therunner

I mostly agree with all of this, I partly disagree on Stormlight being removed (I think it would not, as Stormlight is not Power, but Investiture) and I disagree that any aluminum piercing with Intent anywhere will remove powers. All of Hemalurgy rests on two things 1) Intent, and 2) Bind points, and I simply do not see why should aluminum be special in this regard when there is no evidence for this. So yeah, I think if you can hit Radiant in one of 14-19 locations that correspond to Aluminum, you will remove their Bond to spren as that is their Power, but you need to hit those bind points first. The only on the fly examples of Hemalurgy were performed by people guided by Ruin, not by a person on their own, they tied those people down. So even if you started shooting a machine gun and Radiant were bunched up in such a way you could hit hundreds of them at once, I think you would be lucky to spike one. And of course, the spren could then go and bond someone else, so unless you hit someone of 3rd oath, you have the same amount of Radiants as before. I...said the same thing about lurchers and coinshots? So I do not know what you meant by this. LewsTherinTelescope already addressed Wax's increased mass is not actually increasing his density (or resistance to damage) using both books and WoBs, so I will not address it further. Also three things on your example: I think your numbers are off by a factor of 10, as I have not idea how to replicate them. If he is storing ~50lbs at all times (he can only store when awake), we would get 50*16(usable hours in day)*365(days in year)*40(years)=~11.6 million lbs *hours, so ten times as much, and I really do not see how to just reduce by a factor of 10 (although I might be missing something obvious). Compounding multiplies stores by 10x, so after compounding 5 times he would not have 5 times as much, but 10^5 times as much. You are again neglecting loses from tapping faster, so those hypothetical 5 million lbs*hours would not be usable to increase his weight 25000x for 1 hour, the loss would be something like 10^(-10000), so you would not get even a single pico-second of that weight (frankly there is no time interval short enough to describe it properly). In the future there will definitely be developments we cannot even begin to predict (i.e. what the hell Voidbinding is, how medallions are made, how to achieve FTL with Metallic arts, what spiritual metals actually do, etc.). But as things stand now (Roshar = post-RoW, Scadrial= post-BoM) Roshar has stronger and more flexible magic, larger population, better replacement numbers, while Scadrial has more advanced earth-equivalent technology. The thread was positited as this and then evolved further from that to include total war between Roshar and Scadrial, with the necessary assumption that you somehow place them on the same world and they retain their magic and other useful tools. So if you say "Right now they can't have conflict" you are dismissing both the basic and evolved thesis of this thread. You dismissed all Frustration wrote by saying you "don't agree with [his] interpretation of how the Cosmere works ", which is ok in some ways. But a large point of his post was that all of Cosmere works on the same underlying principles (with WoBs to support that), and that is something you cannot just choose to dismiss. For example please tell me how the above is vague. What creative examples of Radiant powers? Using Abrasion on a boulder? So I went through the last 40 pages to look for examples of metalborn you proposed for direct conflict with Radiant (if I missed any, you are free to list them yourself), I will take just their powers, not your headcannon scenarios of how the situation would go down. For non-compounding Twinborn you listed as winning against 4th oath Radiants: Thugbearer (A-pewter/F-nicrosil) If they can store effect of A-pewter, they can shortly become very strong, fast and more durable, and in such case they would stand a chance against 3rd Oath definitely (except those that can escape to CR, hide with Illusions or fly, there it would depend just how fast they could be and for how long). Against plate it would depend on what the weaponry they have. If they cannot store effects of A-pewter, they are dead, as they are strictly weaker than Mistborn and 3rd Oath radiant could take Mistborn more often than not in open battle. A-Chromium/F-Nicrosil They would lose, as again they are strictly weaker than Mistborn, and any Radiant is stronger, faster and more dexterous. Radiant could easily kill them before this Twinborn could touch them to use A-chromium (as Leeching requires touch). Thug/Steelrunner (A-pewter/F-steel) F-steel is OP please nerf. But seriously, even if they are moving "only" at ~100m/s (which should be sustainable without damage to body) they should be able to take down those Radiants they can reach (with proper weapons of course). Again, some Radiants could escape (either CR, flight or Illusions), and potentially attack them from stealth, but that would depend on details of battle. For Compounders you listed as killing Radiants (either 4th oath, or in CR): Twin Iron They can push/pull harder than usual due to better weight, but they cannot affect Shardplate/Shardblade. Since they can only pull they have worse offense and mobility than Mistborn, so I would see this going to 3rd oath and above Radiant, and maybe some 2nd Oath orders as well (if there was not much metal around). Twin Steel F-steel, nuf said. With good weapons they win, period. Twin Brass They lose? They can only manipulate emotions a bit, and not as strongly as someone with A-duralumin. If Radiant has Stormlight they should not have an issue killing them, even in CR. If they have guns in CR, then yeah they could kill Radiant, but that is the gun doing the work not the Twinborn. Twin Zinc As Twin Brass, although they have a better shot at killing the Radiant in CR (or 3rd/2nd Oath out of CR) due to mental speed, if they have guns (but again, that is the gun doing the work). Twin Pewter If they tap F-pewter as much as they can without compromising too much mobility and flare A-pewter on top of that, they are about 11x as strong as human, at cost of being less dexterous than usual and a bit slower than usually to A-pewter burn. Against 4th Oath in plate they do not stand much chance, as those are just as strong and fast, and much more durable with better offense to boot. Against 3rd Oath, they might take them, if they use F-pewter to launch surprise attack, but they would need to be close to do that, which is very risky for them. Twin Aluminum Yeah, no combat abilities whatsoever, much worse than a Mistborn in combat, so they would get killed. Often in your combat scenarios what was crucial was a gun, not any magical abilities. That is an argument for gun being a good tool in combat, not an argument for given Twinborn being good in combat. So Shallan can kill Kelsier by shooting ray of light at him, per your interpretation? That is good to know, no need to fear the only Fullborn then, correct ray of light is going to slay him. Of course that is not actually possible, as again creating light and creating gaseous investiture are two very different things. So no, neither Lightweavers nor Truthwatchers can actually do that, and neither can Scadrians create lasers of anti-investiture (since creating investiture is not something that can be done, and especially not creating investiture of another Shard using a different Shard, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e1710 ), lets quote the relevant parts

True I guess, but why would Returned be more mortal than others? While regular Breaths are attached more in Physical, Divine Breaths are sufficiently inside spiritweb that they are stealable by Hemalurgy (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/364/#e11389), so Divine Breath would be anchored in Spiritual not in Physical, so death of body should not have effect on it. (Interestingly this (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e14149) says that the consumption of Investiture of Returned is to keep them alive, and if you stole that you would not need to ingest Investiture.)

So there is relatively new WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14623) saying that a sure and replicable way to kill/destroy Cognitive Shadow (CS for short) is to chuck some anti-investiture at them (presumably attuned to the investiture that gives the CS their life). Per in-world information we have the following examples of CS Roshar - Fused, Heralds, possibly Stormfather (he is said to be merged with Tanavast's CS) Scadrial - our dear Lord of Scars Kelsier Nalthis - Returned Threnody - Shades What is of most interest to me, is this: When physical body of Herald/Fused are destroyed they do not die, yet to kill Returned that is seemingly enough. Since anti-investiture seems to have been introduced to facilitate killing of CS (per the linked WoB), I would assume that if you destroy their physical form they are returned to Cognitive Realm, but are not killed. So why are Returned seemingly different? Is it possible that since they require constant influx of Investiture, that when Returned 'dies' in Physical they enter Cognitive but truly die only later on because they cannot get needed Investiture to maintain their life?

Ignoring the fact that everything in Cosmere works off the same basic principles is not an interpretation. You cannot just decide to ignore what the author says (the WoBs Frustration linked) about the basic working of his world. Scadrial does not have automated factories, so those factories still need a lot of workers. They are not as limited as Roshar is when it comes to scaling production, but they need to also mine, refine and transport resources before any manufacture takes place, steps Roshar can side step if needed. What are the downsides to soulcasted material? It is normal matter, there is no difference between it and naturally occurring one, as far as I am aware. It is stormlight intensive that is true, but as Stormlight is renewable relatively quickly, that is a non issue. Off-world that is another matter, but in the same way Scadrial would have not infrastructure needed to build factories off-world. The gems might prove a bigger issue, that is true, however it is hard to quantify just how much of an issue it is. Savantism still takes months/years to get to, and for Radiants it is even longer. In addition, within a highstorm Radiant soulcaster can do almost anything (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/390/#e12723), so with some small cooperation with Stormfather they have quite high potential on production. There is no contradiction, first I listed what aluminum does on its own, no Invested Art needed. On its own aluminum does not turn off investiture or neutralize it. In Allomancy, while burning, it removes kinetic investiture of allomancer, but that is a magical application not just anyone can access. (eg. Just like tin does not make anyone senses stronger, just allomancers), and Chromium does very similar thing, only externally (so it is not power unique to aluminum, but a function of Metallic arts). In Hemalurgy, when applied to correct bind point with Intent, it removes powers, i.e. invested abilities. I separated it like this, to make it clear that on its own aluminum has no neutralizing/turning off effects, only when used to power Metallic arts does it gain some similar attributes. H-Aluminum removes powers, so it is not neutralizing/turning-off investiture. If it was neutralizing/turning-off investiture it should have no problem removing Breaths but they cannot be stolen(https://wob.coppermind.net/events/80/#e5282). It would not remove Stormlight, as Stormlight is not power but Investiture (H-Nicrosil steals Investiture, although what exactly that means is unknown), in Radiant it should remove the bond and as a result the Stormlight would leave the Radiant but the Stormlight itself should be untouched. Why is it reasonable to assume that any of 100's of bind points will do, when other metals require specific ones? What argument is there for aluminum being exceptional? Per WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/202/#e5969) you need to drive a spike through specific point on a body to rip off a specific piece of soul, not much wiggle room for aluminum being special. Since no one in the entire history of Roshar noted effect of aluminum on spren, and Huio discovered it by accident, is sounds like something they do only in some very specific circumstances. The conjoiner fabrial is the only place where spren seem to be affected as such, and it is coincidentally also the only place where a single spren was cut in two pieces (something that could count as very specific circumstances). If you understand that metallic arts are fueled by Shards, why were you talking about "anti-metal investiture", when there is no such thing as "metal investiture"? (God metals notwithstanding) I do not see how this is relevant? Yes, metalminds can have large capacities, but why is it relevant for this discussion, since no one is disputing that? The closest we have come to this point is when saying that even full metalminds are still much less invested than a Shardblade. Again, read this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14623) and tell me where is Brandon saying anti-investiture is applicable only to Roshar. Tell me how can you use anti-investiture to kill Cognitive Shadows (in general), if anti-investiture is a thing only for Rosharan investiture. As you said, Scadrian powers are coming from Harmonies investiture, and everything has anti-investiture, so why should Scadrial be exceptional? Sure, their gaseous investiture does not have form of Something-light, so the process to create anti-investiture would be different, but that is far cry from it being Realmatically impossible. Why would matter X anti-matter annihilation release anti-light? Why not regular *-light? Or better yet, why would it release pure Shardic investiture at all? I would not say 200 times, but Scadrial weaponry is definitely more lethal, no arguments there. But you are completely ignoring my arguments for why it would be difficult to hit Windrunners/Skybreakers, so I do not think they hit them as easily as you assume. Gravitation user moves fast and in very different manner (continuous acceleration and nearly arbitrary changes of direction) than anything Scadrial ever encountered (yes even Coinshots). Not to mention Elsecallers (soulcasting from CR), or Willshapers (dropping on top of Scadrians from CR). Not to mention you ignoring Thunderclasts (what will Scadrians do, when the ground they have encampment on rises up, taking their structures with it?), Fused, Stormform (all that conductive metal near Scadrians), or Unmade (Heart of Revel in the middle of Scadrian high command, that would be something). Instead of saying there are metalborn who can go toe-to-toe with Radiant, why don't you give specific examples you have in mind? I assume you mean some others than those with F-steel. EDIT: And do tell which metalborn could go toe-to-toe with 4th Oath and higher, I am curious about that. And shooting them in the head when they do not know they are in combat does not count as going toe-to-toe. True, but greater numbers (and greater replacement numbers) mean you do not have to be as lethal as your opponent to win. Singers mature about 2 times as fast as humans, so Roshar can replenish their forces at twice the rate Scadrial can, and they already start with population 10-20 times larger. Also different fictional series is not a good argument by any stretch, otherwise I would simply point to Ewoks vs Empire (Ewoks were less advanced than Rosharans, and Empire more advanced then Scadrial, and yet Ewoks took them down). Alright, so if Stormlight is light, that means all Truthwatchers and all Lightweavers can now create Stormlight/Voidlight/Anti-lights, removing the greatest weakspot of Radiants. Not to mention being able to produce any gaseous anti-investiture at will. (In case sarcasm did not register, again Stormlight=\= Ordinary light, even Coppermind says that "Stormlight is a form of gaseous investiture" and the page on Investiture lists Scadrian mists along side Stormlight. So either gaseous investiture is not ordinary light (this is true), or Radiants with Illumination can explode Allomancers/Hemalurgists, Scadrian fabrials and Cognitive Shadows at will. And per this WoB, the light Stormlight is giving off is directly from Spiritual Realm (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6389), so the light in Stormlight is not per se needed for Stormlight to be Stormlight, it is only a side effect.). Yes, he could use storing/tapping to manipulate his fall, but that is not cancelling it. And anyone in the air (unless they have A-steel/A-iron and are near metals) have no way to manouver properly, making them great targets for Radiants flying around. His durability in pushing the train car is not outside of normal human range (or a little). He is not bullet proof when tapping weight, nor stab proof (and Shardblades would ignore that anyway).

I do not think 4th Oath of Windrunners supersedes the previous ones, if anything it turns those Oaths inwards and allows Windrunner to protect themselves by not stretching themselves too much. I would argue that even Skybreakers 4rd Oath is inward focused, as unlike the previous ones it asks them to make some form of judgement themselves (that being the chosen crusade).

Well, since it is possible to forcibly pull them one way (and have them maintain form from different realm) why not in the other? I do expect that the limitation on Shardblades/Plates in CR will mostly hold, with only very un-ethical people forcibly pulling them inside the CR in blade form (and possibly only with deadplates). However, I think that at least some fabrials will work in Cognitive Realm. There seems to be a difference between surge fabrials and regular fabrials, and i think that will lead to regular fabrials being usable in CR (or some subset of them).

So, getting Shardblade or Shardplate into Cognitive Realm is not possible, even deadplate and deadblade do not transfer, with deadblade appearing as Deadeye spren, etc. However, Ishar's experiments prove that there is a way to force a spren to manifest in Physical Realm in their Cognitive 'form', even though they cannot go into the Physical realm on their own. I theorize that it could be possible to do the inverse, force a spren manifested as plate or blade into the Cognitive while in this form. Since deadeyes vanish in CR when summoned, this hints that while in plate/blade form the spren is fully in Physical Realm, hence it might be possible to force them into Cognitive in plate/blade form. It might work better with deadblades and deadspren though, but in principle I think it should work. Of course we know very little of how Ishar achieved his macabre results, so this theory might be completely off base and the process would most likely be quite horrific.

You writing down repeatedly disproved assertions, or claiming we have not discussed points that were in fact discussed is getting a bit tiresome. Economics of warfare were discussed previously (as Frustration pointed out). But to recap Scadrial has advantage in being able to scale production, but they are limited by their population (if they are building/mining/moving, they cannot be fighting), and in logistics (trains, but only in Elendel Basin and centered on Elendel, fabrial aircraft but only SoScad). Roshar has advantage in: production of raw resources (no need for mining due to Soulcasting), speed of production of simple items (food, swords, helmets, etc. more Soulcasting), logistics (mainly on Roshar via Oathgates and Fourth Bridge, Elsecallers/Willshapers supported by a ship in CR -> anywhere, Gravitation for traversing difficult terrain), and finally Roshar has much larger population (10-20 times the size) and parts of their population mature much faster (Singers). Economics really do not favor Scadrial. I do not know where you are getting that Aluminum can do all this. Aluminum does following Resists being invested/affected by investiture leading to ignoring pushes/pulls (Mistborn), gravitation (SA), soulcasting (SA), forgery (Emperor's Soul), healing (pretty much any direct interaction of investiture with aluminum). Blocks flow of investiture this leads to storing Invested liquid from shardpool (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316/#e9233), blocking rioting/soothing (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10821), blocking Connection lines (maybe, since it can shield metal from being visible to allomancer), hiding Rhythms/Pulses (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/356/#e10532), interference effect in conjoiner Fabrials (which consists of a single spren in two stones, in other Fabrials such effect is not confirmed to occur, RoW). These are the only effects Aluminum has on its own. It does not: Repel spren in gemhearts (only fabrials and only conjoiners) Interfere with investiture making spren function (again, the only effect on spren is in conjoiner fabrials) Turn off investiture (no such effect) Neutralize investiture (no such effect, it is inert to investiture instead) In metallic arts it does the following Allomancy, remove all internal investiture (most likely kinetic) of Allomancer. Feruchemy, store Identity. Hemalurgy, remove powers (so no, not the same thing as in Allomancy). Now the only interesting in combat is Hemalurgy, but you need to 1) Hit correct bind point. 2) Do so with Intent. Since human body has around 200-300 bind points (and a lot of them are in heart), each metal has ~13-19 binds (assuming equal distribution). If someone is facing you, you can see only 7-10 binds points for one metal, and at least one of those is in the heart, so good luck hitting them with a gun (since the bind points are not that large, if multiple can fit on heart). So, what you are saying above is wrong, there not dozens for individual metals, there is at best ~20. Anywhere will not do for aluminum, there is no reason why it should be special among all the others, your speculation is not fact (especially when it is supported by exactly nothing). It is not anti-investiture spike, it just removes powers, if it was anti-investiture it would be much more explodey. In addition, Rosharan has no inherent power, so aluminum spike would most likely remove the connection between Radiant and Spren (that being the only power they have, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/91/#e779). However, since Nahel Bond is voluntary, the person and Spren could simply reestablish it afterwards (if Radiant survived). If Thunderclast was destroyed conventionally they could just reform a body immediately. In addition, leecher would not be able to destroy Thunderclast/Fused/Spren since leeching operates like Larkin do (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/13/#e5023), and the only Fused who died permanently dies due to Anti-light, despite Larkin being present for previous Desolations. If it is timed explosive, than it explodes at mostly the same height, Gravitation user can change their altitude by ~50 meters in 3.8 secons with just a Single Lashing, good luck hitting them. Windrunner/Skybreaker can cover 1 km in ~25 seconds under single Lashing, and those of 3rd oath and above can use Spren as unbreakable shield. If they started 3 km away (far enough even Tin eye could not spot them) and then lashed themselves 6 times in direction of Scadrians, Rosharans would reach Scadrians in 20 seconds. Unless they could spot them, communicate that, point the gun in the correct direction (or directions) and fire in that time, they are toast. Or you know, they could simply fly 2 km high with a boulder ~200 kg in weight, get over Scadrians position and lash the stone downwards. To use your phrasing: 'Bye bye hunkered down Scadrians/ships/heavy weapons'. Not to mention using Reverse lashing they could create homing weapons(per Raboniel Radiants of old did this), no need for too large accuracy when you have self-guided missiles. And their range is potentially unlimited since Lashed objects continues to accelerate, it all depends on how much Stormlight they can infuse. No, Southern Scadrial has flying machines, and they are not mechanical, they are magical (you know, using primer cubes). Without magic they could not fly at all, they have no aerodynamics to speak off and are much heavier than air without usage of primer cubes so it primarily needs Feruchemy not allomancy. Since Roshar has magical flying machines, are they also 1920's tech level or higher? No. From what we see in BoM, Southern Scadrial is more advanced in technological implications of Metallic Arts, and based on slip of Harmony they are also ahead at least in understanding electromagnetism (potentially having radios and such), but until seeing more of them we have no idea how much and in what ways. Yes, the premise is that they can engage in conflict. That does not mean that suddenly they got powers they do not usually have, like Scadrians suddently being able to go to Cognitive. All it does mean is that both Rosharans and Scadrians are somehow both in the same place, and they can use their powers as usual on their planet, that is it. Please do mention Rosharan advantages we are ignoring, the purpose of the thread is to try and determine strengths/weaknesses and maybe outcome of some conflicts (whether individual scale, or large scale). If you are holding some new information back, you are not really arguing in good faith. Then use them, I do it too. WoBs usually mention other conflicting WoBs, could you show some outdated ones? So either underwater, or in the middle of a super-hurricane? Highstorm moves at ~500km/h, the wind streams inside it are faster, it moves faster then winds in the most extreme tornadoes! Highstorm is pretty much hurricane sized tornado, not a good point to start your invasion from. Either option is suicidal for Scadrians. Not potentially, they do have smaller forces, by a factor of 10-20 times smaller in fact. Also the thread is Scadrial vs Roshar, not Scadrial and stuff from other worlds vs Roshar and their stuff from other worlds. Should we start including Nightblood, Asterisk and Vasher in our discussions? Or the Change Dawnshard? If so, the fight becomes quite one-sided. You have been told multiple times, by multiple different people then metal is not investiture or invested on Scadrial. So again, metal in Allomancy serves as key, that is it (here are some WoBs saying that: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/74/#e4341 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/357/#e10589 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/295/#e10097 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/337/#e10133 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e6129 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/98/#e856 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/77/#e6839 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/39/#e402 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/358/#e10753 ). I hope you will finally realize the point and will stop making false claims. The investiture powering their abilities comes from Preservation/Harmony (or Ruin in Hemalurgically granted powers) (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6072), and is just like any other investiture, i.e. it has anti-investiture associated with it. Per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14623) anti-investiture is general concept, otherwise it could not be used to kill Cognitive Shadows generally (since Kelsier is a Shadow made of Preservation/Harmony investiture), relevant part: No specifiers that it concerns only Cognitive Shadow from Roshar, just CS in general, hence anti-investiture can be made for any given Shard. If you think we keep rehashing old things, why not write down interesting uses of Radiants powers yourself? No one is stopping you. Some are powerful and interesting, but interesting is not enough in Combat (blobfish are intersting), and most are simply not powerful enough to go toe-to-toe with even just 3rd Oath Radiant, being either slower/weaker/less dexterous or all three. There are exception like F-steel or F-gold with some A-powers, but vast majority is useless in combat, not to mention that Twinborn are less numerous than Radiants. If you are talking about Chapter 7 in BoM, he also does note that it felt like slamming into a wall. Increased mass means the train car will move instead of him. And even a normal person can push/pull a train a bit and get it moving, it is an old strongman feat (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP00VmKx_No). When the train is still moving (like in Chapter 7) it is even easier. When you stop posting falsehoods (light=Stormlight, metals being investited/investiture , anti-investiture being only for Roshar, passive powers of aluminum, claiming Compounding takes seconds, etc.) people will stop replying so much.

The cars Scadrial has are still a novelty item, so still around 1880s. The do not have any flack guns (at least 20 years of tech development needed there), so no reason to consider that. Aluminum is investiture inert, it does not actively suck out investiture (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6364 , you can also see it on Coppermind if you do not like WoBs), so it would do little to Thunderclasts (as those are not really reliant on healing which aluminum would prohibit). Heavy artillery would be more useful against Thunderclasts, but if you destroy one body they can simply make another one, as you did nothing to Thunderclast itself. Scadrial has strictly no way of going in or out of CR outside of Shardpool and they do not know where that is (much less if you could transport heavy machinery through it). On Rosharan end the only usable perpendicularity is Cultivations and that is underwater, so considering that any invasion would quickly end right there. If Scadrians are somehow on Roshar (as was posited by ScadrianTank), then they still have no proper access to CR outside of Shardpool, so unless all the fighting is in Horneaters peak (where a lot of their tech would have difficulty due to terrain) they have no way to defend against attacks from CR. So yes, I assume all Scadrial tech has to be in PR, because otherwise they are stuck in CR and have nothing to do. Windrunners could simply attack machine guns by lashing large stones at them, after softening them up like this they could go for kill. Artillery is not precise enough to help against airborne Windrunners, outside of few lucky shots. Also Lightweaving is 'quiet' enough to be undetectable by Alerters, it is entirely possible that Bronze misting could not detect it, allowing Lightweavers to get close enough to strike. Scadrial barely progressed in the last ~300 years. By end of Era 1 Scadrial has canned goods (~1810), well developed and mainted canal system (17th century, but also much earlier) and knowledge of gunpowder weapons (suppresed by TLR, 17th century). In addition Words of Founding contained hints of electricity and flight. In the 300 years, Scadrial has effectively progressed by maybe ~150 years if we are being generous, they are quite bad at innovation as a culture. In our world, between hints of electricity (~1750s) and radio is 150 years. SoScad seems to be doing better, but we have too little information, and the posited question considered only Elendel Basin. Scadrial has no way to coordinate between CR and PR, so troops would most likely not be there as they would have to split their force in two (which is already much smaller than Rosharan force) and hope they could be in roughly the same spot (so they would have to be on some form of ship, limiting their options). On the other hand I think you are missing a lot of limitations of metallic arts, both in ability and in logistics of them. You would do better not to trust Coppermind too much, there is a reason entire section of forum is dedicated to corrections (not to say that Coppermind is bad, just that when primary sources are available, it is useful to at least check them). It for example has not yet been fully updated with information from RoW, or from new WoBs from December. By relying on it too much you ignore newer developments. On the other hand I would invite you to consider more of Surges and limitations of metallic arts (and what aluminum mechanically does).

Ah, that also makes sense. I am not sure if that would be enough, Kaladin got his spite cut multiple times before he needed a refill. However, it is a viable tactic albeit a difficult one. True, but even slightly damaging them is still an improvement compared to current situation where they have no other option other than Shardblade or Radiants Surges. I do concede that it would probably not be too effective, unless you somehow managed to get the explosive inside the rock. Thank you for the clarification. That Listener tradition is interesting, very honorable. I guess it makes sense that Singers that turned their back on Odium would incline towards Honor again.

I apologize Outside of that WoB I linked I could not see a better source for something seemingly as clear as Stormlight being gaseous investiture. Your WoB is much better in that regard, even addressing where the light is coming from. I will be considering the forces as you suggested them I agree, if you take out Radiants then Roshar has no advantages to speak off. Eventually fabrial tech would catch up (at least in possible effects), but that is still decades in the future. English longbows (mid 16th century) had maximum range of ~300 meters, so around 200-250 meters in the hands of usual bowman, but that is still far less then effective range of a gun. I think if you take away only Radiants, and leave Roshar with fabrials and shardbearers they could still make Elendel Basin hurt, but they would probably lose eventually (depending on how well they would protect their shardbearers and on how much light they could get). If you also take fabrials and Shard, they have no chance. If Radiants can get off-world I think opening perpendicularity off-world as well is a good assumption, there might be a case that what he does is just particular application of his surges (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11492, also Ishar opens one up as well, without being bonded to Stormfather). Below I will also suggest some points I think you neglected, mostly to do with Cognitive realm. I think Jasnah (or someone) mentions there are at least 2 other Elsecallers, but I might be mistaken. You are also neglecting the fact that Jasnah can escape into the Cognitive whenever she wishes (that is how she escaped the assassination attempt), and assisted by Dalinar can easily leave through perpendicularity (had she got stuck there without Stormlight). I think using Jasnah (or other Elsecallers) solely from Cognitive to soulcast away metals, weapons and defensive positions would be a much better tactical choice, as Scadrial has no way to reach them there and they could attack otherwise well defended positions with ease. Good ideas for counters, however unless those bullets are aluminum and headshots, Windrunners could definitely heal from them. Or at least survive long enough for Edgedancer/Truthwatcher to heal them. It would definitely force them to be more careful (or steal a bunch of helmets), but I do not think it would be enough. Since Surges seem to work inside Cognitive, it is entirely possible he could open the perpendicularity from Cognitive. If so, he is nearly unreachable, as Scadrial has no method of traveling there (only Shardpool, whose location they do not have). If he cannot do it, he should drop out of cognitive only to replenish light and for no other reason, ideally in different location each time. With perpendicularity open nearby he is also virtually unkillable, thanks to all that stormlight. In the scenario you propose I agree, outside of lone F-steel compounder (who might not even exist, odds for any specific type of compounder are 1 in ~3.5 million, so statistically in Elendel basin there are at most 3 compounders total EDIT : 3 of any given type, so around ~48 compounders total). I think that lone Jasnah (or maybe those other 2-3 Elsecallers, if my memory is correct) attacking from Cognitive would be much more dangerous, as they could reach targets Windrunners could not and destroy them without Scadrians ever expecting it. When talking about battlefield honor and fair fights ideas of lords, are you talking about Roshar or Scadrial? From the context I assume Scadrial. And I do agree, people were highly resistant to changes in warfare, looking at the horrors of WW1 is evidence enough (many charges against machine guns before they realized that is a bad idea). However, looking at the horrors of modern asymmetrical warfare, I can kind of see their point. Back then you at least had to hear them die, now you do not have to be anywhere near them, so those people do not even get that final witness. True, however they will have to contend with Thunderclasts, and at this point only Shardblades work on them. Had I been in Coalition, I would definately try to look for ways to damage literal stonemonsters and new explosive would seem like an obvious starting point. So I would expect them to start with larger bombs (due to both technical limitations and desired application) and if those proved at least some what effective, then they could be minituarized to hand grenades.

Interesting, I need to pay close attention to broadsheets on my re-read of Era 2. This puts their artillery tech at around ~1880s compared to IRL, about 15-20 years further than I assumed. They do have good cannons, but I do not think you can make assumptions about machine guns, they do have some, but main issue with machine guns is them getting stuck, big cannons are comparatively easy. In that broadsheet you can also read that others mock this nobleman, laughing at the idea of needing weapons of war. If they do not see a possibility of war, why would they keep professional army? Even these ships were built as a private project, Scadrial by Era 2 does not seem to have standing armies (at least in the north where large scale conflict is virtually unknown). Additional issue for any heavy weapon of Scadrial are Radiant soulcasters. Considering how many moving parts weapons/ships like this have, using soulcasting to render them inoperable is relatively easy. Modified glove fabrial Kaladin used could also be used to create what is effectively basic artillery as follows Set the fabrial in desired direction and either attach it to stone or soulcast air into stone/metal. Activate the fabrial (probably by using another conjoiner fabrial to be able to active it at distance). Watch it fly with acceleration and destroy your foes. This design would be limited in how deep wells Rosharans have available, and targeting would be crude, but I am sure few improvements could be done.

Scadrial has a few basic machine guns, nothing a bit of soulcasting could not get rid off. They could hide bombs in aluminum casings to shield them from this, but all Radiants still have healing on par with F-gold, so with enough Stormlight this is not an issue outside of direct hits. Weapon advantage of Scadrial would be something they can use a few times only, before Roshar adapts tactics. Already they had to quickly adapt to the presence of Regals and Fused, so adapting to fighting against guns should not be an issue. So long as they kill 1 Scadrian for every 10 Rosharans they lose, Roshar wins just due to population. Plus they can use fabrials to make primitive guns themselves pretty much right now, and Era 2 Scadrial is still at least 10 years in future. Roshar has unchained Bondsmiths, few people who figured out how to let Cognitive entities leave, people actively working on the problem and we know that Radiants can leave by a point ~10 years in the future. They have all the tools needed to to figure out how to let them leave. You are also ignoring the dangers of Warform/Stormform parshendi and Thunderclasts, those are also definite threats. EDIT: Scadrial has no modern warfare tacticts, since Scadrial has no modern warfare at all. In our world it took one 4 year war with machine guns to abandon the line tactics, and it did not take people years to realize that. Scadrial would have advantage in few first battles, but once Roshar has seen what they have they would adapt. After all machine gun is not that different from a couple hundred archers (in principle of avoiding it), it is just more localized and faster. They are also getting experience fighting Fused and Regals, and a lot of Surges are very effective on groups, so not bunching up would be something they know even if they only see it as something only occasionally useful. Also Scadrial does not really have flack shells, they have no airborn forces at all (what they have are in effect big blimps, flying because they are light not because of aerodynamics). If Scadrial follows real-world they are 30-40 years before they develop any effective anti-aircraft weapons, and flack shells are further 30 years in future. That is almost 70-80 years from RoW, by then Roshar will be very different place. Plus Radiant is much smaller than airplane and more maneuverable. Roshar has all they need to make grenades however, all they need is a way to automate process of drawing light from one gem into the other. The second they have that, they have bombs, if you miniaturize that, you have grenades. Again, Scadrial cannot make anti-light, because regular light has nothing to do with Stormlight/Whateverlight. Please do quote Brandon on aluminum being anti-investiture tech, since he quite specifically said that aluminum does not necessarily negate magic (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/370/#e11798 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/219/#e7942 ), what it does is interact oddly in most magic systems compared to other things. All Investiture is wave based, more specifically, coding of all investiture is wave based. Ruin and Preservation have pure tones. It might not be as immediately obvious as on Roshar, but just like metals have some effects even in other magic system, so do Rhythms on other planets (or colors like on Nalthis for that matter). There is nothing to disagree about, you are wrong. Navani needed Stormlight/Voidlight to work on her experiments (and to actually make anti-light) + Pure Tones (what you need to create Anti-light) are not frequencies but Rhythms, just take a look at Coppermind (https://coppermind.net/wiki/Rhythm#The_Pure_Tones). Light of some frequency will do nothing at all to Stormlight/Voidlight etc. , remember that Stormlight and Anti-stormlight have the same Rhythm just phase shifted. Do you know what you get if you phase shift a photon? The same photon, nothing changes. So again, stormlight = gaseous investiture (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103/#e1023 , or check the Coppermind), light = photons, not investiture. You seem to be repeatedly confusing real world meaning of words (burning, light), with their magical meanings inside Cosmere ('burning' metals in allomancy, Storm-'light'), which makes for a frustrating discussion. Just because they are the same word, does not mean they are the same thing. Again Aluminum does not necessarily counter investiture, it just ignores magical effects/does weird things (look at the WoBs above). And Fused use it because it is the only thing they can get in large amounts that cannot be cut by a Shardblade like a butter. Aluminum does not disrupt, it ignores or modifies. The effect seen in conjoiners is interesting, but so far only happens there, and conjoiners have cut a single spren in half, so they are a bit extreme. Spren outside of conjoiners do not seem to have aversion to aluminum. If Aluminum was as effective as you are saying against Shardplate someone would have noticed over the last 2000 years since Recreance and it would be a standard weapon against Shardbearers. It isn't, hence its effect cannot be as extreme as you are saying. It will ignore the magical aspect of Shardplate resistance, but not the thick and hard metal itself. I put that WoB there to show that Wax does have some increased ability, not to support the point but to contrast two different pieces of information on this particular topic. If you would read the passage from WoA with Sazed, you would see he does nothing like what you are claiming, quote (WoA, pg.679): This is quite explicit, without his pewter he would not be able to stand after tapping his ironminds, hence there is some upper limit beyond which you tap too much and your body cannot keep up. The interaction idea is interesting, however to get appreciably heavier he would need to use up more of his strength then what he stored due to losses, so they would be heavily limited by stored strength. And the issue with pewter is not that he is slower due to bulk, it is that at some point the muscles are too large and prohibit movement. I think it would work to get larger amount of mass fast, and some better amount of speed but not drastically so. Exponentials are fast yes, however even the most invested metalminds (BoM) ever seen created by a Compounder/Fullborn-like person are not as invested as a single Shardblade, much less Nightblood. To put it bluntly, when it comes to amounts of investiture, Scadrial is lightweight, most other major Shardworlds push around much greater amounts. You are also completely forgetting that to Compound, you need to burn the metalmind (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/98/#e851). To burn flakes of metal (10s of grams, if we are being generous) takes hours, to burn a single metalmind would take days. And to compound you need to do it repeatedly, with possibly larger amounts of metal each time. So no, six compoundings would not take minutes or seconds, it would take two weeks or more. And even then, full metalmind is still much less invested than a Shardblade(https://wob.coppermind.net/events/217/#e7299), much less Nightblood So yeah, if someone sat around for decades doing nothing but Compounding, they might have enough to open a perpendicularity, maybe. Since stealing in Hemalurgy using Nicrosil requires for the power to be in spiritual Realm (so Breaths might not be stealable), and F-nicrosil is spiritual metal, they might have little ability to affect investiture that is in Physical Realm, so all lashings for example, or Stormlight that is not inside them. And you are forgetting that all Feruchemy does is store Feruchemists attributes, not those of stuff around them. If they cannot store weight of their clothes, or speed of train they are sitting in, they cannot store Investiture that is not in them (spiritually), so no storing of Lashings. Thugs can fill only F-pewter, F-gold, F-steel, maybe F-brass (unless the resistance to temperatures is due to enhanced health) and F-nicrosil (but so can anyone), so not much universal donors. You are describing how the powers enhance the individual, that has nothing to do with the powers themselves being suited for teamwork. Of course a more capable person will be a more useful, but that has nothing to do with team. Also bendalloy bubble randomly deflects bullets, you cannot really fire accurately from it, even Wax pulled it off only once. Everything you listed has little to do with helping team. Metallic arts strengthen individual greatly, but have little in ways of directly supporting others, unlike Rosharan Surges where over half is directly applicable to others to help them.

Armored person in SotD 2 was heavy because they were wearing shardplate, that thing weighs at ~650 kg in Roshar's weaker gravity (per tWoK), on world with standard gravity it would weigh nearly a ton. So no need for stormlight to become heavy . You are forgetting that unlike any metalborn, Radiants actually fought in full scale wars for hundreds of years, maybe a millenium. And we have yet to actually see the most martially oriented order (Stonewards) fight in groups. Metalborn (mostly misting really) are trained for small group fights at best, Radiants are trained for fighting large scale battles (so not really individual fights) and wars of extermination. Roshar has much larger population than Scadrial, Scadrial is the least populated of the major Shardworlds (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3466), it is entirely possible that for each Metalborn you have at least Regal or Fused, and for each Twinborn you have more than 1 Radiant (assuming all spren bonded). And Roshar also has WMDs (if they produce enough anti-light), and equivalent of bunker busters (kinetic weaponry driven by surge of gravitation). I will no longer argue whether F-steel actually makes burning effect stronger, I do not think either of us will convince the other. I still maintain that it burns faster only relative to people around them (akin to people burning metals inside Bendalloy bubble) and since B-bubbles do not make people inside stronger, neither will F-steel. However, duralumin most definitely does not increase range. I am in the middle of my re-read of Mistborn (currently in middle of HoA), and in the jump across valley she merely pushed at something nearby with duralumin enhanced push (so no need for greater range) and in all other of her uses she never notes that she affects metal farther away then usual, her pushes are just stronger and the range on which she can affect metals remains unchanged. Also Vin states that without duralumin+pewter, her duralumin-pushes/pulls would crush her, so even if F-steel enhances pushes/pulls the user would crush themselves. It is more complicated than that, however gravitational acceleration on object is independent off objects mass, so increased weight alone would do nothing to the lashing. Gravitational lashings have no correlation to weight of object (outside of consuming more stormlight to sustain), per WoB(https://wob.coppermind.net/events/463/#e14664) lashing overrides gravity and the object is then pulled in direction of fictitious supermassive object (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e14101). So since gravitational acceleration does not depend on mass, any object no matter how heavy, will experience the same acceleration when lashed. Wax or Sazed are still affected by gravity, so to have F-iron user not be affected by lashings just because they increase mass does not make sense. It is possible that in future Brandon will reveal that these two magic system interact in some non-trivial way, however so far there is literally zero evidence for that. F-iron makes you heavier, Lashing changes the direction you fall in, that is it. I would also point out that F-iron users do not (or should not) have unlimited increased ability to handle their increased mass, there are points were their tapped mass is too great for them to support it (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11569). In WoA when Sazed is holding the gate, he needs to tap F-pewter to remain standing because his muscles are not strong enough to handle the increased mass from F-iron (WoA, pg. 679). However it seems that Brandon either forgot that, or that in Era 2 feruchemy works a bit differently because Wax does not seem to be limited like that, or it is possible that Wax never really tapped that much while standing for it to be a problem. However, since per WoA it seems that limit on tapping mass before being crushed into ground is lower than the strength of frozen ground, I think Iron compounder would crush themselves before they would crack stone. Burning of atium was in order to temporarily slightly weaken Ruin (that investiture eventually returns to Ruin in usable form, it might just take some time) so that Preservation could destroy Ruin (or Ruin's vessel more specifcally) without being destroyed first. Also, power (therefore investiture) of Shard is infinite (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256/#e8702), nothing TLR could do would prevent Well of Ascension from refilling, or Atium from condensating (destroying the pits would just temporarily halt it). To control Kandra in era 2 you would definitely need a team of allomancers, even in Era 1 it required duralumin. Using nicroburst is also a valid option. Lord Venture was also drugged up narcissist and paranoiac and even then all duralumin+soothing did was make him stumble. Sure it scared him because he did not expect her to be so powerful, but it did not really seem like something debilitating (it was just a short burst after all). Aluminum is investiture-inert, not investiture negating, that is only its internal Allomantic effect. At best it would prevent invested healing, but it might not be enough to kill them as aluminum weapon in wound is not enough to prevent Return (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6364) and for extreme healing spiritual aspect takes over (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3535) so the wound would remain but the person might stay alive despite it (possibly crippled however). Also, Fused use aluminum to be able to parry shardblades, not to penetrate Shardplate. Shardplate is still quite thick physical armor, the only advantage aluminum would have is that it would ignore some magical properties, but not the physical ones. And again on the light thing, the only thing Scadrial can make are ordinary lasers, those are not made of Stormlight/Voidlight/Lifelight, so it will not annihilate it. Gaseous investiture may give off light (photons) but it is not made of them. So Scadrial cannot create antilight, not without getting their hands on some Stormlight/Voidlight/Lifelight first. To sum up Stormlight/Whateverlight = pure gaseous investiture of a Shard, like mists -> not made of photons. It has anti-particle/anti-investiture in the form of anti-light, which so far requires the *-light you want to negate to create. From Radiants only Bondsmiths can produce whateverlight. Physical light = bunch of photons. Boring, they are their own antiparticle and do not even annihilate one another (they do not directly interact at all actually). Even non-Bondsmith Radiants can create it. You said the could use it counter Radiants escaping to Cognitive realm, however unless they can do it as cheaply and easily as Radiants, Radiant could simply hop back to Physical and leave Compounder stranded. So if it is not easy as you are saying now, it is not really viable combat strategy. Unless you are seriously saying that compounder could be more invested than a Vessel, than Nightblood would not be satiated after eating compounder. Eating Vessel did not make him enter food coma (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/452/#e14511). TLR was also nearing limit of what atium compounding could do, so he would die soon afterwards anyway. And anyone with enough Stormlight (so probably near perpendicularity or inside Highstorm) could survive decapitation as well. TLR also might not have been capable of opening perpendicularity, I think that is much simpler explanation. Without fabrials all of Feruchemy is internal, so not group enhancing. The powers are not group enhancing, you can just make a tool and give it to every individual group member, that is no different from sharing food rations or oxygen. And even if you had unsealed metalminds for all these metals you would also need at least one compounder for each so that you would not run out fast. F-Nicrosil stores internal investiture, not external investiture attacks. Even storing your own internal kinetic investiture is not confirmed, so storing direct investiture attacks is quite far from what we know. And you can easily work around it, just use Division on their clothing/surrounding or Soulcasting on air around them, they cannot take that investiture. A-nicrosil would be good for team, I forgot about it. For offense, well you need to touch your opponent first, and your opponent might have armor which makes your power useless. And they have sword that is over 2 meters long, and can become a lance over 4 meters long, good luck getting through that without F-steel. Surges work, and Stormlight trapped in gems still remains there. I think basic fabrials would remain working, but Surge fabrials would not. In fact since Navani seems surprised that in Cognitive realm Surge fabrials manifest as 'frozen' spren, suggesting that ordinary fabrials do not look that way. Shards would not manifest, so that is a disadvantage to Radiant, but they can still use Stormlight to manifest items, something Metalborn could not do. That is why I did not suggest using Division, but other more defensive Surges (Cohesion, Tension, Illumination and Progression all of which can be used to help others without need for fabrials, unlike Scadrial applications which require unsealed metalminds to be group usable). Soulcasting is also very useful surge for cooperating, you can heal poisoning, provide food and basic materials. The only Order that seems to favor honorable fights are Windrunners (remember that Jasnah directly advocated for genocide), and even then only when enemy is willing to play by the same rules. So unless Metalborn agreed to fight duel style (like Honorable Ones), no duels would take place. If we go by what we see in books (in both cooperation and in combat) then Scadrial does not come off good, in Era 1 Mistborn rarely fight anyone on their level (other Mistborn, Inquisitors) and never fight in large battles in groups with other magic users (end of HoA notwithstanding). By Era 2 they are not really fighting a war at all, only in policing skirmishes, so again no protracted battles. Contrast with Roshar, where we see Shardbearers being used intelligently to break enemy lines (so used tactically), Edgedancers heal wounded in the middle of battle and by RoW Radiants are fighting in groups using group tactics (unless challenged by Honorable ones).

And I thank you the same. While actively burning they Scadrians do have some investiture, but even than it is per Brandon almost none (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/444/#e14328), while Rosharans have both the direct connection to spren (which still does not count for too much) and also are more invested than Scadrians when they hold stormlight. In the WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14623) Brandon never talks about anti-light, only about anti-investiture, and how it is important resource for Cosmere going forward. Second, Brandon likes to stick to basic principles of real world physics (you cannot get something for nothing, action-reaction, etc.) so to how anti-particles only for some, but not all investiture (when all investiture is the same, outside of 'charge' of Shard) does not make sense at all. Ultimately, all investiture comes from Adonalsium, so if some can have anti-investiture, all kinds can. To create anti-light you need Vacuum (Scadrial can get this) Light of the shard you want to negate (Scadrial will have great difficulty getting this) Knowledge of nature of investiture (Scadrial yet does not have this, they know very little of Realmatics compared to other worlds) Basic knowledge of waves (Scadrial has this, or should have) Intent (Scadrial can have this) If we are considering Scadrial going to war against Roshar, they have very little opportunities to gather Storm/Void/Life-light (and no technology to draw it away and store it, only to dissipate it via chromium) so they could not make anti-light even if they had Realmatic knowledge of how to do so. They could try to steal infused gems, but depending on travel time light might dissipate before it would do anything useful. The faster burning with F-steel is in Coppermind, and the linked WoB says pretty much the same thing (with the additional information of likening it to Bendalloy bubble). I think that they would burn faster relative to other people around F-steel user, but the metal would not have increased effect (like when you are flaring) because to the F-steel user it still seems the same as he is also sped up. Flaring steel/iron (i.e. faster burning) does not change your range or improve your metal sense, it only changes with how much force you can push, so F-steel would not help with range/sense and in my opinion also not with strenght. F-Iron would definitely help when it comes to anchoring, the weight of allomancer is important when pushing/pulling. However, the weight of allomancer has nothing to do with range/sense, and only indirectly with power (there being more mass behind the push). I am not sure if Intent would be needed, they do not have powers that would allow them to create perpendicularities (like Dalinar or people with Surge of Transportation). Compounders would have to brute force it by putting enough investiture in one place to forcibly pierce the realms, which is something we have never seen anyone do, as Dalinar might have used his Surges somehow (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11492), and Elsecallers/Willshapers have power explicitly designed to do this. In addition, even the most invested object in Cosmere (Nightblood) is not invested enough to open/be perpendicularity, and I just do not think even Compounders could easily attain such levels of Investiture (as Brandon feels limitation are more interesting than strengths when it comes to magic). Also Lord Ruler should have knowledge necessary, as remembering 'put a lot of magic fuel in one place to travel to other realms' is not that difficult and he did Ascend temporarily. Gravitational acceleration is unaffected by mass of object being accelerated, so if you put a single lashing on a person, and then that person becomes twice as heavy they are still lashed with single lashing (and are still accelerated exactly the same way). It would make the lashing wear of faster, but it would still be there and it would still be equally strong. Cohesion cannot be applied to humans, so you can only use it on terrain/objects, and there it would work fine (and in fact be very useful when setting traps for Iron compounder). Adhesion would probably still work, as it works more on spiritual principles (and most materials would break themselves first before disrupting the lashing, per Ars Arcanum), so it would most likely just run out faster again (but maybe not, I am not sure if we have seen Full Lashing applied to heavy objects). Well of Ascension is a tool designed by Leras to help someone temporarily Ascend. It can seemingly be used only when it refills, not sooner (otherwise Lord Ruler would not have to wait full 1024 years to undo his mistakes, 1023 year and 6 months would be surely enough), so he would not be able to drain it or the pits. Using god metals to create new metals is known and real possibility. (although for off-world metals metalborn would need some Connection to the Shard in question before using the god metal or its alloys), some WoBs (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/9/#e7624 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/398/#e13226 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e5905 ) There is still question of who could use such metals, if it would be only Full Feruchemists and Mistborn, or if there is a way to give ability to use these metals to others as well (after all there are no Mistings/Ferrings of these godmetal alloys, Leras had to manually modify Allomancy to allow Atium mistings). Well, Zane would have also been burning Copper so he would be immune anyway. And TLR is really not a good example, he was Fullborn and a Sliver, not your everyday compounder. You are also forgetting that Radiant in plate would be completely shielded from emotional allomancy, so it is useful only against those on 3rd Oath. For Singers, the spren in their gemhearts would probably help override emotional manipulation because Rhythms do act on emotions as well. In am not sure if I see how Scadrian abilities are more suited for work in groups, the only powers they have that can help others (discounting fabrials) are Rioting/Soothing to bolster morale, Bendalloy to help quickly reposition and Cadmiun to help wait (but its usage could be risky). Unkeyed/Unsealed metalminds would be useful when used in conjuction with a Compounder to provide various attributes as needed, so those would help. On the other hand, Radiants can use Tension to improve non-invested armor/weapons, Cohesion+Tension to manipulate terrain (providing advantage to their allies), Gravitation for transportation, Progression to heal non-invested allies and Illumination to bolster allies (like Shallan did). This is all before taking into account fabrials or surge fabrials. I personally see it that in far future Scadrial is more mercantile power, as they have the most advanced non-magical tech which is usable by anyone without need for special fuel. This gives them great economical power. Roshar on the other hand I think would be more martially oriented I think. As a result I think that while martially future Roshar could beat future Scadrial on their own, Scadrial's economic advantage gives them allies (or vasalls) to call upon. It would also not make much sense for Roshar to go in direct war as the economic cost would be too great.

For me even revealing that this would happen at the end of first half of SA is a bridge too far when it comes to spoiling other series, but that is just my opinion.

SA

Because Odium is bound to Rosharan system, unlike Honor/Cultivation? If Odium could create a splinter that is of sufficient size to present trouble to Harmony and can create godmetal, and such splinter could leave the system, than the bounding is not particularly effective.

Odium as whole is bound to Roshar, even splinter escaping would spoil a plot point of unreleased book and I simply do not think Brandon would do that. However, we are all free to believe as we wish, so I will not argue this further. Kelsier and Autonomy had dealings? Interesting. On topic, I am also very curious if the Lost Metal will end up being old-school atium, or if that is what the characters think it is but it ends up being something new. Kind of like when they thought BoM was artifact of Lord Ruler but it ended up being something new instead.

I think the fact we will learn who Trell is immediately ensures that Odium cannot be it. It would spoil a plot point of fifth book of Stormlight Archive if Trell is Odium and I do not think Brandon would do that. My money is on Autonomy (or Avatar), a splinter of Ruin or something like a split part of Sazed.

Huh that is odd (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/5/#e3236). Elsewhere Divine Breath is explicitly likened to Honorblades, i.e. it is actually a sliver of Endowment (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/10/#e6539), and you cannot even transfer it like normal Breath (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/362/#e11165), so it is surprising to me you could store it without dying. And I do not think you could compound it anyway, because you would be trying to recreate entire sliver of Endowment, which is a bit problematic if you have access to only Preservation investiture. Per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e1710) This WoB quite clearly states that using one shard investiture to create a splinter of another shard (as spren are splinters) is not possible, hence compounding Divine breath would most likely not work at all. Plus we do not actually know what compounding Nicrosil does. Dakhor explicitly does require blood sacrifices to create at least some effects (possibly all of them), teleportation requires it (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/133/#e2206), as does Aon immunity (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e1742). If to access the more powerful abilities you need to keep killing people, your strategy is not sustainable. So AonDor is superior choice in this regard. That depends on how precisely using your innate abilities works. Burning forged metals breaks the forging, but if trying to access power that should be there would do the same is unknown. If not changing mistborn to misting, than changing a kind of misting should be relatively easy for Forging (provided they knew enough to write down proper stamp). I would assume it is not as easy as this comment would imply. Ire had orb that would allow them to take up Preservation, why did they not simply pick up Dor? It was closer after all. Considering how much trouble Raoden had with Dor (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/133/#e2154) when he started using it more, I think almost anyone trying to take up Dor would be killed before the process could complete. Yes, there is some upper limit on number of Elantrians (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/173/#e8617). Broken, but to unlock them you need to Learn how to do hemalurgy without killing the subject first (no one can do this at the moment, even Sazed after ascending assumes that death is actually necessary). Have incredibly large stores of health on hand (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e14304), so that would require time to prepare such stores. Maybe be F-gold savant, as Brandon in WoB mentiones 'turning someone like Miles' into spike factory. Allomancy getting weaker is not irrelevant. For starters distilling mists now would either give you Harmonium (which does not make people into allomancers, in fact ordinary people could not ingest it due to its reactivity), and if there are two kinds of mists and you can distill them separately they would still not give you Atium or Lerasium, simply because neither Leras nor Ati are Vessels anymore (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e6242). This WoB suggest that (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/373/#e12055) any new Preservation-metal would no longer be Lerasium. And this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/374/#e12145) shows that from mists you would get something different. Also Scadrial has very little means to manipulate investiture directly, prohibiting their research in this area. So, C-gold differs from F-gold only in magnitude of stores involved, and stormlight can heal the same kind of things as F-gold (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6336) with only minor difference per WoB. Stormlight could easily heal bullet to the heart, considering it healed arrow through brain, per WoB it can heal almost anything (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116/#e4788). Decapitation might still be healable for Radiant if they had a lot of investiture in their head, or were near perpendicularity (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3535) as it works like F-gold, and is mostly limited by stores. I was very hard trying to forget that, because even the one confirmed Dawnshard would be 'I win' button for Roshar in hands of Bondsmith. If desctruction of Ashyn was possible only with Dawnshard (which is not actually confirmed, it might have simply been unrestricted surgebinding) than Roshar is the only side with literal planet killing weaponry. Thank you. Good point on BAM, I completly forgot about her. That makes 7 sources of *light Roshar is relying upon. Good point on Dakhor, however we have only seen them disrupt Aons in the making, not functioning ones no? Though if it works by disrupting Connection, than it would be a very useful tool, maybe even worth those 50 sacrifices. I would note that AonDor could replicate that, even if not as well (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/166/#e3014).

Invested healing in general does not require immune system or anything like it. If they are healthier because they are slightly invested due to all the investiture flying around, then that health is one associated with aligning spiritual and physical aspects, not due to immune system. Spiritual ideal is one without illness, so it can be enough to prevent its development or at least hinder it.

It does seem Nightblood is something more than usual, first because of how the other invested sword acts (although that might also be caused by different Command) and second because of this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10871) which implies that Endowment took a bit more direct hand than usual in Awakening of Nightblood. So below will be my analysis (presumably limited one, so please feel free to correct/supplement me). I will stick to the planets we know off, so I will ignore Aether planet and Taldain, and I will also assume no direct Shardic influence. Nalthis So, I think Nalthis will not be a major player for three reasons: Their invested art is geared mostly towards manufacture, not combat. Even Kalad's Phantoms would easily fall to Radiants, especially to those with Soulcasting (only the bones are invested, not the stone), though they would fare better against Scadrians. Also per WoB above Nightblood seems to be a special occurrence in some sense. They have no healing capabilities outside of using up Divine Breath, which greatly limits them compared to all three of Roshar/Scadrial/Sel. All great feats of Awakening (i.e. awakening stone/metal, not requiring touch to awaken) requires at least 20 000 breaths for the Awakener and hundreds to thousands of Breaths for the material being awakened. That is quite a lot of people you would leave essentially handicapped to create one weapon. The point 3 above could be partially circumvented if they created a culture were you give up your Breath before dying, and they you could start building up a stockpile of Breaths, however Returned (and possibly more strongly awakened weapons like Nightblood) will be eating up that stockpile a bit. In addition they are also limited by presence of color for active act of Awakening, again limiting them as their surrounding could be manipulated by their opponents. (Now I am imaging Awakener carrying color dust bombs with him to make sure there is always color around when they need it ) Generally I think that Nalthis would excel in more a support role, Awakening could be used to quickly set up automated factories that could be relatively quickly reconfigured as needed, and they could mass produce invested weapons for more those who are more survivable in combat (so Elantrians/Radiants/F-gold wielders). Lifesense would also be useful for sentries, however Copperclouds interfere with it so it can be circumvented. Sel So here we have quite a lot of systems, but we have mostly seen AonDor, Dakhor and Forgery. I will ignore Dakhor, as it seems to quite inefficient as it requiring blood sacrifice for anything, which makes it quite inferior compared to power and flexibility of AonDor. Forgery I think would be best suited for support, such as healing, quickly fixing up damage (or at least mitigating it) and maybe also in some more covert combat to remove invested abilities (Forging someone to break bond with spren, maybe forging mistborn into misting at least temporarily?). AonDor however I think would be the main weapon of Sel, as AonDor is in effect a programming (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/124/#e1824) and you can prepare macros (shorthands for pre-prepared commands) and if you know what you are doing you can do pretty much anything (teleportation, healing, lasers, they even had tool they were pretty convinced would let them take up a Shard without any prior Connection). Seemingly this makes them incredible power house, however there are three main downsides Elantrians get weaker away from Elantris. This one is solvable (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/394/#e12895), but it still provides opponents with a good weak spot to use against them, and possibly is greater issue for magical artifacts they would make. They are fueled from Cognitive Realm, not Spiritual one. This is probably their greatest issue, as they need to pipe their investiture where they want to be active, and this supply line is going to be a big weakspot of theirs. IF they got their hands on some other investiture they might be able to use it (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/367/#e11772) but it does not sound easy to do. There is upper limit to number of Elantrians there can be at one tim and the selection process is seemingly random. This means they cannot choose good warriors or scholars for Elantrians, unlike Roshar where Bonds are at least a bit meritocratic and Scadrial where medallions/Hemalurgy can used to give powers to people you want. In summary, Sel with prep time is terrifying, however I think they will end up with a limited sphere of influence due to Dor being in Cognitive making it difficult for them to operate at larger distances from Sel. Now if they could figure out a way to on-demand teleport Dor through Spiritual realm to where they need it to, that would change the situation drastically. Scadrial Scadrial has some of the greatest strengths in flexibility (medallions, hemalurgy), but also some great weaknesses compared to other planets. I will go through the strengths and some weakpoints in those strenghts. Hemalurgy, this is one of the most powerful (and horrifying) tools in Cosmere, if it is in spiritweb people can steal it. However since it only requires Intent, it is a tool that could easily be used by other planets as well, all it would take is a bunch of well placed spies and Hemalurgy is available to everyone. For purpuse of creating an army on Scadrial it is also limited by the fact that Scadrial has the smallest population of major Shardworlds. Finally using more than 3 spikes opens up a person to Shardic influence (and possibly to sufficiently strong Connection attack as well), limiting the number of usable spikes. Medallions are more flexible, but seemingly less powerful cousins of hemalurgy/feruchemy. Outside of special artifacts (BoM) they seem to be limited to 3 powers at most, but they can be easily passed to others, so useful for armed forces. At least some Compounders will be interesting, combat wise steeltwin is very hard to land a hit on, and goldtwin nearly unkillable. Supplemented with well chosen medallions/spikes (I would go with A-pewter or A-chromium and then either twin gold, twin steel based on what is missing), you would have someone who is very hard to hit, can heal greatly and is stronger and more dexterous to boot. The issue is that compounding still takes time, so sufficient pressure on Scadrial could end up with even compounders depleted, and they need a supply of pure metal/precise alloys which can be sabotaged. They are also starting to experiment with fabrials, however so far it seems that they can only directly replicate allomantic/feruchemical powers and nothing else, which again greatly limits them. I think this is something they will never fully overcome, and that is why Scadrial will develop along similar lines to real world science, albeit with some supplement of mechanic metallic arts. The most useful among these would be cadmium grenades and leecher cubes, cadmiun for immobilizing enemy and leecher cubes for quickly removing kinetic investiture (this might be especially good counter against Elantrians). For weaknesses I think Scadrial has three main ones They have no good access to Cognitive Realm, only Shardpool(s). This prohibits any large scale off-world travel until such time they develop FTL spaceships. They have the smallest population, so in protracted war they would lose simply due to attrition Their magic has weakened compared to heights of Lerasium mistborn and even Era 1. This is something they could try to overcome by selective breeding, but it would still be limiting factor, unless they somehow get their hands on a bunch of Lerasium (which is no longer produced, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e6231). So Scadrial has some of the most flexible tools (Hemalurgy) but they can be used by anyone. They can make some of the hardest to kill magic users(Twin steel with Twin gold medallion or vice versa), but they would have trouble in having a lot of them (without resorting to spike factories they would be limited to low thousands, and with them it would heavily depend on how long it takes to heal spike would to soul), and they cannot get them off-world en masse until relatively late. However they also have advantage in having basic long range combat option available to 1/32 of their magic users. Their greatest advantage is that they do not have any centralized power/tool on which their magic would rest, unlike Sel and Roshar. Also If they will be able to breed back mistborn and full feruchemists in large numbers, this would make them definitely stronger, but against most opponent twinsteel+twingold+pewter with proper weapons should be enough so presence of mistborn/full feruchmists would not skew things that much in my opinion. Roshar Roshar has some great strength and in my opinion one/two great weakpoints. Strengths are well known Shardplate, which provides unparalleled physical protection (so far at least). Sharblade, which provides is the second/third strongest melee weapon in Cosmere (after Nightblood and possibly Honorblades). Healing on par (or slighly weaker) than compounded Gold available to any magic user. Very flexible fabrial system. It is definitely not as versatile and strong as AonDor magical artifacts, but is definately much more flexible and stronger than mechanical metallic arts. However all their strength (with exception of Shardblades, and possibly living plate) hinge on their fuel, so Stormlight/Voidlight/Lifelight and combinations of there of. Without it, they have no healing, no fabrials and their magic users cannot use it. There are only 5-6 known sources of light, 3 Bondsmits, 1 bondsmith Honorblade, Highstorm and direct petition to Odium via Song of Prayer. They are heavily reliant on these sources not being disrupted, and so far they have very few perfect gems to store light for later need (altought aluminum plated gems might also work for long term storage). The above creates a large weakspot for Rosharan forces, not as great as the one of Sel with their piping issues, but definitely a weak point. In addition, they are tied to Roshar though their spren, but since this seems to be mainly Connection issue and they have Unchained Bondsmiths, this seems like resolvable issue. One big trump card Roshar has are suppresor fabrials, which could deny magic usage to anyone who is not Fused or Radiant. It is likely that creating them would require some observation of enemy first, but after they would attune them they would be a devastating tool against other planets, until they learned to either replicate them or somehow neutralize them (if possible). Voidbinging is a big unknown so far, as are greater applications of more than half the surges as we have seen mostly Abrasion, Gravitation, Illumination and Transformation, with relatively little of the others. Also while Roshar has population comparable to Sel, spren seem much less numerous making Radiants relatively rare. We will probably never see army of Radiants that is hundreds of thousands strong, so for most of their army they would have to rely on Warform parshendi (or other forms) supplemented by humans equipped with fabrials. Radiants would be probably more along the lines of special forces and heavy troops. Now, who would win? Hard to say, as Elend said with three sides it is no longer a fight but politics, and we have three main sides and in addition at least 1 quite strong support player. Any victory would heavily depend on alliances me thinks.

While they are innately invested, so are Rosharans (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/224/#e6881), and both are less than Nalthians (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3458). Metal is used as conduit to spiritual realm and allomancy is fueled by Preservation (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270/#e7708 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270/#e8028), not to unlock 'innate investiture' of Scadrians. Now all metallic arts are powered by Harmony, although in Feruchemy the role is mainly as facilitator of transfer. Since anti-light is just particular form of anti-investiture, it is quite clear that investiture of other Shards will be susceptible to same attack vector, altought manufacturing process might differ. Also this WoB suggests that anti-investiture will play a large role in future of Cosmere (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14623) which would not make much sense if it was so Shard specific as you suggest. It seems I mixed up WoBs on weakening of allomancy (which satures by Era 3 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10873) together with WoB on frequency of births (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/101/#e882). I was unable to find anything that would suggest that allomancy/feruchemy will continue to become more prevalent however, would you mind linking that WoB? It still happens, but Sazed changed it somehow (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/198/#e4242). We have no other info as far as I know. Radiant on 3rd Oath flew across entire continent just with the light they could carry, that is not too bad. Add in two more oaths + Plate catching leftovers and you have quite efficient system. Scadrians are not restricted by Oaths true, they are instead restricted by their inborn potential (unless we resort to Hemalurgy, but you cannot add more than 2 spikes without opening yourself up to shardic influence). Each subsequent generation of allomancer (and possibly feruchemists as well) is weaker than the one before up until some saturation level. You might breed some to be more powerful (Vin was one such example), but vast majority will be weaker than any Misting seen in Era 1. Dead plate heals, that is why it is sucking up stormlight so fast. In deadplate light is needed to both maintain basic function and to heal damaged sections. Living plate also heals (seen in Jasnah chapter in RoW), and seemingly either does not require stormlight to operate or requires tiny amounts (again Jasnah chapter in RoW). It would make sense to me if Radiant could deny light to plate, as they are in control of it, but we have not seen such yet. So, light =/= light. Stormlight/Voidlight/Towerlight/Lifelight are all gaseous manifastations of investiture, not actual photons of light. Lasers will not help Scadrians at all in this, laser are just ordinary bunch of photons, not pure shardic investiture. If lasers/normal light could work that way then Lightweavers/Truthwatchers can provide Stormlight on demand, which they clearly cannot. I still doubt feasibility of even compounder actually forming perpendicularity, no feats of compounding come even close to that. It would not counter the lashing, it would just make it deplete faster. I guess you could call that countering, but to me counter implies something which negates it, not something that just makes it go away faster. I do not understand what you meant by your second sentence. Why would they have more range? Their allomantic power is still the same, ergo their range is still the same. Again I doubt that actually making a perpendicularity is feasible for compounder outside of theory. Even if they could do it, it would be a trick they could use only a few times before running out of stores, since compounding takes time. No. Sazed when tapping so much f-pewter that per his words he was worried about his skin splitting open and stated he would be unable to walk (WoA), had trouble overpowering one 11 feet tall Koloss. So no rivaling greatshells for them, that is complete fantasy, and also no unmatched strength. While they probably could match shardplate strength, they would be slower and more cumbersome + big target for shardblade. At Mach 0.6 neck muscles are not strong enough to keep your head straight, so yeah it is less than Mach 1. Air friction/compression starts becoming problematic around Mach 1 though, I would estimate, just due to adiabtic heating. Steel speed enhancing steel pushes is your conjecture, one I disagree with. I already wrote this beforehand, but to summarize, Brandon compares F-Steel burn rate to Bendalloy bubble (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/402/#e13501), however people pushing from inside the bubble are not stronger than usual, ergo F-steel would not make your pushes stronger. And the wounds he healed (EDIT: Short of decapitation) are well withing scope of stormlight healing, so not really that insane feats. There is no evidence that TLR could open up perpendicularity, and he was not a splinter, he was a sliver. And being sliver means he had power once, but now no longer has it. He could have stayed Ruin possibly for another millenium, but he could not fill well of ascension that was far beyond his abilities even though he is Fullborn. They are no more broken than Vin was, or Zane. That is not particularly useful statement. I can easily turn it around: 'Since normal person can kill mistborn, or any metalborn without f-gold, Radiant will have even easier time doing so.' It is true, but far too reductive a statement. Well you previously made similarly insulting comments, so I simply took this one at face value. If we stay with Feruchemy and Allomancy, than outside of few compounders most combinations are useless, ordinary Mistborn (without atium) will more often than not lose to Windrunner on 3rd oath in open battle (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/4/#e1432 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35/#e5018 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/4/#e4854), most Twinborns (pretty much all outside of steeltwins, or generally those with F-steel and some with F-gold) are strictly worse combatants than mistborn. Hence most Twinborn are going to lose against even midling Radiant. Simply put, without F-steel they cannot avoid getting hit, and without F-gold they cannot heal. Then you can start giving them guns to even the odds, but they still need a way to either move faster or avoid Radiant's attacks or they are dead. While I did not bring up those Fused and regals you mention, I did bring up both Stormform and Warform parshendi in my reply to Publius. I also went though all Radiants and tried to see how they could use their specific surges against mistborn. You reacted to neither of those. For starters it would be nice if you could stop presenting yourself as this lone voice of dissent trying to shake up complacent thread contributors to action. Second, instead of mention you saw WoB, link it please. That aluminum is (Bondsmithing+Hemalurgy)x9000 speculation is quite baseless, or splitting abilities of A-pewter into different nicrosilminds. That F-steel increases strength of steelpushes due to increase in mass was also quite baseless, and I do not think you actually admitted you were wrong on physics of that, you just stopped talking about it (around page 42. You also made many other mistakes (light (investiture) =\= light (photons), burning=\= allomantic burning, changing names of Surges, aluminum negating investiture when physically burning etc.) so it can be a bit difficult to recognize a valid point. Coppermind is still a secondary source, and since primary sources (books, WoBs on arcanum https://wob.coppermind.net/) can be checked, in case of WoB quite easily it is far better to use that than coppermind.