therunner

Hello, I was thinking about living plate and its differences to deadplate. RoW confirmed that shardplate is composed of lesser spren associated to a given order (windspren for Windrunner for example). We see that they can summon only part of it, and are told that it permanently accompanies the Radiant. I had two ideas, one potentially limited to Windrunners, the other more general. We see Kaladin move his plate to others, could he use this to immobilize oponent? I.e. will the plate to them, and lock it in place? I see no reason against this. Could the living plate repair itself not only by drawing in stormlight, but by also attracting others of the same spren it is made of? I.e. if Windrunners pauldron shattered, could the armor fix itself by adding more windspren to itself, avoiding the need to draw in stormlight? Do these seem like reasonable ideas? Or do you have some other ideas on expanded/modified abilities of living plate?

Hello, do we have some numbers, or estimates on how frequent Ferring or Mistings are? I tried looking in Coppermind/Arcanum, but could not find anything specific. Thank you.

Yeah, like @Bearer of Agonies said, the points goes through, sharpened ridges cut up the wall and the momentum of half-ton radiant in plate pushes the cut up walls inward, and being lashed at least twice would make them effectively be 1 ton falling sharpened bullet. Since the ships must store weight they will not put up that much resistance on the momentum front (ships density has to be lower than density of air). Assuming the entire ships has constant density of 1kg/m^3 than and sprenbrella has radius of 1m, if the the Radiant need to push through 40m of the ship, all the weight in their way is just ~125kg (density*volume =1 * pi*(1^2)*40) so lashed Radiant should have no issue flying through that. You could diminish the effectiveness of this tactic by making the outer part of the ship from aluminum. However that might interfere with the mechanics of the ship, or force the storing apparatus to work harder if it cannot store from/into aluminum. From @Frustration I would correct the numbers a bit here. That would be a chasmfied that is 6 times as tall as the length of african elephant, but with their height and width unchanged. Chasmfiend per coppermind are 20 feet wide x 36 feet tall at peak x ~72 feet long, so in metric units 6 m x 11m x 22 m. African elephant would be ~1.5 m wide x 4 m tall x 5m long. In total the Chasmfiend has volume larger by a factor of 4x2.75x4.4 = 48.5, so lets conservatively assume ~40 times. Largest african elephants can weight at 15000 pounds ~ 7 tons, hence our chasmfiend weights at 7*40*0.7 = 196 tons in Roshars gravity, or 420 000 pounds. Of course chasmfiends also attract Mandras, making them lighter than they should be, but even if 90% of their weight is taken by them, they still weigh at 42000 pounds, and Dalinar held exceptionally large one, that was also attacking, with deadplate. Either way, deadplate feat is at least at 2-3 times greater than what was demonstrated by Vin with duralumin. I would assume that burst strength of plate could be even larger than sustained strength needed to support an object. From @The Technovore So if Harmony did not make too many Fullborn (that would make Scadrial clearly victorious) and if we allow shards to produce more than usual number of magic users, I could see Cultivation and Odium teeming up to create ~20 additional bondsmiths. Empowered Sja-Anat could likely force corrupted spren to force spren to bond people of her liking (although this would go against her temperament, but cultivation could cultivate that out of her) to make larger standing armies. Not to mention that unchained bondsmith could remove the oath requirement on surgebinders to get pre-reformed possibly unrestricted surgebinders (Ishar was the one who placed Oath requirements), question is if this would not result in them loosing the plate for example but I am gonna assume that no. All together, they could then field armies larger than any before with surgebinders unrestricted by oaths and fueled by commanding bondsmits for unlimited -light. We should also not neglect Singers, Stormform could prove very useful against metalborn and Scadrian tech (yay for conduction), Smokeform could be useful for concealed attacks and Nightform might be useful as seemingly partially precognitive sentries. Fused will also be useful, with Nex-im (like Pursuer) potentially able to quickly disable metalborn with their teleporting (this might be blocked by strong enough coppercloud though). Even if Cultivation and Odium do not interfere (outside of telling Dalinar how to unchain surgebinders) removing the oath requirement on oaths would help with faster recruiting. However, I am not sure if that would be enough to resist such empowered Scadrial, with the 3-4 bondsmith limit maybe proving to be the Achilles heel of Roshar, as they would be limited to only 3-4 longer lasting battles at time.

On the topic of airships and Radiants, I think better way to attack the ships would be to form the sprenblade into a hollow cone with sharp ridges on top (sort of like an umbrella) and then the Radiant should lash themselves head first at the ship while holding the sprenbrella ahead of them. Due to invested cutting of the ridges and their shear mass they should easily cut through the ship, destroying everything in their path again due to invested cutting ability. I think the sprenbrella would still be withing limits of their shapeshifting, assuming diameter of 1,2 m. On the topic of shooting eye slit from 10 paces, 10 paces = 7,5 meters, eye slits are about 3 cm tall at best. That gives allowed angle of spread of 0,22 degree (~3/750 radians), so if the gun has barrel length of 25 cm, that allows deviation from ideal direction of only 0,5 mm to either side, so the window of opportunity is 1mm in the vertical direction. That is one hell of a shot to pull, if their hands shook from a step of half-ton Radiant they would miss, if the Radiant stumbled they would miss, if the Radiant slowed down by a fraction they would miss. Not to mention that pointing a gun with 25 cm long barrel at someone is not exactly inconspicuous.

So you do realize that pretty much everything in this scenario would not work at all, and is breaking established working principles of Roshars magic right? Also what powers does your agent have? You seem to assume connection, but some weird bondsmithy version, not f-duralumin one. Based on resilience you also assume compounded gold? While pewter allows to ignore pain to some extant it will not make you completely immune to it, but okay lets go with them completely ignoring it. The slit is not there unless Radiant wills it, and approaching unknown threat they would be dumb to do that, so they will not kill them in one shot. Killing Radiant does not leave behind shardblade, that requires willing breaking of oaths (and possibly some other things considering the result of Recreance was unexpected). After a few days even cognitive shadow of Radiant would be gone (most invested beings last maybe few minutes after death). How the hell is he storing pain into painrial? That is not how painrials work at all, they work by amplifying bodies response (they are augmenter fabrials). You cannot just reestablish bond, you would need to reswear ideals, or swear new one (as both Kal and Shallan demonstrate) You cannot just make up oaths, they must be in line with the order (and for cryptics you are mentioning those are not even oaths but truths). Plus they must be accepted, so you must truly mean them in the dephts of soul. As point two, the slit is not there (and what is it with people from Scadrial and perfect aim and never missing?) Bonding a blade =/= bonding a spren, and bonding into multiple different orders is extremely difficult (i.e. no one has done that). Even radiant cannot just shrug off shardblade to spine, they would need to have stormlight in them. Again, eye slit not there. If bonding two is hard, more than two is outright impossible What are you talking about, nahel bond to Harmony? You do know that nahel bond is two way street right? And bonding shards is not possible? I am sorry, but have you even read these books? And if all these shenanigans are possible (they are not), than bondsmith can do that to some random Radiant and any mistborn/twinborn is facing someone with all 10 surges surely (oh, and they have each surge twice, so even more powerful) And the spren has to agree to bond them, you cannot force them, they can choose as they have free will. Shardplate is a lot stronger than even flared pewter. Compounded steel can provide you with near unlimited store of speed, but two things: Faster tapping is increasingly penalized, so to get 2x the speed you need more than 4x times as investiture, and increasing multiples are even worse. Air resistance is still a thing, they will be able to run fast no doubt, but without specialized equipment they are not even breaking sound barrier. With specialized equipment they are limited by various melting points of metals, so to at best Mach 8. Not so much unlimited speed. Thug would have also been unable to perform that manouver at such speed. And if they did break a leg by any chance, they would not heal it in seconds (Kal healed the leg so fast no one noticed). If Scadrial is oh so powerful, why the hell did Odium not try to recruit them for his crusade, like he is trying with Surgebinders? Unlike on Roshar where two Shards were united, on Scadrial they worked against one another, it would have made much easier target for based on your comment a better prize. And one last thing, the Surges we are seeing are artificially bound by Honor/Ishar, so we are only seeing restricted version of them. Allomantic burning is not burning, read the coppermind, it is right there. The word burning in description is purely metaphorical.

How do they have a chance? Outside of guns they have no way to breach plate, much less kill Radiant. To break one section of plate would require 2-3 bullets (most likely in relatively quick succession). If the Radiant was Windrunner they could simply carry shield imbued with reverse lashing to make all their shots miss target, Skybreaker would just need to touch ship to damage it with division.

Since steelrunners are limited by air friction and per WoB would lose on short distances to A-pewter/f-steel, they would not be that much of a problem. Not to mention they have not tool to go through plate (although you could give them ordinary guns).

The more you armor the mistborn and have them carry heavy weaponry, the more you constrain their mobility and agility. Not as much as you would a normal person, but taking away the one clear physical edge they have to shore up some of their weakness (and not even enough to equal the plate) might not be the best trade off. Some armor and weaponry is better than none, but question would be how heavy can it get without constraining Mistborn too much. Pewter will not even bring them up to same standard as Plated radiants, outside of agility where they will surpass them. Tin, I am not sure how useful it would be, if Radiant is glowing it might be a bit blinding to them. Electrum will be the MVM (most valuable metal) for CQC, question is if it balances out speed and reach advantage of Radiant. I would see bendalloy as being more useful in getting into killing range of CQC, and combined with Electrum it could be potent combination. And problem with CQC with Radiant in plate is that if Radiant in plate can hit Mistborn first, they die, if the Mistborn does not completely disable them first, Mistborn also dies, Mistborn will only live if they completly disable Radiant before Radiant can strike.

True, but I'd wager that they are at least a few decades from discovering lasers, so with their level of knowledge I would still put Truthwatchers low. Although if the helmet of the plate could attenuate the light coming from illusions they could conceivably blind the mistborn while remaining seeing themselves, based on that I might feel comfortable bumping them up one degree, because blind Mistborn would have great difficulty killing Radiant (even if they could use bronze and steel/iron to navigate some extent). However, if the mistborn knew steelsight, than blinding illusions would not be much help. When they discover lasers Truthwatchers would be on a force to reckon with and could most likely kill mistborn without any difficulty. Well we have seen Navani do it only in contact with Sibling so far, and Dalinar+Stormfather have odd things around them (Unite them, unexplained visions, Tanavast's cognitive aspect) so I do not feel entirely secure as taking him as example. I do feel it is likely enough that I included it, but not so strongly as to discount the opposite conclusion.

@ShardplateJoe III Awesome graphics! I would point out that while as siege engines Windrunners/Skybreakers are unparalled in cosmere as we know it, in person to person combat happening in ranges of ~50 meters max, lashed projectiles could not achieve their terminal velocities, unless lashed ~20 times or more, which would limit their effectiveness compared to coinshots. But this nicely illustrates that despite their superficial similarity, steelpushing vs gravitation have different strengths and weaknesses.

I agree that the combined abilities in vein of reverse lashings could prove to be very important for the battle. Wow, I did not think division could be used on humans, that makes a big change...altough Mistborn will be invested so they would resist on that front so I think dividing their clothing would be surer bet. I also agree in Mistborn vs Radiant (4th) it comes down on Radiants ability to either outmanouver, outpace or pin Mistborn down, with time being an issues only if it takes more than 30 minuts-1 hour (per Kaladins 12 hour non-stop top speed flight with just the light he could carry at 3rd oath). I am in process of trying to do a match up of all individual orders vs Mistborn, but it is not fully ready yet. Preliminary I think (Win = kill oponent, toss-up = either cannot kill, or requires luck) Radiant Win Windrunners/Skybreakers/Elsecallers/Lightweavers win (soulcasting air to oil, flame both of which are of ten essences and so easy to do, gravitation will allow Wind/Sky to outmaneuver and outpace mistborn to go for kill strike) Willshapers might depending on if they can also use Transportation to effectively teleport around the Physical (come out of cognitive on top of mistborn and stab with sprenblade). So 4-5 orders would win most of the time, unless they made a big mistake somewhere. Toss up If Bondsmiths can generate light on demand anywhere it would be a draw, unless Mistborn made a mistake and tried to approach them on foot. (neither can realistically kill the other), in principle bondsmith would have slight advantage as here the mistborn could be the first to tire out, but they would probably bail before that. Dustbringers if they can use abrasion at least half as well as Edgedancers and have some nets to try and immobilize the mistborn. They could also try to use abrasion/division on mistborns anchors to try and bring them down and toss divided boulders/stones in mistborns paths to wound them, ultimately it would depend on the particulars of the battle and if they can knock Mistborn out of air before running out of stormlight. Mistborn wins only through attrition Stonewards -> can use cohesion and tension to build themselves a small building/cover using tension to strengthen it to unnatural degree, so Mistborn would have to approach them for close quarters combat in terrain of Stonewards choosing. Since in CQC Radiant with plate has all the advantages outside of agility (they are stronger, faster, can heal, have greater reach, reflexes are on par) they would win most of the time. Edgedancers, while they can easily avoid Mistborn through abrasion, they have little in the way of trying to get them out of the air, or force them into close quarters combat. Mistborn would have to be overconfident to try and fight opponent which in CQC holds all the advantages, so their best chance is to take shots at them with coins and wait them out. Mistborn wins without resorting to attrition Truthwatchers, while thanks to progression they are harder to kill than most Radiants, the best they can do to get Mistborn out of the sky is try and confuse them with Illusion, and here I think bronze would show its value. They might also be able to dispel illusion with chromium if they could touch them. Ultimately, unless mistborn makes a grave error they should be able to close in for a kill strike if they are skilled enough. But if progression is strong enough to regenerate what would be a kill strike (duralumin-pewter hammer to face) than Mistborn is screwed, so still a risky proposition, altough hammer coated with aluminum should help with that. Bondsmith without being able to generate light on demand - they have no blade, seemingly also no plate, and so lack Radiants CQC offensive and defensive capabilities. Misborn should be able to kill them even from distance I think, if they target their head well enough.

I read that WoB saying that they would start leeching the plate first which would then suck in stormlight from Radiant. With deadplate that will definitely work as it seems to mindlessly draw in stormlight, living plate there Radiant might be able to consciously deny it, or dismiss it. But yeah, chromium would probably work better than I expected. Ah, that explains the similarity in points 1 and 7. And yeah avoiding using bendalloy could be useful, but they would need to react fast enough. I do not know, I think lashings might have higher upper limit, if you can apply enough lashings at once + you can lash much larger objects than you could push without burning your entire reserves. However at the ranges most of these fights would happen steelpushes are superior tools, especially when fighting human sized opponent.

Good use of bendalloy, but their plans are still limited by ways they can deal damage through plate (so only duralumin pewter, duralumin steel, and nicrosil touch if they get lucky) Warform singers are arguably stronger than pewter burning mistborn, I would assume Fused would be comparable if not better than that. Even just Regals like stormform are stronger than even Warform and Fused outrank those. So Radiants would have experience fighting foes that are stronger than human, and matches them. Shardplated Radiant would probably be stronger than these, but they would also be stronger than the mistborn. The problem with using nicrosil/chromium on Radiant is that you would first have to get through shardplate to make contact with Radiant themselves. If you cannot touch them, you cannot nicroburst them or leech them. Electrum will be a good asset for the mistborn, but mostly as defensive tool. Altough you could in principle use it before committing to attack, question is if the short window would be enough. Either way, a good asset. Steel might chip at stormlight but I do not think it would be enough (see below for reasoning). With duralumin it might be different matter, but they would burn through their vials quickly then. I also think that in mobility outside of Skybreakers/Windrunner also Dustbringers/Edgedancers using abrasion could outmaneuver (or at least avoid hits from) Mistborn. Stonewards could probably easily make small domed building using cohesion and tension, protecting them from ranged attack of mistborn. I do not think the lasting time of Radiants would be issue. Kal at 3rd oath flew for 12 hours as fast as he could just on spheres he could carry. With higher oaths comes greater efficiency of stormlight use, so on 4th oath the same amount could last 13 hours at least most likely longer (I would say around ~15hours). Even if in fight 4th oath Radiant would burn 12 times as fast it would still give them hour of fighting time without holding back. And since plate absorbs the stormlight that emanates from their skin, their efficiency is further increased. This is speculation, but since living plate is formed from living lesser spren, it might repair itself by attracting more of their kind, lessening amount of stormlight necessary for repair. Either way, 4th oath Radiant in plate could definitely fight for at least 30 minutes without holding back at all. And before Radiant experiences bodily damage you need to get through plate first. Mistborn are still limited by their capabilities, but the on the fly planning in bendalloy could help. (but I feel this is just point 1 reiterated) True, steelpushes are cheaper investiture wise, but they are also more limited. I think atium is the true mistborn trump card. To fully disable 4th oath Radiant, they need to first get through plate and then either remove all the stormlight (either through leeching or dealing enough damage), deal such devastating attack Radiant cannot recover (so destroy their head outright) or wound them with Aluminum and leave it in the wound. Outside of waiting them out, all of these require Mistborn to get up close and there Radiants have advantage (strength, reach, ~speed is on par, invested abilities). And while Vin was missing some metals, those who have access to those metals do not have access to atium, so it should be either those metals or atium. Plus Kaladin did not have plate in those considerations either. And Vin is just as exceptional as Kaladin.

Yes I do. He is in the end the ultimate authority, per his statement on battlefield Kaladin wins, encounter not on battlefield, Vin wins. And that is for 3rd oath. I would say it does show something, you are of course free to disagree, but Radiants do have advantage in most regards, espacially on 4th oath. True you did not include Kelsier, only Vin and Zane (my points on them being outliers stand). I included him because he is considered on par and potentially better when it comes to steel/iron and yet he does not even approach feats you mention for Mistborn (true flight without ground support). You used them to support agility/grace of mistborn in general, I countered for why I think these are outliers. Speed bubbles are inded a useful tool to quickly reposition in battle, but are only useful at a distance, otherwise your oponent is in bubble with you. In contrast pursuer could shift into his form and use it to escape close quarters, something speed bubble would not allow, so they are considerably less effective, or more specifically a different tool altogether. With speed bubbles you can reposition from a distance of about 1 meter which should be enough to allow better striking angles, simplifying landing a good hit on Radiant. Of course to land a disabling hit you would need to use duralumin+pewter or duralumin+steel temporarily negating any advantage unless the strikes disables opponent. And Radiant can also move and does not need to stand around waiting to be hit. Well Renarin blocks futuresight of a Shard, I think little atium is of no consequence to him. I do not see why that is silly, he bonded a spren albeit altered one, others started doing the same so he is not unique and with time there will surely be more than the 2 right now. He is not full Radiant + extra, he is something different, perhaps analogous to Twinborn. Obviously Fullborn would win, no one disputes that, I also stated in my previous posts that Mistborn with f-steel would have better chance against 4th oath Radiant, so I agree with you there. It was example meant to highlight that some particular orders (corrupted Truthwatchers) can potentially counter the greatest tool in Mistborn arsenal. First 100*3*15 is 4500, not 35k, so she would need to hit that wall ~120 times, not 15 times. Second applying 15 punches consecutively would not be enough to break the wall you need to apply the pressure at once (of course weakening the structural integrity would work, but that would be entirely different calculation). I do agree that something does not make sense with duralumin, and thinking about it more I do think 20-30 multiplier seems too low. However, the feats suggest that it does not work like straightforward compression (instead of 1 hour at 2x strength get 1 second at 7200x strength) otherwise her hits with duralumin would do far more damage than shown (both in headbutting and in Koloss kicking). I would assume that like with feruchemy there is some inefficiency that causes loss, with the inefficiency greater the more you try to compress it. Otherwise you could have a 1kg of pewter implanted, then burn duralumin and probably shatter the planet, or at least crust and I do not think that is where Mistborn are going. Everything you were writing down implied that Mistborn prepared to fight Radiant, and Radiant did nothing at all to prepare the same. While Mistborn have 16 powers, 5 are useless in fight - Gold, Zinc, Brass, Aluminum, Cadmium..since shardplate resists external investiture rioting/soothing wont work, knowing your past in the middle of battle is not particularly useful, aluminum would just do nothing useful at all, and slowing yourself down in the middle of fight is very dumb idea 2 are situational - Copper, Bronze...useful for either sneak attacks, or locating illusions 2 others would require touch and prolonged contact to do anything - Nicrosil, Chromium 1 just boosts others (duralumin) You are left with 6 metals, 2 of which just enhance physical capabilities of a person (with Tin being arguably a potential weakness) so nothing Radiants are not used to. So mistborn effctively has only 4 tools, steel/iron (which might as well be one when fighting someone with no metal on them, as godmetal would resist pulls), Electrum and Bendalloy. Duralumin could make pewter dangerous as well, but they would need to get close first. So Radiant needs to limit their mobility near them (to negate Bendalloy) and have a way of shielding themselves from distance to protect from steel pushes (half-shard, or living blade in shape of shield should do nicely). So ultimately I would say that Mistborn are more limited in straight-up fight than Radiants are, altough some orders are of course even worse for attacks (Truthwatchers come to mind, but they still have shards and are harder to kill to boot). Speed =\= agility, blocking a big hammer does not take much finesse. Because you know, lugging around something that wears just as much as you and is not particularly aerodynamic will make you less agile. Armor or heavy weaponry will make you less agile, period. And mistborn would need some form of durable weapon to crack/shatter plate. Yeah, but they cannot fly and because they require ground most orders have either a way to complicate Mistborns life quite a bit (tension, cohesion, abrasion, soulcasting), or they will have air superiority (gravitation), this covers 8 orders. True, but your arguments partly relied on superior speed of mistborn, which they do not have. For Kals trip I used coppermind on Roshar + the book (5-6 chapter Oathbringer), for Vin it was map of Final Empire + note on that F city on Coppermind. Because Mistborn will rely on firm anchors to move around, if someone with abrasion makes them slippery so that any amount of force that is not directly from the top will make them move, that will make Mistborns life complicated. Abrasion could do this, as it can be used to eliminate friction entirely. Well you kept talking about how they can fly, I was pushing back on that. They cannot fly outright, and destabilizing anchors would not be winning strategy for Radiant, just a way to complicate Mistborn's life. Lot of Radiant can anchor hunt without moving (tension, cohesion, soulcasting) so they would not give it away making it a surprise for Mistborn. How would attack on armor give them anchor? They could not even push on it at all? Well I disagree with you there, especially if we are talking about 6 feet tall 150 kg heavy hammers, it would completely ruin there center of gravity + aerodynamics. They are still moving through air + use proprioception to navigate, shardhammer is neither aerodynamic nor they have proprioception in it. Since the hammer would be heavier than they are they would most likely be able to only either push away from it, or pull to it, without moving the hammer. So if they left it lying around it would be good target for Radiant. But they won them all, and in most desolations Heralds needed to teach people how to cast bronze and other basic knowledge, they spend most of the fighting with few Radiants and less organized force than they have now. Right now they have multiple fully developed kingdoms, and they are still barely holding on. Ultimately while Radiants are stronger than Fused, there is more Fused + they can come back so they have numbers and experience advantage for most of the time.

The way pewter works for durability is weird, on one hand she can kick Koloss without breaking a leg and shatter Thugs head with a headbutt, and yet she can still get stabbed easily by glass knives.And while she does not seem to suffer ill-effects (outside of being choked out) directly, she loses pewter and is suffering from effects similar to fatigue after pewter drag. And chasmfiend is solid stone, we never see Mistborn do anything close to launching themselves straight through stone walls. Since pewter enhances strength, speed and poise primarily I think any increase in durability is a secondary effect that does not necessarily scales the same way. EDIT: @Bejardin1250 Seemingly that was primarily because the Thug was choking her for a while, she was close to losing consciousness even before burning duralumin and smashing his head.

True, but withering is also described in the WoB as something taking over your soul, which is quite different from having part of your soul separated. I read A-Aluminum as removing foreign investiture from all three aspects physical/cognitive/spiritual, but since shardblade severs not includes additional things into these aspects I think aluminum would not be sufficient to heal it. However burning at time of hit might do the trick for preventation (but good luck timing that right).

I think they would have to burn aluminum when they are being cut to prevent it (if that is possible) but after being cut aluminum would not help them. Burning f-aluminum might do the trick though (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/219/#e7836), but sincee the damage is also in Spiritual realm, maybe not.

True, you need to compare objects of similar density for cube/square to make sense. True, unless they fire a lot of smaller objects, kinda like a shotgun. When did he play locksmith, it escapes my memory?

Hmm, true good point. There might be something going on with cognitive aspects, like body including gemheart being one thing, whereas gem and air being two things and voidlight wanting to stick to one thing only. But gemhearts are generally treated as somewhat separate from the bodies for the purpose of holding -lights, so I do not think that would be realistic reason.

Cube/square here actually works in favor of Windrunners, if you enlarge object 5x in all directions its mass grows 5^3, but its surface area grows only 5^2. Since for terminal velocity mass is divided by area facing the wind, larger objects of equal density fall faster than smaller objects (v~sqrt(m/A), so for 5 fold increase in every direction m->5^3m but A->5^2A, so v->sqrt(5)v, and terminal velocity is greater for the bigger object). In short range coinshot is definately superior, but from distances larger than ~100m Windrunner would fire faster projectiles. True, It depends on how fast you can apply lashings and if you can apply multiple lashings at once. As far as we know Reverse lashings requires touch to maintain. But mentions in RoW about Windrunners of old using homing arrows suggests that there is a way around it.

4th oath Radiant are not extreme case, there used to be hundreds of them, the pinnacle of Surgebinding are either 5th oath Radiants or Heralds with still living Honor. Either way, 4th oath Radiants are not pinnacle of their magic system, whereas Mistborn are (fullborn come from interaction of 2 magic systems, and who knows what such interactions will bring on Roshar). In most scenarios people do not put Kal/Dalinar against mistborn, they put someone in living plate with living blade with some combat training against metalborn, at best they use passive feats ('Fell 'x' stories in deadplate without any harm') not skills. If we did Mistborn have no chance as even 3rd oath Kal could take Vin in open battle (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/4/#e4854 , and https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35/#e5018) and that we before plate and Vin is a prodigy even Kelsier marvels at. Without investing cutting it is still 6 feet long ordinarily sharp blade wielded by someone with superstrength, more than enough to kill Leecher. Hitting them would be hard I agree (altough you could try to use big nets), that is why I consider them to be one of the few that might have a chance with the right equipment. However WoB suggests that under the same setting A-pewter/f-steel is faster in short races than f-twin, so compounding is not much of an advantage. I provided some estimates and detailed calculation, even if melting point of shardplate is comparable to steel the bullet would still not burn through because large part of the resistence comes from the large mass of shardplate. For a single bullet to melt through plate it would need to start melting at around 600 celsius, so on Roshar someone would have noticed that and they might have tried to smelt it already. I do not dispute that it would take practice, I dispute it would be realistic in battle for anyone without f-zinc (and maybe even then). For a single limb you would need 8 pulleys (2 for every joint + 2 for rotating) since you can only pull, just for the limbs (and that is ignoring fingers) you would need to constantly coordinate 32 different pulleys. Add neck, torso, the fact that hands have more degrees of freedom than legs and you are looking at ~50 different pulleyes they need to coordinate in realm time just to move, not to mention fight, that is a gigantic disadvantage. And that ignores the fact that manually walking is hard, there is a reason why robots still kinda suck at moving around on 2 legs. F-nicrosil does not allow you to divide singular investiture, to the best of our knowledge, nothing even hints at this. Why would they not be as fast or as strong, and what situation do you mean specifically? The one with leecher? They do not need to be much faster than a normal person, in fact normal speed is enough (and plate is still 20 people strong at least). 4th ideal Radiant are not outliers (adressed above). Preventing summoning is not the same as negating passive invested effect, the second part refers to weapon which seems to actively use investiture, so like fabrial. Flared is generally spoke of as tripling the strength. The duralumin burn would enhance the power about 10x, so to 20-30x (someone on forum did math on this) but it would at least in part depend on how much pewter they have and how duralumin functions exactly. Either way, someone with shardhammer and pewter/duralumin would most likely be able to shatter the helm and most likely kill the Radiant. Of course Radiant is not just going to stand there and take it, they could shield themselves with blade shifted into shield, cut the haft of the hammer mid strike with blade, run away (they are just as fast), try to dodge or try to catch the hammer. Of course if Mistborn has atium they would most likely land that strike. Most of the things required to kill Radiant require duralumin to work, that would exhaust Mistborn faster than a Radiant and a Radiant can heal a blow which does not kill them. We know that in battle of prodigies (Vin vs Kal) Kal wins in open battle just on 3rd oath, put him in plate and it is not much contest. I would imagine a veteran Radiant vs veteran Mistborn would go mostly the same way. Unlike most flying objects or target Mistborn are used to, both Skybreakers and Windrunner constantly accelerate. Hitting a moving target is hard enough, hitting a target that is at every momement moving at different speed would be harder still. So you take Vin (a prodigy) and Zane (improved with hemalurgy) or Kelsier (even greater prodigy when it comes to steel and iron) and use them as you example of ordinary Mistborn? In that case we should probably take Kal as example of Windrunner, and again per WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35/#e5018) he wins just with blade in open battle. If you put Mistborn some where with a lot of metal they will have maneurability advantage over orders without gravitation, but gravitation is just better in every regard then steel/iron combo (constant acceleration, ability to change directions on a dime, not being limited by presence of metal in desired direction). Again Wax is quite special, even he wonders at his abilities and the other 2 people with his abilities did not seem to demonstrate such skill (no one ever talks about them, outside of one mention by Khriss). I do agree that Vin is quite legendary with her skill, but in all those situations she had ample metal around, and that is the key limitation of mistborn, put them somewhere without all this metal and they are quite frankly done for. Mistborn are more agile, but Radiants are faster and stronger on average and do not risk pewter drag. And edgedancers might yet edge out (pun intended) mistborn as the most agile, as Lift seems to be particularly bad at it (she is envious of other Edgedancers and their grace + the fused with abrasion had no such problems as she did. The problem with Mistborn and Radiants is then when Radiants are on 4th oath, Mistborn is better at one or two things against any particular order, but worse in others. Their only way to properly attack is to use duralumin, but even then they better not get too close as in close combat Radiants holds vast advantage, if they sniped Radiants from a distance with duralumin enhanced pushes that might be a way to go. Kal traveled across almost half the continent (which has size 4*10^7 km^2, based on its shape, it is roughly 4000 km across in the direction of kaladins flight) so Kal flew ~2000 km in half a day. He himslef describes it as over 1000 miles, so we can conservatively go with 1600 km. Distance of Fadrex and Luthadel is less known, however the road from Fedrax to Urteau is described as several months. Caravans can travel at 50 km per day, so 4 month trip would be about 2000 km, Luthadel is closer than to Fadrex then Urteau by ~ 0.8 coefficient (they form a triangle and the longest leg is F-U line), so the distance from Fedrax to Luthadel is ~1600 km, which Vin traveled in one day. Ergo Kal at top speed (~134 km/h) is considerably faster than Vin at top speed (80 km/h assuming she traveled only 20 hours not full day). So 3rd oath Windrunner is faster than Mistborn. Negating atium is nothing to scoff at, and since Renarin interferes with future sight in general it might interfere even with electrum. 2-3 bullets is from WoB, mistborn with shardhammer could break plate I do agree with that, but would they still be more agile or faster lugging it around? Part of their great agility comes from Mistborn being very lightly armored, if they need to drag around hammer that weight the same as them it is going to hamper their agility significantly. And while Mistborn is flaring pewter to just move the hammer around comfortably, the Radiant does not need to exert themselves to that extent at all, so even Vin with such hammer would be even slower compared to Windrunner/Skybreaker for example. But why are you giving all the information advantage to mistborn? Why should mistborn know exactly who are they fighting, with their strengths and weakness? If we give the same knowledge of mistborn to Radiants, they can anticipate what tactics mistborn might use (duralumin flaring with hammers, or duralumin flared coinshots) and prepare accordingly. They could prepare flashbangs (or anything that makes loud noise/bright light) to stun tin burning Mistborn, for example. They could have large weighted nets made to inhibit their movement, equip themselves with half-shards for shields or other things. Also why would the Radiant just stand there and let themselves be hit? In plate they are faster than mistborn flaring pewter and even stronger, outside of the duralumin flare they can outrun and overpower the Mistborn. Not to mention they could block the hammer with sprenblade formed into a spear, or cut the haft, or shape blade into a shield, or dodge or try to wrest the hammer away, they have many ways to try and counter it. Sure if the mistborn lands the hit on Radiants head with shardhammer powered by duralumin-pewter they kill Radiant, but before this happens Radiant has many ways to prevent it. And it requires more coordination than what Windrunner/Skybreaker has to do, and if anyone removes the metal (maybe someone with soulcasting) or moves it (maybe someone with tension, cohesion) or makes the coins slippery (maybe someone with abrasion) they lose that support and lose balance. And if remember correctly the horseshoes were touching the ground Push from shoe on the ground behind you. Pull on the shoe on the ground in front of you and pull on the shoe behind you to throw it ahead). Fly over the shoe that started in front of you and repeat. EDIT: The passage in WoA is clear, the horseshoes/coins do touch ground, to quote (WoA, pg. 675): "Eventually, she had three shoes working pretty well; it helped that the ground was wet, and that their weight pressed the horseshoes down in the mud, giving her a stronger anchor to use when Pushing herself forward." She then adds fourth and fifth shoes, but nowhere does it say that horseshoes stop touching ground. This is not flight, it is magic assisted jumping around. Remove the metal and they fall, move the metal unexpectedly and they lose balance, they still need the support of the ground ergo it is not flight. The coins still have to touch the ground, so not having solid ground would be huge detriment to them or having slippery coins or slippery ground (abrasion says hello). And you are forgetting that Vin did not do this in battle but when all she had to do was move, and even then it required some focus on her part. It is no way shape or form flight, it mimics it very well if you have good grounding points, but you still need those. Windrunner/Skybreaker can fly just as well over a ground as they can over lakes or oceans, mistborn not so much. Not even Vin was moving that fast (per calculation above) at best she might do around 100km/h with the pull/push method under ideal conditions (and I doubt that). We have never seen anyone both pushing and pulling on the same metal to move themselves around, not even Kelsier who was steel/iron prodigy. In principle I can see it (pull stronger than pushing and launch yourselve), but the coins can still be soulcasted away, and their direction of movement is limited by the location of their coins. The black hole part is a strawman and you know it, no one argues that if not shown it does not work. We all agree plate could be broken through with 2-3 bullets, so maybe with 2-3 duralumin-steel pushes as well. Radiants can be killed, even Radiants in plate...most people just think it is very difficult for a Mistborn to pull off in full on battle without assistance of atium. Radiant in plate is stronger and faster just due to plate than pewter flaring mistborn. They have better shortrange offense (blade) than mistborn and can heal themselves. Mistborn with duralumin+pewter is stronger but only for second or two, so all hinges on what they can do in those 2 seconds, if they fail Radiant kills them, and Radiant has more ways to counter pure brute strength attack than Mistborn does. Mistborn catching Radiant off-guard? They have tools to do that, and tools to stop them from bringing their offense and healing to bear (chromium), so there Mistborn could kill 4th oath Radiant. Just how easy it would be depends on how fast they can leech away stormlight. Do provide some examples please, if there is a number of times it happened. Well in story they have two, maybe three people with plate by the end of RoW, so of course they fear Fused who have thousands year of experience and weapons draining stormlight at distance. Without plate mistborn has considerably better chance (about on par I would say, but it would depend on particular order). Vin was never flying around without ground support as far as I know (even the horseshoe trick needed ground). In fact we have seen exactly zero people do that, even Kelsier did not do that and he was more skilled with steel/iron than Vin is. In principle doable I guess, but it still leaves them open to soulcasting attacks. It would also require more coordination than lashing does, so air superiority still goes to Windrunners/Skybreakers.

That the town would be fine is your assumption, it seems Kal disagrees. Also why is it honorable to kill him for a personal wrong done to Kal, when such course of action might threaten others? How would he imprison him if he is about to leave anyway and most likely the second he leaves Laral frees him again? Which Kal does not know. At that point in time they do not know what the Fused are intending do to, and are seemingly pulling a lot of their forces to Kholinar. I would call his leadership mostly competent because most of the town seems okay with him, in fact the only one who has problems with Roshone is Lirin (and his family by association) which as we learn is because Lirin stole a veritable fortune that should have been Roshones. While Roshone was a bad person in Kholinar, and in Heartstone he is cold and unpleasant man, but by no means unreasonable. Even sending Tien into the army was legally his right and he overstepped no boundaries doing that (I do agree that it was immoral), but he could not have known that a messenger boy will die due to his own decision and decisions of others.

If I recall correctly the explosion from anti-void/void reaction happened as it did only because it was inside a gem, so it had no way to go elsewhere. In the body voidlight could move to other body parts and so comparatively small amount of voidlight would react with anti-voidlight. (altough I might be misremembering this)

Yeah, that is what I meant. I was thinking that since Leeching is similar to what Larkin can do, and Larkin cannot kill Fused by draining them (as far as we know) a Leecher would need some extra power to do that, that would be provided by either Nicroburst, or by them having A-Duralumin (either through them being mistborn, having spike, or having A-medallion).

Yeah that is what I was thinking as well. Since Fused operate kinda like spren, I am thinking that what the anti-voidlight dagger did was the same thing Moash did to Phendorana, i.e. it destroyed what is in effect their spiritweb. I think a leecher touching a Fused could drain their extant voidlight (the one they breathed in, or got from Odium directly) but could not get to the investiture comprising the Fused itself without contact with the gemheart, and maybe not even then. Also since Larkin and chromium operate on similar principles I do not think they could kill Fused, as Larkin do not seem to able to do that. Maybe with direct contact with the gemheart and duralumin they could.