself about who he saw himself as, and what he wanted to be, and how he wanted to be it. That's not surprising to me, as making those decisions as a child is beyond difficult. It's made worse with clinical depression. Szeth did his best to speak the truth. To warn his people of destruction that was coming. He believed it with his whole being, and did all that he could to save everyone and everything that he loved from that destruction. He did it in the best of faith, telling the leaders he trusted, and he was told that he was a betrayer. That he knew that he was lying, and that he was evil for doing so. I recognize that Szeth says that he could have stopped the killing at any point, because he was never Truthless, because he could have stuck to his belief(s)..and we still have no idea of the details of what warning he had or why..but it seems like the people in authority, who Szeth had trusted his entire life, all told him he was wrong. I don't know about you, but I would assume I must have made the worst mistake of my life as Szeth did. And by the time he ran into a Radiant..he was already very mentally unstable from all of the trauma. Shallan admits to her wrongs, when she is physically able to see/remember them. Her mind is/was broken with such intensity as very few in the Cosmere have been. She is working through that, but she is not always herself. Dalinar was heavily influenced by the Unmade and Odium claims he was always there, pushing him to worse and worse passions. Venli, when we hear in her mind, would try to remember more honorable thoughts..and her mind would be fuzzed, confused, and redirected to what Odium wanted. All of these people were either directly influenced by an evil shard, and/or their mind and soul was fractured by trauma in drastic ways. That said, there is a whole world that could be hiding in Moash's backstory. Does he have any connection(s) to Odium or the Unmade that we don't know about? Has their been any Cosmere-aware agents working in his life? Is there something unique about Moash (Like there are with all of the primary Radiants that we've seen) that makes him particularly susceptible to Odium? I don't know? But there could be. And BS has shown over and over and over again, that with relatively little information revealed, one's entire view of a person, place, or event can shift wildly. If you found out that there had been some direct influence on Moash his entire life (or something equally as formative), I would think you're view would change. It probably wouldn't be "Oh, Ok, that's cool" like you said...but it most certainly could shift everything you know about him as a character, and why he is the way he is. Would it not?

Now THAT would be something indeed.

Ah, I'm sorry @Letryx13, I realize that I wrote all of that while excluding a fundamental way that I read SA, after Shallan, that is. I don't believe Moash. I don't think he's a reliable witness. I don't think he's got anywhere near the sort of mental health issues that Shallan does, but I have always assumed that Moash never told the entire story. I believe Dalinar, but his version of events was vague, at best. I have always assumed there is more to Moash, because Moash is a liar. To himself and to everyone else. I do think, as I've said several times in the thread and I think you are as well, that Moash is a selfish coward. He most certainly has made terrible choices, over and over and over again. In general, I don't like him at all. My foundational point remains, however. Moash is not beyond redemption. It's highly unlikely that any redemption will happen. But, I won't write off anyone in the Cosmere until they are dead..gone..and don't speak from the grave.

Ok, I don't have access to a pdf of RoW, so I'll do this as best I can. Some of you super-quoters, please help me out with the specific passages. In Ch 67 of RoW "Song of Stones" Venli is trying to